Soul sleep

[ATP]

Is 2 Cor 5:8 real proof between death and the first resurrection that when we die, we go to be with the Lord immediately.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

I believe this..

The False Doctrine of 'Soul Sleep'

Word RTF

Question: When we die, does our soul remain in a conscience state or an unconscious sleep awaiting the resurrection? Thanks.

Response: Actually, the "soul" (Greek psyche [ψύχη], Hebrew nephesh [נפש]) is the word the Bible uses to describe the inner person as a combination of the both the material and immaterial parts of the human being (namely, the physical mind and the human spirit respectively). More information on the nature of man can be found in part 3 of the Satanic Rebellion series: "The Purpose, Creation, and Fall of Man". And you might also want to see the following links:

Sleep as a Euphemism for Death

Our Heavenly, Pre-Resurrection, Interim State.

The False Doctrine of Soul Sleep II

This point is actually apropos of your question because one of the things a correct understanding of the biblical teachings about God's construction of Man imparts is the realization that we are and have always been both material and immaterial, and will always be so (true even of unbelievers). Man was never meant to be and never will be a "disembodied spirit", and never will be. In the resurrection, we believers will have a new, glorious body far superior to our present one in many ways (see the Peter series, lessons #20 "The Resurrection" and #27 "Three False Doctrines that Threaten Faith"). The resurrection will occur at the Second Advent of our Lord for all believers alive at that time (as well as for all those who have died before our that event takes place: 1Thes.4:13-17), and ever after those so blessed will enjoy a body that cannot know pain, or sorrow, or decay (Rev.21:4). But even during for all those who have or will die in the Lord before that point, the time between physical death and bodily resurrection is not spent in "soul sleep". On the one hand, such a thing is impossible because

1) the soul is, as mentioned above, a combination of material and immaterial elements (i.e., without some sort of home for our spirit, there is no "us").

2) there is no mention of "soul sleep" in the Bible or anything approximating it;

3) scripture is consistent in all descriptions of heaven and paradise as representing the dead as conscious (e.g., the parable of the rich man and Lazarus: Lk.16:19-31; the description of believers in heaven awaiting the Second Advent: Rev.6:9-11; 7:9-17; cf. Heb.12:22).

After all, why would Paul (and others) be so anxious to "be with the Lord", if it only meant that they would be "asleep" until some far future time ("I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far": Phil.1:23)? And there is this passage of scripture which definitively puts the issue to rest:

For we know that if our earthly tent-dwelling [i.e., our physical body] be struck, we have an abode [that comes] from God, a dwelling made without human agency, eternal in the heavens. For indeed we do groan in this one, desiring to put on our habitation which comes from heaven. And [even] if we do put off this present one, at any rate, we [i.e., our spirits] will not be found naked [i.e., "body-less"].
2nd Corinthians 5:1-3

If your translation of the Bible prints something different here, that is not surprising. Most versions want to "emend" the original Greek text of 2nd Corinthians 5:3, not on the basis of any alternative manuscript reason, but solely on the basis of not understanding what Paul is saying - namely that after death we will not be naked (i.e., without a body), in spite of the fact that the resurrection has not yet occurred. The reason for this is that, creatures of both a material and immaterial nature that we are, God will never leave us in any other way than He always meant us to be, possessing both a body and a spirit (in the case of departed believers, the body is at this present time an "interim" body which, while superior to our present "home", is not to be compared with the marvelous "resurrection body" which will be ours on that future day of Christ's return).

That believers who have departed to be with the Lord are conscious and truly experiencing His presence (even though they have not yet experienced the resurrection) can also be seen from John's description of the worship of martyred believers in presence of the Lamb prior to the Second Advent:

After this I looked and, behold, [there was] a huge multitude which no one was able to number from every nation and tribe and people and tongue standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and with palm branches in their hands. And they were shouting in a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God, the One who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Revelation 7:9-10 (cf. Rev.7:13-17)

Confidence in our immediate reunion with the Lord we love and for whom we live is also a large part of the motivation that keeps us going forward in the Christian life, ever up that steep and narrow road. The false doctrine of "soul sleep" robs us of this assurance of being with Jesus immediately after death and tends to make our view of resurrection more tenuous. But the resurrection is the rock of the gospel, and just as we believe that our Lord was "conscious" in the grave for three days (1Pet.3:18-19), and resurrected on the third day, so also we are confident of a joyous and immediate reunion with Him as soon as we complete our tour of duty on this satanic battlefield - whenever that day may come, on that very day we shall be "with Him in paradise" (Lk.23:43). And we are supremely confident of the literal resurrection of our bodies - into something far more wonderful than we can now imagine - when the time arrives for His glorious return.

Yours in the confident expectation of the resurrection of the Church of Christ,

Bob Luginbill http://ichthys.com/mail-soul%20sleep.htm

 

[ATP]

It's a complicated subject.
I mean, if Acts 7:59 is true then why write James 2:26 and 1 Thess 4:14.
Then you got spirit, soul, body controversy,
and then you got scriptures about the dead know nothing and scriptures about sleeping in the grave.
It's a lot to intake.

If soul sleep is true then what does "and gave up the ghost and yielded up the ghost:" mean?

Ananias and Sapphira

1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. 11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

 

[Phoneman777]

the "soul" (Greek psyche [ψύχη], Hebrew nephesh [נפש]) is the word the Bible uses to describe the inner person as a combination of the both the material and immaterial parts of the human being (namely, the physical mind and the human spirit respectively).
After all, why would Paul (and others) be so anxious to "be with the Lord", if it only meant that they would be "asleep" until some far future time

Hi, ATP, If I may, I'd like an opportunity to respond to these two points:

(1) "...the "soul" (Greek psyche [ψύχη], Hebrew nephesh [נפש]) is the word the Bible uses to describe the inner person as a combination of the both the material and immaterial parts of the human being (namely, the physical mind and the human spirit respectively)."

The Bible describes the living soul as the combination of the human body and God's breath of life aka spirit of life (Genesis 2:7 KJV; Job 33:4 KJV); the moment at which they combine begins the existence of that living soul and not a moment before (Ecclesiastes 4:2-3 KJV).

Consequently, the living soul ceases to exist when the one component returns to God and the other to the dust (Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV; Job 34:14-15 KJV). A key point is that which will "return" to God is only that which initially came from God which excludes popular ideas about "ghostly spirits of the dead", "disembodied souls", "poltergeists", which those who believe such things exist are reluctant but compelled to admit are things which originate DOWN HERE, NOT UP THERE. These cannot "return" to God any sooner than you and I can return to the moon - unless we've previously been there.

The beasts, too, are referred to as having the same breath of life in their body and as living souls, as well (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 KJV; Revelation 16:3 KJV). So, the living soul is any creature, man or beast, into which God has breathed His breath of life and exists only as long as these two components are joined together. As the electric current (breath of life) passes through an incandescent bulb (body), the combination of the two produces light (living soul). No one will conclude that when the current is interrupted, the light continues to shine on another plane of existence - the conclusion is unanimous: the light has ceased to exist.


(2) After all, why would Paul (and others) be so anxious to "be with the Lord", if it only meant that they would be "asleep" until some far future time?

So, with a proper understanding of what a soul is, we can now understand why Paul wanted to be "absent from the body and present with the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 5:1-10:

• He starts out by stating the obvious - that we are now in mortal bodies, which he says burden us in verse 2 and 3, and then speaks of the heavenly bodies that await us.
• He then says that while we are in this body, we groan with desire to be rid of this burdensome body, BUT NOT TO BE NAKED, but to be clothed with a heavenly body.
• What is this unclothed, naked state in which Paul desired to not found? Lying dead in the grave without a body awaiting the "change" into the new resurrection body which Jesus will bring with Him at the last trump. (Job 14:12-14 KJV; Job 17:13 KJV; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV)

QUESTION:
If Paul thought he would fly off to heaven immediately at death, then why would he or us for that matter give a flip about "unclothed-ness" and "nakedness"? If we immediately go to be with Jesus in heaven at death, who cares if we go there without a body? A more important question for the "once saved/always saved" crowd is, What the heck are you guys still here for? If the sin of taking one's own life has no effect on one's salvation and the moment that it happens finds that person in the presence of Jesus, then why stay down here in all this misery, especially if you're a Christian in the Middle East right now?

However, if the grave, and not heaven, is the place where we go at death to lie naked without a body in a state of insensibility awaiting the coming of Jesus and the resurrection body that He brings with Him - well then, a blind man can see why Paul says that he and us "do groan, not that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon that mortality might be swallowed up of life." Today, I wanted "to be absent from the workcenter and present with my family" but I dreaded the unbearable rush hour traffic in between - the same way that Paul dreaded the intermediate period between his "earthly tabernacle" and his "building not made with hands eternal in the heavens" in that cold grave.

 

[Bobby Hall]

Hi, ATP, If I may, I'd like an opportunity to respond to these two points:

(1) "...the "soul" (Greek psyche [ψύχη], Hebrew nephesh [נפש]) is the word the Bible uses to describe the inner person as a combination of the both the material and immaterial parts of the human being (namely, the physical mind and the human spirit respectively)."

The Bible describes the living soul as the combination of the human body and God's breath of life aka spirit of life (Genesis 2:7 KJV; Job 33:4 KJV); the moment at which they combine begins the existence of that living soul and not a moment before (Ecclesiastes 4:2-3 KJV).

Consequently, the living soul ceases to exist when the one component returns to God and the other to the dust (Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV; Job 34:14-15 KJV). A key point is that which will "return" to God is only that which initially came from God which excludes popular ideas about "ghostly spirits of the dead", "disembodied souls", "poltergeists", which those who believe such things exist are reluctant but compelled to admit are things which originate DOWN HERE, NOT UP THERE. These cannot "return" to God any sooner than you and I can return to the moon - unless we've previously been there.

The beasts, too, are referred to as having the same breath of life in their body and as living souls, as well (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 KJV; Revelation 16:3 KJV). So, the living soul is any creature, man or beast, into which God has breathed His breath of life and exists only as long as these two components are joined together. As the electric current (breath of life) passes through an incandescent bulb (body), the combination of the two produces light (living soul). No one will conclude that when the current is interrupted, the light continues to shine on another plane of existence - the conclusion is unanimous: the light has ceased to exist.


(2) After all, why would Paul (and others) be so anxious to "be with the Lord", if it only meant that they would be "asleep" until some far future time?

So, with a proper understanding of what a soul is, we can now understand why Paul wanted to be "absent from the body and present with the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 5:1-10:

• He starts out by stating the obvious - that we are now in mortal bodies, which he says burden us in verse 2 and 3, and then speaks of the heavenly bodies that await us.
• He then says that while we are in this body, we groan with desire to be rid of this burdensome body, BUT NOT TO BE NAKED, but to be clothed with a heavenly body.
• What is this unclothed, naked state in which Paul desired to not found? Lying dead in the grave without a body awaiting the "change" into the new resurrection body which Jesus will bring with Him at the last trump. (Job 14:12-14 KJV; Job 17:13 KJV; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV)

QUESTION:
If Paul thought he would fly off to heaven immediately at death, then why would he or us for that matter give a flip about "unclothed-ness" and "nakedness"? If we immediately go to be with Jesus in heaven at death, who cares if we go there without a body? A more important question for the "once saved/always saved" crowd is, What the heck are you guys still here for? If the sin of taking one's own life has no effect on one's salvation and the moment that it happens finds that person in the presence of Jesus, then why stay down here in all this misery, especially if you're a Christian in the Middle East right now?

However, if the grave, and not heaven, is the place where we go at death to lie naked without a body in a state of insensibility awaiting the coming of Jesus and the resurrection body that He brings with Him - well then, a blind man can see why Paul says that he and us "do groan, not that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon that mortality might be swallowed up of life." Today, I wanted "to be absent from the workcenter and present with my family" but I dreaded the unbearable rush hour traffic in between - the same way that Paul dreaded the intermediate period between his "earthly tabernacle" and his "building not made with hands eternal in the heavens" in that cold grave.

Excellent. You have it nailed.
This seems to cause a lot of heartburn: 2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

First, this is a COMPOUND sentence. That is to say, two separate and complete thoughts joined by the conjunction "and".

Thought (1) We are willing to be absent from the body

AND

Thought (2) We are willing to be present with the Lord.

Nowhere here does Paul say that "To be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord. That is not said but that is what we want it to say. We are adding to the Scripture when we make this jump.

Now when did Paul; say we would actually gather together unto the Lord? Yes indeed, Paul did say when this event would take place:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Did you get that? Paul is talking about our gathering together unto the Lord in the above verse.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Now Paul has told us when we will actually gather together unto the Lord. No time before. Not upon our deaths but at the Lord's coming.


Mar_13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All of this gathering happens at the second coming of the Christ - not before.

How many times can one gather unto the Christ? JUST ONCE.

 

[ATP]

Hi, ATP, If I may, I'd like an opportunity to respond to these two points:

When you get a chance I need your thoughts on Acts 5 verse 5 & 10, KJV version.

I see these verses saying that the spirit doesn't give up the body, rather the body gives up the spirit.

And the spirit lives on to be with the Lord. Post#2.

A more important question for the "once saved/always saved" crowd is, What the heck are you guys still here for?

A born again christian cannot lose his salvation. He loses rewards and crowns at the Bema Seat, there's a difference.

Neither the present nor the future can separate us from God (Rom 8:38-39)
All Sins are Covered (Col 2:13-15)
An inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade (1 Peter 1:4)
We are marked with a seal (Eph 1:13-14)

The Bible teaches that this spirit in man imparts aspects of the human mind, including self-awareness, intellect, creativity, personality and temperament—everything that enables human accomplishment and knowledge short of true spiritual understanding (1 Corinthians:2:11).

Correct, and our spirit being departs the body and goes to be with the Lord once we die. Acts 5:5, 10.

 

[Phoneman777]

When you get a chance I need your thoughts on Acts 5 verse 5 & 10, KJV version.

I see these verses saying that the spirit doesn't give up the body, rather the body gives up the spirit.

And the spirit lives on to be with the Lord. Post#2.


A born again christian cannot lose his salvation. He loses rewards and crowns at the Bema Seat, there's a difference.

Neither the present nor the future can separate us from God (Rom 8:38-39)
All Sins are Covered (Col 2:13-15)
An inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade (1 Peter 1:4)
We are marked with a seal (Eph 1:13-14)



Correct, and our spirit being departs the body and goes to be with the Lord once we die. Acts 5:5, 10.

Hi, ATP, the "ghost" of Annias and Sapphira is just another way of saying "spirit" (ie. Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit), so the passage says that it returned to God and left the bodies of Annanias and Sapphara dead, both no longer "living souls" but "dead souls", or no longer existing souls. That's why Solomon says, "the dead know not anything...no memory...no love, hatred, envy (or any other emotions), no knowledge...no wisdom", just nothingness until the resurrection.

 

[ATP]

Hi, ATP, the "ghost" of Annias and Sapphira is just another way of saying "spirit" (ie. Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit), so the passage says that it returned to God and left the bodies of Annanias and Sapphara dead, both no longer "living souls" but "dead souls", or no longer existing souls. That's why Solomon says, "the dead know not anything...no memory...no love, hatred, envy (or any other emotions), no knowledge...no wisdom", just nothingness until the resurrection.

But wouldn't the spirit be alive with God in their will, mind and emotions. The spirit didn't give up the body, the body gave up the spirit. The spirit didn't die, the body did.

 

[Phoneman777]

But wouldn't the spirit be alive with God in their will, mind and emotions. The spirit didn't give up the body, the body gave up the spirit. The spirit didn't die, the body did.

We all fully understand and accept that a thing cannot "return" to a place from which the thing has never departed. At our death, the Spirit "returns" to God from Who the Spirit had previously departed, but since our will, mind, and emotions only began to exist down here and have never departed heaven, they cannot and do not "return" to heaven (because these have never departed heaven). Consequently, when the Spirit returns to God and the body to the dust, the soul (which is the "I", "ego", "self", "will", "mind", "emotions", all these and more) ceases to exist. That's why emotions, memory, wisdom, knowledge, and all the other stuff that the Bible writers say cease to be.

 

[Bobby Hall]

When you get a chance I need your thoughts on Acts 5 verse 5 & 10, KJV version.

I see these verses saying that the spirit doesn't give up the body, rather the body gives up the spirit.

And the spirit lives on to be with the Lord. Post#2.


A born again christian cannot lose his salvation. He loses rewards and crowns at the Bema Seat, there's a difference.

Neither the present nor the future can separate us from God (Rom 8:38-39)
All Sins are Covered (Col 2:13-15)
An inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade (1 Peter 1:4)
We are marked with a seal (Eph 1:13-14)



Correct, and our spirit being departs the body and goes to be with the Lord once we die. Acts 5:5, 10.

No!! Not our Spirit being. We are not Spirit beings until the resurrection. We cannot go to be with God when we die and then be resurrected and gathered by the angels at Christ's coming to be with Him. If we're already there how can we be gathered by the angels at Christ's coming. You've got to make sense here.

 

[ATP]

We all fully understand and accept that a thing cannot "return" to a place from which the thing has never departed. At our death, the Spirit "returns" to God from Who the Spirit had previously departed, but since our will, mind, and emotions only began to exist down here and have never departed heaven, they cannot and do not "return" to heaven (because these have never departed heaven). Consequently, when the Spirit returns to God and the body to the dust, the soul (which is the "I", "ego", "self", "will", "mind", "emotions", all these and more) ceases to exist. That's why emotions, memory, wisdom, knowledge, and all the other stuff that the Bible writers say cease to be.

But the body is just the shell and flesh that holds our spirit/soul. Our spirit/soul is the one with the personality and etc...our body and flesh doesn't have the personality, our spirit/soul does which does not die. So if our personality/spirit/soul doesn't die then soul sleep is false.

No!! Not our Spirit being. We are not Spirit beings until the resurrection. We cannot go to be with God when we die and then be resurrected and gathered by the angels at Christ's coming to be with Him. If we're already there how can we be gathered by the angels at Christ's coming. You've got to make sense here.

But wouldn't the spirit be alive with God in their will, mind and emotions. The spirit didn't give up the body, the body gave up the spirit. The spirit/soul didn't die, the body did. Acts 5:5, 10.

The body is just the shell and flesh that holds our spirit/soul. Our spirit/soul is the one with the personality etc...our body and flesh doesn't have the personality, our spirit/soul does which does not die. So if our personality/spirit/soul doesn't die then soul sleep is false.

 

[Phoneman777]

The body is just the shell and flesh that holds our spirit/soul. Our spirit/soul is the one with the personality etc...our body and flesh doesn't have the personality, our spirit/soul does which does not die. So if our personality/spirit/soul doesn't die then soul sleep is false.

I say this as kindly as I can when I say that the "body shell" belief comes from Greek occultism and not Scripture, that there is no such thing as a "spirit/soul", and souls do die. Here are the verses:

1) At creation, man did not take possession of a Soul, but rather he became a Soul. Body + Spirit of Life = Living Soul (Genesis 2:7 KJV).

2) The Spirit and Soul are distinct one from the other because they can be separated (Hebrews 4:12 KJV) and because although Jesus' Spirit went up in its return to God at His death (Luke 23:46 KJV), His Soul went down to the hell (Hades - "the grave" or "the place of the dead") as all "dead souls" do (Acts 2:27 KJV).

3) Souls die (Ezekiel 18:4 KJV; James 5:20 KJV).

We Living Souls do not possess native immortality, but rather we Living Souls seek for immortality, which would be unnecessary if we already possessed it (Romans 2:6-8 KJV). The doctrine of the native immortality of the soul comes straight out of the pits of demons and was the first lie in the Bible when the serpent told Eve, "Thou shalt not surely die."

 

[ATP]

We Living Souls do not possess native immortality, but rather we Living Souls seek for immortality, which would be unnecessary if we already possessed it (Romans 2:6-8 KJV). The doctrine of the native immortality of the soul comes straight out of the pits of demons and was the first lie in the Bible when the serpent told Eve, "Thou shalt not surely die."

I agree with what you're saying about the body and soul. I'm just having difficulty understanding our spirit being that goes back to God upon death. Doesn't our spirit have free will to commune with God? Our spirit is made up of (1) communion, (2) conscience and (3) intuition. Can our spirit function with these three things without our soul? Does our spirit consist of thought or is it just breath from God? In essence, I would say breath in itself has no thought until it becomes a soul. I hope I'm making sense here, such a deep topic. - ATP

 

[Trekson]

Hi Phoneman, Your words: "We Living Souls do not possess native immortality, but rather we Living Souls seek for immortality, which would be unnecessary if we already possessed it (Romans 2:6-8 KJV). The doctrine of the native immortality of the soul comes straight out of the pits of demons and was the first lie in the Bible when the serpent told Eve, "Thou shalt not surely die."


I'm sorry, but the opinion expressed in this statement is a bunch of poppycock! The possession of an eternal soul, is what makes us "created in God's image". Adam and Eve were created eternal beings but death "came" to them upon their failure to obey God, just not right away. So from conception, as we are being formed in the womb, we already possess an eternal soul, so it does come "natively"! Let's look at a couple of "proofs".

In the story of the Witch of Endor (1 Sam. 28) Samuel doesn't appear as a zombie or as a skeleton, or with the odor of death. He appears normal, in a real body but he is a spirit, unlike Lazarus, whose physical body was resurrected.

When Jesus was on the Mount of Transfiguration was he speaking with a couple of graves? No! Was he speaking with zombie-like walking dead? No! He was speaking and interacting with the actual spirits of Moses and Elijah.

When we are told the story in 1 Peter 3:18-20 - "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

The emboldened part describes all of us upon death, though some go to Paradise and others go to Sheol/Hades, either way our eternal spirits are incomplete until we are united with our resurrected bodies. Do you think Christ was preaching to a bunch of gravestones and sepulchres?

In an earlier post when you made an issue over the use of the word "and", your argument was empty and the wording can most certainly imply that one can immediately follow the other. So as Paul taught to be "absent from the body "and" present with the Lord are a cause and effect type scenario.

Then in Rev. 6:9-11 - "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Whether one believes they consist of all those since the 1st century or only those within the context of the 70th week, the fact remains they are dead, yet they can speak, be seen and wear clothes. Does Christ lie?

Even if one could prove OT saints didn't have eternal spirits the fact that Christ died and rose from the grave thus defeating death itself would have and did change everything! I mean think about it, if the evil dead, are actually dead and not eternal spirits, what would be the point of resurrecting them for the GWTJ, just to put them back in the grave for a second death. Talk about an exercise in futility! In my opinion, the lie here is believing that when we are "absent from the body", we are not present with the Lord!

 

[Phoneman777]

I agree with what you're saying about the body and soul. I'm just having difficulty understanding our spirit being that goes back to God upon death. Doesn't our spirit have free will to commune with God? Our spirit is made up of (1) communion, (2) conscience and (3) intuition. Can our spirit function with these three things without our soul? Does our spirit consist of thought or is it just breath from God? In essence, I would say breath in itself has no thought until it becomes a soul. I hope I'm making sense here, such a deep topic. - ATP

My dear Christian friend, thank you for the privilege of allowing me to discuss this with you and please don't think me offensive when I say though your ideas are certainly logical and profound, let's stick with Scripture and see where it leads us:

1) We must remember, as I stated earlier, that a thing can't "return to God", or as you put it "go back to God", unless the thing had previously "departed from God".

2) The will, mind, emotions, I, ego, self, conscience, intuition, etc. are all attributes which actually define our Soul, not the Spirit. This is shown by the fact that though the Spirit of Jesus ascended to heaven at His death (Luke 23:46 KJV), He firmly declares after His resurrection that "I am not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17 KJV). [SIZE=14.3999996185303px]Therefore, these attributes cannot and do not return to God at death because these obviously have never departed from God in the first place, seeing that they originate down here. [/SIZE]The Spirit that goes forth from God to make alive His creatures and returns to Him at their death is simply the "life giving principle that animates man and beast", and nothing more.

3) It seems that you have concluded that the aforementioned attributes (will, mind, conscience, etc.) define the Spirit, not the Soul, and therefore since the Bible's often refers to "our spirit" and "my spirit", you conclude that the "our" and "my" refer to these attributes and return with the Spirit to God at death (again, only that which has previously departed from God can return to God). But, along with the above clarification that these attributes define the Soul, not the Spirit, please carefully note that at death when the components of the Soul - the Spirit and the Body - are separated, the Bible no longer speaks of the Spirit in terms of "our" or "my", but "HIS" Spirit which He gathers to Himself: (Job 33:4 KJV; Job 34:14-15 KJV). I know this reasoning requires a major paradigm shift, but I it's airtight with Scripture, I think.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Phoneman, Your words: "I know this reasoning requires a major paradigm shift, but I it's airtight with Scripture, I think."

I certainly don't consider it airtight at all. Let's look at an example you gave.

Your words: "The will, mind, emotions, I, ego, self, conscience, intuition, etc. are all attributes which actually define our Soul, not the Spirit. This is shown by the fact that though the Spirit of Jesus ascended to heaven at His death (Luke 23:46 KJV), He firmly declares after His resurrection that "I am not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17 KJV). [SIZE=14.3999996185303px]Therefore, these attributes cannot and do not return to God at death because these obviously have never departed from God in the first place, seeing that they originate down here. [/SIZE]The Spirit that goes forth from God to make alive His creatures and returns to Him at their death is simply the "life giving principle that animates man and beast", and nothing more."


I disagree with this premise because, imo, you have it backwards. Our soul, is the part of us that is eternal, whether for good or bad. Our spirit, is what makes us who we are. In christianity, our spirit is "changed" by the Holy Spirit. It is what makes us a new "man" or a new "creation". WHO we are changes because of Christ.

Consider this vs. Acts 2:27 - "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." This is David prophesying about Christ. Why would the concern be about the "soul"? Because it is the "soul" that is eternal!

Regarding Luke 23:46, it is NOT a record of Christ's spirit going to heaven, because as Christ stated in the other verse he had NOT yet ascended to His Father. Christ is just showing us the absolute submission and trust He put in His Father because Christ knew he was going to descend into hell to preach to the spirits in prison!!

According to Strong's, the word for "soul" is "psuche" G5590 and the definition is contrasted between two categories. The one from John 3:16 where is speaks of eternal "life" means "vitality" and on the other hand when it is used as "spirit" (G4151) as in Luke 23:46, it is speaking of the rational and immortal soul! So, it can be a bit confusing as it seems they interchange the words spirit and soul at times.

Our eternal souls, with our spirits, if we're believers, do indeed go to the Father upon death.

 

[ATP]

The Spirit that goes forth from God to make alive His creatures and returns to Him at their death is simply the "life giving principle that animates man and beast", and nothing more.

If this is true then how and why?

2 Cor 5:8 - If our spirit is present with the Lord, how are we present if we're not aware of anything. Why be anxious to be present with the Lord if we're not aware.
Phil 1:23 - Why be torn if we're not aware of anything. Why is Christ better by far if we're not aware of his presence.

2 Cor 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Phil 1:23 - I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

 

[Bobby Hall]

The soul is the whole of man. It is the body and the spirit. Scripture states that all souls die.

The body cannot perform without the spirit. Without the spirit, the body is brain dead. Folks who are brain dead are in what we call a vegetable state.

The spirit cannot perform without the body. The spirit must have either a Spirit body or a flesh and blood body in which to reside. The spirit that God imparted unto man returns in an inactive state to God upon the death of the earthly creature. At the Second Advent, God will give those who are His, a Spirit body in which each man's individual spirit will be restored. This spirit will have been quicken by the Holy Spirit to enable it's resurrection into a Spirit being and as a son of God. Those who are not Christ's will be resurrected after the earthly reign of Christ once again in flesh and blood bodies and face the Great White Throne judgment. Since all spirits of man go back to God upon the death of the man, even those spirits of man who are not Christs are united with an earthly body at their resurrection to judgment.

Again, it was the Christ Himself who said very plainly that no man had ascended unto Heaven except for Himself.

 

[ATP]

The spirit that God imparted unto man returns in an inactive state to God upon the death of the earthly creature.

If this is true then how and why?

2 Cor 5:8 - If our spirit is present with the Lord, how are we present if we're not aware of anything. Why be anxious to be present with the Lord if we're not aware.
Phil 1:23 - Why be torn if we're not aware of anything. Why is Christ better by far if we're not aware of his presence.

2 Cor 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Phil 1:23 - I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

Again, it was the Christ Himself who said very plainly that no man had ascended unto Heaven except for Himself.

Right, he said no man. He didn't say no spirit.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phoneman, Your words: "I know this reasoning requires a major paradigm shift, but I it's airtight with Scripture, I think."

I certainly don't consider it airtight at all. Let's look at an example you gave.

Your words: "The will, mind, emotions, I, ego, self, conscience, intuition, etc. are all attributes which actually define our Soul, not the Spirit. This is shown by the fact that though the Spirit of Jesus ascended to heaven at His death (Luke 23:46 KJV), He firmly declares after His resurrection that "I am not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17 KJV). [SIZE=14.3999996185303px]Therefore, these attributes cannot and do not return to God at death because these obviously have never departed from God in the first place, seeing that they originate down here. [/SIZE]The Spirit that goes forth from God to make alive His creatures and returns to Him at their death is simply the "life giving principle that animates man and beast", and nothing more."


I disagree with this premise because, imo, you have it backwards. Our soul, is the part of us that is eternal, whether for good or bad. Our spirit, is what makes us who we are. In christianity, our spirit is "changed" by the Holy Spirit. It is what makes us a new "man" or a new "creation". WHO we are changes because of Christ.

Consider this vs. Acts 2:27 - "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." This is David prophesying about Christ. Why would the concern be about the "soul"? Because it is the "soul" that is eternal!

Regarding Luke 23:46, it is NOT a record of Christ's spirit going to heaven, because as Christ stated in the other verse he had NOT yet ascended to His Father. Christ is just showing us the absolute submission and trust He put in His Father because Christ knew he was going to descend into hell to preach to the spirits in prison!!

According to Strong's, the word for "soul" is "psuche" G5590 and the definition is contrasted between two categories. The one from John 3:16 where is speaks of eternal "life" means "vitality" and on the other hand when it is used as "spirit" (G4151) as in Luke 23:46, it is speaking of the rational and immortal soul! So, it can be a bit confusing as it seems they interchange the words spirit and soul at times.

Our eternal souls, with our spirits, if we're believers, do indeed go to the Father upon death.

Hi, Trek, I like your name!

Soul = Body + Spirit (Genesis 2:7 KJV). If God separates this union by gathering His Spirit from the Body, does the Soul continue to exist?

Lever = Beam + Fulcrum. If I toss the Beam in my truck and you toss the Fulcrum in your truck and we drive away, does the Lever continue to exist?

Incandescent Light = Bulb + Electricity. If I disrupt the flow of Electricity through the Bulb does the Incandescent Light continue to exist?

Water = H2 + O. If I separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen, does the Water continue to exist?

Marriage = Husband + Wife. If the Husband divorces his Wife of 35 years because the louse actually thinks his young, hot girlfriend is really interested in his keg gut, his hairline in full retreat, and caring for his rapidly deteriorating health - rather than his mega-fat bank account - does the marriage continue to exist?

IMHO, I believe you will have to bring your definition of a Soul in line with Scripture.

 

[Born_Again]

Soul = Body + Spirit (Genesis 2:7 KJV). If God separates this union by gathering His Spirit from the Body, does the Soul continue to exist?

Lever = Beam + Fulcrum. If I toss the Beam in my truck and you toss the Fulcrum in your truck and we drive away, does the Lever continue to exist?

Incandescent Light = Bulb + Electricity. If I disrupt the flow of Electricity through the Bulb does the Incandescent Light continue to exist?

Water = H2 + O. If I separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen, does the Water continue to exist?

Marriage = Husband + Wife. If the Husband divorces his Wife of 35 years because the louse actually thinks his young, hot girlfriend is really interested in his keg gut, his hairline in full retreat, and caring for his rapidly deteriorating health - rather than his mega-fat bank account - does the marriage continue to exist?

IMHO, I believe you will have to bring your definition of a Soul in line with Scripture.

I couldn't help but notice the detailed divorce description.......