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Speaking In Tongues

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by iakwe2002, Jul 27, 2007.

  1. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    (TallMan;15197)
    Tongues is not one of the fruit of the Spirit.All true christians have Jesus Christ inside and there is no such thing as Jesus without his mind, character, strength etc so all christians have all the attributes of knowledge, wisdom, discernment, prophecy, tongues and interpretation - that's why Paul has to reason with the Corinthians not to all speak in tongues when they meet.If, as you say, only some had tongues, the problem could never have arisen."The gifts are the meetings-use (giving to the church) of what all Christians have privately.1Co:1:4: I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;:5: That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;:6: Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:The prophets were under the Old Covenant/Testament, that's why they didn't speak in tongues.Tongues is God's sign for entering the New Covenant - the new tongue signifies the new heart . .. just like God gave a specific sign for previous covenants and just like we give our signature when we enter into a covenant.
    believe as you wish, I have made my point....God bless.
     
  2. Dave...

    Dave... New Member

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    TallMan wrote:
    1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. 21 In the law it is written: “ With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this peopl (Israel); And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”says the Lord.22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.Concerning vs. 2, a better translation is probably "a god"...vs. 9 calls the same thing speaking into the air. Not to God? Should we just pick the one that suits us and close our minds and heart to look further?
    The verse you quoted is not the true gift of tongues which are no longer a sign to Israel. But the false pagan gift. In the context of the gifts...Can you pass this test?(1)1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.(2)1 Corinthians 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails.(3)1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.The Holy Spirit does not produce a clanging symbol. Only the flesh can.Praying in the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with tongues. If you are self seeking, you are doing this from the flesh, and not the Holy Spirit.
    All these verses are speaking of our spirit. Notice the small "s". Most of the reliable translations understand this distinction and translate accordingly. Compare to 1 Corinthians 12:3-12 where the word "Spirit" is a capitalized "S" because it is refereing to the Holy Spirit. TallMan wrote:
    16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. "s"= our spirit, not the Holy Spirit. Love your Lord God with all your mind...TallMan Wrote:
    And that transition period is over, as I have explained. Unless you are a OT saint who was living having faith before Christ died on the cross, and are still living, then this does not apply to you. The transition is over, no need to wait for the Holy Spirit, you receive Him as a seal of promise of your inheretance the moment you believe (1 Corinthians 12:13). The sign of God's judgment on the nation of Israel has ceased. The birth of the Church is over, now there is only growth. The scripture that you posted dose not say what you claim. It's a very general statement where much is assumed. Yes, the Holy Spirit is the source of anything good that comes from us for the Church John 15:5, 1 Corinthians 4:7, Zechariah 4:6. Everything. And everything good that comes from us for the church is an undeserved gift from God.TallMan Wrote:
    "Being filled with the spirit must be distinguished from being baptized with the spirit. The apostle Paul carefully defines the baptism with the spirit as that act of Christ by which He places believers into His body (Romans 6:4-6; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27). In contrast to much errant teaching today, the New Testament nowhere commands believers to seek the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is a sovereign, single, unrepeatable act on Gods part, and is no more an experience than are its companions justification and adoption. Although some wrongly view the baptism with the Spirit as the initiation into the ranks of the spiritual elite, nothing could be further from the truth. The purpose of the baptism with the spirit is not to divide the body of Christ, but to unify it. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, through the baptism with the Spirit "we were all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13; cf. Galatians 3:26-27; Ephesians 4:4-6) Unlike the baptism with the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit is an experience and should be continuous. Although filled initially on the day of Pentecost, Peter was filled again in Acts 4:8. Many of the same people filled with the Spirit in Acts 2 were filled again in Acts 4:31. Acts 6:5 describes Stephen as a man "full of faith and the Holy Spirit," yet Acts 7:55 records his being filled again. Paul was filled with the Spirit in Acts 9:17 and again in Acts 13:9. While there is no command in scripture to be baptized with the Spirit, believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18 ). The grammatical construction of that passage indicates believers are to be continuously being filled with the Spirit. Those who would be filled with the Spirit must first empty themselves. That involves confession of sin and dying to selfishness and self will. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to consciously practice the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and to have a mind saturated with the Word of God. Colossians 3:16-25 delineates the results of "letting the word of Christ richly dwell" in us. They are the same ones that result from the filling of the Spirit (Ephesians 5:19-33). As believers yield the moment by moment decisions of life to His control, they "walk by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16). The baptism of the Spirit grants the power that the filling with the Spirit unleashes." (Macarthur) A side note: A proper understanding of being "filled" is not to think of us as a glass being filled with water, being "filled actually means to be more under the control of the Holy Spirit. Once again, We are given the HS without measure John 3:34, and when we are born again we are complete in Him, lacking nothing Colossians 2:9-12, 2 Peter 1:3-4.
    He means just what he says. This has nothing to do with tongues.
    Exactly!. Now do you believe that it is possible to pray/speak according to God's will without tongues? 1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.It is God the Holy Sprit who teaches me these things or moves me to pray or praise. Anything that I say, in prayer, or otherwise, that is according to the Word of God is from God, hence it is from the Holy Spirit, hence I am praying/praising/teaching etc. in the Spirit.
    Again, this is nowhere taut=ght in scripture."which cannot be uttered" God's Word says it. Do you believe it?To follow your logic. Are you saying that the "Holy Spirit, who knows all things and who created all things by the word and by wisdom" cannot lead a person to pray in a language that can be understood by the same person? Bypassing the mind?
    In English, with all my heart, mind and soul.
    Primary1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. 21 In the law it is written: “ With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” says the Lord.22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.Secondary1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. Even real tongues could not edify the believers. Only the interpretation of them could.
    The apostles got the same reaction from the Scribes and Pharisees."The Charismatic movement gained credence and initial acceptance by claiming their gifts were the same as those in Acts. For most people that is why they are credible today." That is, because most people believe the Charismatic movement offers the promise of the same gifts described in the New Testament. "Yet," he says, "Now, when challenged by the obvious fact that their gifts don’t meet Biblical standards, one of their primary defenses is to claim that their gifts are not the same as those gifts in the New Testament. Faced with the facts, they have had to revoke the very foundation of their original reason for existence." (Thomas Edgar )
    I have all these things without tongues. When I pray, praise in private or in the assembly of believers, in English, or teach teach within the Body in English, I don't need a interpreter, I always understand what I'm saying, and so does everyone else. I'm not sure how tongues is equal or a improvement on what prophecy can acomplish within the setting of believers. BTW...Prophesying is for believers (we preach Christ crucified) Although prophecy was used by God to reveal His written Word, the word "prophecy" never meant anything more than speaking forth, to proclaim. In 1 Cor. 14:3 Paul tells us what the gift of prophecy is for "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort". And elsewhere we see that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, and the Bible is the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 19:10, John 5:39 I've gone over most of this stuff in my original posts already. Dave
     
  3. MickinEngland

    MickinEngland New Member

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    There's another danger with tongues that we tend to forget - I was with several friends in a cafe having a coffee when a young street-preacher came in and we invited him to join us,even though we vaguely knew him from the past and he had a slight reputation for being a 'false christian'.After a while he offered to say a prayer for us so we agreed and he closed his eyes and began praying - "Dear God...", but then to our surprise he began babbling like this - "hubba-da-bubba-da-bubba-da-bubba..." for about 2 minutes, then ended with "Amen", and we all automatically repeated "Amen" too, even though we hadn't a clue what he'd been babbling about!Do you see the danger?For all we knew, he may have been a devil-worshipper and his tongue-speaking may have been his own personal language to speak to Satan.He made no attempt to interpret it for us, so it could have meant "Dear Satan my god, I curse all these Christians on your behalf", then when he ended with "Amen", we all said "Amen" too, like idiots even though we didn't know what the babbling meant!Personally I don't tongue-speak because I've never felt the need, but if others want to do it to make themselves feel closer to God it's up to them, providing they're aware of Pauls guidelines -"..anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may INTERPRET what he says" (1 Cor 14:13)"I would RATHER HAVE YOU PREACH.. " (1 Cor 14:5)"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he DOES NOT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?" (1 Cor 14:16-19)Incidentally my sister looked in on a church near her once but never went back because she said it was "like a madhouse" with everybody noisily tongue-speaking without interpreting, and waving their arms etc.That's not good -"If the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are OUT OF YOUR MIND?" (1 Cor 14:23)So- "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to preach, but do not forbid speaking in tongues,but everything should be done IN A FITTING AND ORDERLY WAY" (1 Cor 14:39-40)
     
  4. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Yes that is the danger there MickEngland, speaking in that tongue is gibberish...A made up blah blah blah...The very word for tongue(s) is language(s). If someone speak in true tongue, it means speaking foreign languages. (like German, Spanish, Hebrew, Greek etc), not "hubba, hubba, ditty, ditty" made up tongue, that's not even a language.So yes that's from Satan alright.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  5. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    After a while he offered to say a prayer for us so we agreed and he closed his eyes and began praying - "Dear God...", but then to our surprise he began babbling like this - "hubba-da-bubba-da-bubba-da-bubba..." for about 2 minutes, then ended with "Amen", and we all automatically repeated "Amen" too, even though we hadn't a clue what he'd been babbling about!Do you see the danger?
    Well Mick, you might have agreeing with the devil sinse you did not know what he was praying to.
     
  6. MickinEngland

    MickinEngland New Member

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    Yes, and there's another aspect of tongue-speaking that needs to be looked at - possible demonic possession.Naturally I'm not saying all tongue-speakers are possessed, but consider this -A well-known young woman poster on the religious boards who is a church-going christian once said that she speaks in tongues while "doing the housework" and that she "gets messages from God".Yet she regularly attacks me on the boards for no reason, calling me a "perverted woman-chasing false christian who also probably likes playing with little girls", none of which is true.I don't know what "messages" she gets, but they're certainly not from God...So perhaps in some cases, tongue-speakers go into some sort of trance and "hear voices" from the devil himself?
     
  7. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    There's another danger with tongues that we tend to forget - I was with several friends in a cafe having a coffee when a young street-preacher came in and we invited him to join us,even though we vaguely knew him from the past and he had a slight reputation for being a 'false christian'.After a while he offered to say a prayer for us so we agreed and he closed his eyes and began praying - "Dear God...", but then to our surprise he began babbling like this - "hubba-da-bubba-da-bubba-da-bubba..." for about 2 minutes, then ended with "Amen", and we all automatically repeated "Amen" too, even though we hadn't a clue what he'd been babbling about!Do you see the danger?For all we knew, he may have been a devil-worshipper and his tongue-speaking may have been his own personal language to speak to Satan.He made no attempt to interpret it for us, so it could have meant "Dear Satan my god, I curse all these Christians on your behalf", then when he ended with "Amen", we all said "Amen" too, like idiots even though we didn't know what the babbling meant!Personally I don't tongue-speak because I've never felt the need, but if others want to do it to make themselves feel closer to God it's up to them, providing they're aware of Pauls guidelines -"..anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may INTERPRET what he says" (1 Cor 14:13)"I would RATHER HAVE YOU PREACH.. " (1 Cor 14:5)"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he DOES NOT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?" (1 Cor 14:16-19)Incidentally my sister looked in on a church near her once but never went back because she said it was "like a madhouse" with everybody noisily tongue-speaking without interpreting, and waving their arms etc.That's not good -"If the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are OUT OF YOUR MIND?" (1 Cor 14:23)So- "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to preach, but do not forbid speaking in tongues,but everything should be done IN A FITTING AND ORDERLY WAY" (1 Cor 14:39-40)
    In my opinion, the vast majority of what is past off as tongue speaking, is not of God. The first Christians on the day of Pentecost, who spoke in tongues, did not speak to other believers, but to none believers, who spoke another language that the one who was inspired to speak did not speak.
     
  8. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

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    TallMan wrote:"It allows the Holy Spirit to lead you into the peace, love and power that you as a natural man cannot understand."I have all these things without tongues.
    No, you only have your natural love . . just like Cornelius (Acts 10) and the people in Acts 8:5-16 who had joy and faith, but were known not to have received the Spirit - how ?I've told you (or rather the scriptures have).
     
  9. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

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    Amen Tallman,Most people that have never experienced this wonderful gift from God, try there best to shoot it down so that they can feel good about not having it. Simply put, they are really jeolous that they don't have it!But it is availlable to all who are believers in Jesus!
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Well, everybody has an opinion, but I will tell you this...The whole tongue speaking requirement is not biblical. In fact, we all are speaking in tongue. Everybody can speak in at least one tongue. Are you guys speaking English? I'm no where near the "jealousy" you guys called it.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  11. Dave...

    Dave... New Member

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    TallMan, again, I have all these things without tongues. What you claim as tongues are not Biblical tongues and not a requirement for adequite prayer, spritual maturity, or salvation. The fruit of the Spirit is for all believers who have the Holy Spirit. Dave
     
  12. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

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    . . . I will tell you this...The whole tongue speaking requirement is not biblical. In fact, we all are speaking in tongue. . . .
    thesuper - why do you just ignore the scripture I quoted and just blam-out your opinion? - maybe you love it more than to bother opening the bible?Please dust-off your copy, read Acts 8:5-16 and tell me, how did they know that these believers in Jesus had not received the Holy Spirit (whereby Jesus saves - Titus 3:5-6, John 3:5-8).The answer is already given in Acts 2:4, 33, 39 where the same apostles of Jesus are preaching the same gospel!"Speaking in tongues" or "new tongues" as Jesus put it in Mark 16:17, or "unknown tongue" as Paul put it in 1 Cor. 14:2, 4, 14-18 was and is unknown to the speaker - that's the point! To allow God to lead us in prayer to him beyond our own limited understanding.
     
  13. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

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    TallMan, again, I have all these things without tongues. What you claim as tongues are not Biblical tongues and not a requirement for adequite prayer, spritual maturity, or salvation. The fruit of the Spirit is for all believers who have the Holy Spirit.
    So you keep saying, but as I replied before, you only have your natural love . . just like Cornelius (Acts 10) and the people in Acts 8:5-16 who had joy and faith, but were known not to have received the Spirit.The fact that you ignored the passages shows no maturity or fruit.
     
  14. Dave...

    Dave... New Member

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    So you keep saying, but as I replied before, you only have your natural love . . just like Cornelius (Acts 10) and the people in Acts 8:5-16 who had joy and faith, but were known not to have received the Spirit.The fact that you ignored the passages shows no maturity or fruit.
    Love, as a fruit of the Spirit, meaning the Holy spirit, is not a natural love, no matter how much badly that you would like this to be. God bless...Dave
     
  15. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

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    Love, as a fruit of the Spirit, meaning the Holy spirit, is not a natural love, no matter how much badly that you would like this to be. God bless...Dave
    Dave, you aren't showing much love, natural or spiritual - I have made the point that natural love is not to be taken as fruit of the Spirit. Would you care to correct yourself and deal with the passages I quote?
     
  16. Dave...

    Dave... New Member

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    TallMan wrote:
    Please dust-off your copy, read Acts 8:5-16 and tell me, how did they know that these believers in Jesus had not received the Holy Spirit (whereby Jesus saves - Titus 3:5-6, John 3:5-8).The answer is already given in Acts 2:4, 33, 39 where the same apostles of Jesus are preaching the same gospel!"Speaking in tongues" or "new tongues" as Jesus put it in Mark 16:17, or "unknown tongue" as Paul put it in 1 Cor. 14:2, 4, 14-18 was and is unknown to the speaker - that's the point! To allow God to lead us in prayer to him beyond our own limited understanding.
    I have answered this already. All the scripture you posted has been dealt with in previous posts. You tried to make a point that tongue speakers have superior love. I showed you that love is a manifestation of the Spirit, which we all have access to, not just those who claim to speak in languages. Why don't you understand this? I have answered everything that you have asked, sometimes even before you asked the question. Go back and read my posts, and then you will know that I have already answered your questions. If you have questions about my answers, then please ask. But I will not keep reposting the same things over and over.Dave
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    thesuper - why do you just ignore the scripture I quoted and just blam-out your opinion? - maybe you love it more than to bother opening the bible?.
    I could ask the same of you In the first of this thread and others on this board there is tons of scripture saying what this is and what rules are to be followed yet you only see what you want. Futhermore the term "unknown Tongue" isnt even in the manuscripts.
     
  18. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    thesuper - why do you just ignore the scripture I quoted and just blam-out your opinion? - maybe you love it more than to bother opening the bible?.
    I could ask the same of you In the first of this thread and others on this board there is tons of scripture saying what this is and what rules are to be followed yet you only see what you want. Futhermore the term "unknown Tongue" isnt even in the manuscripts.Kriss is absolutely right that the word unknown...there is no greek word for unknown. Besides I'll say this we are all speaking in tongue...Let me ask all of you a question, How many tongue(s) do you speak? I'll answer my own. I only speak in a English tongue.Lovest ye in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  19. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

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    I have answered this already. All the scripture you posted has been dealt with in previous posts. Dave
    Yes you came out with the old "transition period" theory to explain away the fact that you don't speak in tongues like all the disciples (and those they were sent to) did, yet you claim to be of the same faith.1 Cor. 13v8-12 talks about 2 time periods, "now" and "then"."Then", God's people shall know even as they known !They shall see Him face to face !That clearly isn't true yet so we are still in the "now" period."Now" Christians see through a glass darkly, so we are clearly not in the second time period, so tongues have not ceased, neither have the other means of communication such as prophecy and we still have the natural unredeemed bodies so the need for healing is still here.If you want to receive the fulness of God's love "then", you should want to receive what he offers now to prepare his bride.Do you want to receive the wedding garment by receiving the Holy Spirit now, as detailed in the New Testament (Acts 2:4, 33, 39; 10:44-46 etc.) ?(Dave...;16955)
    You tried to make a point that tongue speakers have superior love.
    Indeed, when Jesus asked Peter for agape in John 21:15-17 he could only offer phileos.The agape only somes when you get the "new heart", by receiving the Spirit:-"the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost " (Romans 5:5)signified by the "new tongue", praying in tongues / "praying in the Holy Spirit" whereby you build up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God (Jude 20)Jude is able to contrast this with those who "separate themselves" (say they are Christians) but who he knows don't have the Spirit (v19) - just like in Acts they took tongues as the sign of receiving the Spirit.(Dave...;16955)
    I showed you that love is a manifestation of the Spirit, which we all have access to, not just those who claim to speak in languages. Why don't you understand this?
    You are presuming that your love is in fact agape, it isn't, you must be converted by God, you have no right to judge your own heart, (Jer. 17:9), you must wait for God's independant witness as detailed.If you refuse this, then you merely bare witness of yourself and reject Jesus and his salvation, choosing "another Jesus" (2 Cor.11:4) of your own imagination.
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I find it interesting how tongue speakers always quote a few verses in Cor. yet fail to read rest of the chapters. Where it says you only speak this for yourSelf it should never be spoken in groups larger than 2 or 3 without an interpreter and without the gift of interpretation. In fact it goes on to say without an interpeter this is useless.You defenders of tongues fail to explain why unsaved person or sinner can walk into a church that practices this an can speak this so called spiritual tongues.An event that was such an miracoulus event that a Book (acts)was written about it and it was bestowed upon the very prophets of God to help establish his church. Yet now you claim that any Tom,Dick or Harry can have this miracle sinner or not.
     
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