Soul sleep

[ATP]

Can anyone answer post#16.

 

[Phoneman777]

If this is true then how and why?

2 Cor 5:8 - If our spirit is present with the Lord, how are we present if we're not aware of anything. Why be anxious to be present with the Lord if we're not aware.
Phil 1:23 - Why be torn if we're not aware of anything. Why is Christ better by far if we're not aware of his presence.

2 Cor 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Phil 1:23 - I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

What Scripture indicates that when God gathers His Spirit from us at our death that we continue to be "aware" of anything? (Psalm 146:3-4 KJV; Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV)

If we take Philippians 1:23 and 2 Corinthians 5:9 as they are written, is there any demand in either of these passages that the Paul's departure from down here is immediately followed by his appearance with Jesus up there? Sorry, but no, there isn't.

While the dead lie in the grave in a state of insensibility, the living know they are headed there (Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 KJV) and why shouldn't Paul desire to skip that intermediate state between the here and now and the hereafter with Jesus? I do.

 

[Bobby Hall]

If this is true then how and why?

2 Cor 5:8 - If our spirit is present with the Lord, how are we present if we're not aware of anything. Why be anxious to be present with the Lord if we're not aware.
Phil 1:23 - Why be torn if we're not aware of anything. Why is Christ better by far if we're not aware of his presence.

2 Cor 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Phil 1:23 - I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;


Right, he said no man. He didn't say no spirit.

Have it your way. I leave you to your own understandings.

 

[ATP]

Have it your way. I leave you to your own understandings.

I take it that you gave up on post#16. B)

What Scripture indicates that when God gathers His Spirit from us at our death that we continue to be "aware" of anything? (Psalm 146:3-4 KJV; Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV)

Psalm 146:3-4 is talking about nonbelievers. Notice verse 3 says Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.
Psalm 146:3-4 Also notice that it says the spirit is departing the body. The body is returning to the ground, not the spirit.
Eccl 9:5 - is referring to the dead not having knowledge of what is occurring on this old earth after they die. It's simply stating the fact of what death represents on this old earth.
Eccl 9:6 - Notice verse 6. The term 'under the sun' describes this old earth that we live on right now! (Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.)

If we take Philippians 1:23 and 2 Corinthians 5:8 as they are written, is there any demand in either of these passages that the Paul's departure from down here is immediately followed by his appearance with Jesus up there? Sorry, but no, there isn't.

Then why are they confident, anxious, torn and desiring to be in the presence of the Lord?? To be in the presence of something, don't you have to be aware of where you "be"?

While the dead lie in the grave in a state of insensibility, the living know they are headed there (Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 KJV) and why shouldn't Paul desire to skip that intermediate state between the here and now and the hereafter with Jesus? I do.

Eccl 9:5 - is referring to the dead not having knowledge of what is occurring on this old earth after they die. It's simply stating the fact of what death represents on this old earth.
Eccl 9:6 - Notice verse 6. The term 'under the sun' describes this old earth that we live on right now! (Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.)

 

[ATP]

I came across something very interesting today, the definitions of Spirit and definitions of Soul..

Things I noticed..
Spirt#3 DEF - Regards spirit also as soul
Soul#1 DEF - Regards soul also as spiritual part of humans
Soul#2 DEF - Regards soul also as the spiritual part of humans believed to survive death
Soul#3 DEF - Regards soul also as the disembodied spirit
Soul#6 DEF - Regards soul also as spirit or courage

Now if the spirit and soul are separate entities, then why would a dictionary interchange them five times?

That would make Eccl 12:7 spirit and soul returning to God, not just spirit.

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (soul) returns to God who gave it.

Spirit - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spirit?s=t
noun
1. the principle of conscious life; the vital principle in humans, animating the body or mediating between body and soul.
2. the incorporeal part of humans: present in spirit though absent in body.
3. the soul regarded as separating from the body at death.
4. conscious, incorporeal being, as opposed to matter: the world of spirit.
5. a supernatural, incorporeal being, especially one inhabiting a place, object, etc., or having a particular character: evil spirits.
6. a fairy, sprite, or elf.
7.an angel or demon.

Soul - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Soul?s=t
noun
1. the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
2. the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.
3. the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.
4. the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.
5. a human being; person.
6. high-mindedness; noble warmth of feeling, spirit or courage, etc.
7. the animating principle; the essential element or part of something.

 

[Phoneman777]

You seem convinced that the dead are conscious, so I'll accept that, although I think your "under the sun" reasoning is a bit of a stretch. The text also says that their emotions are "perished", but I would venture to guess that you'd say, "Yes, perished down here, but not up there." However, you do realize that the Bible says that Satan and the wicked will not exist, right? Of the devil, "Never shalt thou be anymore," and of the wicked, "...they shall be as though they had not been." So, if the Second Death is "extinction of being", then why shouldn't the First Death be such, as well?

 

[ATP]

although I think your "under the sun" reasoning is a bit of a stretch.

Click here..https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=what+does+under+the+sun+mean

1. on earth; in existence (used in expressions emphasizing the large number of something).

The text also says that their emotions are "perished", but I would venture to guess that you'd say, "Yes, perished down here, but not up there."

The word 'perish' describes nonbelievers. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

However, you do realize that the Bible says that Satan and the wicked will not exist, right? Of the devil, "Never shalt thou be anymore," and of the wicked, "...they shall be as though they had not been." So, if the Second Death is "extinction of being", then why shouldn't the First Death be such, as well?

The punishment you speak of is what the wicked experience while living their Second Life to which Jesus resurrected them. Once they die the Second Death, it won't be possible for them to experience anything because they won't exist.

But what you're describing is temporary, (living their second life when Jesus resurrects them). Scripture says the punishment, shame, the worm, the fire and contempt is eternal and everlasting.

Matt 25:46 - "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Mark 9:43-48 - If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44]b 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46]c 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’

 

[Phoneman777]

Click here..https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=what+does+under+the+sun+mean

1. on earth; in existence (used in expressions emphasizing the large number of something).


The word 'perish' describes nonbelievers. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Your ability to post multiple excerpts from different post #'s in the same reply is very handy. How do you do it?

 

[ATP]

Your ability to post multiple excerpts from different post #'s in the same reply is very handy. How do you do it?

Cut and paste the entire grey area. ;)

 

[ATP]

There is additional evidence that the soul leaves the body at death. Several of the resurrection stories in the Bible describe the soul as returning to the body. This implies, of course, that the soul had left in the first place. First, there is the example of Elijah raising the widow’s son from the dead. “And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived” (1 Kings 17:21-22). This passage specifically says that the child’s soul “came into him again.”

 

[ATP]

I might of changed my beliefs on this, but I have three questions that are still on my mind..

(1.) Since Hades is the grave where believers/nonbelievers are left unconscious, how or why did Jesus preach to the imprisoned spirits in Hades. (1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19After being made alive,d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,)

(2.) Since only the spirit represents "the breath", in 1 Kings 17:22 why is soul translated breath in the NET Bible. (NET - The LORD answered Elijah's prayer; the boy's breath returned to him and he lived. http://biblehub.com/1_kings/17-22.htm

(3.) If soul sleep is truth, then why pen down 2 Cor 5:8 and Phil 1:21-23.

- ATP

 

[Butch5]

I might of changed my beliefs on this, but I have three questions that are still on my mind..

(1.) Since Hades is the grave where believers/nonbelievers are left unconscious, how or why did Jesus preach to the imprisoned spirits in Hades. (1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19After being made alive,d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,)

(2.) Since only the spirit represents "the breath", in 1 Kings 17:22 why is soul translated breath in the NET Bible. (NET - The LORD answered Elijah's prayer; the boy's breath returned to him and he lived. http://biblehub.com/1_kings/17-22.htm

(3.) If soul sleep is truth, then why pen down 2 Cor 5:8 and Phil 1:21-23.

- ATP

1 Peter 3:18-20 is not speaking of Christ preaching while He was dead. The order of events is, He was put to death, made alive, went, proclaimed to the spirits. The proclamation was made after He resurrected. The order I stated is required by the Greek grammar.

2 Cor 5:8 is not talking about a spirit leaving the body. In this section Paul is contrasting two states of being, mortal and immortal. The earthly tent is mortal, the building from God is immortal. He says,

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. (2Co 5:2-3 NKJ)

Notice He says we desire to be clothed with your habitation from heaven, that is the immortal state. But, notice he says that having been clothed we shall not be found naked. Paul doesn't want to be naked. In this passage being naked equates to being without a body, Paul doesn't want to be without a body. The setting here is a letter to the Corinthian, Corinth was right next to Athens which was the center of Greek Philosophy. One of the prevailing schools of thought in Athens was Plato's teaching that man is a spirit trapped in a flesh body. According to Plato man seeks to escape the body and as a spirit ascend into the heavens. This is the very thing that says he doesn't want, he doesn't want to be naked. Rather than being naked he want's to be clothed with his building from God, immortality.

Here is a literal translation of the text. http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/bbi_notes/Paul_Ghost.pdf

there is an audio that explains this text in depth and can be found here number 14, Ghost stories Absent from the Body if you listen to the audio of watch the video it should answer your questions.

Phil. 1:21-23 doesn't support the spirit lives on idea unless one assumes that Paul meant he would immediately be with Christ, however, the passage says no such thing.

I came across something very interesting today, the definitions of Spirit and definitions of Soul..

Things I noticed..
Spirt#3 DEF - Regards spirit also as soul
Soul#1 DEF - Regards soul also as spiritual part of humans
Soul#2 DEF - Regards soul also as the spiritual part of humans believed to survive death
Soul#3 DEF - Regards soul also as the disembodied spirit
Soul#6 DEF - Regards soul also as spirit or courage

Now if the spirit and soul are separate entities, then why would a dictionary interchange them five times?

That would make Eccl 12:7 spirit and soul returning to God, not just spirit.

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (soul) returns to God who gave it.

Spirit - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spirit?s=t
noun
1. the principle of conscious life; the vital principle in humans, animating the body or mediating between body and soul.
2. the incorporeal part of humans: present in spirit though absent in body.
3. the soul regarded as separating from the body at death.
4. conscious, incorporeal being, as opposed to matter: the world of spirit.
5. a supernatural, incorporeal being, especially one inhabiting a place, object, etc., or having a particular character: evil spirits.
6. a fairy, sprite, or elf.
7.an angel or demon.

Soul - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Soul?s=t
noun
1. the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
2. the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.
3. the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.
4. the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.
5. a human being; person.
6. high-mindedness; noble warmth of feeling, spirit or courage, etc.
7. the animating principle; the essential element or part of something.

You have to consider how dictionaries are made. Men read the Scriptures to see how words are used and then come up with a definition that they think fits all of the uses. The problem is this assumes that they properly understand the text. If they misunderstand the text then they can possible come up with incorrect definitions. Rather than rely on a dictionary I suggest looking up the words in the original language and find out what passages they are located in and then read those passages to determine what they mean. The way they are used in the Scriptures is more accurate than someone's thoughts on the word.

If this is true then how and why?

2 Cor 5:8 - If our spirit is present with the Lord, how are we present if we're not aware of anything. Why be anxious to be present with the Lord if we're not aware.
Phil 1:23 - Why be torn if we're not aware of anything. Why is Christ better by far if we're not aware of his presence.

2 Cor 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Phil 1:23 - I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

I addressed these in another post.

 

[ATP]

1 Peter 3:18-20 is not speaking of Christ preaching while He was dead. The order of events is, He was put to death, made alive, went, proclaimed to the spirits. The proclamation was made after He resurrected. The order I stated is required by the Greek grammar.

Yeah, but it says he was preaching too the spirits in hell. Why was he doing this if everyone is unconscious.

 

[Born_Again]

Yeah, but it says he was preaching too the spirits in hell. Why was he doing this if everyone is unconscious.

I think the answer to that lies in defining "Spirits" in this instance. I would think the spirits in hell may not necessarily be the dead but the evil spirits of Satan.

 

[ATP]

I think the answer to that lies in defining "Spirits" in this instance. I would think the spirits in hell may not necessarily be the dead but the evil spirits of Satan.

Notice what's following it, the days of Noah..1 Peter 3:19-20 After being made alive,d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

 

[Born_Again]

Notice what's following it, the days of Noah..1 Peter 3:19-20 After being made alive,d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

See, this is where it would have served me well to look up the whole passage. :) My apologies, ATP.

 

[Butch5]

Yeah, but it says he was preaching too the spirits in hell. Why was he doing this if everyone is unconscious.

Hi ATP,

I believe He was making a proclamation to the evil spirits in Tartarus. The KJV translates three different places as hell and it causes much confusion. There are, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. Hades is the grave, Gehenna is the valley outside of Jerusalem and I submit the lake of fire also. Then there is Tartarus, this is a location where God has reserved the evil angles in chains until the judgment.

YLT 2 Peter 2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved, (2Pe 2:4 YLT)

Several translations translate this word Tartarus as hell and it's confusing because people think all three places, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus are the same place, they are not. Consider Peters words.

4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,
5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,
6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them;
7 and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue,
8 for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing. (2Pe 2:4-8 YLT)

If Peter is giving this in order the it would seem that the "messengers who sinned," the disobedient angles, are those of Noah's day. I believe these are the angles in prison that Jesus went and made the proclamation to.


18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,
20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
21 also to which an antitype doth now save us -- baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone on to heaven -- messengers, and authorities, and powers, having been subjected to him.
(1Pe 3:18-22 YLT)

I believe the bolded is what Jesus proclaimed to these spirits in prison, that all authority had been given to Him.

 

[Angelina]

Notice He says we desire to be clothed with your habitation from heaven, that is the immortal state. But, notice he says that having been clothed we shall not be found naked. Paul doesn't want to be naked. In this passage being naked equates to being without a body, Paul doesn't want to be without a body. The setting here is a letter to the Corinthian, Corinth was right next to Athens which was the center of Greek Philosophy. One of the prevailing schools of thought in Athens was Plato's teaching that man is a spirit trapped in a flesh body. According to Plato man seeks to escape the body and as a spirit ascend into the heavens. This is the very thing that says he doesn't want, he doesn't want to be naked. Rather than being naked he want's to be clothed with his building from God, immortality.

Being naked does not equate to being without a body because God gives us a new body 1 Corinthians 15:37-38, 44-46, 54

Being naked equates to being without Christ's blood covering...it equates to the sins of our un-renewed nature.

Romans 13
11 Besides this, knowing the time, it is already the hour for you to wake up from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over, and the daylight is near, so let us discard the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk with decency, as in the daylight: not in carousing and drunkenness; not in sexual impurity and promiscuity; not in quarreling and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no plans to satisfy the fleshly desires.

Galatians 3
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ like a garment.

Revelation 3
I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

Revelation 16
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

 

[Butch5]

Being naked does not equate to being without a body because God gives us a new body 1 Corinthians 15:37-38, 44-46, 54

Being naked equates to being without Christ's blood covering...it equates to the sins of our un-renewed nature.

Romans 13
11 Besides this, knowing the time, it is already the hour for you to wake up from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over, and the daylight is near, so let us discard the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk with decency, as in the daylight: not in carousing and drunkenness; not in sexual impurity and promiscuity; not in quarreling and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no plans to satisfy the fleshly desires.

Galatians 3
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ like a garment.

Revelation 3
I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

Revelation 16
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

It you follow the context of the argument it's pretty clear that being without a body is being naked. Paul's point in this is that he doesn't want to be as the Greek do.

 

[Angelina]

2 Corinthians 5
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Paul speaks here of desiring to be clothed in our spiritual bodies, agreed...but you cannot be clothed in your spiritual body without putting on the Lord Jesus Christ. Note:

Hebrews 9
....But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

2 Corinthians 5
5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

I believe that soul sleep is not a N/T doctrine. It certainly had it's merits regarding the O/T believers but when Christ died and rose from the dead. Today believers go straight to their heavenly home mostly likely into paradise itself...