BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
So you'd rather alive in the grave than soul sleep. Um, OK.
Soul Sleep yes or no?
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Hobie
Well-Known Member
As we say today, on the brink of death or close to it.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
David wrote the majority of the songs,Psalms.
Who Actually Wrote Psalms?
Psalms is probably one of the most easily recognizable books of the Bible. We hear it quoted in songs, sermons, and even in pop culture. But just who wrote and put together this beautiful collection of poems? Was it only one person, David, or where there many authors?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It amazes me that "soul sleep" has such a low acceptance rate considering the fact that scripture never speaks of an" immortal soul" that continues to live on in a spiritual form after the death of the body......so why does it have the highest rate of support.
The soul is not something that is separate from the body.....the soul is the living breathing creature. Adam was not "given" a "soul" but "became" one when God started him breathing. (Gen 2:16-1; Gen 3:19) So essentially, a soul is "a breather"....all air breathing creatures are called "souls" in Genesis. All breathe the same air as we do, and all die the same death...breathing stops and the soul dies. (Eccl 3:19-20; Ezek 18:4) Souls are not immortal.
The devil has really fooled everyone who fell for ...."you surely will not die".....that first lie he told in Eden.
He found a way to make God a liar...by promoting the idea that death is not really death...that the "soul" goes on living somewhere else. The Bible never said that. It states that death is the opposite of life. "Life or death" is what God held out to his people (Deut 30:19-20).....not "heaven or hell". Nowhere are those terms used as opposite destinations fir humans. Nowhere will you find the words "immortal" and "soul" side by side in any passage of scripture.
Why is this lie so widely accepted? Because the devil knows that we are designed to live forever.....death was never supposed to happen, so people like the idea that we don't really die...we can go on living somewhere else without them....looking down at all the woes that their loved ones are experiencing on the earth, and not being able to do a thing about it. How does that make heaven a happy place? Conversely, if they were not worshippers of God, then they are likely burning in hell forever....another nice thought, isn't it?....NOT.
The soul is not something that is separate from the body.....the soul is the living breathing creature. Adam was not "given" a "soul" but "became" one when God started him breathing. (Gen 2:16-1; Gen 3:19) So essentially, a soul is "a breather"....all air breathing creatures are called "souls" in Genesis. All breathe the same air as we do, and all die the same death...breathing stops and the soul dies. (Eccl 3:19-20; Ezek 18:4) Souls are not immortal.
The devil has really fooled everyone who fell for ...."you surely will not die".....that first lie he told in Eden.
He found a way to make God a liar...by promoting the idea that death is not really death...that the "soul" goes on living somewhere else. The Bible never said that. It states that death is the opposite of life. "Life or death" is what God held out to his people (Deut 30:19-20).....not "heaven or hell". Nowhere are those terms used as opposite destinations fir humans. Nowhere will you find the words "immortal" and "soul" side by side in any passage of scripture.
Why is this lie so widely accepted? Because the devil knows that we are designed to live forever.....death was never supposed to happen, so people like the idea that we don't really die...we can go on living somewhere else without them....looking down at all the woes that their loved ones are experiencing on the earth, and not being able to do a thing about it. How does that make heaven a happy place? Conversely, if they were not worshippers of God, then they are likely burning in hell forever....another nice thought, isn't it?....NOT.
Bill Judson
Member
You should also include the account of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus tells us about in Luke 16:19-31
Jesus said "there was a certain rich man", and "there was a certain beggar named Lazarus" so this is an actual account of the experiences of two actual people that demonstrates that when we die and leave out bodies we are conscience, awake, and fully aware because our souls remain alive for all eternity.
And as the events Jesus tells us of, we will either being in a good place, or a place of torment.
Bill Judson
Member
Because it's what Jesus teaches us in Luke 16:19-31, and it's what the Lord teaches thru Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:8
Only cults teach soul sleep since they don't go by what Jesus teaches us.
When you see soul sleep being taught by any group, you can expect other error to be taught as well.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
No, he does not. That is a parable among many....and just because one of the parties has a common name doesn't make it literal.
The rich man represented the Pharisees, who, until the coming of the Messiah were the religious leaders of God's people, yet Jesus did not have a good word to say about them.....he actually condemned them to "gehenna" (Matt 23:33).....which is not "hell" or "eternal damnation" but eternal death. God will not remember them in the resurrection, which is what Jews believed in.
Martha, the sister of Lazarus whom Jesus resurrected, stated what she believed as the destiny of her brother....
"Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (John 11:21-23)
What was "the resurrection on the last day" to a Jew? NOT immortality of the soul.
Resurrections were performed by Jesus and his apostles....all were a restoration of human life, not a continuation of spiritual life somewhere else.
Where did Jesus say Lazarus was?
John 11:11-14...
"After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died".
Lazarus was "sleeping".....he had not gone anywhere, and there was no mention of him being in heaven, or he would have wondered why Jesus brought him back to this life, only to die again later from some other cause.
The beggar in Jesus' parable pictured the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" to whom Jesus was sent.....and whom the Pharisees neglected and treated as unworthy of their time and attention. They were spiritually impoverished. Both "died" to their former place and actually changed places.
The "bosom of Abraham" was a position of favor with God...the Pharisees lost it, and the beggar (Christ's disciples) gained it.
How can 'heaven and hell' be in speaking distance of one another? And how can a drop of water on a man's finger cool anyone in a blazing fire? Taken literally, it makes no scriptural sense to a people who had no belief in immortal souls. That notion was adopted later by the Jews and also by Christendom due to pagan Greek influence, not the Bible.
Wrong again....do you know that there are two resurrections spoken about in the Bible? The "first resurrection" is for Christ's anointed disciples who were promised a role in heaven...ruling with him as "kings and priests"...these alone were promised a heavenly resurrection, but not until Christ's return.
Paul wrote...
"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."
Rev 20:6 identifies these ones as "kings and priests" who will reign with Christ for 1,000 years.
Kings need subjects, and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties.....these will be the ones who come back in the second or general resurrection, spoken about by Jesus...
John 5:28-29...
"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."
Where does Jesus call these ones from?....their tombs. He cannot raise them from their tombs like he did with Lazarus unless they are all still in them. The dead are not conscious...(Eccl 9:5, 10)...which is why death is likened to a sleep.....one from which only God's spirit can awaken a person....and he has promised to do so. (Acts 24:15)
Only "weeds" teach what Jesus never did....Jesus said that Lazarus was "sleeping"...not that he was somewhere else in spirit form.
He brought him back to this life and reunited him with his family and friends. He did the same to Jairus' daughter, and the widow's son.
These are promised the second resurrection under the Kingdom's rulership....when death would inevitably take them again.
The thief hung alongside Jesus will likewise "be with Jesus in Paradise"....not heaven.
When I see an immortal soul suggested, or that all Christians are going to heaven, I shake my head and wonder if the people who believe that have ever read a Bible in their lives....if all you know is church "theology", then you are in the same category as the Jews were, under the teachings of the Pharisees, which Jesus called "leaven"... teaching that were corrupted by men way back and deeply entrenched. (Luke 12:1; Matt 16:11-12; Matt 15:7-9)
When did God ever say that earth was a training ground for heaven? God designed us humans for everlasting life here on earth...I don't see where he ever changed his mind on that. All God did was organize a class of Jesus' faithful disciples to rule over redeemed mankind with his son...the one he appointed as King of his Kingdom. Jesus and his anointed ones will have many subjects, bringing them back to God's original purpose for the human race....(Rev 21:2-4)...everlasting life in Paradise on Earth.
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I don't see how it could be talking about the Pharisees. The Pharisees knew and believed and held dear all of the teachings of the Torah and prophets.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I don't have a dogmatic position about soul-sleep, but I wanted to bring up a possibility that I haven't seen mentioned.
What if... there was such a thing as soul-sleep, but it was abolished at the cross? Scripture shows that Jesus, after dying, went to Hades and set the captives free. And after His resurrection, He ascended and took His place as Judge of the quick and the dead.
Were the dead imprisoned in a state of sleep? Did Jesus wake them, and lead them out of their captivity to the judgment? It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to interpret the verses that way.
Something I find interesting about this verse... it seems to be a reference to a book that isn't canon - 1st Enoch.
In that book, Enoch is shown the resting place of the dead who are awaiting the end. The dead are sorted into 4 "hollow places." One of those areas is specifically for the martyrs, and their voices cry out to God for justice and vengeance. The book of Hebrews also seems to contain an allusion to the same story...
Heb 12:24 ...the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel...
Abel, of course, is the very first martyr in the Bible.
What if... there was such a thing as soul-sleep, but it was abolished at the cross? Scripture shows that Jesus, after dying, went to Hades and set the captives free. And after His resurrection, He ascended and took His place as Judge of the quick and the dead.
Were the dead imprisoned in a state of sleep? Did Jesus wake them, and lead them out of their captivity to the judgment? It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to interpret the verses that way.
In the very next verse, these souls are told to 'rest a little while' until the rest of the martyrs are gathered.
Something I find interesting about this verse... it seems to be a reference to a book that isn't canon - 1st Enoch.
In that book, Enoch is shown the resting place of the dead who are awaiting the end. The dead are sorted into 4 "hollow places." One of those areas is specifically for the martyrs, and their voices cry out to God for justice and vengeance. The book of Hebrews also seems to contain an allusion to the same story...
Heb 12:24 ...the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel...
Abel, of course, is the very first martyr in the Bible.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
The "rich man" of the parable seems to be a real person - Caiaphas. He has 5 brothers... and Caiaphas had 5 famous brothers. They all served as high priests. Their father - Annas - was the real power behind the priesthood, and both served in that capacity himself and then managed to get all his sons turns at the lead position.
Anyhow, Annas and Caiaphas weren't Pharisees, they were Sadducees. The Bible takes an even dimmer view of Sadducees than Pharisees.
I hold to this as well. Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection. He resurrected and took others who were waiting.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The Scribes and Pharisees were religious frauds and hypocrites…..Jesus said that they were “from their father the devil”, so “believing and holding dear the teachings of the Torah” was their own misinterpretation of it.
Jesus exposed these frauds on every occasion.
Matt 23:2-3, 13, 15, 33..…
”The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say.. . . . “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. . . . “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves. . . . Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?”
What was “Gehenna” to a Jew? NOT the “hell” of Christendom.
The Talmud, which came later, is what the RCC based their catechism on….it was their own version of how scripture and tradition were to be interpreted. Man made doctrines and traditions replaced the truth of God’s word. (Matt 15:7-9) First century Judaism and modern day Christendom are mirror images of one another…..all who promote false worship as the truth, will find no place in God’s kingdom.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If you read the scriptures you will see that the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees all came under one banner with Jesus’ denunciation of them. They all represented those who taught a departure from God’s truth. The most prominent sect who were the subject of Jesus strongest warnings were the Pharisees.
The Sadducees, who included scribes and members of the Sanhedrin and even the two chief priests among their number. They were not concerned about the coming of a Messiah but were interested in maintaining the status quo. They had a working agreement with Rome. They were to handle the affairs of the temple, the priestly services, the collection of the tithes, the contributions made at the temple, the sale of sacrificial animals in the Court of the Gentiles, and the money-changing business operated there. Jesus threw them out as operating like “a den of thieves”.
The Sadducees did not accept all the inspired Hebrew Scriptures or the traditions of the Pharisees…..they believed only in the Law of Moses.….but all were still Jews. Like Christendom, they were broken up into bickering sects, but still saw themselves as God’s people….”sons of Abraham”. Jesus told them otherwise. He was not sent to the incorrigible Jewish leaders, but to “the lost sheep” who were spiritually malnourished and neglected by their shepherds.
The rich man and Lazarus are not hard to identify in Jesus’ parable.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I can see one parallel - that these are both records of traditions. But...
The catechism is NOT based on the Talmuds. The Jews and Catholics view them VERY differently.
The catechism of the Roman Catholic Church is held up as a standard against which doctrines and behavior are judged. They are considered to be coherent, self-consistent, and adherence to them is required.
The Talmuds record arguments and disputes of doctrine, with rabbis taking opposing positions on every issue. Jews aren't required to comply with them; such a thing is impossible since they DO NOT AGREE WITH THEMSELVES. Jews are expected to have a knowledge of important questions, and to take a defensible position on each. Some rabbis are better regarded than others, but where appeals are made to the Talmuds, they are rarely appeals to authority. They are more for the purpose of saying, "look - this belief is ancient - I didn't just make this up myself."
Judaism DOES have authoritative traditions, but they are much later - Maimonides for instance provides extensive commentary on both Scripture and the Talmuds, and attempts to harmonize them with philosophy.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
They are sometimes lumped together in blanket condemnations, but there's a difference between the two groups that is more about position than doctrine.
"If you read the Scriptures" carefully, you'll see that the Jews historically had TWO anointed leaders - one spiritual and one secular, the high priest and the king. The high priest was chief of the priests and Levites, while the king was first among those tribal chieftains and judges.
The Sadducees (aka Zadokites) traced their lineage to Zadok, a high priest of Israel at the time of David. Based on their genealogies, they held the positions of priests - the successors of Aaron and the Levitical priesthood, including the High Priest.
Starting from Exodus 18, Moses ALSO established secular leaders over tribes and clans - a hierarchy of judges. The Pharisees were the successors of these secular positions. They "sat in the seat of Moses" (Matthew 23) as heads of their clans and tribes, and the people were admonished to "obey them" for this reason (but not imitate them).
Believers in Jesus will be in heaven, not the grave. We know from Luke 16 that the righteous are in Abraham's Bosom. After the Resurrection, we are in heaven.
Matthew_27:53
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
Phil 1
19 I’m glad because I know that this will result in my release through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. 20 It is my expectation and hope that I won’t be put to shame in anything. Rather, I hope with daring courage that Christ’s greatness will be seen in my body, now as always, whether I live or die. 21 Because for me, living serves Christ and dying is even better. 22 If I continue to live in this world, I get results from my work. 23 But I don’t know what I prefer. I’m torn between the two because I want to leave this life and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 However, it’s more important for me to stay in this world for your sake. 25 I’m sure of this: I will stay alive and remain with all of you to help your progress and the joy of your faith, 26 and to increase your pride in Christ Jesus through my presence when I visit you again.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Now you are adding your own interpretation to what the Bible says. Does it even suggest what you are proposing?
The Jews were never taught that the soul was separate from the body. In the Bible, a “soul” is a living, breathing creature, NOT a disembodied spirit that departs from the body at death. That idea was adopted from the pagan Greeks, not from the Jewish scriptures.
If there is no spiritual entity that goes somewhere at death, then any suggestion that a person goes on living immediately after death in another realm, is not true. The “soul” is the whole person….the spirit is the animating force that sustains breathing……it is breathing that makes one a “soul”. Christendom has fused the soul and the spirit as if they were one and the same thing…they are not.
For a Jew, their scripture was clear…..at death, the soul ceases to exist except in the infinite memory of the Creator who promised them a resurrection, not immortality. He would remember them, which is why you will see elaborate tombs in a Jewish cemetery with family names and lineage inscribed. Those not buried this way were not considered worthy to be remembered by God in the resurrection. Hence when the bodies of executed criminals were thrown into “Gehenna” (erroneously translated as “hell”) their remains were burned in the city’s rubbish dump as those not worthy of a resurrection….human garbage. Christendom turned that into their “hell of eternal torment”…..but it was simply a symbol of eternal death.
The “souls” seen in this vision presented to John are not disembodied spirits, but represent the precious “lives“ of the martyrs (witnesses)…..of those who died for their faith. Their deaths would be avenged by God, but they had to wait until all of their fellow martyrs were gathered before justice was meted out for them.
Like the blood of Abel where it was said in Gen 4:10….
God said to Cain….
“What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.”……it symbolically “cried out to God” just as these martyrs’ blood needed God’s justice to be done on their behalf. It didn’t mean that their “souls“ were literally under the alter for 2000 years.
There is a reason why the book of Enoch is not included in the inspired canon…..The canon was God’s work, not the work of men. God chose its contents despite whom he used to compile it. The Catholic Church takes credit for the scriptures in their current form, but they included books that clearly did not belong because they contained contradictions. When it was the right time, God sorted that out.
The very last prophet that God sent to his people was the “prophet like Moses”, (Deut 18: 18-19) whom Moses himself was inspired to write about……and whom Peter identifies as Jesus Christ. (Acts 3:22)
We are instructed to “listen to him”.
The Book of Enoch is an apocryphal and pseudepigraphic text. It is falsely ascribed to Enoch. Produced probably sometime during the second and first centuries B.C.E., it is a collection of extravagant and unhistorical Jewish myths, evidently the product of exegetical elaborations on the brief Genesis reference to Enoch.
It was written in an era of Jewish estrangement from their God in the centuries leading up to Messiah’s appearance. God had not sent a prophet to his people since Malachi was sent to them as a last effort to rally his people to obedience, but to no avail. They had hundreds of years to fester in their corruption before Messiah came to them and was horribly mistreated like all the other prophets that they silenced or killed. (Matt 23: 37)
Abel is listed as first among men and women of faith in Hebrews ch11. (Vs 4)
“By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than that of Cain, and through that faith he received the witness that he was righteous, for God approved his gifts, and although he died, he still speaks through his faith.”
His is also the first recorded sacrifice offered to Jehovah.
His death was not really martyrdom in the true sense, but was motivated by his brother’s jealousy. God condemned Cain because his offering was wrongly motivated, but he approved of Abel’s righteousness and he will be among those resurrected to continue his faithful course, once the Kingdom’s rule is established on earth. What amazing details he will relate about his experiences after his birth outside of the garden.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Jesus did not differentiate between them as far as their errors were concerned….he lumped them all together because they were all equally guilty as charged. All had a part to play in Christ’s death and in leading the people to reject their own Messiah.
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