Soul Sleep yes or no?

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Is there such a thing as "soul sleep"?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 39.1%
  • No

    Votes: 13 56.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .

Davy

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If that were true there would be no passages referring to the dead asleep. But there are.
Those passages are just for folks that don't care enough to study more of God's Word to discover God's Truth, so many ideas in God's Word are often given as 'parables' and 'allegory' which the lazy never get past because of the lack of further Bible study. I'm just telling it like it is.

Matt 13:10-11
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "
Why speakest thou unto them in parables?"

11 He answered and said unto them, "
Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."
KJV



Now those stuck on allegory and metaphor in God's written Word, they can change that if they get off their buns and get into serious Bible study. I mean, folks in the U.S. that have a High School diploma have had 12 years of education, but very little in God's Word.
 

ButterflyJones

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Those passages are just for folks that don't care enough to study more of God's Word to discover God's Truth, so many ideas in God's Word are often given as 'parables' and 'allegory' which the lazy never get past because of the lack of further Bible study. I'm just telling it like it is.

Matt 13:10-11
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "
Why speakest thou unto them in parables?"

11 He answered and said unto them, "
Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."
KJV



Now those stuck on allegory and metaphor in God's written Word, they can change that if they get off their buns and get into serious Bible study. I mean, folks in the U.S. that have a High School diploma have had 12 years of education, but very little in God's Word.
You're rude in your defense of Exegesis. This means you don't know as much as you credit yourself for.

Good day.
 

The Learner

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Doctrine in the Bible is progressive, read Isa 14:1-11, and Isaiah 26.
Isaiah 14:1-11 and 26 shows that those in the grave are alive.



Some Sadducees Try to Trick Jesus

23 That same day some Sadducees came to Jesus. (Sadducees believe that no one will rise from death.) The Sadducees asked Jesus a question. 24 They said, “Teacher, Moses told us that if a married man dies and had no children, his brother must marry the woman. Then they will have children for the dead brother.[a] 25 There were seven brothers among us. The first brother married but died. He had no children. So his brother married the woman. 26 Then the second brother also died. The same thing happened to the third brother and all the other brothers. 27 The woman was the last to die. 28 But all seven men had married her. So when people rise from death, whose wife will she be?”



29 Jesus answered, “You are so wrong! You don’t know what the Scriptures say. And you don’t know anything about God’s power. 30 At the time when people rise from death, there will be no marriage. People will not be married to each other. Everyone will be like the angels in heaven. 31 Surely you have read what God said to you about people rising from death. 32 God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”



33 When the people heard this, they were amazed at Jesus’ teaching.



Which Command Is the Most Important?

34 The Pharisees learned that Jesus had made the Sadducees look so foolish that they stopped trying to argue with him. So the Pharisees had a meeting. 35 Then one of them, an expert in the Law of Moses, asked Jesus a question to test him. 36 He said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?”



37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor[d] the same as you love yourself.’[e] 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.”



Is the Messiah David’s Son or David’s Lord?

41 So while the Pharisees were together, Jesus asked them a question. 42 He said, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”



The Pharisees answered, “The Messiah is the Son of David.”



43 Jesus said to them, “Then why did David call him ‘Lord’? David was speaking by the power of the Spirit. He said,



Show everyone the text that says they already rose from the Dead?



Matthew 27:51-53

Easy-to-Read Version

51 When Jesus died, the curtain in the Temple was torn into two pieces. The tear started at the top and tore all the way to the bottom. Also, the earth shook and rocks were broken. 52 The graves opened, and many of God’s people who had died were raised from death. 53 They came out of the graves. And after Jesus was raised from death, they went into the holy city, and many people saw them.



The O.T. saints did not physically raise from the dead until a few chapters after what he said about them. Thus, he knew they were alive in Sheol.



Isaiah 14:1-11

Easy-to-Read Version

Israel Will Return Home

14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.



A Song About the King of Babylon

4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:



The king was cruel when he ruled us,

but now his rule is finished.

5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;

he takes away their power.

6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.

He never stopped beating them.

He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.

He never stopped hurting people.

7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.

Now the people begin to celebrate.

8 You were an evil king,

and now you are finished.

Even the pine trees are happy.

The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.

They say, “The king chopped us down,

but now the king has fallen,

and he will never stand again.”

9 The place of death is excited

that you are coming.

Sheol is waking the spirits

of all the leaders of the earth for you.

Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”

11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.

The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.

Maggots will be the bed you lie on,

and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.



Me: the text cleary says the dead in the grave are alive like us. They are awake and asleep like we on earth are. They do not know what is going on on the surface of the earth. Ecc 9





Isaiah 26

19 But the Lord says,
“Your people have died,
but they will live again.
The bodies of my people
will rise from death.
Dead people in the ground,
stand and be happy!
The dew covering you is like
the dew sparkling in the light of a new day.
It shows that a new time is coming,
when the earth will give birth to the dead who are in it.”


Me: Thanks for bringing this text to my attention~! It shows clearly that those in the grave are alive like we are.
 

The Learner

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If that were true there would be no passages referring to the dead asleep. But there are.

John 5,Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

What we do find in the Bible is the passage that says, no one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. (John 3:13)

But then there is the passage that tells us when we die the silver cord is broken and the body returns to the dust from which it sprang, and the soul to God who gave it.

It seems to be a matter of which of the different versions one wishes to believe.
If one can hear a voice, they are awake at times.
 

The Learner

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Jeremiah 31
Easy-to-Read Version
The New Israel
31 This is what the Lord said, “At that time I will be the God of all the tribes of Israel. And they will be my people.”

2 This is what the Lord says:
“The people who escaped the enemy’s sword will find comfort in the desert.
Israel will go there looking for rest.”
3 From far away, the Lord
will appear to his people.

The Lord says, “I love you people with a love that continues forever.
That is why I have continued showing you kindness.
4 Israel, my bride, I will rebuild you.
You will be a country again.
You will pick up your tambourines again.
You will dance with all the other people who are having fun.
5 You farmers of Israel will plant vineyards again.
You will plant the vineyards on the hills around the city of Samaria.
The farmers will enjoy the fruit from the vineyards.
6 There will be a time when watchmen[a] shout this message:
‘Come, let’s go up to Zion to worship the Lord our God!’
Even the watchmen in the hill country of Ephraim will shout that message.”

7 This is what the Lord says:
“Be happy and sing for Jacob!
Shout for Israel, the greatest of the nations!
Sing your praises and shout:
‘Lord, save your people![c]
Save those who are left alive from the nation of Israel.’
8 Remember, I will bring Israel
from that country in the north.
I will gather the people of Israel
from the faraway places on earth.
Some of the people will be blind and crippled.
Some of the women will be pregnant and ready to give birth.
But many people will come back.
9 They will come back crying,
but I will lead them and comfort them.
I will lead them by streams of water.
I will lead them on an easy road,
where they will not stumble.
I will lead them in that way because I am Israel’s father.
And Ephraim is my firstborn son.

10 “Nations, listen to this message from the Lord!
Tell this message in the faraway lands by the sea:
‘God scattered the people of Israel,
but he will bring them back together.
And he will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
11 The Lord will bring Jacob back.
He will save his people from those who are stronger.
12 The people of Israel will come to the top of Zion,
and they will shout with joy.
Their faces will shine with happiness about the good things the Lord gives them.
He will give them grain, new wine, olive oil, young sheep and cattle.
They will be like a garden that has plenty of water.
And the people of Israel will not be troubled anymore.
13 Then the young women of Israel will be happy and dance.
And the men, young and old, will join in the dancing.
I will change their sadness into happiness.
I will comfort my people, making them happy instead of sad.
14 I will give the priests plenty of food.
And my people will be filled and satisfied with the good things I give them.”
This message is from the Lord.

15 This is what the Lord says:
“A sound is heard in Ramah—
bitter crying and great sadness.
Rachel[d] cries for her children,
and she refuses to be comforted,
because her children are gone.”

16 But the Lord says, “Stop crying.
Don’t fill your eyes with tears.
You will be rewarded for your work.”
This message is from the Lord.
“The people of Israel will come back from their enemy’s land.
17 Israel, there is hope for you.”
This message is from the Lord.
“Your children will come back to their own land.
18 I have heard Ephraim crying:
‘Lord, you punished me, and I learned my lesson.
I was like a calf that was never trained.
Please stop punishing me,
and I will come back to you.
You really are the Lord my God.
19 I wandered away from you.
But I finally realized how wrong I was.
So I changed my heart and life.
I am ashamed and embarrassed
about the foolish things I did when I was young.’”
20 The Lord says,
“You know that Ephraim is my dear son.
I love that child.
Yes, I often criticized Ephraim,
but I still think about him.
I love him very much,
and I really do want to comfort him.

21 “People of Israel, repair the road signs.
Put up signs that show the way home.
Watch the road.
Remember the road you are leaving on.
Israel, my bride, come home.
Come back to your towns.
22 Unfaithful daughter,
how long will you wander around?

“The Lord has created something new in the land:
A woman surrounding a man.[e]”

23 This is what the Lord All-Powerful, the God of Israel, says: “I will again do good things for the people of Judah. I will bring back those who were taken away as prisoners. At that time the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘May the Lord bless you, good home and holy mountain[f]!’

24 “People in all the towns of Judah will live together in peace. Farmers and those who move around with their flocks will live peacefully together in Judah. 25 I will give rest and strength to those who are weak and tired.”

26 After hearing that, I, Jeremiah, woke up and looked around. My sleep was very pleasant.

27 “The days are coming,” says the Lord, “when I will help the family of Israel and Judah to grow. I will help their children and animals to grow too. It will be like planting and caring for a plant. 28 In the past I watched over Israel and Judah, but I watched for the time to pull them up. I tore them down. I destroyed them. I gave many troubles to them. But now I will watch over them to build them up and make them strong.” This message is from the Lord.

29 “People will not use this saying anymore:

‘The parents ate the sour grapes,
but the children got the sour taste.’[g]

30 No, people will die for their own sins. Those who eat sour grapes will get the sour taste.”

The New Agreement
31 This is what the Lord said, “The time is coming when I will make a new agreement with the family of Israel and with the family of Judah. 32 It will not be like the agreement I made with their ancestors. I made that agreement when I took them by the hand and brought them out of Egypt. I was their master, but they broke that agreement.” This message is from the Lord.

33 “In the future I will make this agreement with the people of Israel.” This message is from the Lord. “I will put my teachings in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 People will not have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the Lord, because all people, from the least important to the most important, will know me.” This message is from the Lord. “I will forgive them for the evil things they did. I will not remember their sins.”

The Lord Will Never Leave Israel
35 He makes the sun shine in the day,
and he makes the moon and the stars shine at night.
He stirs up the sea so that its waves crash on the shore.
The Lord All-Powerful is his name.

This is what the Lord says:
36 “The descendants of Israel will never stop being a nation.
That would happen only if I lost control of the sun, moon, stars, and sea.”

37 The Lord says, “I will never reject the descendants of Israel.
That would happen only if people could measure the sky above,
and learn all the secrets of the earth below.
Only then would I reject them for the bad things they have done.”
This message is from the Lord.

The New Jerusalem
38 This message is from the Lord, “The days are coming when the city of Jerusalem will be rebuilt for the Lord. The whole city will be rebuilt—from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line[h] will stretch from the Corner Gate straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to the place named Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown and all the terraces down to the bottom of Kidron Valley all the way to the corner of Horse Gate will be holy to the Lord. The city of Jerusalem will never again be torn down or destroyed.”

Footnotes
Jeremiah 31:6 watchmen This usually means a guard who stands on the city walls watching for people coming to the city. Here, it probably means the prophets.
Jeremiah 31:6 hill country of Ephraim This was the central part of the land that had been the northern kingdom of Israel.
Jeremiah 31:7 Lord, save your people Or “Lord has saved his people!” This is often a shout of victory.
Jeremiah 31:15 Rachel Jacob’s wife. Here, this means all the women who are crying for their husbands and children who have died in the war with Babylon.
Jeremiah 31:22 A woman surrounding a man The Hebrew text here is hard to understand. It might be part of some saying that was familiar to the people in Jeremiah’s time.
Jeremiah 31:23 good home and holy mountain This was a blessing for the Temple and for Mount Zion, the mountain the Temple was built on.
Jeremiah 31:29 The parents … sour taste This means the children were suffering for things their parents did.
Jeremiah 31:39 measuring line A rope or chain for measuring property lines.
 

The Learner

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Psalm 115
Easy-to-Read Version
115 Lord, you should receive the honor, not us.
The honor belongs to you
because of your faithful love and loyalty.
2 Why should the nations wonder
where our God is?
3 Our God is in heaven,
and he does whatever he wants.
4 The “gods” of those nations are only statues
that some human made from gold and silver.
5 Those statues have mouths, but cannot talk.
They have eyes, but cannot see.
6 They have ears, but cannot hear.
They have noses, but cannot smell.
7 They have hands, but cannot feel.
They have feet, but cannot walk.
No sounds come from their throats.
8 The people who make and trust in those statues
will become like them!

9 People of Israel, trust in the Lord!
He is your strength and shield.
10 Aaron’s family, trust in the Lord!
He is your strength and shield.
11 Followers of the Lord, trust in the Lord!
He is your strength and shield.

12 The Lord remembers us.
He will bless us.
He will bless Israel.
He will bless Aaron’s family.
13 The Lord will bless his followers,
great and small.

14 May the Lord give more and more to you
and to your children.
15 May you receive blessings from the Lord,[a]
who made heaven and earth.
16 Heaven belongs to the Lord,
but he gave the earth to people.
17 The dead don’t praise him.
Those in the grave don’t praise the Lord.
18 But we will praise the Lord
now and forever!

Praise the Lord!
 

The Learner

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Psalm 6
Easy-to-Read Version
To the director: With stringed instruments, on the sheminith. A song of David.
6 Lord, don’t punish me.
Don’t correct me when you are so angry.
2 Lord, be kind to me.
I am sick and weak.
Heal me, Lord!
My bones are shaking.
3 I am trembling all over.
Lord, how long until you heal me?[a]
4 Lord, come back and make me strong again.
Save me because you are so loyal and kind.
5 If I am dead, I cannot sing about you.
Those in the grave don’t praise you.

6 Lord, I am so weak.
I cried to you all night.
My pillow is soaked;
my bed is dripping wet from my tears.
7 My enemies have caused me such sorrow
that my eyes are worn out from crying.

8 Go away, you wicked people,
because the Lord has heard my cries.
9 The Lord has heard my request for mercy.
The Lord has accepted my prayer.

10 All my enemies will be filled with fear and shame.
They will be sorry when disgrace suddenly comes upon them.
 

The Learner

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Philippians 2
Learn From Christ to Be Unselfish
5 In your life together, think the way Christ Jesus thought.

6 He was like God in every way,
but he did not think that his being equal with God was something to use for his own benefit.
7 Instead, he gave up everything, even his place with God.
He accepted the role of a servant, appearing in human form.
During his life as a man,
8 he humbled himself by being fully obedient to God,
even when that caused his death—death on a cross.
9 So God raised him up to the most important place
and gave him the name that is greater than any other name.
10 God did this so that every person will bow down to honor the name of Jesus.
Everyone in heaven, on earth, and under the earth will bow.
11 They will all confess, “Jesus Christ is Lord,”
and this will bring glory to God the Father.


Be the People God Wants You to Be
12 My dear friends, you always obeyed what you were taught. Just as you obeyed when I was with you, it is even more important for you to obey now that I am not there. So you must continue to live in a way that gives meaning to your salvation. Do this with fear and respect for God. 13 Yes, it is God who is working in you. He helps you want to do what pleases him, and he gives you the power to do it.
 

Davy

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You're rude in your defense of Exegesis. This means you don't know as much as you credit yourself for.

Good day.
What I said is like the old saying for some, "If the shoe fits, wear it".

Apostle Paul in Hebrews 5 said it too, and he was much more harsh...

Heb 5:5-14
5 So also Christ glorified not Himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto Him, 'Thou art My Son, to day have I begotten Thee.'

6 As He saith also in another place, 'Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.'

7 Who in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him That was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared;

8 Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered;

9 And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11
Of Whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
KJV
 
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Johann

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Also, the great cloud of witnesses. That cloud must be comprised of humans
Also, the great cloud of witnesses. That cloud must be comprised of humans
A valid point-some here choose to answer-which is good- but the majority are "thread chasers" and beware if you don't "agree" with them!
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Therefore (toigaroun). Triple compound inferential participle (toi, gar, oun) like the German doch denn nun, a conclusion of emphasis, old particle, in N.T. only here and 1Th_4:8. There should be no chapter division here, since Heb_12:1-3 really is the climax in the whole argument about the better promises (10:19-12:3) with a passionate appeal for loyalty to Christ.

Us also (kai hēmeis). We as well as “these all” of Heb_11:39 and all the more because of the “something better” given us in the actual coming of Christ.
Compassed about (echontes perikeimenon). Literally, “having (echontes, present active participle of echō) lying around us” (perikeimenon, present middle participle of perikeimai, old verb as in Luk_17:2).
Cloud of witnesses (nephos marturōn). Old word (Latin nubes), here only in the N.T., for vast mass of clouds. Nephelē is a single cloud. The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud.

The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (Heb_11:2, Heb_11:4, Heb_11:5, Heb_11:33, Heb_11:39) to God’s fulfilling his promises as shown in chapter Heb 11.

Laying aside (apothemenoi). Second aorist-middle (indirect, from ourselves) participle of apotithēmi, old verb as in Col_3:8 (laying off old clothes). The runners ran in the stadium nearly naked.
Every weight (ogkon panta). Old word (kin to enegkein, pherō) like phortos, baros. Here every encumbrance that handicaps like doubt, pride, sloth, anything. No trailing garment to hinder or trip one.

The sin which doth so easily beset us (tēn euperistaton hamartian). “The easily besetting sin.” There are a dozen possible renderings of this double compound verbal from eu, well, and periistēmi, to place around or to stand around (intransitive). The Vulgate has circumstans nos peccatum (the sin standing around us). Probably this is the true idea here, “the easily encompassing (or surrounding) sin.” In this case apostasy from Christ was that sin. In our cases it may be some other sin. The verbal adjective reminds one of the ring of wild beasts in the jungle that encircle the camp-fire at night each ready to pounce upon a careless victim.
Let us run (trechōmen). Present active volitive subjunctive of trechō, “let us keep on running.”

With patience (di' hupomonēs). Not with impatience, doubt, or despair.
The race that is set before us (ton prokeimenon hēmin agōna). Note the article and the present middle participle of prokeimai, old compound (already in Heb_6:18, and also in Heb_12:2). Dative case (hēmin) of personal interest.
Robertson

Cloud--
12:1 A common way in Greek literature of metaphorically referring to a group of people. The models of faith in ch. 11 are included in this group (11:2, 39).
The footrace was one of the longest and most significant events in the Greek games (compare Phil 1:30; Col 2:1; 1 Thess 2:2; Heb 6:12; 2 Tim 4:7).
Circuses and Games DNTB
12:2 Although Heb 11 included a long list of worthy exemplars, Jesus is ultimately the focus. In light of the footrace metaphor, the idea here might be that Jesus, who pioneered the course of the faith, awaits believers at the finish line.

John D. Barry et al., Faithlife Study Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012, 2016), Heb 12:1–2.

Heb_12:1. Τοιγαροῦν καὶ ἡμεῖς.… “Wherefore, as we have so great a cloud of witnesses encompassing us, let us likewise lay aside every encumbrance and sin that clings so close and run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to the leader and perfecter of faith, even Jesus, who for the joy set before him endured a cross despising shame and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” τοιγαροῦν, “wherefore then” more formal and emphatic than the usual, διὰ τοῦτο, διὸ, ὅθεν, οὖν. καὶ ἡμεῖς, we in our turn, we as well as they, and with the added advantage of having so many testimonies to the good results of faith. νέφος used frequently in Homer and elsewhere, as “nubes” in Latin and “cloud” in English to suggest a vast multitude.

μαρτύρων, “witnesses,” persons who by their actions have testified to the worth of faith. The cloud of witnesses are those named and suggested in chap. 11; persons whose lives witnessed to the work and triumph of faith, and whose faith was witnessed to by Scripture, cf. Heb_11:2; Heb_11:4-5. This cloud is περικείμενον, because, as the writer has just shown, look where they will into their history his Hebrew readers see such examples of faith.

It is impossible to take μάρτυρες as equivalent to θεαταί. If the idea of “spectator” is present at all, which is very doubtful, it is only introduced by the words τρέχωμεν … ἀγῶνα. The idea is not that they are running in presence of spectators and must therefore run well; but that their people’s history being filled with examples of much-enduring but triumphant faith, they also must approve their lineage by showing a like persistence of faith. ὄγκον ἀποθέμενοι πάντα, ὄγκος, a mass or weight or burden (= φόρτος), hence a swelling or superfluous flesh [cf. especially Longinus, iii. 9, κακοὶ δὲ ὄγκοι καὶ ἐπὶ σωμάτων καὶ λόγων. and from Hippocrates in Wetstein, καὶ γὰρ δρόμοι ταχεῖς, καὶ γυμνάσια τοιαῦτα, σαρκῶν ὄγκον καθαίρει.]

The allusion therefore is to the training preparatory to a race by which an encumbering superfluity of flesh is reduced. The Christian runner must rid himself even of innocent things which might retard him. And all that does not help, hinders. It is by running he learns what these things are. So long as he stands he does not feel that they are burdensome and hampering. καὶ f1τὴν εὐπερίστατον ἁμαρτίαν. Of the difficult word εὐπερ.

Chrysostom gives two interpretations; “which is easily avoided,” and “which easily encompasses or surrounds us”. In the sense of “avoid” the verb περιϊστάσθαι occurs in 2Ti_2:16 and Tit_3:9, but it is scarcely credible that in the present context such an epithet could be applied to sin. The second interpretation has been generally accepted [“circumstans nos peccatum” (Vulg.); “qui nous enveloppe si aisément”; “die Sünde, die immer zur Hand ist” (Weizsäcker)]. This meaning suits the context and the action enjoined in ἀποθέμενοι, suggesting, as it does, the trailing garment that encumbers the runner. The article τὴν does not point to some particular sin, but to that which characterises all sin, the tenacity with which it clings to a man. We might suppose from the word itself that it alluded to sin as an enemy encompassing from well-chosen points of vantage, but this does not suit the figure of the race nor the ἀποθέμενοι.


[Porphyry, de Abstin., says γυμνοὶ δὲ καὶ ἀχίτωνες ἐπὶ τὸ στάδιον ἀναβαίνωμεν ἐπὶ τὰ τῆς ψυχῆς Ὀλύμπια ἀγωνισόμενοι. “Ut cursores vestimenta non solum abjiciunt, nudique currunt, verum etiam crebris exercitationibus, ne corpus nimis obesum et ineptum reddatur, efficiunt: ita et vos omnia impedimenta in studio virtutis, et tarditatem vestram crebris meditationibus vincite” (Wetstein).] διʼ ὑπομονῆς, after the negative preparation comes the positive demand for endurance, cf. Heb_10:36. τρέχωμεν … ἀγῶνα, as in Herod, viii. 102, πολλοὺς ἀγῶνας δραμέονται οἱ Ἕλληνες. προκείμενον, [frequent with ἀγών, as in Arrian’s Epict., iii. 25, οὐ γὰρ ὑπὲρ πάλης καὶ παγκρατίου ὁ ἀγὼν πρόκειται. Cf. Orestes of Eurip., 845, and Ignatius to Eph., c. 17. τοῦ προκειμένου ζῆν.] appointed, lying before us as our destined trial.

This let us run, not waiting for a pleasanter, easier course, but accepting that which is appointed and recognising the difficulties as constituent parts of the race. Success depends on the condition attached ἀφορῶντες … Ἰησοῦν, fixing our gaze on Him who sets us the example (ἀρχηγὸν) of faith, and exhibits it in its perfect form (τελειωτής), who leads us in faith and in whom faith finds its perfect embodiment. ἀρχηγός properly means one to whom anything owes its origin (cf. Heb_2:10), but here it rather indicates one who takes the lead or sets the example most worth following. Jesus is the ἀρχηγὸς τῆς πίστεως because he is its τελειωτής. In Him alone do we see absolute dependence on God, implicit trust, what it is, what it costs, and what it results in.
 

BarneyFife

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Success depends on the condition attached ἀφορῶντες … Ἰησοῦν, fixing our gaze on Him who sets us the example (ἀρχηγὸν) of faith, and exhibits it in its perfect form (τελειωτής), who leads us in faith and in whom faith finds its perfect embodiment.
Ooh, I really like that!
 

Johann

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Hey bro!

There are actually multiple passages contained in the OT that refute this doctrine as well, ones I never see discussed in the usual debates on the subject. But I'm not up for doing a full 1,000 page write up on it atm. If I remember, I'll direct your attention to it when I eventually do a piece on it. In the meantime, if you want the opposition's argument on this one, you have come to the right place. Christianity Board experienced a large influx of Unitarians and Jehovahs Witnesses awhile back, and they are still in force now. Added to the SDAs, I'd say there at least 12-15 proponents of soul sleep here right now, and others who have posted leanings in that direction.

So if you wanted discussion you will likely get it here, in spite of the fact that there have been numerous threads on the subject already in the last three months or so.

God bless, and glad to see you're still studying the word of God.
- H
I would like to see that essay brother-
Johann
 
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Johann

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There is a false teaching known as "soul sleep" that says that souls of the dead are in a state of unconscious existence. They claim that after a long period, God will awaken the soul. This is not the teaching of Scripture. In the NT "sleep" in the context of death applies only to the body and never to the soul.

Hiebert adds that…

The theory of soul sleep is inconsistent with Paul's assertion in 1Th 5:10 (see note) that God's purpose for us is that whether we live or die we should live together with Christ. (Ibid)

MacArthur explains why "soul sleep" is a false teaching writing that…

In 2Corinthians 5:8 Paul wrote that he “prefer[red] rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord,” while in Php 1:23 (note) he expressed his “desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better.”

Those statements teach that believers go consciously into the Lord’s presence at death, for how could unconsciousness be “very much better” than conscious communion with Jesus Christ in this life?

Jesus promised the repentant thief on the cross, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise [heaven; cf. 2 Cor. 12:4; Re 2:7{note}]” (Luke 23:43).

Moses’ and Elijah’s souls were not asleep, since they appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration (Mt 17:3), nor are those of the Tribulation martyrs in Revelation 6:9, 10, 11 (see notes Re 6:9; 10; 11), who will be awake and able to speak to God. After death the redeemed go consciously into the presence of the Lord, while the unsaved go into conscious punishment (Ed note: Read this passage about a "certain rich man" and a "poor man named Lazarus" who both die and end up in different "compartments" of Hades, the temporary abode of the dead. - Lk 16:19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31). (MacArthur, John: 1 & 2 Thessalonians. Moody Press)

Vincent comments that…

in Christian speech and thought, as the doctrine of the resurrection (1Corinthians 15:1-58) struck its roots deeper, the word dead, with its hopeless finality, gave place to the more gracious and hopeful word sleep. The pagan burying-place carried in its name no suggestion of hope or comfort. It was a burying-place, a hiding-place, a monumentum, a mere memorial of something gone; a columbarium, or dove-cot, with its little pigeon-holes for cinerary urns; but the Christian thought of death as sleep, brought with it into Christian speech the kindred thought of a chamber of rest, and embodied it in the word cemetery (koimeterion) — the place to lie down to sleep.

The Christian's unique hope that is not shared by non-believers is the Blessed Hope (Titus 2:13-note cp 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Pe 1:13-note) of the return of Christ for His own just as He had promised (John 14:2-3). That will be the great resurrection day when living believers will be reunited with all their loved ones who have died. Believers then and now have this promise by the word of the Lord (1Th 4:15-note) Himself Who declared to His disciples…

Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going." (John 14:1-4)
 

BarneyFife

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My goodness! Barney!
How are you?
I didn't get notified of your reply, Brother J.

I'm doing great, and I'm just as happy to see you as you seem to be to see me! (I'm not sure that's an actual sentence but I think you know what I mean). :D
 
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Johann

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I didn't get notified of your reply, Brother J.

I'm doing great, and I'm just as happy to see you as you seem to be to see me! (I'm not sure that's an actual sentence but I think you know what I mean). :D
No props, I also don't get notifications and it would seem this Forum is not so "sprightly" as it used to be?
Anyway, good to hear from you brother.
Johann.
 

Hobie

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But in the Old Testament we find...
But in the Old Testament we find... and on and on and on, such are those who heed Judaism and NOT The New Testament...


But in The New Testament we find...


Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV


That means that "spirit" of Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 is NOT just some idea of a spirit life force that's even in plants and animals. By the above Jesus showed the SOUL is NOT part of our flesh body. And that MUST mean the soul, with that "spirit", goes back to God at flesh death. And it does per Apostle Paul below, with conscious awareness...


2 Cor 5:1-8
5
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5
Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV
The New Testament holds up the Old Testament, and Christ was clear on this. Christ represented death as a sleep saying Lazarus was asleep in death. Lazarus would have remained unconscious sleeping in the grave until the resurrection had he not been raised by Christ.

John 11:11-14
11Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

At death Stephen commended his spirit to God. His spirit being departed he fell asleep becoming unconscious.

Acts 7:59-60
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Christ slept in death being entirely unconscious in death.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

When Christ died He commended His spirit into the hands of His Father and gave ghost. But Christ did not ascend to the Father as a ghost or a spirit, otherwise after His resurrection He would not have said 'I am not yet ascended to my Father.' Christ remained dead in the grave unconscious until He arose again.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

David did not ascend to heaven at death but is dead and buried.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,


God can reverse the death process by creating new bodies and renewing the spirit or breath in them, and the Bible describes this at the Resurrection.
 
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