Soul sleep

[Butch5]

Kinda like how Non-OSAS quote Heb 6:4-6 but ignore verse 7-8 about the seed and the farmer. People use certain verses to fit their beliefs, but do not see the whole context.

I believe quite often it is the case. I think modern Christians have been so indoctrinated into the use of proof texting that they don't even realize that it's happening. I don't necessarily think it's their fault as often they learn it right from the pulpit. They see Christian leaders espousing doctrines and then jumping all over the Bible attempting to prove it with a verse here and a verse there. It's so common that it just seems the normal thing to do. However, it doesn't lead one to truth. The Bible is a history book and if we approach it as such it becomes much more clear and easier to understand. if all Christians would do this I think many of these opposing doctrines would resolve themselves.

 

[ATP]

I believe quite often it is the case. I think modern Christians have been so indoctrinated into the use of proof texting that they don't even realize that it's happening. I don't necessarily think it's their fault as often they learn it right from the pulpit. They see Christian leaders espousing doctrines and then jumping all over the Bible attempting to prove it with a verse here and a verse there. It's so common that it just seems the normal thing to do. However, it doesn't lead one to truth. The Bible is a history book and if we approach it as such it becomes much more clear and easier to understand. if all Christians would do this I think many of these opposing doctrines would resolve themselves.

The only verse that confuses me is 1 Kings 17:22 and why they use the words "soul" or "life". Why didn't they just use "spirit" like they did in Eccl 12:7 NIV.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Butch, Your words: "If we look at the whole of Scripture we find that, the dead know nothing, that the dead cannot praise God, that the dead have no memory, and so on."

If one ignores Ecc. as being at best unreliable on this topic, what are the rest of the "whole" that proclaim what you say, especially in the NT.

 

[Butch5]

The only verse that confuses me is 1 Kings 17:22 and why they use the words "soul" or "life". Why didn't they just use "spirit" like they did in Eccl 12:7 NIV.

It's just saying that his life came back to him. It seems that either way the result is the same. If one doesn't have the spirit they don't have life either.

 

[ATP]

It's just saying that his life came back to him. It seems that either way the result is the same. If one doesn't have the spirit they don't have life either.

Gotquestions puts it well too.... "The life principle of the soul is removed at the time of physical death.."

Question: "What is the difference between the soul and spirit of man?"

Answer: The soul and the spirit are the two primary immaterial aspects that Scripture ascribes to humanity. It can be confusing to attempt to discern the precise differences between the two. The word “spirit” refers only to the immaterial facet of humanity. Human beings have a spirit, but we are not spirits. However, in Scripture, only believers are said to be spiritually alive (1 Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:12; James 2:26), while unbelievers are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13). In Paul's writing, the spiritual was pivotal to the life of the believer (1 Corinthians 2:14; 3:1; Ephesians 1:3; 5:19; Colossians 1:9; 3:16). The spirit is the element in humanity which gives us the ability to have an intimate relationship with God. Whenever the word “spirit” is used, it refers to the immaterial part of humanity that “connects” with God, who Himself is spirit (John 4:24).

The word “soul” can refer to both the immaterial and material aspects of humanity. Unlike human beings having a spirit, human beings are souls. In its most basic sense, the word “soul” means “life.” However, beyond this essential meaning, the Bible speaks of the soul in many contexts. One of these is humanity’s eagerness to sin (Luke 12:26). Humanity is naturally evil, and our souls are tainted as a result. The life principle of the soul is removed at the time of physical death (Genesis 35:18; Jeremiah 15:2). The soul, as with the spirit, is the center of many spiritual and emotional experiences (Job 30:25; Psalm 43:5; Jeremiah 13:17). Whenever the word “soul” is used, it can refer to the whole person, whether alive or in the afterlife.

The soul and the spirit are connected, but separable (Hebrews 4:12). The soul is the essence of humanity’s being; it is who we are. The spirit is the aspect of humanity that connects with God.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-spirit.html#ixzz3RkzmrtsW

It's just saying that his life came back to him. It seems that either way the result is the same. If one doesn't have the spirit they don't have life either.

I have a question. When scripture says the spirit is breath or wind, does that refer to the same kind of breath we breathe out inside cold air for example? The breath we can see in cold air?

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch, Your words: "If we look at the whole of Scripture we find that, the dead know nothing, that the dead cannot praise God, that the dead have no memory, and so on."

If one ignores Ecc. as being at best unreliable on this topic, what are the rest of the "whole" that proclaim what you say, especially in the NT.

Are you referring to other passage out side of Ecc? If so, we have David who was prophet.

KJV Psalm 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth? (Psa 30:9 KJV)

9 Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee.
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? (Psa 88:9-12 KJV)


4 Return, O LORD, deliver me! Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake!
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Psa 6:4-5 NKJ)


Isaiah,

18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. (Isa 38:18 KJV)

Job,


18 `Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me!
19 I would have been as though I had not been. I would have been carried from the womb to the grave.
20 Are not my days few? Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort,
21 Before I go to the place from which I shall not return, To the land of darkness and the shadow of death,
22 A land as dark as darkness itself, As the shadow of death, without any order, Where even the light is like darkness.'"
(Job 10:18-22 NKJ)



Job 14:10-15 10 But man dies and is laid away; Indeed he breathes his last And where is he? 11 As water disappears from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dries up, 12 So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, They will not awake Nor be roused from their sleep. 13 "Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes. 15 You shall call, and I will answer You; You shall desire the work of Your hands.

In the NT we see sleep being used as a metaphor for death, however, there is no reason to think that death here is any different than what we saw in the OT.

 

[Angelina]

Moving this thread to the appropriate forum ^_^

 

[Trekson]

Hi Angelina, How do you figure a discussion on soul sleep and related matters as being unorthodox? It's a pretty common debate about a realistic subject.

 

[ATP]

Moving this thread to the appropriate forum ^_^

I would agree with Trekson. It's a pretty major topic. Debate wise.

 

[Angelina]

ATP you have already created this same topic on another forum. Although it is being discussed under the category of the "Discussion forum" and is being closely monitored by a moderator ~ I personally think that it fits more appropriately in this forum. If you have any issues with my decision please take it up with the Admin...

Thanks

 

[Angelina]

Hi Angelina, How do you figure a discussion on soul sleep and related matters as being unorthodox? It's a pretty common debate about a realistic subject.

I agree Trekson, soul sleep is a commonly debated subject but that does not make it orthodox. Soul sleep has no roots in Christian orthodoxy. According to historian Philip Schaff, soul sleep was formulated in the mind of a fourth century pantheist named Arnobius. Since then, it has been taken up by athiests and a handful of religious adherents including JWs, Christadelphianists, Old school Armstrongism, and Seventh Day Adventists.

 

[ATP]

I agree Trekson, soul sleep is a commonly debated subject but that does not make it orthodox. Soul sleep has no roots in Christian orthodoxy. According to historian Philip Schaff, soul sleep was formulated in the mind of a fourth century pantheist named Arnobius. Since then, it has been taken up by athiests and a handful of religious adherents including JWs, Christadelphianists, Old school Armstrongism, and Seventh Day Adventists.

[ link to another topic removed] Instead, you're trying to figure out my denomination??

 

[Angelina]

No need to figure it out. I already know...and btw you are off topic. Please keep to the O/P or you could incur a warning point...

Thank you

 

[ATP]

No need to figure it out. I already know...and btw you are off topic. Please keep to the O/P or you could incur a warning point...

Thank you

No prob. Question for soul sleep thread, for anyone who has answer.
I do see in Gen 2:7 that God created man first, then our spirit second.
My question is, if the origin of our existence is our flesh and not our spirit,
how do we then exist as spirit in the third heaven without our body.

If we were to prove spirits live in the third heaven after death, we would also have to prove spirits are in hell right now. And that's simply not biblical, because Hades is the grave. Nonbelievers are in their grave awaiting judgment. They will be punished at the GWT, and not before...

Matt 13:40-42 NIV “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 12:48 NIV There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

2 Peter 2:9 NIV if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

- ATP

 

[Raeneske]

Don't worry about the thread being placed in the unorthodox forum. Consider it an honor.

Most of this world believes in the lie of Satan. You have your small collection of human beings that actually believe the truth regarding this matter, and then you have the grand majority who believe otherwise. You have Christians, Buddhists, and spiritualists in all manner who believe exactly what Satan told Eve in the garden of Eden. There is no getting around that. It is Satan who teaches that mankind shall not surely die. But what saith the Scriptures (new AND old Testament):

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Many teach that the wages of sin is eternal life in torment. "Ye shall not surely die." No, you absolutely will die. You shall not continue on in existence, you will die. That is the wages of sin. Death. When did death mean something other than death?

 

[Angelina]

It is unorthodox...there's no two ways about it. :huh:

 

[Phoneman777]

I agree Trekson, soul sleep is a commonly debated subject but that does not make it orthodox. Soul sleep has no roots in Christian orthodoxy. According to historian Philip Schaff, soul sleep was formulated in the mind of a fourth century pantheist named Arnobius. Since then, it has been taken up by athiests and a handful of religious adherents including JWs, Christadelphianists, Old school Armstrongism, and Seventh Day Adventists.

Soul sleep actually has its roots in Scripture, so what Christian Orthodoxy says is irrelevant. I think a more accurate classification for this topic is "controversial" rather than "unorthodox" seeing that the term "orthodox" seems to imply a certain degree of legitimacy based on consensus however biased it may be. If it wasn't for Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, and the rest of the Reformers challenging the fully biased "orthodoxy" of their day, Christians would all still be seeking the intercession of Mary and the saints, all of which are now asleep awaiting one or the other resurrection.

 

[ATP]

Don't worry about the thread being placed in the unorthodox forum. Consider it an honor.

Most of this world believes in the lie of Satan. You have your small collection of human beings that actually believe the truth regarding this matter, and then you have the grand majority who believe otherwise. You have Christians, Buddhists, and spiritualists in all manner who believe exactly what Satan told Eve in the garden of Eden. There is no getting around that. It is Satan who teaches that mankind shall not surely die. But what saith the Scriptures (new AND old Testament):

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Many teach that the wages of sin is eternal life in torment. "Ye shall not surely die." No, you absolutely will die. You shall not continue on in existence, you will die. That is the wages of sin. Death. When did death mean something other than death?

So you believe we sleep until the first resurrection. I'm a little confused on what position you're taking.

 

[Angelina]

Soul sleep actually has its roots in Scripture, so what Christian Orthodoxy says is irrelevant. I think a more accurate classification for this topic is "controversial" rather than "unorthodox" seeing that the term "orthodox" seems to imply a certain degree of legitimacy based on consensus however biased it may be. If it wasn't for Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, and the rest of the Reformers challenging the fully biased "orthodoxy" of their day, Christians would all still be seeking the intercession of Mary and the saints, all of which are now asleep awaiting one or the other resurrection.

Were they Christian or did Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, and the rest of the Reformers come from a perspective of believing that everything is a god including the natural world as pantheism suggests? Orthodoxy can be challenged but not from perspective outside the Christian worldview.... :huh:

 

[lforrest]

I have never had a problem with calling death Sleep as Jesus did. It explains why the dead know nothing Ecclesiastes 9:5.

IMO the soul exists in a dreamlike state when apart from the body. Hence it knows nothing, as knowledge is with-held from us in a dream. But in a dream we react, and the soul will react even as it suffers or rejoices in it's circumstance.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 leads me to believe the soul does not go on to be in heaven immediately after death. But will only do so after the Resurrection of the dead. I believe this verse has made some to think the soul sleeps, as they can't imagine waiting for heaven after death.

I don't think we will have to wait, just as in a dream time doesn't pass as we expect. Eternity will come quickly for those at rest in the Lord. Or he may be our gateway to eternity and we wouldn't have to wait at all.