Sources of Knowledge and Ability to Believe

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DanielGarneau

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Brothers and sisters in Christ,

What is the impact of what we recognize as valid sources of knowledge on our ability to believe? If the Bible is the Word of God as I believe it is, then it is our source of knowledge about God, who He is, what He likes and dislikes, and what He expects from us. What happens to our possibility of believing exactly what the Bible says if we give more credibility to other sources than we do to the Bible? Two examples stand out in my mind: scientific sources and religious sources other than the Bible.

What is it that personnally encourage you to give more credit to what God says in His Word than to other sources of knowlege, whether religious or scientific, when these other sources come in open conflict with the teachings of the Word of God? Any thoughts on these issues?
 

Madad21

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Good subject Dan and one I love

What your talking about here are sources of theology, which are Scripture (reasoning), Traditions and Experience.
Every believer no matter what their belief has a theology and the above three sources are what informs our combined and individual theology's.

All three work together,

Scripture is the inspired Word of God and the primary basis of understanding Gods will. It sets in progress a solid foundation for forward moving faith.
Within an authentic biblical account accurately based on the original Greek or Hebrew texts we find the foundations needed in order to base our research and form our reasoning.

Tradition informs how we view and use Reason and logic, and to what extent we allow Experience to inform our theology. Traditions are a group of teachings which are handed down from person to person. This was originally associated with the “regula fidei”, or the rule of faith, things passed down from Christ to his apostles and then to the followers. The beliefs were later formed in to “Creeds” like the Nicaean Creed or the Chalcedonian Creed, which later became the confessions of the Protestant denominations. These traditions serve also as protection against the misinterpretation of the scripture forming a type of hermeneutical shield around them.

Experiences Some Traditions emphasize Experience, while other Traditions de-emphasize Experience. Experiences are events which affect only our cognition feelings: emotions, dreams, visions, or manifest as physical and spiritual healings tongues and prophesying, Interpretation of these Experiences informs our theology. For some, experience can make a person hyper spiritual and control their entire outlook, but for others, experience cannot be trusted and is never likely to be considered. . One of the greatest things that can happen to a person is in the experience of the supernatural, the opportunity to experience God in a personal and powerful way. This type of experience will inform your theology and alter in a big way how the other sources of are perceived.
 

Axehead

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Let's not omit the Holy Spirit.

I don't want to minimize the Word of God, but we don't just follow letters on paper do we? As important as the the Word of God is, it is of no profit to us without the application of it to our lives personally by the Holy Spirit. It will not matter one whit if we know Greek and Hebrew and the Bible backwards and forwards, yet do not know His voice.

If we lean upon our own understanding of God's Word, we may think we should "go right", when instead the Lord wants us to go left.
 

Madad21

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Axehead said:
Let's not omit the Holy Spirit.

I don't want to minimize the Word of God, but we don't just follow letters on paper do we? As important as the the Word of God is, it is of no profit to us without the application of it to our lives personally by the Holy Spirit. It will not matter one whit if we know Greek and Hebrew and the Bible backwards and forwards, yet do not know His voice.

If we lean upon our own understanding of God's Word, we may think we should "go right", when instead the Lord wants us to go left.
Yup its called "Experience"

Scripture is reasoning given via the Holy Spirit (with out the spirit the word can not be discerned 1 Cor 2:14)
Traditions are past down via the Holy Spirit
And we "Experience" God through the Holy Spirit.
 

Axehead

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I'm sorry, we are talking about two different things. I re-read your post.

But, I will mention that "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge". Hosea_4:6

What knowledge that people reject eventually destroy them?
 

Madad21

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Axehead said:
I'm sorry, we are talking about two different things. I re-read your post.

But, I will mention that "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge". Hosea_4:6

What knowledge that people reject eventually destroy them?
Im not sure I follow my friend, but I dont think you lack knowledge, anymore than I do. Were all taking baby steps and God doesnt destroy the ones he loves.
 

Axehead

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What role does the Holy Spirit play in giving us true knowledge? If we are to glory in knowledge, the knowledge of Him is all that really matters according to Jeremiah.

Jer_9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
Jer_9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
 

sojourner4Christ

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What is the impact of what we recognize as valid sources of knowledge on our ability to believe? That decision affects everything, from here to eternity. If the Bible is the Word of God as I believe it is, then it is our source of knowledge about God, who He is, what He likes and dislikes, and what He expects from us. However, many do not believe their bible is the word of God. Enter: reason. What happens to our possibility of believing exactly what the Bible says if we give more credibility to other sources than we do to the Bible? What happens is, double mindedness, because no man can serve two masters. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Or, in Caesar’s law, the bad destroys the good. Two examples stand out in my mind: scientific sources and religious sources other than the Bible. Interesting choice of examples. If one fully researches the origin of “science,” one will find that it is rooted in a combination of alchemy and religion.
What is it that personnally encourage you to give more credit to what God says in His Word than to other sources of knowlege, whether religious or scientific, when these other sources come in open conflict with the teachings of the Word of God? God’s unfailing faithfulness to me is what encourages me, while I know I am worthy of nothing but death. Any thoughts on these issues?
The natural man looks only to natural reason and his intellect for truth. With reason, we are limited by self-deception and pride. We are also limited by ignorance. And reason is basically a spiritually dead thing because their mind becomes their god. That's the problem with reason, and why you cannot mix it with faith.

The Church has merged reason and faith together and made it very acceptable and palatable. We have to find out where the origins of this philosophy came in, because that's what it is, it's a development of man's philosophy to merge faith and reason together and really take the spirit of God out of everything. By bringing in reason and giving everyone the idea that they can reason anything into existence and it is of God, and of course it is not, it's a creation of man's mind. You cannot reason Truth into existence, it always has been and always will be. And to use your reasonable mind to try to conjure up what Truth is, it's an impossibility, and you end up with a lie. Man brought reason about, for the purpose of compromise, and it's admitted that it was for compromise.

In the New Testament, the word "reason" is used nineteen times, but there's five different Greek words that are translated as "reason." We're not into disputing over certain words, but we certainly want to be diligent about the words that we use, because they do have an effect on our walk.

Christ used the word "reason" (Greek, dialogizomai) four times, and it was always in criticism, either of his disciples or of the Pharisees when they reasoned.

Matthew 16:8, "...O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?"

Mark 8:17, "...Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?"

Notice the contrast in this next verse between "spirit" and "reason." The problem with reasoning is that it's all spiritless.

Mark 2:8, "And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?"

The whole subject of repentance is to lay down your own reason and come into agreement with God and His Truth. This is truly being a little child, because you don't see little children reasoning things when they're pure of heart. That's what we're supposed to put to death, the way we think about things, our thoughts and actions, our life that we had as the children of disobedience before Christ. Paul said we were all once the children of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2), but when we let Christ in our life and we truly have a repentant heart, then we're going to learn to be children of obedience rather than disobedience. And more so every day as we lay down our life and carry that cross and crucify the deeds and the thoughts of the flesh.

This problem goes back to the beginning, when the serpent in the garden of Eden asked Eve to reason! "Hath God really said...? Let's reason this out. Think about this with your own understanding, Eve. Ye shall not surely die!" (Genesis 2).
 

Forsakenone

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DanielGarneau said:
Brothers and sisters in Christ,

What is the impact of what we recognize as valid sources of knowledge on our ability to believe? If the Bible is the Word of God as I believe it is, then it is our source of knowledge about God, who He is, what He likes and dislikes, and what He expects from us. What happens to our possibility of believing exactly what the Bible says if we give more credibility to other sources than we do to the Bible? Two examples stand out in my mind: scientific sources and religious sources other than the Bible.

What is it that personnally encourage you to give more credit to what God says in His Word than to other sources of knowlege, whether religious or scientific, when these other sources come in open conflict with the teachings of the Word of God? Any thoughts on these issues?
I would suggest they are principles. Yet by today's definition a principle is more or less some rule or belief that one makes up for themselves. [John 14:26] [1 John 2:27]

Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

[Matthew 1:20 KJV]
 

River Jordan

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We also can't ignore the fact that there's a pretty extensive history of one interpretation of scripture or another turning out to be mistaken once more information came to light. I mean, Christians during the American colonial days opposed lightning rods because they believed they thwarted God's will (lightning believed to be a means of God's punishment).

All any of us can do is assimilate what information we believe to be relevant and choose for ourselves how to incorporate it into our beliefs.
 

Axehead

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River Jordan said:
We also can't ignore the fact that there's a pretty extensive history of one interpretation of scripture or another turning out to be mistaken once more information came to light. I mean, Christians during the American colonial days opposed lightning rods because they believed they thwarted God's will (lightning believed to be a means of God's punishment).

All any of us can do is assimilate what information we believe to be relevant and choose for ourselves how to incorporate it into our beliefs.
What about reliance on the Holy Spirit. Seems to me you are making man the center and source of knowledge gained.

2Ch_20:12 O our God, wilt thou not judge them? for we have no might against this great company that cometh against us; neither know we what to do: but our eyes are upon thee.

Psa_121:1 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
Psa_121:2 My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.

P.S. Where is the original poster?
 

DanielGarneau

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Hello,

Thank you every one for your contribution to this thread. I'd like to pick up on some of what was said so far. I agree that we should not forget about the impossibility for anyone to truly understand anything about God unless the Holy Spirit does work in our life and illuminates our understanding.

That being said, when I read Hosea 4:6 saying "my people are destroyed by lack of knowledge" (NIV, 2011), or Proverbs 29:18, "Where there is no revelation, people cast off restraint" (NIV, 2011), it is applicable to what is said in Jeremiah 9:23-24, about boasting about knowing God and nothing else.

The problem today is that people -- even Christians sometimes -- tend to devaluate the importance of reading and stuydying the Word of God. Many do not even think it is possible to trust the Bible as being the Word of God, and don't check out what it has to say about God and His ways.

There would be much more I would like to say in response to some of the excellent responses on this thread so far, but it is all I have time to do for now.

Daniel Garneau
www.savoiretcroire.ca
 

StanJ

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DanielGarneau said:
Brothers and sisters in Christ,

What is the impact of what we recognize as valid sources of knowledge on our ability to believe? If the Bible is the Word of God as I believe it is, then it is our source of knowledge about God, who He is, what He likes and dislikes, and what He expects from us. What happens to our possibility of believing exactly what the Bible says if we give more credibility to other sources than we do to the Bible? Two examples stand out in my mind: scientific sources and religious sources other than the Bible.

What is it that personnally encourage you to give more credit to what God says in His Word than to other sources of knowlege, whether religious or scientific, when these other sources come in open conflict with the teachings of the Word of God? Any thoughts on these issues?
That's a big fat 10/4 good buddy!
 
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River Jordan

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Axehead said:
What about reliance on the Holy Spirit. Seems to me you are making man the center and source of knowledge gained.
I've seen far too many instances where the outcomes of "what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me" are mutually exclusive.
 

StanJ

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River Jordan said:
I've seen far too many instances where the outcomes of "what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me" are mutually exclusive.
I agree...the Holy Spirit reveals the Word of God and brings it to our remembrance, He does not contradict it.
 

sojourner4Christ

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Many do not even think it is possible to trust the Bible as being the Word of God, and don't check out what it has to say about God and His ways.
and

I've seen far too many instances where the outcomes of "what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me" are mutually exclusive.
"Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumbling block of their iniquity before their face. Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet, I, the Lord, will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols. That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols." - Ezekiel 14:3,4

When Ezekiel says that when the people "cometh to the prophet" to seek the will of the Lord, they are inquiring of God through the authority of "the prophet" - who the New Testament tells us is JESUS CHRIST. For example, in the book of John we learn that when Jesus preached, the people said "Of a truth, this is the prophet." (John 7:40) Peter also said that Jesus fulfilled the prediction of a great prophet that would arise in Israel when he stated "A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you...." (Acts 7:37) There are many Scriptural texts proving that Jesus is "the prophet."

Ezekiel is told by the Lord that when "every man" comes to him to seek his will and they "setteth up idols" in their hearts, God will answer them "according to the multitude of his idols" (Ezekiel 14:3, 4). First we need to see that an "idol" that is in the heart can be anything that comes between the believer and God. Because idolatry is a concept (as opposed to a statue that one worships), we must realize that an idol can be any thought, belief, bible version, or even doctrine that we want to believe.

When God says he will answer the inquirer "according to" the idol, he is saying he will not tear down the false beliefs that exist in the hearts of the believers. Remember, the text says the believers are the ones that have "set up their idols in their heart" (Ezekiel 14:3) Thus, the Lord plainly states that he will give you the answer you've already decided you want!

This is a gigantic truth, and it is another area concerning God's attributes that is commonly distorted by the false teachers. Pastors and Christian writers commonly tell us that God never deceives people - yet the Scriptures tell us that God allows us to continue in the deceptions that we've ensnared ourselves in. The Bible says "the Lord knoweth how to...reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" (II Peter 2:9).

In fact, the Apostle Paul plainly says that God will actually initiate deception when he writes that "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (II Thessalonians 2:11,10).

And it is also God who chooses their delusions! I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not (Isaiah 66:4).

What we're seeing here should be frightening, because it is a scriptural proof text that indicates if we are not completely sold out to hearing the truth - regardless of how unsavory the truth may be - we are subject to be deceived. Furthermore, the very fact that this principle exists is tantamount to a prediction that there will be believers that think they are truly seeking the truth, but in actuality they have placed their idolatrous doctrines in their hearts, and are going before the LORD to ask him to validate the "idol" that is their false interpretation.

In the passage in Ezekiel, the Lord also refers to "the stumblingblock of their iniquity" as another obstacle to receiving the truth when seeking God. The text indicates that when the believer "putteth the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face" when he seeks the Lord on a matter, this too will cause the Lord to "set my face against that man...." (Ezekiel 14:8).

This aspect of the prophecy informs us that our iniquity produces a "stumblingblock." Although we see variations on the term with the Scriptures sometimes calling it a "stumblingstone," the idiom is not used much in the modern English vernacular. It might be useful to state that if we think of walking forward and tripping over a large stone that we did not see, we have a valid picture of what is being said. For example, I live out in the country where it is completely pitch black at night. If I am walking around in total darkness and can't see a significant stone in my path, I'm likely to fall over it and be injured.

A stumblingblock is not intrinsically evil as the Scriptures state that Christ was to "the Jews a stumblingblock, and a rock of offense...." (I Corinthians 1:23) What we see in this amazing prophecy from Ezekiel is that it is our sin that keeps us from seeing things that we need to see. To put it another way, our iniquity is directly proportional to our spiritual blindness, and God will not just override that sin and force us to hear his truth. In order to get past this vulnerable condition, we must consistently demonstrate our willingness to receive the truth - in short, we must LOVE the TRUTH.

JESUS CHRIST told us that HE is the truth - "I am the way, the truth, and the life." (John 14:6) If we genuinely love the truth, then we will find it. Indeed, the very fact that there exists a multiplicity of "Christian traditions" is an indicator that something is dreadfully wrong. Thus, the idea that 'we can agree to disagree' is completely unscriptural on any matter concerning the faith. There is only one truth, and everything else is a lie.

This is an extraordinary perspective and it cuts like the proverbial two-edged sword. The idea of stumblingblocks is essentially synonymous with the New Testament concept of Strongholds. This is another way of describing a stumblingblock. A "Stronghold" is a place where someone or something may be defended. This term is commonly used as a military concept in the context of warfare - and the Bible frequently speaks of the war that is continuously occurring in the realm of the Spirit. In I Corinthians, we see,

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds, Casting down imaginations, and every high thing [read idol] that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ...." (II Corinthians 10:3-5)

What this verse is so eloquently teaching us is that we are the ones that pull down the "Strongholds." We are the ones that seek out the "Stumblingblocks" in order achieve the victory in Christ. And we do these things, not in our power, but "through God" as we become "sanctified through the truth" (John 17:19). To be sanctified means to be set apart for glory, but for those that are not sanctified of God, "...the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...." (Romans 1:18)

To put this into perspective, whenever we fail to fully embrace the truth, we allow the Devil to establish a Spiritual Stronghold that enters into our lives - and this is something that can eventually destroy us. When we refuse to see the truth that God wants us to see, that Stronghold becomes a Stumblingblock that causes us to stumble and fall further and further away from the will of the LORD. As this process continues, we are not abiding in the truth, and we then become subject to the wrath of God which is directed to all that "hold the truth in unrighteousness." (Romans 1:18). Essentially, when we say that we love him, and do not love the truth, we have become liars because he IS the truth.

Through Ezekiel, God says that he has allowed this situation to progress because "they are all estranged from me through their idols" (Ezekiel 14:5). God desires our fellowship - a fellowship that is true and unfeigned - not simply words, but deeds. God will hold all accountable, and the only way to ensure that we know him is to be found in him - in righteousness and in truth. "If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? For the time is come that the judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the Gospel of God?" (I Peter 4:18,17)

-- Brother James
 

MikeManea

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[SIZE=8pt]Hi, my name is Mike and I am currently working on a book called, 'How to Debate Atheists.' I have completed the first three chapters and would appreciate any feedback.[/SIZE]
[Link removed]
 

River Jordan

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MikeManea said:
[SIZE=8pt]Hi, my name is Mike and I am currently working on a book called, 'How to Debate Atheists.' I have completed the first three chapters and would appreciate any feedback.[/SIZE]
[Link Removed]
IMO (and experience) if you take this approach you won't get past your opening argument that...

"Can the atheist prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that naturalism is true? If not, then a god must exist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence after all, evidence the naturalist cannot produce. Therefore, the debate is not theism vs. atheism but theism vs. naturalism."

If you truly want to debate atheists on the existence of God, then you have to accept that you are advocating a specific, positive position (God exists), and as such it falls upon you to support that position. If you can't, then the atheist is justified in rejecting your position due to lack of evidence. Whether or not he/she has any alternative is irrelevant to that.

Your analogy of the three trapped miners isn't very good. You seem to be arguing that there is no burden on the positive argument as long as it's obvious that it's true. First, in your analogy it isn't obvious which one of the miners killed the other one. In order to convict one or the other, or both, the prosecution has to present evidence. Of course part of that evidence is that they were all alive when they went it, one was dead when they came out, he had been stabbed, and there was no way for anyone else to get in. IOW, we do have positive evidence to bring to court. But if we're going to convict X or Y, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did it.

You're not going to get any atheist to accept your approach because as I said, it's based on the assumption that the existence of God is inherently obvious, so there's no need to prove it.

Later on you state, "science has a built in bias toward naturalism and against god and the supernatural". As you note, science operates according to methodological naturalism, not philosophical naturalism, and that's reasonable. God is not available to scientific investigation and "God did it" is not a testable hypothesis. That's why it lies outside of science...not because of any "bias against God", but because it is impossible to investigate.

Then you state, "Consider the most extreme situation possible: a universe where god supplied only the initial conditions and everything else occurred naturally from there with no further interference from god. In such a situation, the scientific method would work nearly universally and yet the naturalistic assumptions of science would still be false."

Here you're confusing methodological naturalism with philosophical naturalism. Science does not operate according to "we assume God and the supernatural don't exist" (philosophical naturalism), but operates according to "If God and the supernatural exists, it is beyond our ability to test and investigate" (methodological naturalism).

I'd suggest you clear up these errors in your guidebook before sending Christians out to debate atheists with it. I know you mean well, but you're kinda setting them up for failure and embarrassment.