Source or Resource? - Understanding the difference

[St. SteVen]

Amen!

Thanks for joining us.
Would you like to suggest a resource
that is meaningful to you to be added
to the list below?


Source:
- God


Resources:
- The Bible
- Commentaries
- Preachers/teachers
- Other believers
- Unbelievers (listen)

Other resource ideas?

/

 

[Mr E]

Gideon is sometimes criticized for laying out a fleece twice when the Lord "seemed"
to have communicated clearly to him. But we weren't there.

One of those --'guess you had to be there' moments. They also cast lots to pick a replacement for Judas, not to mention that it was common practice in the old testament times to do this-- to determine God's will.

And don't forget the urim and thurim.

In some ways-- they had more faith than we.

 

[St. SteVen]

One of those --'guess you had to be there' moments. They also cast lots to pick a replacement for Judas, not to mention that it was common practice in the old testament times to do this-- to determine God's will.

And don't forget the urim and thurim.

In some ways-- they had more faith than we.

Yes. Makes you wonder.

Even with a transformed mind, the best we can hope for is the
ability to "be able to test and approve what God’s will is".

Romans 12:2 NIV
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

/

 

[lforrest]

This came up on another topic. Seemed to be worth its own topic.

Understanding the difference between the SOURCE and a RESOURCE.
God should be our SOURCE. Everything else is a RESOURCE. (including the Bible)

Source:
- God

Resources:
- The Bible
- Commentaries
- Preachers/teachers
- Other believers
- Unbelievers (listen)

Other resource ideas?

/ @Spyder

Source of Truth?

The original creator is the only authoritative source of Truth about their work. Anyone relating what they see and hear is repeating. Not all resources are equal. Even artists, who also create, only imitate. Even when inspired it turns into more of a collaboration with God.

 

[amadeus]

When there was only 'the church' under the original apostles and the 5 fold ministry and elders at the local levels the gospel went to the world. But when the church of Rome took over and progressively controlled the NT writings I think things went awry. To the point that the people had no access to any writings until the printing press of the 1500's.

My point being, concerning your last sentence, is this;; how did people 'look to Him' without access to a bible which was never in the people's hands for centuries? Did God want it that way?

But... during those centuries you mention, when people did not have a written Bible of their own and perhaps many or most of them were also illiterate, was no one saved? Did no one encounter God?

God always, I believe, has had His Way available to anyone who was looking and seeking the Truth. Where was the written text of Enoch or Noah or Abraham? Our God is always able however difficult or impossible the situation may appear to be to men.

Ac 17:22	Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Ac 17:23	For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Ac 17:24	God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Ac 17:25	Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Ac 17:26	And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Ac 17:27	That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 

[Phil .]

Thanks for joining us.
Would you like to suggest a resource
that is meaningful to you to be added
to the list below?


Source:
- God


Resources:
- The Bible
- Commentaries
- Preachers/teachers
- Other believers
- Unbelievers (listen)

Other resource ideas?

/

Thanks! Great to be here. I created a website to share the Message. ActualityOfBeing.com. I like sharing that. I’m not sure I’d call it a resource though, as it’s really just a pointing to going to Source. Maybe that’s a resource in a way. ‍Thanks for asking!!

 

[Hillsage]

Yes. Makes you wonder.

Even with a transformed mind, the best we can hope for is the
ability to "be able to test and approve what God’s will is".

Romans 12:2 NIV
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

/

O boy, here we go already. I really don't like the NIV on this verse. Compare the single Greek word translated as "test and approve" in the NIV, in comparison to KJV, NKJ, RSV, NAS and YLT where they all have the same 'one word' "PROVE".

By Strong's definition the single Greek word means LITERALLY or FIGURATIVELY to test, but by IMPLICATION it means to prove

1381 dokimazo: to test (lit. or fig.); by impl. to approve

Here's where it gets interesting IMO. The root word for the compound word dokimazo is dokimos which sheds a whole new light on the word's real meaning.

1384 dokimos: prop. acceptable (current after assayal), i.e. approved

IOW, we aren't 'testing the bible' or 'testing to see what the bible really meant'. It means are we passing the test of God's will in any temptation or trial that the bible says we will face in life? Only when we are "not being conformed to the pattern of this world", which is testing and trying us in our Christian walks, do we pass the assayal test.

It's like the old cowboy movies where the guy 'bites' the nugget to 'proof test' whether it is really gold or not.

 

[MA2444]

This is true..... they have far less filters in place than we, as adults have installed. Have you ever sat and listened carefully to a young child tell about a dream they just had? It's fascinating-- pure and unembellished.

BTW-- I believe dreams are among the best sources. One can say God is the only source, but how does God communicate with us? Some say -the bible- and it's a massive book of stories-- about dreams.

I sure have. That's what I'm talking about!

If I was right in my other thread and we was alive in heaven before we was in the womb here on earth, then newborns were just with the Lord! Have you ever talked about the Lord to a one week old baby? Or asked them questions?!

I read in the book of Enoch that when Noah was born, he came forth glowing and singing praises to the Lord. It scared the pee out them all so they went to Enoch (the Grandpa) and asked him if this is ok, and Enoch assured them that everything's fine!

Kinda makes me want to talk to a baby, but dangit, they're grown now, lol

 

[St. SteVen]

But... during those centuries you mention, when people did not have a written Bible of their own and perhaps many or most of them were also illiterate, was no one saved? Did no one encounter God?

Yes!
Illiteracy was another key point. Thanks.

How could someone find God in the Bible if they can't read? (brilliant)

"... and without a preacher, how will they HEAR..." (not read)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks! Great to be here. I created a website to share the Message. ActualityOfBeing.com. I like sharing that. I’m not sure I’d call it a resource though, as it’s really just a pointing to going to Source. Maybe that’s a resource in a way. ‍Thanks for asking!!

It looks like you are promoting eastern mysticism with that website. Well, more than promoting...
Sessions at $150.00 each? (guided imagery meditation?) I suppose. Quotes from the Maharishi?
Most Christians on here would object, I suppose. I don't mind, but be careful.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

O boy, here we go already. I really don't like the NIV on this verse. Compare the single Greek word translated as "test and approve" in the NIV, in comparison to KJV, NKJ, RSV, NAS and YLT where they all have the same 'one word' "PROVE".

By Strong's definition the single Greek word means LITERALLY or FIGURATIVELY to test, but by IMPLICATION it means to prove

1381 dokimazo: to test (lit. or fig.); by impl. to approve

Seems like hairsplitting to me.
Since Strong's reads: 1381 dokimazo: to test (lit. or fig.); by impl. to approve
And the NIV reads:

Romans 12:2 NIV
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

@Spyder
Thanks for the topic idea. This is going well. - LOL

/

 

[St. SteVen]

It's like the old cowboy movies where the guy 'bites' the nugget to 'proof test' whether it is really gold or not.

That's a good analogy.

I used to put this verse on a pedestal. Seemed very meaningful to me.
And I guess I believe in the transformed (conformed/brainwashed?) aspect. ???

But not much of a payoff.
A transformed mind and the best you can hope for is to PROVE what God's will is?
Are you seeing more than I am here?

Those operating by the pattern of the world don't know. (inferred)
And we can TRY to know by "proving" (testing?) to see.
But we still have to decide based on the "proof". (proving) ???


Romans 12:2 NIV
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

/

 

[Hillsage]

But... during those centuries you mention, when people did not have a written Bible of their own and perhaps many or most of them were also illiterate, was no one saved? Did no one encounter God?

God always, I believe, has had His Way available to anyone who was looking and seeking the Truth. Where was the written text of Enoch or Noah or Abraham? Our God is always able however difficult or impossible the situation may appear to be to men.

Ac 17:22	Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Ac 17:23	For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Ac 17:24	God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Ac 17:25	Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Ac 17:26	And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Ac 17:27	That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Yes they did, and that's the point we are making I think. I always say don't worship the 'book of God', worship the 'God of the book'. That's the problem I think Steven made initially. We have too many translations being made GOD by people here. Whereas I study lots of translations hoping that the Spirit enlightens the eyes of my heart to get the best picture possible. Just like that last verse I broke down dealing with one word.


Another verse is really the one that I did my study on decades ago. And it was;

The word “approved” in the Greek refers to being ‘tested’ or assayed 'as to being the real thing'. You are not "approved" just because you give lip service to a 'correct’ doctrinal statement of faith. You are "approved" if ‘what you talk/believe’ manifests, when you are ‘tested’. But if you fail the temptation or test, and compromise in your ‘walk’ you then show yourself to be un-approved. And it matters not one bit if what you 'say you believe' is true or not. On the day of judgement, you will not be judged for your TALK, but for your WALK.

Seems like hairsplitting to me.
Since Strong's reads: 1381 dokimazo: to test (lit. or fig.); by impl. to approve
And the NIV reads:

Romans 12:2 NIV
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

/

Yes, hair splitting is exactly right. Maybe you understood it better the first time you read it. I did not. I truly took it to mean I just needed to study the bible and then the Holy Spirit would have something in my brain that He could bring to the surface at the right time. But maybe that is just one side of a two sided coin and either side represents the same value.

 

[Hillsage]

That's a good analogy.

I used to put this verse on a pedestal. Seemed very meaningful to me.
And I guess I believe in the transformed (conformed/brainwashed?) aspect. ???

But not much of a payoff.
A transformed mind and the best you can hope for is to PROVE what God's will is?
Are you seeing more than I am here?

Nope, I think we think pretty much the same.

Those operating by the pattern of the world don't know. (inferred)
And we can TRY to know by "proving" (testing?) to see.
But we still have to decide based on the "proof". (proving) ???


Romans 12:2 NIV
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

/

I just know that from my 2 years in jail ministry every week, how many jailhouse conversions took a 'similar' verse which I quoted earlier with the same word in it.

2TI 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Since these guys had 24 hours a day to study the bible, many of them thought they were more approved than me. Especially when I first got to the jail ministry. Many would study some pet controversial (no surprise) doctrines well, and then fight (no surprise) to win the arguments against Christians who knew Jesus better, but not the bible. They did it with so many other 'newbie jail ministers' who also mis-figured that they had to know the bible better than 'jailbirds'. I saw many Christians who only lasted long enough to be humbled.

But, as you know, these guys really didn't know me. So after I PROVED to them I knew a 'whole lot more controversies', as well as the 'whole bible' than all of them, they actually started coming in bigger numbers. The jail ended up giving me a room of my own and I always went to the B POD (longer sentences) where they'd house 50, and take 15 or so and we'd leave the pod (without an officer, which kind of freaked me the first few times.) But they'd give me a room # and go to a room with a big enough table and chairs to sit them all down. Every Tuesday I dreaded the thought of going at 7 pm. And every Tuesday night I'd leave invigorated because I came. Sometimes being told; "No visitors after 10, you have to go."

In those sessions I explained to them what that word "approved" really meant. I'd share how 'they' can't show themselves "approved" until they get out, into the world. Because that's where the 'spirits/things' that got them in jail were ruling strong, and that's why they weren't tempted with it in jail. But I'd still have arguments with those 'over zealous' new believers, who thought they were going to get out and go back and "save their homies" I repeatedly told them "Don't do it. You aren't strong enough. You need to change 'playmates, play-places and playthings to get stronger." They thought they knew better....and it was always a heart-breaker, when I'd show up some Tuesday night, months after they'd gotten out, and there they were again.

Jail ministry is where I came up with my 'saying'; "I'd rather WALK it RIGHT and TALK it WRONG....Than TALK it RIGHT and WALK it WRONG." That's the definition of being "approved unto God"....from my side of the coin....or split hair.

 

[MA2444]

Yes!
Illiteracy was another key point. Thanks.

How could someone find God in the Bible if they can't read? (brilliant)

"... and without a preacher, how will they HEAR..." (not read)

/

I heard a testimony one time from some type of Christian Missionary and they were going to meet some tribe that had never been visited by missionaries before. It was on some island somewhere. And he said when they got there they were greeted and welcomed and they took them and fed them and then they began to share the gospel nessage with them.

And the tribesman began speaking up and interjecting thoughts and responses but they acted like they have heard this before. They knew Jesus! To his knowledge they were the first to ever come to the Island with bibles and the gospel message. So he asked the tribesman where did you learn these things? And the tribesman said, from the teacher who comes. And then they described a divine robed figure that has been coming to their camp and teaching them about God.

I thought that was an awesome testimony and it does sound like something the Lord would do for them. If it was Jesus or an Angel which came to them, I don't know. But Jesus knows His own timetable so He maybe wanted to help out save His people and some time. Time is short right now!

 

[St. SteVen]

I just know that from my 2 years in jail ministry every week, how many jailhouse conversions took a 'similar' verse which I quoted earlier with the same word in it.

Interesting to learn that you did jail ministry for a few years.
One more thing we have in common.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

I thought that was an awesome testimony and it does sound like something the Lord would do for them. If it was Jesus or an Angel which came to them, I don't know. But Jesus knows His own timetable so He maybe wanted to help out save His people and some time. Time is short right now!

Awesome testimony, thanks.

Every tribe, tongue, and nation...

He's got a plan.

/

 

[Spyder]

Not to derail this discussion, I think it would be good to share the timeline of our bibles in English. I shall suppose that most here realize that the KJV bible did not come over on the Mayflower - the Geneva bible did.

 

[St. SteVen]

Not to derail this discussion, I think it would be good to share the timeline of our bibles in English. I shall suppose that most here realize that the KJV bible did not come over on the Mayflower - the Geneva bible did.

Thanks.
I did not know that about the Geneva translation.
Was it widely distributed among the public?

/