Sound Doctrine

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Nancy

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I agree with @bbyrd009 here...I don't buy that.
I have never feared the Lord...I was afraid of not ending up with Him, before I got saved...but I didn't fear Him then, and I don't fear Him now.
I have a godly fear of disappointing Him...and not having His smile..
but, fear of Him..never...
Since a tiny girl I have always known He was on my side...He is good, and He is my Father.

So..if that is the measure of pure doctrine ..I don't have any, and wouldn't want any under those circumstances. :)
I did fear God when I was unsaved. Since being saved and realizing that He is a loving Father, more loving than any earthly father could be; I no longer fear Him like that. Why would He want us to be afraid of Him? That does not sound like a loving father. Reverence, respect and awe yes! But fear after being told He is the God of all comfort? Has anyone looked up the translations of the words "fear" as used in scripture? I wonder if have different meanings. I do not know Greek but...I am pretty sure you do @Episkopos ? :)
 

Helen

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I did fear God when I was unsaved. Since being saved and realizing that He is a loving Father, more loving than any earthly father could be; I no longer fear Him like that. Why would He want us to be afraid of Him? That does not sound like a loving father. Reverence, respect and awe yes! But fear after being told He is the God of all comfort? Has anyone looked up the translations of the words "fear" as used in scripture? I wonder if have different meanings. I do not know Greek but...I am pretty sure you do @Episkopos ? :)

Good point.

But even when I wasn't saved I didn't fear Him...He was always my "go-to" place...I didn't 'know Him' but I believed in Him.
Whenever in I was in trouble, sad, or worried, I would always talk to Him. I can't remember not!! :)

Interesting eh!
 

Episkopos

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I did fear God when I was unsaved. Since being saved and realizing that He is a loving Father, more loving than any earthly father could be; I no longer fear Him like that. Why would He want us to be afraid of Him? That does not sound like a loving father. Reverence, respect and awe yes! But fear after being told He is the God of all comfort? Has anyone looked up the translations of the words "fear" as used in scripture? I wonder if have different meanings. I do not know Greek but...I am pretty sure you do @Episkopos ? :)


It does say..."fear and trembling." God loves for people to fear Him. It takes faith to do that. We are supposed to "tremble at His word".

I remember having a vision one morning...it was about a minister I was traveling with. In that vision the Lord's angel was passing over in judgment over people. I was sitting on the front stoop of a house when I saw it. The judgment came close to me (on my neighbours) but "passed over" me. But I came out of that vision actually shaking. The fear of the Lord was so real.

I think when we realize how impartial God is in judgment...and how close judgment has come...we literally tremble.
 

Nancy

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It does say..."fear and trembling." God loves for people to fear Him. It takes faith to do that. We are supposed to "tremble at His word".

I remember having a vision one morning...it was about a minister I was traveling with. In that vision the Lord's angel was passing over in judgment over people. I was sitting on the front stoop of a house when I saw it. The judgment came close to me (on my neighbours) but "passed over" me. But I came out of that vision actually shaking. The fear of the Lord was so real.

I think when we realize how impartial God is in judgment...and how close judgment has come...we literally tremble.

"God loves for people to fear Him." If that is true, I cannot see myself ever approaching His throne boldly as we are instructed. When Jesus prayed, He always looked up and it seems, when we pray, we bow our heads as if we need to always be ashamed of ourselves. I can see the "shame" posture possibly applying to a prayer of repentance, if there is sin, there should be shame until you repent.
The thought of a Father who always want's me to be afraid kind of sucks the joy out of The Father I have come to know and love.
 

Episkopos

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"God loves for people to fear Him." If that is true, I cannot see myself ever approaching His throne boldly as we are instructed. When Jesus prayed, He always looked up and it seems, when we pray, we bow our heads as if we need to always be ashamed of ourselves. I can see the "shame" posture possibly applying to a prayer of repentance, if there is sin, there should be shame until you repent.
The thought of a Father who always want's me to be afraid kind of sucks the joy out of The Father I have come to know and love.


I don't think He wants us to be fearful for His sake. But for our own. A person who fears God will be extra careful to do what is right.

I think the requirement may vary from person to person. We can be confident in the Lord and come boldly before Him. But there is a difference between being bold when necessary...and just always being bold.

I see it as a timing thing...but also how God chooses to reveal Himself.

Another time I was very afraid was when the Spirit came over me as if He weighed a ton...I couldn't breathe for the weight. It felt like I was at the bottom of the sea....and yet although I had no breath in me a big voice came out of me to correct a brother. I thought I was going to die.

But when the Spirit lifted away I wanted Him to return! :)

So the fear is mixed in with comfort.
 
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Nancy

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I don't think He wants us to be fearful for His sake. But for our own. A person who fears God will be extra careful to do what is right.

I think the requirement may vary from person to person. We can be confident in the Lord and come boldly before Him. But there is a difference between being bold when necessary...and just always being bold.

I see it as a timing thing...but also how God chooses to reveal Himself.

Another time I was very afraid was when the Spirit came over me as if He weighed a ton...I couldn't breathe for the weight. It felt like I was at the bottom of the sea....and yet although I had no breath in me a big voice came out of me to correct a brother. I thought I was going to die.

But when the Spirit lifted away I wanted Him to return! :)

So the fear is mixed in with comfort.

"A person who fears God will be extra careful to do what is right."
Maybe, you could also say that a person who LOVES God will be extra careful to do what is right because their new nature desires to please God :)
 

Episkopos

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"A person who fears God will be extra careful to do what is right."
Maybe, you could also say that a person who LOVES God will be extra careful to do what is right because their new nature desires to please God :)


For sure. I don't know how God deals with other people. Perfect love casts out all fear. Maybe some of us still need some fear of God in our lives.
 
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Nancy

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For sure. I don't know how God deals with other people. Perfect love casts out all fear. Maybe some of us still need some fear of God in our lives.
Lol...got a point there, perhaps some who stomp on His grace? License to sin kind of folk who listen to a watered down Gospel. Makes sense.
 
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Helen

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For sure. I don't know how God deals with other people. Perfect love casts out all fear. Maybe some of us still need some fear of God in our lives.

I’m with @Nancy on this one....if I was fearful of my husband it wouldn’t be a very happy or honest marriage. I know wives who are afraid of their husbands...We are called into union, not fear.
Who wants a realationship where the wife only comes to the husband through fear...o_O
I can’t agree with you on his one. Sorry.
 
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brakelite

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Don't mistake God's mercy for His favouritism and final judgment....and don't lose the purpose of your calling in Christ. If you judge...you will be judged...and the one you judge will take your place.
Reminded of the parable of the servant forgiven of his great debt, then sent a fellow servant to jail until his small debt was paid.
I thought to add....

We are not like God. If we went to a junkyard to look for a wreck to restore, we would choose the car with the least amount of rust....not the most.

God is more like a doctor looking for the most desperate cases. And that was us at one time. ;)

All praise to His name! :)
KJV 1 Corinthians 1
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

The thing is though, we can be like God, having the mind of Christ. I read a quote some time ago which affected me greatly regarding the meaning of meekness. Meaning to endure with patience the burdens that the sin of others places upon us.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Proverbs 8:13
[13] The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

I’m wondering, if asked, how many here would say they hate evil? Most if not all, would likely answer, “Yes. I hate evil. I hate pride. I hate the evil way. I hate the froward mouth.” Then His word says THIS “to hate evil” IS to fear the Lord and the beginning of wisdom. Job 28:28 “And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.”

If asked, How many would answer they are fully conscious that we are to depart from evil? Again His word says this “departing from evil” is wisdom. Psalm 19:9-11 “The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. [10] More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. [11] Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.”

Some key words there: The fear of the Lord “is clean”. Consider Genesis 35:2 “Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:” and John 15:3-4 “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.”

“The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever.” Love believes all things, Hopes all things, And endures all things.
By fear: thy servant is warned.

Psalm 25:14
[14] The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant. — “the Revelation of Jesus Christ 1 Peter 1:13
[13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Psalm 33:18-19
[18] Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; [19] To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. Amos 8:11 “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God , that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord :” to deliver their soul from death ...Hebrews 2:15 “And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”

Proverbs 16:6-7
[6] By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil. [7] When a man's ways please the Lord , he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

There is nothing wrong with fearing the Lord but in fear of the Lord, is life. 1 John 4:18 is a salvation verse. 1 John 4:18 is a “the Revelation of Jesus Christ” verse. “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.”

Perfect love which IS Christ cast out “torment”. perfect love casts out death. perfect love casts out the curse. Perfect love cast out evil in light of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. perfect love brings peace and a sound mind. perfect love reveals His covenant of peace. He that has “torment” has not been made clean yet, has not changed their garments yet, and has not been made perfect in Christ.
 
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Episkopos

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Proverbs 8:13
[13] The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

I’m wondering, if asked, how many here would say they hate evil? Most if not all, would likely answer, “Yes. I hate evil. I hate pride. I hate the evil way. I hate the froward mouth.” Then His word says THIS “to hate evil” IS to fear the Lord and the beginning of wisdom. Job 28:28 “And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.”

If asked, How many would answer they are fully conscious that we are to depart from evil? Again His word says this “departing from evil” is wisdom. Psalm 19:9-11 “The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. [10] More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. [11] Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.”

Some key words there: The fear of the Lord “is clean”. Consider Genesis 35:2 “Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:” and John 15:3-4 “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.”

“The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever.” Love believes all things, Hopes all things, And endures all things.
By fear: thy servant is warned.

Psalm 25:14
[14] The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant. — “the Revelation of Jesus Christ 1 Peter 1:13
[13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Psalm 33:18-19
[18] Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; [19] To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. Amos 8:11 “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God , that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord :” to deliver their soul from death ...Hebrews 2:15 “And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”

Proverbs 16:6-7
[6] By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil. [7] When a man's ways please the Lord , he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

There is nothing wrong with fearing the Lord but in fear of the Lord, is life. 1 John 4:18 is a salvation verse. 1 John 4:18 is a “the Revelation of Jesus Christ” verse. “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.”

Perfect love which IS Christ cast out “torment”. perfect love casts out death. perfect love casts out the curse. Perfect love cast out evil in light of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. perfect love brings peace and a sound mind. perfect love reveals His covenant of peace. He that has “torment” has not been made clean yet, has not changed their garments yet, and has not been made perfect in Christ.

I think the fear of the Lord is unlike any other kind of fear. It is mixed in with a comfort and a purity. God is the final authority and judge....as such we are wise to fear in this way.

An actual encounter with God will provide the fear. Even if the visitation is for a good thing...the sheer scale of God is unnerving.
 

Prayer Warrior

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I agree with @bbyrd009 here...I don't buy that.
I have never feared the Lord...I was afraid of not ending up with Him, before I got saved...but I didn't fear Him then, and I don't fear Him now.
I have a godly fear of disappointing Him...and not having His smile..
but, fear of Him..never...
Since a tiny girl I have always known He was on my side...He is good, and He is my Father.

So..if that is the measure of pure doctrine ..I don't have any, and wouldn't want any under those circumstances. :)

For believers, I don't think that fearing the Lord is the same as being afraid of Him. It means that we reverence Him and recognize that He is Lord of all. I'm sure you're familiar with some of the Proverbs that talk about the fear of the Lord.

Proverbs 9:11--The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Proverbs 1:7--The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

Proverbs 10:27--The fear of the Lord prolongs days....

Proverbs 19:23--The fear of the Lord leads to life, so that one may sleep satisfied, untouched by evil.

Proverbs 14:27--The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, that one may avoid the snares of death.

Proverbs 22:4--By the humility and fear of the Lord are riches and honor and life.
 
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charity

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I have posted this topic here...for reasons that will soon become apparent.

Let me begin by saying that sound doctrine is that which PERMITS us and INFORMS us to be Christ-like in our thoughts and actions. Opinions matter for nothing...unless to take away our potential for entering into Christ and His life, love, joy, and peace.

So then sound doctrine is to be noted by the BEHAVIOUR of the person holding to that doctrine.

Now, we all know this verse...

2 Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires.

But everybody thinks that what they believe is both biblical and sound....even when it is proven otherwise. :)

People usually like the idea of sound doctrine...that is, until they become indoctrinated in a false belief...THEN they HATE sound doctrine. But this is to really hate one's own advancement in understanding God's ways.

'Hold fast the form of sound words,
which thou hast heard of me,
in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

(2 Tim 1:13)

Hello there, @Episkopos,

We need be in no doubt as to what 'sound doctrine' is, if we note who wrote the words you quote from 2 Timothy. It was written by Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, and the one to whom the revelation concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ was made known. It is this 'form of sound words', which was committed to Timothy by Paul, and to which he was to 'Hold Fast'. These are the sound words, which particularly apply to this dispensation of grace. (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus) which are built on the foundational teaching of the epistle to the Romans. This is 'sound doctrine' indeed, which we can all read, digest and appropriate for our learning and manner of life. We need no other,

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

stunnedbygrace

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I do fear Him. There is some sort of dread mixed in my love. But the dread is...because I have never known such a love in my life that would love me so much it would strip me of everything, even every comfort, in order to have me and keep me.

There is a dread in knowing I have to give up my entire life to find it.

Does any man read Job without experiencing both joy And some sort of dread?
 

Nancy

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Proverbs 8:13
[13] The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

I’m wondering, if asked, how many here would say they hate evil? Most if not all, would likely answer, “Yes. I hate evil. I hate pride. I hate the evil way. I hate the froward mouth.” Then His word says THIS “to hate evil” IS to fear the Lord and the beginning of wisdom. Job 28:28 “And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.”

If asked, How many would answer they are fully conscious that we are to depart from evil? Again His word says this “departing from evil” is wisdom. Psalm 19:9-11 “The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. [10] More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. [11] Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.”

Some key words there: The fear of the Lord “is clean”. Consider Genesis 35:2 “Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:” and John 15:3-4 “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.”

“The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever.” Love believes all things, Hopes all things, And endures all things.
By fear: thy servant is warned.

Psalm 25:14
[14] The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant. — “the Revelation of Jesus Christ 1 Peter 1:13
[13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Psalm 33:18-19
[18] Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; [19] To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. Amos 8:11 “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God , that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord :” to deliver their soul from death ...Hebrews 2:15 “And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”

Proverbs 16:6-7
[6] By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil. [7] When a man's ways please the Lord , he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

There is nothing wrong with fearing the Lord but in fear of the Lord, is life. 1 John 4:18 is a salvation verse. 1 John 4:18 is a “the Revelation of Jesus Christ” verse. “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.”

Perfect love which IS Christ cast out “torment”. perfect love casts out death. perfect love casts out the curse. Perfect love cast out evil in light of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. perfect love brings peace and a sound mind. perfect love reveals His covenant of peace. He that has “torment” has not been made clean yet, has not changed their garments yet, and has not been made perfect in Christ.
Great post and, I do not remember that verse about: " The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate." 'Good word' as @"ByGrace" would say, lol.
 
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brakelite

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I think the fear of the Lord is unlike any other kind of fear. It is mixed in with a comfort and a purity. God is the final authority and judge....as such we are wise to fear in this way.
Fear of the Lord has nothing to do with being afraid. I would prefer to describe it as a healthy awe and deep reverence. As Christians we have no fear of the judgement of God, as Daniel tells us through the holy Spirit
KJV Daniel 7
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

How can we be afraid of God's righteous judgment when it is Christ's righteousness by which we are judged?? It we are in the Son, and the Son is already accepted, then judgement is ours, along with the promise that the meek inherit the earth.
Our reverence and awe for God is born from our admiration and appreciation for all He has done... Behold what manner of love is this that we should be called the children of God!!! We fear because we love... The fear isn't replaced by love. That is an entirely different fear altogether.
 

Nancy

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Fear of the Lord has nothing to do with being afraid. I would prefer to describe it as a healthy awe and deep reverence. As Christians we have no fear of the judgement of God, as Daniel tells us through the holy Spirit
KJV Daniel 7
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

How can we be afraid of God's righteous judgment when it is Christ's righteousness by which we are judged?? It we are in the Son, and the Son is already accepted, then judgement is ours, along with the promise that the meek inherit the earth.
Our reverence and awe for God is born from our admiration and appreciation for all He has done... Behold what manner of love is this that we should be called the children of God!!! We fear because we love... The fear isn't replaced by love. That is an entirely different fear altogether.
Agreed! Good post.
Fear=punishment, Christians should not fear punishment. Our sins have been paid for, taken away and forgotten by God...He remembers them no more...as far as the East is from the West. Now, doesn't that make you want to learn to love Him more? Know our Creator and please Him?
 
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brakelite

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Agreed! Good post.
Fear=punishment, Christians should not fear punishment. Our sins have been paid for, taken away and forgotten by God...He remembers them no more...as far as the East is from the West. Now, doesn't that make you want to learn to love Him more? Know our Creator and please Him?
I get what you are saying, but don't agree that our sins are yet forgotten. They are still on record in the books of heaven... They don't get wiped clean until probation closes. Then, they are cast away and forgotten. Nevertheless, yes, so long as we are in Christ, there ought to be no fear.
 

Enoch111

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I get what you are saying, but don't agree that our sins are yet forgotten. They are still on record in the books of heaven... They don't get wiped clean until probation closes. Then, they are cast away and forgotten.
This is Ellen G. White's understanding. But it is a MISUNDERSTANDING.
 
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