1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Speaking In Tongues

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by iakwe2002, Jul 27, 2007.

  1. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

    Messages:
    813
    Likes Received:
    3
    to be a part of it you need to have received the infilling of God's Spirit, speaking in tongues, and be living the new life.
    God does not give everyone the same kind of gift and just because we ask for it He will not give it. He gives us appropriate ones according to each individual.BTW, God changed my life completely since I became Christain 8 years ago and I dont speak "tongues". And I am not complaining about it whatsoever. I am just grateful with whatever He gives me.
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    Filled with Gods spirit yes Speaking in tounges NOWe are saved by Grace, our works are our garments speaking in gibberish has nothing to do with being saved or accepted into the kingdom of God.We are told it is nothing without a interpeter. And should never be spoken in groups of more than 2 or 3 without an interpeter. Acts is very clearly says what this tonges is and its not what most churches today claim it is.
     
  3. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

    Messages:
    431
    Likes Received:
    1
    (Faithful1;14576)
    God does not give everyone the same kind of gift .. . .
    You don't understand."The gifts" are the meetings-use (*giving* to the church) of what ALL Christians have for private use. Please look again at the passage you refer to:-"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. . .. to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;To another faith .. . tongues . . .interpretation . . (1 Cor. 12:1, 8-10)Q - If only some christians get tongues, is the same true of faith, knowledge and wisdom ?
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. I understand what you are saying but I dont agree and do not think you have any biblical support for your postion.
     
  5. graceforums

    graceforums New Member

    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    I recommend reading Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology on this topic. He holds to a very balanced, biblical non-cessationist view.Shalom.
     
  6. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

    Messages:
    338
    Likes Received:
    0
    (kriss;14536)
    There is no rule about not using this for your own praying.Its acceptable I dont think God cares I think he would rather you know what you are saying to him. But each to his own. I am only interested in what scripture says about using this in church setting. And it says not to do it (without an interpreter) I think there is good reason behind this. I think Satan and his angels can mimic this and find his way into your church through the weak of faith and how good is a church that Satan has entered? and charlatans can fake it to mislead the sheep.Which displeasess God. Either way why would you risk it its against the Word of God.
    Kriss,Thank you for making this clear.I understand now where you stand on the issue of Tongues, I can agree with what you said concerning tongues in church!The reason I kept bring up Corth14:2was that many people try to dismiss the gift of tongues but they fail to recognise it's true benefit to build up your spirit man!
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    Actually, Kriss had made that clear for a while...so did I...God's Words make perfect clear if we don't have our preconceived ideas...Again Kriss is right about that. [​IMG]Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.Edit 1: Kriss, I got a question for you, while scriptures say not to speak in it with more than 2 or 3 people and let 1 interpret in church...while I am sure of this answer...What if only 2 or 3 that speak in it, but there is no interpreter to prophesy to edified the church...Common sense tells me that is against the Word too...Just wondering what you think Kriss.
     
  8. gibby

    gibby New Member

    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    0
    I pretty much agree with Kriss on the subject. The only thing that confuses me is that I have friends who are, what I believe, guenuine followers of Christ, who swear that they experienced the so-called "second" baptism of the Holy Spirit (another topic) and was evident by speaking in tongues. They seriously believe they experienced it. Who am I to sit in the judgement seat and say they are crazy? I don't really buy the second Baptism of the Holy Spirit doctrine myself but people really and truly believe this event had happened to them.
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    It is my opinion that Satan evil spirits also have a tongue When there is no way to know what you are saying No interpeterIf you use this for self or very small groups,( if 2 are speaking this together )there is little chance of Satan finding his way into your church. To use it in a large church setting we can not know the spirit of all who are speaking it so if 1 or 2 are not pure of heart they are bringing evil into your church I think God made this rule to protect the Godly members of the church. No more than 2 or 3 without knowing what you are saying(through an interpeter)
     
  10. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

    Messages:
    338
    Likes Received:
    0
    (gibby;14763)
    I pretty much agree with Kriss on the subject. The only thing that confuses me is that I have friends who are, what I believe, guenuine followers of Christ, who swear that they experienced the so-called "second" baptism of the Holy Spirit (another topic) and was evident by speaking in tongues. They seriously believe they experienced it. Who am I to sit in the judgement seat and say they are crazy? I don't really buy the second Baptism of the Holy Spirit doctrine myself but people really and truly believe this event had happened to them.
    Amen to that!I've experienced speaking in tongues every day and it truly blesses my life, It really does add power to your walk in Christ!Unless you have trulley experienced this gift yourself there is no way that you can understand it!I argued against speaking in tongues for years until I experienced it my self, now I truly never want to live with out it!
     
  11. Dave...

    Dave... New Member

    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    JodyHi...There is no such thing as personal tongues. This is not hard to proove from scripture. If you look closely enough, you will see that the scripture used to support personal tongues does not in fact support personal tongues. The word unknown was added by the translater (before the singular tongue only), not to show the difference between personal tongues and public tongues, but to show the difference between the false gibberish carried in from the mystery religions, and the true sign gift that was still in use at that time. Paul put restrictions on real tongues (which were active at that time) for that reason, to get rid of the false. What modern churches have done is to take Pauls rebukes on the mystery religion gibberish, and somehow turn these rebukes into commands. If you would like, We can go over the whole thing. I will test you, and you will test me. To answer your question...2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. First, this is not speaking of the Holy Spirit, but our "spirit".Second, this is not a command, as some read into it, but a statement of fact. We should determine whether or not it is a good thing by the context. The context makes clear that this is 'what not to do.'Third, why does Paul qualify it with "for no one understands him" when the true gift speaks to this people? "I will speak to this people;" Fourth...The mind should NEVER be bypassed, "(Love Me with...) all your mind...". God is not the Author of confusion.Fifth. "God" in vs.2 is the same word translated to "an unknown god" in Acts.Just to name a few... 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. (This is the wrong thing to do) 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. (This is the right thing to do) 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself (wrong thing to do), but he who prophesies edifies the church (right thing to do). Note:vs. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. (This is the wrong thing to do) 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues ( The true gift is good, it still had purpose before the judgment fell), but even more that you prophesied (prophecy is specifically for the edification of believers); for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. ( even true tongues should be interpreted so believers are edified, the purpose is still a for a sign) 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. (seek edifying the Church, this is what love does, without lov, you are a clanging symbol.) The gift of languages had a specific purpose, any secondary benefits were so God would not be a God of confusion. Outside of being a sign to the Jews, there is nothing that tongues can do that every believer cannot do easier, and more efficiantly, and with less confusion by way of his normal language for himself and for the Body. Understanding that God deals with the nation of Israel differently than He does the Body of Christ today is critical in understang the gift of languages. The Jews required the sign, always, so God gave them signs, but not always to their liking. Apart from the primary purpose of tongues, which Paul said was to be a sign to unbelievers (Israel), the secondary uses for tongues serve no benefit above and beyond that which we can all accomplish without tongues. When the sign aspect of tongues became absent, the secondary uses became expendable. Tongues ceased, as the Bible said it would.If you are willing to put God's Word first, if you would like, we can have a structured bebate and go over all of it.Peace
     
  12. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    6
    Can I just say that I believe tongues were given so the disiciples could take the gospel to all the world without having to learn their languages.There was also the fact this was a witness to unbelievers as a sign to them.We now have the bible in more or less every language and can communicate with all people everywhere.It says the Spirit intercedes for us with moans and groans no one understands.I believe the Holy Spirit is a real person who leads those who do as Christ taught. Loves God and others. The gifts are a gift but the fruit is something that we have to work at by giving ourselves in submission to the truth and will of God.I believe the fruit of the Spirit in a person is the real sign that he is in them.Love Faithful.Love in itself is the most powerful with faith a believer can have.xx:angel9:
     
  13. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

    Messages:
    431
    Likes Received:
    1
    (Faithful;15073)
    Can I just say that I believe tongues were given so the disiciples could take the gospel to all the world without having to learn their languages.
    People get this doctrine from the fact that different languages were recognised at Pentecost.However the hearers already spoke Jewish, they were bi-lingual, so these people took the gospel back to the known world without anyone having to learn a new language!AND when they heard they were all left in doubt (see Acts 2:12) so, tongues was never any good for preaching!AND the bible says:-1Co:14:2: For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God:So, even if people recognise the words, they do not really understand what's being said because it's talking about spiritual things which the natural man cannot understand.The main purpose of tongues is, and always was allowing the Holy Spirit lead us in prayer according to God's perfect will for us, to minister the peace that passes understanding, the joy unspeakable and the love that surpasses knowledge . . "for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8:26)"But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God . ." (Jude 20-21)
     
  14. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

    Messages:
    338
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen to that Tallman!Everyone else that disaggrees with tongues being for today is really missing out on an awsome gift from God whether you believe it or not it's there for you!
     
  15. Dave...

    Dave... New Member

    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tallman wrote:
    The main purpose of tongues is, and always was allowing the Holy Spirit lead us in prayer according to God's perfect will for us, to minister the peace that passes understanding, the joy unspeakable and the love that surpasses knowledge . .
    Tallman, the purpose of the Holy Spirit, not tongues, is to lead us in prayer according to God's will. This is why you're reading tongues into these verses that have nothing to do with tongues.The scripture that you provided does not say what you claim it does. These verses have nothing to do with tongues.Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 6:18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. note on Ephesians 6:18-19: While in prison, Paul was not praying for comfort or ease, he was praying that he would preach the Gospel with boldness, regardless of the cost. This is praying in the Spirit Guys, it has nothing to do with tongues. It's praying according to, and in harmony with the will of God. Compare to...1 John 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.If you pray by the Spirit (According to God's will), your prayer will always be answered. If you pray according to the flesh...This is why Jesus prayed "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." Luke 22:41. This is why He taught us to pray "Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven..." Matthew 6:9. To guard against our flesh.Spirit vs. flesh...Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Contrast with vs 23. Matthew 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Just because people today use the phrase "praying in the Spirit" to refer to tongues does not mean that was what the Bible meant by it. Paul gives a perfect example of what "praying in the Spirit" really means in Ephesians 6:18....By the way, this is speaking of the "armor of God" which i'm sure we would all agree is for all Christians. But tongues were not for everyone.Tallman wrote:
    "for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8:26)
    "which cannot be uttered" I believe that the Bible is clear on what praying in the Spirit means, and has nothing to do with tongues.God does not gift anyone to minister to Him but to the Body. Without love (selfless), you are a clanging symbol. The Holy Spirit can never produce a clanging symbol, only our flesh can do this. Sound familiar?...3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.But back to what the gifts were meant to do...7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.The perfect prayer is one from the heart with our understanding, as Paul told us. I have no confidence in myself, this is why I pray "Your will be done, Lord" at the end of every prayer, Just as Jesus told us we should. Nowhere in scripture is it taught that languages give us a deeper spiritual connection or a superior prayer. It's just not there.When Jesus gave an example of how we should pray, it was in a clear and understandable prayer. Every example of prayer in scripture is clear and understandable. When Deity prayed to Deity at Gethsemane, it was clear and understandable. Without the sign, tongues becomes a hinderance. They can do nothing that every saved person cannot already do more efficiantly, with less confusion, less restrictions, more Biblically and more profitable in their normal language. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit (our spirit), and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit (our spirit), and I will also sing with the understanding. Apart from the primary purpose of tongues, which Paul said was to be a sign to unbelievers (Jews), the secondary uses ( which were necessary so God would not be the author of confusion while the sign was being given ) for tongues serve no benefit above and beyond that which we all can accomplish by regular means. When the sign aspect of tongues is absent, and it is, the secondary uses became expendable. There is no such sign being given today like we read about in Acts. The churches who claim tongues for today deny it by their actions, they send their missionaries to school to learn the languages like everyone else. So I want to pose this question for those who believe in a personal prayer language or tongues for self or Bodily edification...What advantage does tongues hold for the individual or the Body that cannot be accomplished both more efficiently and with less confusion by normal ( non-miraculous) means? Peace
     
  16. Dave...

    Dave... New Member

    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's one of the proof texts used by you guys...1Co 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. statement of factHere is what Paul tells us we should do.1Cor.14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. commandNow, lets break it down.1Cor.14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. commandWe should seek to edify the church.Which one does Paul want us to do, A or B?A) 1Cor. 14:4A The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself....[​IMG] 1Cor. 14:4B but the one who prophesies builds up the church. Here is another verse you guys use.1Cor. 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.statement of fact (vs. 14:9 calls it "speaking into the air" = meaningless)Remember, we should seek to edify the church.Which one does Paul want us to do, A or B?A) 1Cor. 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.[​IMG] 1Cor.14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.1Cor.14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. commandWe should seek to edify the church. 1Cor.14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. conclusion of obeying his commandWe should seek understanding.1Cor.14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. commandWe should pursue love. (Which is not self seeking.)We should seek to edify the church.We should seek understanding.We should pursue love.It's pretty clear, isn't it?1 corinthians 14:2 ---I think too many people today assume that this is a command, and also a good thing. I take it as a statement of fact, and considering the context, it seems clear to me that this is what not to do, while building up the Body is what to do. God gifted us to minister to others, not to minister to Him. Pauls theme through out the three chapters is the edification of others, of which he shows that prophecy can do easily. For languages, the sign always was the purpose, edification was always the goal for any gift operated within the Body. Prophecy was always superior to tongues for edifying, but while the sign gift of languages was still being given to unbelieving Jews, the Body had to be edified in the process to eliminate confusion from with in the Body because God is not the author of confusion. Peace.
     
  17. Dave...

    Dave... New Member

    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    What were the Corinthians doing? They were the church that didn't understand true spirituality, who allowed all their Pagan religious practices to creep into the church (12:2). Consider the sin that was taking place at the Corinthian church and ask yourself if the Holy Spirit would move in this place and through these people. They were worldly, divisive, opinionated, cliquish, carnal, fleshly, envious, strife-ridden, argumentative, puffed up, self- glorying, smug, immoral, compromising with sin, defrauding each other, fornicating, depriving in marriage, offending weaker Christians, lusting after evil things, idolatrous, fellowshiping with demons, insubordinate, gluttonous, drunken, selfish toward the poor, and desecrating the Lord's Table. So what were they doing, the same thing Christians are doing today. they have recreated the mystery religions.This is a cut and paste. A quick look a pagan tongues of that time...
    "a. The Ecstasy of the Greco-Roman World At the time of the Corinthian church, the Greco-Roman world had a multitude of gods. In their worship of these gods, it was very common for a person to go into ecstasy, which literally means "to go out of oneself." They would go into an unconscious state where all kinds of psychic phenomena would occur. They believed that when they were in an ecstatic trance, they actually left their body, ascended into space, connected up to whatever deity they were worshiping, and would begin to commune with that deity. Once they began to commune with that deity, they would begin to speak the language of the gods. This was a very common practice in their culture. In fact, the term used in 1 Corinthians to refer to speaking in tongues (glossais lalein) was not invented by Bible writers. It was a term used commonly in the Greco-Roman culture to speak of the pagan language of the gods which occurred while the speaker was in an ecstatic trance. By the way, this language of the gods was always gibberish. b. The Eros of the Greek World The Greeks had a word for this ecstatic religious experience. It was the word eros. Sometimes translated as sensual love, the word eros had a broader meaning. It meant "the desire for the sensual," or "the desire for the erotic," or "the desire for ecstasy," or "the desire for the ultimate experience or feeling." Their religion, then, was an erotic, sensual, ecstatic religion-- designed to be felt. In fact, when people went to their various temples to worship, they would actually enter into orgies with the temple priestesses. So the erotic, sexual, sensual, ecstatic religion was all rolled into one big ball along with the gibberish of divine utterances. And these mystery religions, which had been spawned in Babylon, had found their way into the Corinthian society...and the church. THE INFILTRATION OF CORINTH INTO THE CHURCH The Corinthian church had allowed the entire world system in which they existed to infiltrate their assembly. For example, they were emphasizing human philosophies (chapters 1-4), they had a hero worship cult (chapter 3), they were involved in terrible, gross, sexual immorality (chapters 5-6), they were suing each other in court (chapter 6), they had misevaluated their home and marriage relationships (chapter 7), they were confused about pagan feasts, idolatry, and things offered to idols (chapters 8-10), they had relinquished the proper place of women in the church (chapter 11), they had misunderstood the whole dimension of spiritual gifts (chapter 12), and they had lost hold of the one great thing--love (chapter 13). You see, they had let the satanic system that existed in their society infiltrate the church. And with it came the pagan religious practices--with all of the ecstasies, eroticisms, and sensualities. The Corinthians accepted it all, creating a confused amalgamation of truth and error."
    Macarthur
     
  18. Dave...

    Dave... New Member

    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why did and do all the pagan false religions mentioned above sound the same? Because they all came from the same sourse...Babylon.
    "The pagan cults of Greece and Rome were part of what are commonly called the mystery religions. By Pauls time they had dominated the near eastern world for thousands of years and indirectly would dominate much of western culture through the middle ages and, even untill today. The mystery religions had many forms and variations, but a common source. In his vision on the island of Patmos John was shown "the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters," on whose "forehead a name was written, a mystery, 'Babylon the great, the mother of all harlets and the abominationsof the earth'" (Rev. 17:1,5). Here the Lord pictures His judgment of the world religion. At the end of the Tribulation the true church will have been raptured (1 Thess. 4:13-18; Rev. 3:10) and the world will begin to establish a religion of it's own that will be truely universal. It will be the composite of all the worlds false religions, which will "give their power and authority to the beast, "the Antichrist" (Rev. 17:13). The final form of that all-powerful, universal religion will represent the completion of the mystery religions that historcally originated in ancient Babylon. In its organized form false religion began with the tower of Babel, from which Babylon derives it's name. Cain was the first false worshiper, and many individuals after him followed his example. But organized pagan religion began with the descendents of Ham, one of Noah's three sons, who decided to erect a great monument that would "reach into heaven" and make themselves a great name (Gen. 10:9-10; 11:4). Under the leadership of the proud and apostate Nimrod they planned to storm heaven and unify their power and prestige in a great worldwide system of worship. That was man's first counterfeit religion, from which every other false religion in one way or another has sprung. God's judgment frustrated their primary purpose of making a grand demonstration of huministic unity. By confusing "their language, that they may not understand one another's speach," and scattering "them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth" (Gen. 11:7- the Lord halted the building of the tower and fractured their solidarity. But those people took with them the seeds of that false, idolatrous religion, seeds that they and their descendants have been planting throughout the world ever since. The ideas and forms were altered, adapted, and sometimes made more sophisticated, but the basic system remained, and remains, unchanged. That is why Babel, or Babylon, is called "the mother of all harlets and of the abominations of the earth" (Rev. 17:5). She was the progenerator of all false religions. From various ancient sources, it seems that Nimrod's wife. Semiramis (the first), apparently was high priestess of the Babel religion and the founder of all mystery religions. After the tower was destroyed and the multiplicity of languages developed, she was worshiped as a goddess under many different names. She became Ishtar of Syria, Astarte of Phoenicia, Isis of Egypt, Aphrodite of Greese, and Venus of Rome--in each case the deity of sexual love and fertility. Her son, Tammuz, also came to be deified under various names and was the consort of Ishtar and and god of the underworld. According to the cult of Ishtar, Tammuz was conceived by a sunbeam, a counterfeit version of Jesus' virgin birth. Tammuz corresponded to Baal in Phoenicia, Orisis in Egypt, Eros in Greece, and Cupid in Rome. In every case, the worship of these gods and goddesses was assoiated with sexual immorality. The celebration of Lent has no basis in scripture, but rather developed from the pagan celebration of Semiramis's mourning for forty days over the death of Tammuz (cf. Ezek. 8:14) before his alleged resurrection--another of Satan's mythical counterfeits. The mystery religions originated the idea of baptismal regeneration, being born again merely through the rite of water baptism, and the practice of mutilation and flagellation to atone for sins or gain spiritual favor. They also began the custom of pilgrimages, which many religions follow today, and the paying of penance for forgiveness of sins foroneself and for others."
    (JMNTC)
     
  19. Dave...

    Dave... New Member

    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some of the History of tongues in the Bible and it's connection to the nation of Israel.
    GENESIS 11 In this important chapter describing the judgment upon Babel, tongues are mentioned for the very first time. Prior to Genesis 11 tongues (plural) did not exist! There was only one tongue throughout the inhabited earth: "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech" (Genesis 11:1). Foreign tongues made their first historical appearance in Genesis 11. God has a message for the people. Following the great Genesis flood, God gave this simple command to Noah and his sons: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth" (Genesis 9:1; cf. Genesis 9:7) How would the descendants of Noah respond to this divine command? The people refuse to listen to God. Instead of filling the earth as God had said, the people refused to obey. In their opposition to God’s Word and God’s will, they decided to build a huge tower and make a name for themselves, "Lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth" (Genesis 11:4). God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. For the first time in history foreign tongues were spoken: "Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech" (Genesis 11:7). God’s judgment fell upon a disobedient and godless people. Dispersion followed. "So the Lord scattered them abroad from there upon the face of all the earth" (Genesis 11:8). DEUTERONOMY 28 The Lord communicated His will to the nation Israel by giving the people His holy law. God set before them a blessing and a curse: a blessing if they would obey the commandments of the Lord, and a curse if they would disobey (Deuteronomy 11:26-28). The blessings and the curses that would come upon the nation are clearly enumerated in Deuteronomy 28. God has a message for the people. And it shall come to pass if thou shalt hearken dilligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all His commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth; And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God" (Deuteronomy 28:1). The people refuse to listen to God. But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee (Deuteronomy 28:15). God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. One of the curses which the Lord promised to bring upon His disobedient people was the terrible invasion of a conquering nation. As the foreigners would approach, Israel would hear the strange tongues of the enemy: The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand (Deuteronomy 28:49). Dispersion follows. And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no case, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind (Deuteronomy 28:64-65). JEREMIAH 5 God has a message for the people. Through the Prophet Jeremiah, the Lord pleaded with His people Israel that they might turn from their evil ways and return to the Lord their God: "If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto Me" (Jeremiah 4:1; cf. Matthew 11:28). God would have done so much if they had simply turned to Him (Psalm 81:8-16)! The people refuse to listen to God. O LORD, are not Thine eyes upon the truth? Thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; Thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return (Jeremiah 5:3). God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. When a people refuse to come to God, judgment must inevitably follow. The forbearance and long-suffering of God must someday come to an end. If Israel would not respond to Jeremiah’s warnings, then God would speak to the nation in a way they would never forget. Though they could not understand the strange tongues of their invaders, the message of their swords would be long remembered: Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, 0 house of Israel, saith the LORD: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say (Jeremiah 5:15). Dispersion follows. And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, Wherefore doeth the LORD our God all these things unto us? then shalt thou answer them, Like as ye have forsaken Me, and served strange gods in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land that is not yours (Jeremiah 5:19). For Israel, to be in the promised land was a sign of God’s blessing. To be out of the land, scattered and persecuted, was a sure indication that they were under God’s curse. ISAIAH 28 In his important discussion concerning the purpose of the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 14:21-22), the Apostle Paul cites Isaiah 28:11-12 as evidence that tongues was given as a sign "to them that believe not." A proper understanding of this important Old Testament passage is crucial in determining the Biblical purpose of tongues. In Isaiah 28:9-10 ungodly Jews were apparently mocking the message of God’s prophet, Isaiah. They were expressing their indignation at Isaiah’s infantile teaching methods! They questioned, "Does he take us grave and revered seigniors, priests, and prophets, to be babies just weaned, that he pesters us with these monotonous petty preachings, fit only for the nursery, which he calls his "message"?" [Alexander Maclaren, The Book of Isaiah: Chapters 1-48 (6th ed.; London: Hodder and Stoughton, n.d.), p. 478.] Isaiah’s message was clear and simple and even monotonous! Line upon line, line upon line . . . Sin brings judgment, sin brings judgment . . .Turn to God, turn to God . . . Isaiah used the Chinese water-torture technique of teaching: drop, drop, drop . . . sin, sin, sin . . . judgment, judgment, judgment . . . repent, repent, repent. . . . So it is not a surprise that his hearers began to say, "Who do you think we are, Isaiah? Babies? To whom do you think you are lecturing? Your repetitious preaching is fit for infants: "Sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav, ze’er sham ze’er sham" (see NASV marginal note). These unbelieving Jews rejected God’s message, they rejected God’s messenger, and they rejected the teaching methods of God’s messenger’s. The Lord responded to their unbelieving scoffing by imitating their mockery and setting forth the unintelligible language of a foreign conqueror (verse 11). God first spoke to them through Isaiah’s clear and simple message. Now He will speak in judgment to them through a foreign tongue. He will speak to them with stammering lips and another (different, strange, foreign) tongue (cf. Acts 2:4 and 1 Corinthians 14:21--"other tongues"). These people closed their ears and refused the proclamation of a heavenly message. God then became, as it were, a barbarian to these people. The Assyrian tongue, which soon surrounded the Israelites, must have sounded to them like the lisping of children. It was a much less cultivated language than Hebrew, and had only the three basic vowels: a, i, and u. Because they would not hear words of comfort in their own language, they had to hear the enemy’s harsh sounds. [John Peter Lange, Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Isaiah, trans. and ed. by Philip Schaff (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, n.d.), p. 306.] God graciously would have given the people the rest that is found in Himself (cf. Matthew 11:28; Isaiah 30:15-17; Psalm 81:8-16), but they refused to listen. God’s wonderful promise of comfort and rest was tragically rejected. The Israelites were sick and tired of Isaiah’s repetitive assertions that sin was rampant, judgment was coming, and a return to God was the only answer. Finally, in verses 11-13 Isaiah tells these mockers that God will indeed speak to this people. This time His message will not come through Isaiah, but through a foreign tongue. When the enemy would enter their borders, killing many, and taking others captive, they would begin to get the message! Once again the terrible pattern is repeated: God has a message for the people. To whom He said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing (Isaiah 28:12). The people refuse to listen to God. Yet they would not hear (Isaiah 28:12). God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people (Isaiah 28:11). Dispersion follows. That they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (Isaiah 28:13). ISAIAH 33 To the nation Israel, foreign tongues was a sign of God’s judgment and curse upon them. Likewise, the absence of foreign tongues is a sign that the nation is under the blessing of God. In Isaiah 33:17 Israel is given a wonderful promise concerning the future millennial kingdom: "Thine eyes shall see the king in His beauty." Certainly, during the kingdom age, Israel will enjoy God’s richest blessings! No longer will they be under God’s curse. Never again will they be invaded by foreign nations. They will dwell safely and securely in the land of promise, protected by the King Himself. Thus, the absence of foreign tongues will be a sign of God’s abundant blessing upon the nation: You will no longer see a fierce people, a people of unintelligible speech which no one comprehends, of a stammering tongue which no one understands" (Isaiah 33:19 NASV). THE PATTERN REPEATED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT Those who fail to learn from the lessons of history are bound to repeat its mistakes. The Assyrian and Babylonian captivities should have taught Israel a lesson. On the pages of the New Testament, however, the same disastrous pattern emerges. God has a message for the people. Come unto Me. . . and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28; cf. Jeremiah 4:1; Isaiah 28:12). The people refuse to listen to God. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathered her chickens under her wings, and ye would not [you were not willing, you refused] (Matthew 23:37). God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. The Lord Jesus predicted the terrible judgment that would come upon the nation which had refused God and rejected His Messiah: Behold, your house is left unto you desolate . . . Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down (Matthew 23:38; 24:2). The destruction of Jerusalem took place in 70 A.D. as the city was invaded by the Roman armies, led by General Titus. For the next two thousand years the living God would not dwell in a temple made with hands, but He would dwell in a unique body of believers, and in each member in particular (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 1 Corinthians 6:19). God’s program was shifting from Israel to the Church. Years earlier God had caused foreign tongues to be spoken and heard as a judgmental sign to the nation Israel (Acts 2; 10; 19, etc.). For those Jews who were familiar with their Old Testament, the sounds of foreign tongues gave no cause for rejoicing! Tongues were a sign of God’s curse, not of God’s blessing. Tongues signified a coming invasion, and conveyed an ominous message of rebellion, judgment, and dispersion. When God spoke in tongues, the Jews understood the message (Isaiah 28:11; 1 Corinthians 14:21). The gift of tongues was a sign-gift, given to an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting nation: "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not" (1 Corinthians 14:22). Dispersion follows. The nation Israel has been scattered throughout the world for nearly two thousand years! They have been out of the land, severely persecuted, and God’s curse has been upon them: "His blood be on us, and on our children" (Matthew 27:25). Although a small remnant has returned to the land, the nation is still without a temple and there is no rest or peace in the land. The destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A.D. was something from which the nation of Israel has never recovered!
    Unknown (lost) source.
     
  20. Dave...

    Dave... New Member

    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Gift of tongues as a sign for Israel, explained.From Macarthur's NT commentary The gift of tongues was given solely as a sign to unbelieving Israel. 1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written: “ With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” (Isaiah 28:11-12) says the Lord.
    The sign was threefold: a sign of cursing, a sign of blessing, and a sign of authority. A SIGN OF CURSING Some 15 years or so before Isaiah prophesied about the strange tongues from the lips of strangers, the northern kingdom of Israel had been conquered and taken captive by the Assyrians (in 722 BC) because of unbelief and apostasy. The prophet then warned the southern kingdom, Judah, that the same judgment awaited her at the hands of the Babylonians. The proud religious leaders of Judah would not listen to Isaiah. His teaching was too simple. He talked to them, they claimed, as if they were babies, "Those just weaned from milk" and "just taken from the breast." He taught them as if they were kindergartners: "Order on order, order on order, line on line, line on line, a little here, a little there" (Isaiah 28:9-10). God had indeed spoken to them simply, in order that the least mature among them could understand and so that no Israelite would have an excuse for not knowing the Lord's will and promise. The essence of His promise was, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary," and "Here is repose"; yet Israel "would not listen" (v.12) Isaiah 28:12. About 800 years before Isaiah, God had warned Israel that "The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand" (Deuteronomy 28:49). the strange language of their conquerers would be a sign of God's judgment. About 100 years after Isaiah, the Lord warned through Jeremiah, "Behold, I am bringing a nation against you from afar, O house of Israel,...a nation whose language you do not know, nor can you understand what they say" (Jeremiah 5:15). The sign of judgment would be a language they could not understand. When the apostles spoke at Pentecost and were heard in their own language by Jews from many countries (Acts 2:7-11), those Jews should have known that Gods judgment was imminent. His judgment had fallen on rebellious Israel and then on rebellious Judah. How much more would it fall on those of His people who now had crucified the Son of God? In AD 70 that judgment fell, when Jerusalem was utterly destroyed by the Roman general Titus (later emperor). Over one million Jews were slaughtered; thousands more were taken captive; the Temple was plundered, desecrated, and then utterly destroyed; and the rest of the city was burned to the ground. One historian comments that Jerusalem had no history for 60 years. Just as Jesus had predicted when He wept over the city, "Your enemies will throw up a bank before you, and surround you, and hem you in on every side, and will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation" (Luke 19:44; cf. Luke 21:20-24). After the destruction of Jerusalem, and especially of the Temple, the reason for tongues ceased to exist. The judgment of which it was a sign had come. After the Pentecost manifestation of tongues, Peter, by implication, reminded his hearers of that judgment: " Therefor let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified" (Acts 2:36;cf.vv. Acts 2:22-23). A SIGN OF BLESSING The second sign was a residual benefit of the first. The gift of tongues was a sign that God would no longer work through one nation, and favor one people. The church of Jesus Christ was for all peoples of all nations, a church in which there are many languages but no barriers. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 ). With great compassion and sorrow for his fellow Jews, Paul wrote in Romans,"But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous." But with a note of great hope he continued, "Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!" (Romans 11:11-12). A few verses later he explains more fully:" For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written" (vv.25-26) Romans 11:25-26. The way would always be open for individual Jews to come into the kingdom, for the hardening was only partial, and one day the entire nation of Israel would be brought back to her Lord. The sign of tongues was repeated when the Gentiles were included in the church, as recorded in Acts 10:44-46. A SIGN OF AUTHORITY Those who preached the judgment and promised the blessing were the apostles and prophets, whose authority was validated by "signs and wonders and miracles" (2 Corinthians 12:12;cf. Romans 15:19). Among the authenticating signs was the gift of tongues, in which Paul spoke "more than you all" (1 Corinthians 14:18 ). As a sign, the purpose of tongues ended when that to which it pointed ended. A person driving to Los Angeles may see the first mileage sign about 300 miles away. Later he sees one that reads "200 miles to Los Angeles," and then "50 miles," and then "10 miles." After he passes through the city, however, the mileage signs to Los Angeles cease. They have no further purpose, because that to which they pointed has been reached and passed. The gift of tongues was attached irretrievably to one point in history, and that point has long been passed. It is interesting, and I believe highly significant, that no record is given is of a single word spoken in tongues or even interpreted. Every reference to tongues is general. They are always mentioned in relation to their purpose and significance, never in relation to their specific content. The messages given in tongues were not new revelations or new insights, but, as at Pentecost, simply unique expressions of old truths, "the mighty deeds of God" (Acts 2:11). Though tongues could edify when interpreted, their purpose was not to teach, but to point, not to reveal God's truth but to validate the truth of his appointed spokesmen. Since the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 there has been no purpose for the sign gift of tongues, because that to which it pointed has been reached and passed.. Israel has been set aside, the Gentiles have been brought in, and the apostles have given the faith once-for-all delivered to the saints.
    (MacArthur)
     
Loading...