Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
34,565
22,559
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Consider this supplemental also. Sorry for the confusion, but this should address your question on limitations to apostle's hands.

Start with John the Baptist's comments in Luke 3:16 regarding baptism with the Holy Ghost and then the Luke 24:49 comment made by Jesus to his apostles telling them to tarry in Jerusalem until they received power from on high. As previously stated, this did occur as recorded in Acts 2 wherein the apostles were given that power and the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of cloven tongues of fire. They then spoke in earthly tongues as a sign to the unbelieving Jews who were afterwards converted. The apostles only had the power from on high with which they performed miracles etc., those miraculous gifts of the Spirit that they only could pass on by the laying on of their hands as stated in Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6, Acts 6:8 with Stephen doing miraculous things after the laying on of the apostle's hands ad noted in Acts 6:6, Acts 8:17-18, Acts 19:6. Plenty of examples of the power given to the apostles and evidence that they only had the power by which they were able to manifest through the laying on of their hands. They are dead as well as all that they laid their hands on. The miraculous manifestation of those gifts of the Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 have ceased as noted they would in 1 Cor 13:8.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
Would you mind posting a passage itself that says this?

I can spend a lot of time looking up this list of references . . . I mean, for instance,

Your assertion:

those miraculous gifts of the Spirit that they only could pass on by the laying on of their hands as stated in Acts 5:12,

Acts 5:12 KJV
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

This passage doesn't mention spiritual gifts.

OK, let's take one more: Acts 6:6,

Acts 6:5-7 KJV
5) And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6) Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
7) And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Same as above, no mention of spiritual gifts.

Much love!
 

DJT_47

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2022
1,038
351
83
Michigan/Sterling Heights
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You've posted some references, and you've posted some passages, but I'm not seeing where you've posted Scripture that the spiritual gifts were only through laying on of the apostles' hands, could you be more specific? Maybe post the text of a passage which ways this? Bold the specific words that say so?

Much love!
I did on a different response to you.
 

DJT_47

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2022
1,038
351
83
Michigan/Sterling Heights
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Would you mind posting a passage itself that says this?

I can spend a lot of time looking up this list of references . . . I mean, for instance,

Your assertion:

those miraculous gifts of the Spirit that they only could pass on by the laying on of their hands as stated in Acts 5:12,

Acts 5:12 KJV
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

This passage doesn't mention spiritual gifts.

OK, let's take one more: Acts 6:6,

Acts 6:5-7 KJV
5) And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6) Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
7) And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Same as above, no mention of spiritual gifts.

Much love!
You stopped 1 verse short in 6: thru 8 says Stephen then demonstrated various gifts after the laying on of apostle's hands. And 2 things in Acts 8:9-17. One, Simon the sorcerer was a baptized believer who wanted to purchase the gifts after he saw they were manifested by the laying on of the apostle's hands. And two, Peter and John prayed for those in Samaria that they might receive the Holy Ghost since it had not yet fallen on them, and afterwards, they laid their hands on the to impart the manifestation of the Spirit. This also shows that just because you're a baptized believer doesn't mean you automatically receive the gifts of the Spirit, but only have the Holy Spirit itself per Acts 2:38, but not any of the miraculous gifts. Similar in Acts 19:6. The Ephesians were baptized in the name of the Lord but still required the laying on of Paul's hands to receive the miraculous gifts.
Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6-8, Acts 8:9-17, Acts 19:6
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
34,565
22,559
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You stopped 1 verse short in 6: thru 8 says Stephen then demonstrated various gifts after the laying on of apostle's hands. And 2 things in Acts 8:9-17. One, Simon the sorcerer was a baptized believer who wanted to purchase the gifts after he saw they were manifested by the laying on of the apostle's hands. And two, Peter and John prayed for those in Samaria that they might receive the Holy Ghost since it had not yet fallen on them, and afterwards, they laid their hands on the to impart the manifestation of the Spirit. This also shows that just because you're a baptized believer doesn't mean you automatically receive the gifts of the Spirit, but only have the Holy Spirit itself per Acts 2:38, but not any of the miraculous gifts. Similar in Acts 19:6. The Ephesians were baptized in the name of the Lord but still required the laying on of Paul's hands to receive the miraculous gifts.
Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6-8, Acts 8:9-17, Acts 19:6
I've already looked at some of these, they don't say what you are saying they do. You've named a number of references but you haven't quoted any.

I understand we don't just automatically receive all or some or whatever we want of spiritual gifts, it's as God wills.

Who is the "each"? The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each for the profit of all. Who are the "each"? What does that text portray?

Nothing in the Bible teaches that God can't or won't give spiritual gifts apart from the laying on of hands.

And Timothy, the presbytery, not the Apostles.

And me. I don't expect you are going to convince me God didn't do what He did in me.

Much love!
 
Last edited:

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
34,565
22,559
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
One, Simon the sorcerer was a baptized believer who wanted to purchase the gifts after he saw they were manifested by the laying on of the apostle's hands.
Not the gifts, the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:17-18 KJV
17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18) And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
34,565
22,559
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Similar in Acts 19:6. The Ephesians were
Acts 19:5-7 KJV
5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7) And all the men were about twelve.

Paul laid hand on them, and the Holy Spirit came on them. Not the gifts. Having received the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues and prophesied, either simply by the Holy Spirit coming upon them to do so, or that the Holy Spirit gave His gifts having come on them.

But here again, this does not tell us that the spiritual gifts come only through the laying of of hands by the Apostles.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
34,565
22,559
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This also shows that just because you're a baptized believer doesn't mean you automatically receive the gifts of the Spirit, but only have the Holy Spirit itself per Acts 2:38, but not any of the miraculous gifts.
1 Corinthians 12:28-31 KJV
28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31) But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Is this something you should do?

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
34,565
22,559
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1 Corinthians 14:1 KJV
1) Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Should we?

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

DJT_47

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2022
1,038
351
83
Michigan/Sterling Heights
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Acts 19:5-7 KJV
5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7) And all the men were about twelve.

Paul laid hand on them, and the Holy Spirit came on them. Not the gifts. Having received the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues and prophesied, either simply by the Holy Spirit coming upon them to do so, or that the Holy Spirit gave His gifts having come on them.

But here again, this does not tell us that the spiritual gifts come only through the laying of of hands by the Apostles.

Much love!
What do you think tongues is? Is it not one of the miraculous gifts of the spirit listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10? Aren't miracles on that list as well? You obviously don't want to see what's written there. Goodbye. Believe whatever nonsense you like.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
9,276
4,104
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?

The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.
You can't be serious, but I imagine that you are.

This is the position of Cessationism that you are promoting. (which you may already know)
The idea that the gifts (manifestations) of the Holy Spirit were sign gifts limited to a specific time. ???
Is that what you are about?

The other position is Continuationism, which states that the gifts are distributed to the Body of Christ
and the body would not be complete without them. As the 1 Corinthians chapter twelve text makes VERY clear.
 

DJT_47

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2022
1,038
351
83
Michigan/Sterling Heights
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You can't be serious, but I imagine that you are.

This is the position of Cessationism that you are promoting. (which you may already know)
The idea that the gifts (manifestations) of the Holy Spirit were sign gifts limited to a specific time. ???
Is that what you are about?

The other position is Continuationism, which states that the gifts are distributed to the Body of Christ
and the body would not be complete without them. As the 1 Corinthians chapter twelve text makes VERY clear.
That's exactly correct. The gifts have ceased just as 1 Cor 13:8 said they would. If the gifts haven't ceased, literally, everyone in every church everywhere should be performing miracles, healing people, etc, but instead they're babbling a bunch of gibberish and claiming they have gifts of the Spirit, and the hospitals are full of the sick including Christians. Something doesn't add up and logically so. Its because the gifts of the Spirit have cease.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
9,276
4,104
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's exactly correct. The gifts have ceased just as 1 Cor 13:8 said they would. If the gifts haven't ceased, literally, everyone in every church everywhere should be performing miracles, healing people, etc, but instead they're babbling a bunch of gibberish and claiming they have gifts of the Spirit, and the hospitals are full of the sick including Christians. Something doesn't add up and logically so. Its because the gifts of the Spirit have cease.
Thanks for your reply.
I'm familiar with this common argument.
Consider this...

You are dismissing two chapters of the Apostle's instructions about spiritual manifestations (gifts)
based on the misunderstand of one verse in the chapter between them.

Are you claiming that the New Testament is the perfection that was to come?
That the canon that the RCC gave us (one of three) is a closed book?
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
34,565
22,559
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You obviously don't want to see what's written there. Goodbye. Believe whatever nonsense you like.
There's no call for that! If you want to go deeper into this, let's do!

Much love!
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
16,004
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The problem with most people is that they erroneously assume it was written to us; it wasn't, but does have peripheral meaning and application to us.
What is written in the NT cannot simply have "peripherical" meaning for Christians in other ages and other times. Spiritual gifts were given to the Church, and the Church has continued ever since Pentecost.

At the same time many seem to forget that "the signs of an apostle" were for the apostolic period and exercised by the apostles and their companions. The signs, wonders, and miracles performed by the apostles are no longer performed . We also need to see that tongues were also a sign gift for unbelieving Jews and Paul clearly states that. So after Paul turned away from the Jews and focused on the Gentiles, would tongues even be relevant? (Modern tongues are not biblical tongues.)

Today the prayer of faith brings about miracles of healing. But there are many other spiritual gifts that are still very relevant for the edification of the saints. But nobody talks about those gifts. And then Paul says that the greatest gift is agape love.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

DJT_47

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2022
1,038
351
83
Michigan/Sterling Heights
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What is written in the NT cannot simply have "peripherical" meaning for Christians in other ages and other times. Spiritual gifts were given to the Church, and the Church has continued ever since Pentecost.

At the same time many seem to forget that "the signs of an apostle" were for the apostolic period and exercised by the apostles and their companions. The signs, wonders, and miracles performed by the apostles are no longer performed . We also need to see that tongues were also a sign gift for unbelieving Jews and Paul clearly states that. So after Paul turned away from the Jews and focused on the Gentiles, would tongues even be relevant? (Modern tongues are not biblical tongues.)

Today the prayer of faith brings about miracles of healing. But there are many other spiritual gifts that are still very relevant for the edification of the saints. But nobody talks about those gifts. And then Paul says that the greatest gift is agape love.
To your last point first. Prayer is NOT one of the miraculous gifts or manifestations of the Spirit. The miraculous spiritual gifts are listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10, and prayer isn't one of them. We don't need the gifts listed therein to edify the modern church of the present day. We have the complete word of God, the bible, and no longer need something to fill that void that the early church had which necessitated the gifts of the Spirit.
 

DJT_47

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2022
1,038
351
83
Michigan/Sterling Heights
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thanks for your reply.
I'm familiar with this common argument.
Consider this...

You are dismissing two chapters of the Apostle's instructions about spiritual manifestations (gifts)
based on the misunderstand of one verse in the chapter between them.

Are you claiming that the New Testament is the perfection that was to come?
That the canon that the RCC gave us (one of three) is a closed book?
Be specific about dismissing 2 chapters. I'm not dismissing anything.

And to your last question, the bible, which is the complete word of God with warnings contained therein agsinst adding to or taking away from, has definitely ended the need for miraculous spiritual gifts which filled the void and need of the early church, to strengthen, grow, and edify it via the gifts as listed in1 Cor 12:8-10.

But to the point of the Corinthians, the letters written thereto were to address the issues they had, such as division within the body of Christ at that local congregational level and at that point in time. And in that context, the gifts, or more appropriately termed, the manifestation of the Spirit, severally served the purpose, or was intended to, of what the bible does for us today, representing individual parts of the body that functioned together to form and complete the body of Christ in that location. To accomplish the perfection of the body was one of the purposes of the gifts as well as to grow the church such as via the use of tongues which was for a sign to unbelievers, not to the church.

We today, misinterpret these scriptures and assume they were written to us and relate to the worldwide body of Christ as may exist as a whole, and erroneously assume "that which is perfect" means Jesus or his 2nd coming: Jesus is not a "that" nor is his 2nd coming, the Great day of the Lord, which wouldn't be referred to as "that" either.

The power from on high as referenced in Luke 24:49 by Jesus to his apostles, gave them the ability to enable the manifestation of the Spirit, the gifts as they are commonly referred to today, which they solely did as noted in such passages as Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6-8, Acts 8:9-17, Acts 19:6.

Hope this helps to clarify for you by scripture.
 
Last edited:

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,437
2,214
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have explained this previously, the events which occurred in in Acts 2 and similarly in Acts 10. In both instances, the only 2 times recorded in the bible, the Holy Spirit fell miraculously on individuals unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands.

In Acts 2, it fell on the apostles/disciples as a sign to the unbelieving Jews who afterwards believed and ultimately were converted. Per Acts 2:38, subsequent to believing, they were told to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. They then received the gift of the Holy Ghost and were added to the church (Acts 2:47).

In Acts 10, the Holy Spirit fell again unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands, but on the Gentiles, also as a sign and validation that the Gentiles could be brought into the body of Christ.

In both instances, the church was started, 1st in Jerusalem amongst the Jews, and then in Caesarea with the Gentiles.

Two unique instances and for a unique purpose: to start the church. No other instances were recorded wherein the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit happened to baptized believers without the laying on of the apostle's hands as noted by the scriptures cited in my OP.
Two unique instances and for a unique purpose: to start the church. No other instances were recorded wherein the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit happened to baptized believers without the laying on of the apostle's hands as noted by the scriptures cited in my OP.

Not only the start of the Church, but the start of our Covenant that remains intact throughout. Your ignorance of covenant law is very willful. You want to hold your position at all costs, even to your own soul.
They then spoke in earthly tongues as a sign to the unbelieving Jews who were afterwards converted.

They SPOKE in tongues, and there is only one way for the devout Jews to understand them - supernaturally

1 Corinthians 14:2 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

1 Corinthians 12:10b to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
Consider this supplemental also. Sorry for the confusion, but this should address your question on limitations to apostle's hands.

Start with John the Baptist's comments in Luke 3:16 regarding baptism with the Holy Ghost and then the Luke 24:49 comment made by Jesus to his apostles telling them to tarry in Jerusalem until they received power from on high. As previously stated, this did occur as recorded in Acts 2 wherein the apostles were given that power and the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of cloven tongues of fire. They then spoke in earthly tongues as a sign to the unbelieving Jews who were afterwards converted. The apostles only had the power from on high with which they performed miracles etc., those miraculous gifts of the Spirit that they only could pass on by the laying on of their hands as stated in Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6, Acts 6:8 with Stephen doing miraculous things after the laying on of the apostle's hands ad noted in Acts 6:6, Acts 8:17-18, Acts 19:6. Plenty of examples of the power given to the apostles and evidence that they only had the power by which they were able to manifest through the laying on of their hands. They are dead as well as all that they laid their hands on. The miraculous manifestation of those gifts of the Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 have ceased as noted they would in 1 Cor 13:8.

This was the beginning of the New Covenant. The New Testament is full of examples of what to expect, first the sinlessness of Jesus and the miraculous; and the same supernatural experience of both for the apostles. But we are to go on from their examples in the power of the Holy Spirit also.

It has happened to many, and our experiences cannot be annulled by your lack of understanding, only for you. We can't convince you, only the Spirit can. But if you don't have an ounce of belief in you in the power of Jesus, it could be you've never repented. Acts 2:38-39. Don't you know you must be born again? What does that even mean to you?
 

DJT_47

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2022
1,038
351
83
Michigan/Sterling Heights
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not only the start of the Church, but the start of our Covenant that remains intact throughout. Your ignorance of covenant law is very willful. You want to hold your position at all costs, even to your own soul.


They SPOKE in tongues, and there is only one way for the devout Jews to understand them - supernaturally

1 Corinthians 14:2 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

1 Corinthians 12:10b to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.


This was the beginning of the New Covenant. The New Testament is full of examples of what to expect, first the sinlessness of Jesus and the miraculous; and the same supernatural experience of both for the apostles. But we are to go on from their examples in the power of the Holy Spirit also.

It has happened to many, and our experiences cannot be annulled by your lack of understanding, only for you. We can't convince you, only the Spirit can. But if you don't have an ounce of belief in you in the power of Jesus, it could be you've never repented. Acts 2:38-39. Don't you know you must be born again? What does that even mean to you?
I have no idea what your point is by this. I totally adhere to Acts 2:38 and ad a result have been born again.

And to your other comments, if it had happened to many, why are there sick people in hospitals? Why aren't the "many" exercising the gifts by healing and performing miracles as did those in NT times? Instead, they're babbling a bunch of incoherent gibberish and telling every they have the miraculous gifts of the spirit, which they don't because they've ceased with the death of the apostles. Believe whatever nonsense you like. I'll waste no more time with you. Goodbye
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
9,276
4,104
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Be specific about dismissing 2 chapters. I'm not dismissing anything.
It begins with this.
Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. - 1 Corinthians 12:1 NIV

And ends with this.
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. - 1 Corinthians 14:39-40

Did you cut those two chapters out of your Bible?
You appear to be misinformed about spiritual gifts and forbid speaking in tongues.