Soul sleep

[Trekson]

Sorry Butch, But your words: "If Peter is giving this in order the it would seem that the "messengers who sinned," the disobedient angles, are those of Noah's day. I believe these are the angles in prison that Jesus went and made the proclamation to."

don't ring true. There is nothing in scripture that implies the rebellious angels will have an opportunity to repent. His preaching to those in "prison" was while He was in the grave and before His resurrection. Those that advocate "soul sleep" just don't have a leg to stand on, imo.

 

[Angelina]

This topic has been discussed so many times ~ here is that last discussion :huh:

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/20774-asleep-or-alive/?hl=%2Bsoul+%2Bsleep#entry239505

 

[Butch5]

Sorry Butch, But your words: "If Peter is giving this in order the it would seem that the "messengers who sinned," the disobedient angles, are those of Noah's day. I believe these are the angles in prison that Jesus went and made the proclamation to."

don't ring true. There is nothing in scripture that implies the rebellious angels will have an opportunity to repent. His preaching to those in "prison" was while He was in the grave and before His resurrection. Those that advocate "soul sleep" just don't have a leg to stand on, imo.

No one said anything about angels repenting. Regarding the proclamation, it was after the resurrection. This is the only interpretation allowed by the Greek grammar. Also. I don't advocate soul sleep.

This topic has been discussed so many times ~ here is that last discussion :huh:

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/20774-asleep-or-alive/?hl=%2Bsoul+%2Bsleep#entry239505

I wan't debating this, I was simply answering questions for ATP. Others have injected their own thoughts in reply to my posts.

 

[Angelina]

my apologies Butch 5 ^_^ carry on...

 

[Trekson]

Hi Butch, Your words: "This is the only interpretation allowed by the Greek grammar."

There is hardly ever only one interpretation for anything in the Greek. The same words are used for multiple meanings and usually the translators just gave it their "best guess" depending on the context before and after, imo.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch, Your words: "This is the only interpretation allowed by the Greek grammar."

There is hardly ever only one interpretation for anything in the Greek. The same words are used for multiple meanings and usually the translators just gave it their "best guess" depending on the context before and after, imo.

It seems you're defeating your own argument. If you believe the translators gave it their "best guess" then how can you say I'm wrong?

However, as I said, the Greek text requires that the proclamation take place after the resurrection. the tense of the Greek participle is subject to the tense of the main verb. The main verb, preached, is an aorist indicative verb. The words translated, put to death, quickened, and went are participles. The word translated, "put to death" is in the perfect tense and the other two are in the aorist tense. They are past tense. A tense of a verb is relative to the time of the speaker/writer. A past tense verb is something in the past relative to the speaker/writer. A Greek past tense participle is past tense, not to the speaker writer, but rather to the main verb preached. That means that, "put to death," quickened, and went, all took place before, preached. This is required by the grammar, it's not an interpretation of the text is simply a grammatical rule.

my apologies Butch 5 ^_^ carry on...

Thanks, but there's no need for apologies. I'm more than willing to discuss the subject.

 

[ATP]

Hi ATP,

I believe He was making a proclamation to the evil spirits in Tartarus. The KJV translates three different places as hell and it causes much confusion. There are, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. Hades is the grave, Gehenna is the valley outside of Jerusalem and I submit the lake of fire also. Then there is Tartarus, this is a location where God has reserved the evil angles in chains until the judgment.

YLT 2 Peter 2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved, (2Pe 2:4 YLT)

Several translations translate this word Tartarus as hell and it's confusing because people think all three places, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus are the same place, they are not. Consider Peters words.

4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,
5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,
6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them;
7 and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue,
8 for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing. (2Pe 2:4-8 YLT)

If Peter is giving this in order the it would seem that the "messengers who sinned," the disobedient angles, are those of Noah's day. I believe these are the angles in prison that Jesus went and made the proclamation to.


18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,
20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
21 also to which an antitype doth now save us -- baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone on to heaven -- messengers, and authorities, and powers, having been subjected to him.
(1Pe 3:18-22 YLT)

I believe the bolded is what Jesus proclaimed to these spirits in prison, that all authority had been given to Him.

This is good work Butch. I also see that Noah is mentioned in 1 Peter 3 and 2 Peter 2. You even made the distinctions of fallen angels in 2 Peter 2 and 1 Peter 3. Thank you, - ATP

..

New question: Why is there sorrows in hell, and how can the dead speak in hell if everyone is unconscious.

Hell has sorrows: The sorrows of hell (Sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me. 2 Sam 22:6 KJV

The dead speak in Hell, fully aware: The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. Ez 32:21 KJV

Sorry Butch, But your words: "If Peter is giving this in order the it would seem that the "messengers who sinned," the disobedient angles, are those of Noah's day. I believe these are the angles in prison that Jesus went and made the proclamation to."

don't ring true. There is nothing in scripture that implies the rebellious angels will have an opportunity to repent. His preaching to those in "prison" was while He was in the grave and before His resurrection. Those that advocate "soul sleep" just don't have a leg to stand on, imo.

I believe Butch is right. Notice 1 Peter 3:19 says the spirits in prison. I believe this prison is also called the Abyss, Bottomless Pit and Tartarus reserved for Satan and his fallen angels...

Rev 20:1-3 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand, 2and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years, 3and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

[Angelina]

I believe Butch is right. Notice 1 Peter 3:19 says the spirits in prison. I believe this prison is also called the Abyss, Bottomless Pit and Tartarus reserved for Satan and his fallen angels...

ATP The Abbyss spoken of in Revelation has not been opened yet. :huh: The angel fallen from Heaven must first open it and that does not happen until the end. Jesus states that he holds the keys to death and Hades. Revelation 1:18. This is where the spirits in 1 Peter 3:19 were imprisoned.

The fallen angel in Revelation 20 first appears in Revelation 9
Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

The spirits spoken of in 1 Peter 3:19 are not in a pit nor are they in the same place as those who rise from the pit ie: locusts...

 

[ATP]

ATP The Abbyss spoken of in Revelation has not been opened yet. :huh: The angel fallen from Heaven must first open it and that does not happen until the end. Jesus states that he holds the keys to death and Hades. Revelation 1:18. This is where the spirits in 1 Peter 3:19 were imprisoned.

The fallen angel in Revelation 20 first appears in Revelation 9
Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

The spirits spoken of in 1 Peter 3:19 are not in a pit nor are they in the same place as those who rise from the pit ie: locusts...

Ok. That would make more sense.
I was probably getting ahead of myself.
So you're saying that Tartarus/Chains of darkness is the lower parts of Hades somehow?
Thank you, ATP.

 

[Butch5]

This is good work Butch. I also see that Noah is mentioned in 1 Peter 3 and 2 Peter 2. You even made the distinctions of fallen angels in 2 Peter 2 and 1 Peter 3. Thank you, - ATP


New question: Why is there sorrows in hell, and how can the dead speak in hell if everyone is unconscious.

Hell has sorrows: The sorrows of hell (Sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me. 2 Sam 22:6 KJV

The dead speak in Hell, fully aware: The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. Ez 32:21 KJV


I believe Butch is right. Notice 1 Peter 3:19 says the spirits in prison. I believe this prison is also called the Abyss, Bottomless Pit and Tartarus reserved for Satan and his fallen angels...

Rev 20:1-3 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand, 2and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years, 3and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,

HI ATP,

When Scripture speaks of people speaking from Hell and such I believe it is being used metaphorically. We have to take these passages and understand them in a manner that is consistent with the rest of what the Scriptures say about the dead. We can see this metaphor being used right in the beginning of the Bible.

9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. (Gen 4:9-10 KJV)

We know that blood can't literally talk, I think this is obviously a metaphor. I think this is rather common through the Bible.

The passage in 2 Sam. 22 is actually a song. But notice he says the sorrows of hell compassed about me. he was alive saying this was in the past. Compassed is in the past tense.

In Ezekiel 32 notice the use of "her" as metaphor for the nations that are being spoken of. I believe this is the same for those who are out of the midst of the grave.

As I said, we have to make sure that all of the passages are understood in such a way that we can account for all of them in out theology and not have tension between them.


Let me note also that I don't believe that the dead in the graves are unconscious, I believe they are dead, not alive in any form.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Butch, I don't really care for the YLT. In the KJV it reads like this: 1 Pet. 3:18-21 - "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Your words: "The main verb, preached, is an aorist indicative verb. The words translated, put to death, quickened, and went are participles."

I don't consider "preached" to be the main verb. I believe it is "went". In vs. 21, Paul considers baptism to be an equivalent picture whereby we "die" to self and are 'risen" a new creation. While Christ was experiencing "death in the flesh", He was "quickened" (revived, but not yet resurrected) by the Holy Spirit. Going "to the spirits in prison" can only equate with the "grave" certainly not "resurrection!

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch, I don't really care for the YLT. In the KJV it reads like this: 1 Pet. 3:18-21 - "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Your words: "The main verb, preached, is an aorist indicative verb. The words translated, put to death, quickened, and went are participles."

I don't consider "preached" to be the main verb. I believe it is "went". In vs. 21, Paul considers baptism to be an equivalent picture whereby we "die" to self and are 'risen" a new creation. While Christ was experiencing "death in the flesh", He was "quickened" (revived, but not yet resurrected) by the Holy Spirit. Going "to the spirits in prison" can only equate with the "grave" certainly not "resurrection!

Went is a Greek participle, preached is the verb, that's not an opinion that is the grammar. That's just the way language is, it doesn't change based on what we think about it. You can look up what I said in a Greek grammar and see that that is the case with participles.

 

[ATP]

HI ATP,

When Scripture speaks of people speaking from Hell and such I believe it is being used metaphorically. We have to take these passages and understand them in a manner that is consistent with the rest of what the Scriptures say about the dead. We can see this metaphor being used right in the beginning of the Bible.

9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. (Gen 4:9-10 KJV)

We know that blood can't literally talk, I think this is obviously a metaphor. I think this is rather common through the Bible.

The passage in 2 Sam. 22 is actually a song. But notice he says the sorrows of hell compassed about me. he was alive saying this was in the past. Compassed is in the past tense.

In Ezekiel 32 notice the use of "her" as metaphor for the nations that are being spoken of. I believe this is the same for those who are out of the midst of the grave.

As I said, we have to make sure that all of the passages are understood in such a way that we can account for all of them in out theology and not have tension between them.

Thank you for response. Also, do you believe Tartarus/Chains of darkness is the lower parts of Hades somehow? It has to be.

Let me note also that I don't believe that the dead in the graves are unconscious, I believe they are dead, not alive in any form.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Their dead but conscious? Is that possible.

 

[Butch5]

Thank you for response. Also, do you believe Tartarus/Chains of darkness is the lower parts of Hades somehow? It has to be.


I'm not sure what you mean here. Their dead but conscious? Is that possible.

I reject the Greek idea of Hades. The Greek idea of Hades is that it is a place where the spirits or souls of the dead go. The Jews understood sheol or Hades to be the grave. So, to answer your question, no, I believe Tartarus is the lower part of Hades. I believe it is some place that God has reserved for holding those angels.


I believe that when one dies they don't exist anymore until the time that God puts their body back together and resurrects it to life. According to Gen 2:7 God created man from teh dust and breathed His breath/spirit of life into Him and man became a living soul. When a man dies God's breath of life goes back to Him. If a soul consists of a body and the breath of life and the breath of life is gone then there is no longer a soul just a dead body. That body then returns to the dust. There is nothing left.

 

[ATP]

I reject the Greek idea of Hades. The Greek idea of Hades is that it is a place where the spirits or souls of the dead go. The Jews understood sheol or Hades to be the grave.

So what you're saying is the Hebrews got it right by saying Sheol is the grave, but the Greek got it wrong by saying Hades is where souls that are alive go. I can agree with that.

I believe Tartarus is the lower part of Hades. I believe it is some place that God has reserved for holding those angels.

I agree with that.

 

[Angelina]

I reject the Greek idea of Hades. The Greek idea of Hades is that it is a place where the spirits or souls of the dead go. The Jews understood sheol or Hades to be the grave. So, to answer your question, no, I believe Tartarus is the lower part of Hades. I believe it is some place that God has reserved for holding those angels.


I believe that when one dies they don't exist anymore until the time that God puts their body back together and resurrects it to life. According to Gen 2:7 God created man from teh dust and breathed His breath/spirit of life into Him and man became a living soul. When a man dies God's breath of life goes back to Him. If a soul consists of a body and the breath of life and the breath of life is gone then there is no longer a soul just a dead body. That body then returns to the dust. There is nothing left.

Wishful thinking on your part Butch 5. If you don't exist anymore why would God bother to put you back together for judgment day. If you are saying that even believers die and cease to exist until God puts them back together, then why does the bible tell us that people who have died are in the kingdom of heaven and very much alive?

We are tripartite beings just as God is three in one. We are spirit, we have a soul and we live in a vehicle called a body/tent.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The bible tells us that there are believers already in heaven

Matthew 8:11
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 12
26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 13
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.

 

[Butch5]

So what you're saying is the Hebrews got it right by saying Sheol is the grave, but the Greek got it wrong by saying Hades is where souls that are alive go. I can agree with that.


I agree with that.

Yes, if you look at history you can see what was believed by these different people groups. I think it's pretty clear that the prevalent idea among the Greek in Jesus' day was that of Plato. If you look at the history of the Jews they didn't, for the most part, believe that man was a spirit that could live without a body. There was one sect among the Jews, the Essenes who were mystics and didn't hold to the typical Jewish thinking, but they aren't even mentioned in the Scriptures.

Wishful thinking on your part Butch 5. If you don't exist anymore why would God bother to put you back together for judgment day. If you are saying that even believers die and cease to exist until God puts them back together, then why does the bible tell us that people who have died are in the kingdom of heaven and very much alive?

We are tripartite beings just as God is three in one. We are spirit, we have a soul and we live in a vehicle called a body/tent.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The bible tells us that there are believers already in heaven

Matthew 8:11
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 12
26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 13
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.

Hi Angelina,

Actually, according to Scripture man is a two part being. Gen 2:7 tells us that God created the man from the dust of the ground. So, whatever a man is he consists of the dust of the ground.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

After forming the man God then did something else, He breathed His breath/spirit of life into the man and the man became something. He became a living soul. We can surmise from this that a living soul consists of a man created from the dust and the breath/spirit of life.

None of the passages you posted here say that man is a spirit that lives in a body. The passages may seem to suggest that if one presupposes that man is a spirit, however, without the idea being taught somewhere is Scripture, it cannot be stated as fact. What I've presented above is clearly stated in Scripture.

I will address the passages above as not to appear to avoid them.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We can see that this passage give the answer itself. It is Paul's desire that God sanctify them "completely." He then goes one to identify them completely, a soul, that consists of a body and spirit.

Matthew 8:11
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

This passage of Scripture is speaking of the kingdom when Christ returns.

Mark 12
26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

This passage too, give us the answer. This passage is speaking of the resurrection, not the current state of the dead. Notice the verse starts with "but concerning the dead, that they rise." It doesn't say the dead are alive now.


Luke 13
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.

This passage too, is speaking of the kingdom when Christ returns.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Butch, Your words: "Went is a Greek participle, preached is the verb, that's not an opinion that is the grammar. That's just the way language is, it doesn't change based on what we think about it. You can look up what I said in a Greek grammar and see that that is the case with participles."

I'm not a Greek or Hebrew scholar but I lean on someone better. John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

When you combine that with 1 Co. 2:14 - "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So in many cases we have to decide between what the words actually say, or what they really mean. The not so obvious truth behind the wording. In my life, if there appears to be a discrepancy between the correct usage of grammar and the truth as stated within the context of the whole written word, I tend to lean towards what the Holy Spirit shows me. In this case, His leading is telling me He went to the "prison" while He was in the grave, not after He was resurrected.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch, Your words: "Went is a Greek participle, preached is the verb, that's not an opinion that is the grammar. That's just the way language is, it doesn't change based on what we think about it. You can look up what I said in a Greek grammar and see that that is the case with participles."

I'm not a Greek or Hebrew scholar but I lean on someone better. John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

When you combine that with 1 Co. 2:14 - "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So in many cases we have to decide between what the words actually say, or what they really mean. The not so obvious truth behind the wording. In my life, if there appears to be a discrepancy between the correct usage of grammar and the truth as stated within the context of the whole written word, I tend to lean towards what the Holy Spirit shows me. In this case, His leading is telling me He went to the "prison" while He was in the grave, not after He was resurrected.

The passage you quoted from John 16 was spoken to the apostles, it wasn't a universal statement that pertains to everyone. Here's where problems arise, many Christians claim that what they believe comes to them from the Holy Spirit, yet many of these same Christians believe opposing doctrines. Some believe that salvation can be lost and some claim it can't be and both sides claim to be lead to this belief by the Spirit. Since two opposing things can't both be true at the same time at least one of these two are wrong, yet still claim their belief is from the Holy Spirit. I don't believe the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth is going to be teaching Christians erroneous teachings. Therefore I have to conclude that some of these Christians who claim to be lead to this belief by the Spirit are simply wrong. If they're wrong then at best their belief comes from their own mind and at worst they are deceived.

In addition, this is subjective. The Scriptures tell us to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is in us. In order for us to be able to give an answer we need to have an objective argument not a subjective one. Telling an unbeliever that the Bible means this to me because the Holy Spirit told me so is not proof, since one, no one can verify that, and two, you haven't even proven to the unbeliever that there is a Holy Spirit.

You spoke of going to the whole of Scripture, yet it doesn't appear to me that you've done that. Rather it appears to me that you've appealed to a presupposition. The apostle John said that the Word became flesh. If we look at the whole of Scripture we find that, the dead know nothing, that the dead cannot praise God, that the dead have no memory, and so on. How does Jesus preaching while dead align with this?

The grammar on the other hand isn't subjective. It doesn't change depending on who is looking at it. No matter who reads it is says the same thing. The difference comes from the presuppositions we bring to the text. It's just like the creation evolution debate. The creationist and the evolutionist both have the same evidence to consider. The difference is in the presuppositions they bring to the evidence. The creationist approaches the evidence with the understanding that God created the world, the evolutionist approaches the evidence that the natural world have simply evolved. The evolutionist sees the evidence, but does he see God? No.

The answer is in addressing the presuppositions that are brought to the evidence. If we come to the text presupposing that man is a spirit that can live without a body we'll likely see that in the text. Unless that idea can be clearly established from the text there is no basis to simply assume it.

 

[ATP]

The answer is in addressing the presuppositions that are brought to the evidence. If we come to the text presupposing that man is a spirit that can live without a body we'll likely see that in the text. Unless that idea can be clearly established from the text there is no basis to simply assume it.

Kinda like how Non-OSAS quote Heb 6:4-6 but ignore verse 7-8 about the seed and the farmer. People use certain verses to fit their beliefs, but do not see the whole context.