Soul Sleep yes or no?

[Aunty Jane]

You have Jesus mentioning lazarus and the rich man because the pharisees, because of their exposure to other beliefs believed in an immortal soul.

Yes...the Jews had no belief in an immortal soul from their scripture...the Pharisees borrowed it from the pagan Greeks.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

 

[ButterflyJones]

What Does the Bible Say About the "Immortal Soul"?

Many people think the Bible says we have an immortal soul destined, at death, for heaven, hell or purgatory. What does the Bible say?

www.ucg.org

The Hebrew Scriptures state plainly that, rather than possess immortality, the soul can and does die. "The soul [nephesh] who sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20).

The Old Testament describes the dead as going to sheol, translated into English as "hell," "pit" or "grave." Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 describes sheol as a place of unconsciousness: "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished ..."

King David laments that death extinguishes a relationship with God. "For in death there is no remembrance of You; in the grave who will give You thanks?" (Psalm 6:5).

The immortal-soul concept isn't part of the Old Testament, but it began to make inroads into Jewish thought as Jews came in contact with Greek culture. In the first century the Jewish philosopher Philo taught a Platonic concept: "... The death of a man is the separation of his soul from his body ..." (The Works of Philo, translated by C.D. Yonge, 1993, p. 37). Philo followed the Hellenistic view that the soul is freed upon death to an everlasting life of virtue or evil.

 

[Wrangler]

The Hebrew Scriptures state plainly that, rather than possess immortality, the soul can and does die. ... The immortal-soul concept isn't part of the Old Testament

So then, we must differentiate between the mortal and immortal soul. I don't agree with your premise. The immortal soul concept is there in Genesis, the very reason we were not to eat the forbidden fruit.

Anyway, I'm a proponent of soul sleep but do admit there are verses to support both sides.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So then, we must differentiate between the mortal and immortal soul.

There is not a single mention of an immortal soul in any part of the Bible. The soul is mortal and it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)
This ties in with a "soul" is as defined in scripture.....it is a living, breathing creature....animals are "souls" too and they die the same death that we do....
"For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return." (Eccl 3:19-20)

I don't agree with your premise. The immortal soul concept is there in Genesis, the very reason we were not to eat the forbidden fruit.

Actually it isn't....Genesis holds out the prospect of everlasting life, which is not immortality. Immortals cannot die, whereas human beings as well as those of the animal kingdom are completley mortal...i.e. subject to death) mortals cannot live without the external means od survival, such as food water and oxygen, which were all abundantly supplied by the Creator so that everlasting life (not immortality) was possible. Only those granted to partake of "the tree of life", could "live forever". (Gen 3:22-24)

"The tree of life" was there in the garden to guarantee that life would not end....but the humans had to be obedient to God in order to keep living. Death was a penalty for disobedience....if the humans had simply obeyed their God, they would never have died.

Anyway, I'm a proponent of soul sleep but do admit there are verses to support both sides.

I cannot find any scripture that validates immortality of the soul.

 

[Wrangler]

There is not a single mention of an immortal soul in any part of the Bible.

I already explained how this is not true coming right out of the gate in Genesis. Is it your position that Christ will one day die? That we, once resurrected as Christ was resurrected, will experience a "Second Death" that is not at the Day of Judgment?

 

[Wrangler]

Genesis holds out the prospect of everlasting life, which is not immortality.

Parsing synonyms.

 

[Wrangler]

I cannot find any scripture that validates immortality of the soul.

But you do find verses that validate everlasting life?

 

[ButterflyJones]

There is not a single mention of an immortal soul in any part of the Bible. The soul is mortal and it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)
This ties in with a "soul" is as defined in scripture.....it is a living, breathing creature....animals are "souls" too and they die the same death that we do....
"For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return." (Eccl 3:19-20)

Actually it isn't....Genesis holds out the prospect of everlasting life, which is not immortality. Immortals cannot die, whereas human beings as well as those of the animal kingdom are completley mortal...i.e. subject to death) mortals cannot live without the external means od survival, such as food water and oxygen, which were all abundantly supplied by the Creator so that everlasting life (not immortality) was possible. Only those granted to partake of "the tree of life", could "live forever". (Gen 3:22-24)

"The tree of life" was there in the garden to guarantee that life would not end....but the humans had to be obedient to God in order to keep living. Death was a penalty for disobedience....if the humans had simply obeyed their God, they would never have died.

I cannot find any scripture that validates immortality of the soul.

You then don't believe we have eternal life in Christ.

OK

For everyone else who are Christians immortality of the soul is a given in the scriptures. Job 27:3,
As long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils,

Genesis 27:3 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the soul returns to God who gave it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@ButterflyJones. You are mistaking the “spirit” for the “soul”...the two are vastly different. This has been the case ever since immortality of the soul was first adopted from paganism. The soul is 100% mortal....that is, the soul can die. (Ezekiel 18:4)
Jesus was a soul...a living breathing human, subject to death as was Adam. Adam was not created to die but to live forever in his mortal flesh. All he had to do to remain living was to obey his Creator. So everlasting life (which is not immortality) was conditional from day one. Obey and live....disobey and die....it wasn’t rocket science.

In order to give his children (both angels and humans) free will, God had to be able to control what they did with that very generous gift....without which the situation in Eden could never have taken place.

Satan was the first one to abuse his free will and he tempted the humans to abuse theirs so that he could gain their worship for himself (2 Cor 4:4)....and here we are, in the final part of the most important object lesson we humans will ever have to experience, and by extension the angels too will have leaned the same lessons.
It has always been about learning to drive free will so that the exercise of it will not impact negatively on others......can you see why God has allowed us to experience these things, even though they are painful?

The lessons learned will carry over into all eternity so that this will never have to happen again. Free will can then become the precious gift it was mean to be....not the curse it became with selfish abuse.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I already explained how this is not true coming right out of the gate in Genesis. Is it your position that Christ will one day die? That we, once resurrected as Christ was resurrected, will experience a "Second Death" that is not at the Day of Judgment?

No that is not my position at all. Christ was not an immortal before his earthly mission, otherwise he could not have offered his mortal life for ours. Immortals cannot die.
He was resurrected as a spirit, (1 Pet 3:18) the form he had before becoming the man Jesus Christ. Like the other angelic creatures, the firstborn Son was not immortal, but earned that faculty by completing his mission successfully. (Phil 2:5-11) He was exalted and given a new name....a reward for a difficult mission completed so faithfully.

Parsing synonyms.

They are not synonyms. Who told you they were? The Jews did not think them to be synonymous in any of their scripture. One is “everlasting life” which has a beginning....”immortality” means one has always existed and will always exist because death is impossible. Only God was immortal in the first place....all other life came from him...it had a beginning. Jehovah brought his son into existence.....he is the “firstborn of ALL creation”, which would be meaningless if he too had always existed. (Col 1:15)

But you do find verses that validate everlasting life?

Absolutely, “everlasting life” for all those who are not granted “the power of an indestructible life” which includes Jesus and his elect, having proven faithful to their death in upholding Jehovah’s universal sovereignty through difficult trials. These alone are given that privilege...becoming spirit creatures in heaven to take the human race back to the Edenic conditions that God purposed for us in the beginning.....

What God starts, he finishes. (Isa 55:11)

 

[Wrangler]

I already explained how this is not true coming right out of the gate in Genesis. Is it your position that Christ will one day die? That we, once resurrected as Christ was resurrected, will experience a "Second Death" that is not at the Day of Judgment?

No that is not my position at all. Christ was not an immortal before his earthly mission, otherwise he could not have offered his mortal life for ours.

Hmmm. I'm asking what you position is and your replying that it is not your position.

We seem to be having a tense obstacle to communication and I don't know why. "Will one day" is referring to the future. 'Was before' refers to the past.

It is inaccurate to say Joe Biden was not President since he eventually did become president. It is subterfuge to say one was not X before doing or becoming X. To say I was not married before I went to the alter is misleading since I am married. Even if my wife dies, it would not mean that I was not married.

I am not denying that Jesus did die in the past. But that is not the question. The question is about the future. Is it your position that Christ will one day die (in the future)?

 

[ButterflyJones]

No that is not my position at all. Christ was not an immortal before his earthly mission, otherwise he could not have offered his mortal life for ours. Immortals cannot die.
He was resurrected as a spirit, (1 Pet 3:18) the form he had before becoming the man Jesus Christ. Like the other angelic creatures, the firstborn Son was not immortal, but earned that faculty by completing his mission successfully. (Phil 2:5-11) He was exalted and given a new name....a reward for a difficult mission completed so faithfully.

They are not synonyms. Who told you they were? The Jews did not think them to be synonymous in any of their scripture. One is “everlasting life” which has a beginning....”immortality” means one has always existed and will always exist because death is impossible. Only God was immortal in the first place....all other life came from him...it had a beginning. Jehovah brought his son into existence.....he is the “firstborn of ALL creation”, which would be meaningless if he too had always existed. (Col 1:15)

Absolutely, “everlasting life” for all those who are not grated “the power of an indestructible life” which includes Jesus and his elect, having proven faithful to their death in upholding Jehovah’s universal sovereignty through difficult trials. These alone are given that privilege...becoming spirit creatures in heaven to take the human race back to the Edenic conditions that God purposed for us in the beginning.....

What God starts, he finishes. (Isa 55:11)

Your theology is why JW doctrine will forever conflict with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Your theology is why JW doctrine will forever conflict with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

JW theology is entirely biblical....but you are free to believe whatever your heart desires to accept as truth.

Just do me one favor and quote me one verse that uses the words "immortal soul"......just one will do....

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am not denying that Jesus did die in the past. But that is not the question. The question is about the future. Is it your position that Christ will one day die (in the future)?

I am very confused by that question.....why on earth would I say that Christ attained immortality once he completed his earthly mission and then say that he would die at some time in the future? An immortal cannot die.
Where on earth does a question like that even come from????

 

[ButterflyJones]

JW theology is entirely biblical....but you are free to believe whatever your heart desires to accept as truth.

Just do me one favor and quote me one verse that uses the words "immortal soul"......just one will do....

Those precise words, immortal soul, do not appear in the Bible.

However Christians are given eternal life. What do you think lives eternally?


Show me the scripture where we are to read Jesus was just a man who was bestowed with special abilities by God to perform miracles in his name.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Those precise words, immortal soul, do not appear in the Bible.

However Christians are given eternal life. What do you think lives eternally?

You too are confusing everlasting life with immortality....these are two entirely different modes of life.

One who is granted "everlasting life" is not an immortal, because God can still eliminate someone who disobeys him, from existence. That is what the "lake of fire" is for....this lake is there as a receptacle forever, for any who abuse their free will in the future.....the lesson is complete and the devil has had ample opportunity to prove that the accusations he made in Eden were true.....humans who disobey God, DIE. They do not continue to live in another realm in another form......God's word has never portrayed such an idea.

And "the knowledge of good and evil" has not ever benefited mankind in any way.

Show me the scripture where we are to read Jesus was just a man who was bestowed with special abilities by God to perform miracles in his name.

Since I never said "Jesus was just an man with special abilities", I would find that difficult.

 

[Wrangler]

They are not synonyms. Who told you they were?

Merriam Webster.

 

[Wrangler]

I am very confused by that question.....why on earth would I say that Christ attained immortality once he completed his earthly mission and then say that he would die at some time in the future? An immortal cannot die.
Where on earth does a question like that even come from????

The question - Is it your position that Christ will one day die (in the future) - comes from recognizing 2 facts you are in denial of.

1. Immortal and everlasting life are synonyms. See your favorite lexicon.
2. Scripture teaches that if elected by God one becomes (in the future) immortal.

Honestly, it is such dichotomy, such rigidness of word usage (requiring lengthy dissertations) and bizarre opposition to celebrating birthdays that the JW cult mentality is evident. In your view, it is perfectly OK to show love to someone by celebrating milestones in their life 364 days a year but somehow becomes a sin if done on culturally acceptable days, such as birthday, Father's Day, Christmas, etc.

You just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear. It so much reminds one of the brain washed victims of The Manchurian Candidate who launched into a mantra when triggered.

The truth is simple. JW labor intellectually and the irony is that you think you have discovered the truth, freedom and grace.


None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 

[ButterflyJones]

You too are confusing everlasting life with immortality....these are two entirely different modes of life.

One who is granted "everlasting life" is not an immortal, because God can still eliminate someone who disobeys him, from existence. That is what the "lake of fire" is for....this lake is there as a receptacle forever, for any who abuse their free will in the future.....the lesson is complete and the devil has had ample opportunity to prove that the accusations he made in Eden were true.....humans who disobey God, DIE. They do not continue to live in another realm in another form......God's word has never portrayed such an idea.

And "the knowledge of good and evil" has not ever benefited mankind in any way.

Since I never said "Jesus was just an man with special abilities", I would find that difficult.

I'm not a Jehovah Witness. I understand your confusion about the eternal. JW's also don't believe Jesus resurrected.

We have nothing in common, Christians and JW's.