Speaking in Tongues a Cessationist View

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amadeus

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The prayer of faith heals the sick. But the Charismatic "faith healers" turned it into a highly profitable business. Any believer can remove sickness by casting out demons or praying the prayer of faith. But to market it it and claim the signs and wonders of the Apostles is only making merchandise out of the biblically unlearned.
Who is talking about false prophets and false ministers of God? Are you talking to yourself?

I know and I would suppose that most, if not all, of the people reading this thread know that such falsehood exists. Would you throw out the baby with the bathwater?

Jesus did not reject God and the things of God because of the many hypocrites He encountered. He was willing to walk with no followers at all if necessary:

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67
 
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Dave L

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Who is talking about false prophets and false ministers of God? Are you talking to yourself?

I know and I would suppose that most, if not all, of the people reading this thread know that such falsehood exists. Would you throw out the baby with the bathwater?

Jesus did not reject God and the things of God because of the many hypocrites He encountered. He was willing to walk with no followers at all if necessary:

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:22–23)


Does this speak of today's Pentecostal Movement?


The early Church had the gifts of the Spirit because Christ knew them. They had the Holy Spirit and the gifts. But today's Pentecostals do not have the authentic gifts the first century Christians had. The prophetic gifts expired, being replaced by the New Testament canon. So these who Christ never knew, mimic first century Christians and their gifts.


First Work: Prophecy

The first work that Jesus mentions in His illustration is prophecy.On the Day of Judgment, the people respond, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name…” (Matthew 7:22a ESV).


Prophecy is defined in many different ways.The Pentecostals see prophecy as the same thing that it was in the days of Moses.Other Protestants view prophecy as just the proclamation of the Word of God.However one interprets the definition of the word “prophecy”, we should let our interpretation of an English word be how we understand the Scripture text.We should look at the original Greek.

The word used here for “prophesy” is προφητεύω (propheteuo). The word literally means, “to foretell events, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office”.So both beliefs about prophecy are included under this one word.This means that these people were both making predictions in the name of the Lord and also proclaiming words and saying that they were the Lord’s words.On this issue, the Baker Commentary on the Bible states,

“Then Jesus warns against false prophets (vv. 15-23).The false prophets popularize the broad road by advocating a lawless way of life.They are easily recognized, for what they do reveals what they are (vv.15-20), and what they do contradicts what they say (vv.21-23).” (Baker Commentary on the Bible, Edited by Walter A. Elwell, 1989, Baker Books, p. 731)

Second Work: Casting Out Demons

The second work that those being damned to hell mention as doing in the name of the Lord is the casting out of demons.In the days of Jesus, they were very aware of the spirit world. Much of the things that we call diseases today would probably have been counted as demons in His day.So these people were healers.They proclaimed words in God’s name and healed people.Not much else needs to be said on this matter I don’t think.

Third Work: Many Mighty Works

The third thing that these poor, damned souls mention is a broad many mighty works.This could be anything from healings to service on the streets.They were doing good things in the name of the Lord.But the word in Greek does have an emphasis on the divine.The word in the Greek rendered mighty works in the ESV is δύναμις (dunamis).It means, “force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself)”.

So these people were performing miracles. Therefore, a more accurate and literal rendering of this verse would be similar to the New American Standard Bible says,

“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ (Matthew 7:22 NASB)

https://apuritanmindset.wordpress.com/2004/12/10/an-exegesis-of-matthew-721-2
 

amadeus

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“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:22–23)

Does this speak of today's Pentecostal Movement?
It speaks of everyone who puts on false colors in the name of God, be they Pentecostal, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, or non-denominational, or simply single persons such as you or me! Jesus denounced them because He recognized them. Neither you nor I are Jesus. We still see, at best, through glass darkly... unless we have already overcome the world as Jesus did. We still much of the time see men as trees walking.

The early Church had the gifts of the Spirit because Christ knew them. They had the Holy Spirit and the gifts. But today's Pentecostals do not have the authentic gifts the first century Christians had. The prophetic gifts expired, being replaced by the New Testament canon. So these who Christ never knew, mimic first century Christians and their gifts.
What you say regarding false teachers and preachers is true, but when you insist that there are no prophetic gifts today you are also prophesying and your prophecy is not true. The first century people did not have a greater need than people today. People today are just a hard headed and stiff-necked as they were 2000 years ago. Then they had Jesus, and ignored or mocked Him. Now they have the written Bible, and ignore of mock it.

Then Jesus spoke in parables, interpreting only for those who were truly hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God.
Now the Bible is not understood or is misunderstood, but interpretation is available through the Holy Spirit for any who are truly hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God.


"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

First Work: Prophecy

The first work that Jesus mentions in His illustration is prophecy.On the Day of Judgment, the people respond, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name…” (Matthew 7:22a ESV).


Prophecy is defined in many different ways.The Pentecostals see prophecy as the same thing that it was in the days of Moses.Other Protestants view prophecy as just the proclamation of the Word of God.However one interprets the definition of the word “prophecy”, we should let our interpretation of an English word be how we understand the Scripture text.We should look at the original Greek.

The word used here for “prophesy” is προφητεύω (propheteuo). The word literally means, “to foretell events, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office”.So both beliefs about prophecy are included under this one word.This means that these people were both making predictions in the name of the Lord and also proclaiming words and saying that they were the Lord’s words.On this issue, the Baker Commentary on the Bible states,

“Then Jesus warns against false prophets (vv. 15-23).The false prophets popularize the broad road by advocating a lawless way of life.They are easily recognized, for what they do reveals what they are (vv.15-20), and what they do contradicts what they say (vv.21-23).” (Baker Commentary on the Bible, Edited by Walter A. Elwell, 1989, Baker Books, p. 731)

Second Work: Casting Out Demons

The second work that those being damned to hell mention as doing in the name of the Lord is the casting out of demons.In the days of Jesus, they were very aware of the spirit world. Much of the things that we call diseases today would probably have been counted as demons in His day.So these people were healers.They proclaimed words in God’s name and healed people.Not much else needs to be said on this matter I don’t think.

Third Work: Many Mighty Works

The third thing that these poor, damned souls mention is a broad many mighty works.This could be anything from healings to service on the streets.They were doing good things in the name of the Lord.But the word in Greek does have an emphasis on the divine.The word in the Greek rendered mighty works in the ESV is δύναμις (dunamis).It means, “force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself)”.

So these people were performing miracles. Therefore, a more accurate and literal rendering of this verse would be similar to the New American Standard Bible says,

“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ (Matthew 7:22 NASB)

https://apuritanmindset.wordpress.com/2004/12/10/an-exegesis-of-matthew-721-2

A nice commentary with a few of your own ideas inserted, but that does not establish that God has stopped talking to people today. Every time you, Dave L, correctly witness to any person, God is talking to that person. And that is NOT the only way He talks nor are you the only person He uses to speak His Word...
 
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Dave L

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It speaks of everyone who puts on false colors in the name of God, be they Pentecostal, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, or non-denominational, or simply a single persons such as you or me! Jesus denounced them because He recognized them. Neither you nor I are Jesus. We still see, at best, through glass darkly... unless we have already overcome the world as Jesus did. We still much of the time see men as trees walking.


What you say regarding false teachers and preachers is true, but when you insist that there are no prophetic gifts today you are also prophesying and your prophecy is not true. The first century people did not have a greater need than people today. People today are just a hard headed and stiff-necked as they were 2000 years ago. Then they had Jesus and ignored or mocked Him. Now they have written Bible and ignore of mock it.

Then Jesus spoke in parables, interpreting only for those who were truly hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God.
Now the Bible is not understood or is misunderstood, but interpretation is available through the Holy Spirit for any who are truly hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God.


"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6



A nice commentary with a few of your own ideas inserted, but that does not establish that God has stopped talking to people today. Every time you, Dave L, correctly witness to any person, God is talking to that person. And that is NOT the only way He talks nor are you the only person He uses to speak His Word...
The mainline churches do not do what Jesus describes. Only the Pentecostals/Charismatics do these things.
 

amadeus

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The mainline churches do not do what Jesus describes. Only the Pentecostals/Charismatics do these things.
But if a person can believe the written histories of man outside of the scriptures, all of these mainline churches, have changed, have they not... over the years of their existence? Why should they have changed? Why should the people who rejected Catholicism during the Reformation have changed at that time? Was anything ever wrong according to scripture that anyone should have changed?

Certainly the Catholic Church is a mainline "church" according to a great many people... even probably many non-catholics. Should we all follow any mainline church, be they Catholic or Protestant or other simply because they have great numbers and have apparently endured for what seems to some as long periods of time?

Perhaps it would be best to imitate what Jesus did or to do what He said to do, rather than what some man or men say. Is this what some Pentecostals/Charismatics are doing now which seems to offend you?
 

rockytopva

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It is very biblical to turn away from cessationist type teaching, as saith the Apostle Paul unto Timothy. ...

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. - 2 Timothy 3:5
 
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Dave L

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But if a person can believe the written histories of man outside of the scriptures, all of these mainline churches, have changed, have they not... over the years of their existence? Why should they have changed? Why should the people who rejected Catholicism during the Reformation have changed at that time? Was anything ever wrong according to scripture that anyone should have changed?

Certainly the Catholic Church is a mainline "church" according to a great many people... even probably many non-catholics. Should we all follow any mainline church, be they Catholic or Protestant or other simply because they have great numbers and have apparently endured for what seems to some as long periods of time?

Perhaps it would be best to imitate what Jesus did or to do what He said to do, rather than what some man or men say. Is this what some Pentecostals/Charismatics are doing now which seems to offend you?
There are only 3 positions all churches hold to. 1) Salvation is by grace alone. 2) Salvation is by works and grace, or 3) salvation is by works. All Pentecostal Churches center on #2. The historic mainline Churches center on # 1. But only one position can be true.
 
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Dave L

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It is very biblical to turn away from cessationist type teaching, as saith the Apostle Paul unto Timothy. ...

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. - 2 Timothy 3:5
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.” (2 Peter 2:1–3)

Healer? Heal Thyself!
 

amadeus

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There are only 3 positions all churches hold to. 1) Salvation is by grace alone. 2) Salvation is by works and grace, or 3) salvation is by works. All Pentecostal Churches center on #2. The historic mainline Churches center on # 1. But only one position can be true.
Whether a person does define it or is even able to define it matters not at all so long as he pleases God. If it helps us and when it helps us go ahead and try to set them out according to definition, but don't presume that you or the ones who prepared the definitions will be saved because of their preparations or proceeding according to those definitions. But you should have known that already. By stating it as an absolute that must be you are effectively saying that the box will hold God precisely. You or they figured it out.

God is above that. The only way a man can correctly describe Him is if God revealed Himself, but like Moses there is always a limit because of where we are and what we will allow. The limit can be changed, but NOT by man's logical mind alone.
 
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Dave L

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Whether a person does define it or is even able to definite it matters not at all so long as he pleases God. If it helps us and when it helps us go ahead and try to set them out according to definition, but don't presume that you or the ones who prepared the definitions will be saved because of their preparations or proceeding according to those definitions. But you should have known that already. By stating it as an absolute that must be you are effectively saying that the box will hold God precisely. You or they figured it out.

God is above that. The only way a man can correctly describe Him is if God revealed Himself, but like Moses there is always limited because of where we are and what we will allow. The limit can be changed, but NOT by man's logical mind alone.
What I'm saying is that today's charismatic leaders are off on every single doctrine including the doctrine of salvation.
 

amadeus

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What I'm saying is that today's charismatic leaders are off on every single doctrine including the doctrine of salvation.
Are they? To say this so definitely means that you believe you know what is correct for each and every one of those doctrines. Is this really what you mean to say? Are you so flawless then in all of these things?

Since I am not, I find myself unable to say more now.
 
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Dave L

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Are they? To say this so definitely means that you believe you know what is correct for each and every one of those doctrines. Is this really what you mean to say? Are you so flawless then in all of these things?

Since I am not, I find myself unable to say more now.
They do not understand the topics they preach on. Not even close.
 

amadeus

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They do not understand the topics they preach on. Not even close.
But... you do? Recall once again the still the wise words of Solomon:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

That too many men today, who know Solomon's words, do not believe they apply to themselves because they have the Holy Spirit is perhaps the biggest part of the problem among those calling themselves Christians. They refuse to admit the possibility that they ever quench the Holy Spirit in themselves and as result love their own conclusions rather than truth and live in delusion. This delusion if unchanged will leave in the end I would say, 'up a creek without a paddle'.
 

rockytopva

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It is very biblical to turn away from cessationist type teaching, as saith the Apostle Paul unto Timothy. ...

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. - 2 Timothy 3:5

I call such preachers, “Plain Janes” And sympathize with those trying to stay awake during such cut and dry services...

]
 
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Dave L

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But... you do? Recall once again the still the wise words of Solomon:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

That too many men today, who know Solomon's words, do not believe they apply to themselves because they have the Holy Spirit is perhaps the biggest part of the problem among those calling themselves Christians. They refuse to admit the possibility that they ever quench the Holy Spirit in themselves and as result love their own conclusions rather than truth and live in delusion. This delusion if unchanged will leave in the end I would say, 'up a creek without a paddle'.
Anyone knows these who go about telling the naive what they want to hear while cleaning out their pockets are not of Christ.
 

amadeus

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Anyone knows these who go about telling the naive what they want to hear while cleaning out their pockets are not of Christ.
No, not anyone knows. Those you call naive don't know or they would not fall into that trap... if trap if was. God does work in mysterious ways and even a donkey can speak the Word of God so why not a charlatan? Don't limit Him!
 
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Dave L

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No, not anyone knows. Those you call naive don't know or they would not fall into that trap... if trap if was. God does work in mysterious ways and even a donkey can speak the Word of God so why not a charlatan? Don't limit Him!
You know them by their fruits. The Acts Christians got rid of money, didn't hawk psychosomatic healing for a profit. Look at these people objectively if you can.
 

amadeus

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You know them by their fruits. The Acts Christians got rid of money, didn't hawk psychosomatic healing for a profit. Look at these people objectively if you can.
We only know them by their fruits when we are in the Spirit hearing from God. If we are quenching the Spirit we are then listening the voices of strangers.

Don't tell me you are always walking in the Spirit unless you can also honestly and sincerely tell that you never sin.
 
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Dave L

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We only know them by their fruits when we are in the Spirit hearing from God. If we are quenching the Spirit we are then listening the voices of strangers.

Don't tell me you are always walking in the Spirit unless you can also honestly and sincerely tell that you never sin.
Here's my approach to walking in the Spirit.

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:5) (KJV 1900)

We censor every impure thought or imagination. And change the channel in our thinking on any thought that does not conform to obedience to Christ.

And we replace it with:

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” (Philippians 4:8)

Knowing Jesus is God and God is love. So Jesus is lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions.

I sin rarely and always seek repentance immediately. Those with the Holy Spirit can usually reject sin at the temptation stage before it becomes sin.
 
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