Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them

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DJT_47

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It's about ministering to each other in the ability provided by the Holy Spirit.

Something I've come to understand, the Christian Life is about communion in love. Which is to say, I commune with you and with God and with all our other brothers and sisters. Communion isn't just about being together, its participating together.

The communion of giving is that we join together to give to another. The communion of suffering is that as we suffer, we share the experience of others.

The communion of giving, isn't just that you and I join together to give. We likewise join with God, and He and you and I jointly give a gift. He gives us the gift of giving, and we give a gift of money, or things.

The communion of suffering is that we are bonded together by a common endurance, but we are also bonded with Christ, Who gave us the example of obedience in suffering.

And likewise the ways we serve each other are joined with God in the gifts of the Spirit. And while in some cases, hands were laid to impart gifts, but not in all cases, and we shouldn't make that a rule. That's not what the Bible teaches, rather, as God, or as the Holy Spirit wills (depending on how you read that verse).

Much love!
Lots of fluffy words and thoughts of yours that sound nice but no scriptural foundation
 

Tommy Cool

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Please regard this ad supplemental to my initial response to which was rushed due to time constraints this A.M.
Regardless what you call them be it gifts or manifestations of the spirit, they have all ceased long ago and will not be present until the Lord returns. 1 Cor 13:8-10 still is applicable which has nothing to do with the Lord's return.
Does that mean that interpretation of tongues, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits, miracles, and healings …are all still in effect? Since they are not mentioned.

Also IF knowledge is vanquished …. ~Gone~… you wouldn’t know…. because to know something you must have knowledge… but without knowledge you know nothing.



Additionally


1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Are there still people who believe not?????

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Co 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.



How can you delegate what is peripheral and If 1 Corinthians is not written to us… how can you use the verse of scripture from 1Cor 13:10 other than the fact that you delegate what is necessary to sustain your irrational arguments.

I have no problems with those who do not believe in the manifestation of the spirit … It’s a free will choice to accept or reject the Word.

Your flaw comes from trying to write about something you know nothing about….which, normally I could dialog with ….. but I cannot dialog with someone who in essence picks and chooses what is applicable to him based on what you want to believe… that renders no foundation for truth….I won’t play the peripheral game.
 

DJT_47

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Does that mean that interpretation of tongues, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits, miracles, and healings …are all still in effect? Since they are not mentioned.

Also IF knowledge is vanquished …. ~Gone~… you wouldn’t know…. because to know something you must have knowledge… but without knowledge you know nothing.



Additionally


1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Are there still people who believe not?????

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Co 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.



How can you delegate what is peripheral and If 1 Corinthians is not written to us… how can you use the verse of scripture from 1Cor 13:10 other than the fact that you delegate what is necessary to sustain your irrational arguments.

I have no problems with those who do not believe in the manifestation of the spirit … It’s a free will choice to accept or reject the Word.

Your flaw comes from trying to write about something you know nothing about….which, normally I could dialog with ….. but I cannot dialog with someone who in essence picks and chooses what is applicable to him based on what you want to believe… that renders no foundation for truth….I won’t play the peripheral game.
Here are my comments from above written on response to another member which apply to you as well.

I thought I laid it out concisely in my OP. But in a nutshell, the gifts, or enabling of the spirit to manifest itself in certain individuals, was done by the laying on of the apostle's hands, as promised to them by Christ as the power from on high in Luke 24:47. They are dead, so by virtue of their death, the miraculous gifts or manifestations of the Spirit have ceased. Plus, the gifts served a purpose then as they had no written word as we do which is the complete word of God. And if it's the complete word, why do we need more words of wisdom, or knowledge, or prophesy, or tongues, etc.? Plus there are sufficient warnings in both the OT and NT about tampering with the word of God by adding to or taking away from it. And who's truly performing miracles, or healing people, etc? If someone were able to do these things there would be no sickness or hospitals full of people, and for sure, no Christians would be ill.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Here are my comments from above written on response to another member which apply to you as well.


I thought I laid it out concisely in my OP. But in a nutshell, the gifts, or enabling of the spirit to manifest itself in certain individuals, was done by the laying on of the apostle's hands, as promised to them by Christ as the power from on high in Luke 24:47. They are dead, so by virtue of their death, the miraculous gifts or manifestations of the Spirit have ceased. Plus, the gifts served a purpose then as they had no written word as we do which is the complete word of God. And if it's the complete word, why do we need more words of wisdom, or knowledge, or prophesy, or tongues, etc.? Plus there are sufficient warnings in both the OT and NT about tampering with the word of God by adding to or taking away from it. And who's truly performing miracles, or healing people, etc? If someone were able to do these things there would be no sickness or hospitals full of people, and for sure, no Christians would be ill.

The apostles did not lay hands on the 120 on the Day of Pentecost. You have tunnel vision, and have God in a tiny box.
You must believe that about the receiving of the Holy Spirit too, without which we cannot be born again and saved. Romans 8:9
 

1stCenturyLady

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The apostles did not lay hands on the 120 on the Day of Pentecost. You have tunnel vision, and have God in a tiny box. You must believe that about the receiving of the Holy Spirit too, without which we cannot be born again and saved. Romans 8:9
 

marks

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And if it's the complete word, why do we need more words of wisdom, or knowledge, or prophesy, or tongues, etc.?
Gifts of leading, teaching, adminstration, helps, encouraging, various ways we minister to each other, in the gifting and power of the Holy Spirit. The Bible didn't tell my friend where her missing keys were, but a word of knowledge did.

Christianity is about all of our life, not just some particular aspect. God is a very real help in times of need, and those needs extend beyond memorizing a Bible verse that God cares about us, it extends to God actually caring for our needs, and often times through another brother or sister in Christ.

Much love!
 
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DJT_47

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The apostles did not lay hands on the 120 on the Day of Pentecost. You have tunnel vision, and have God in a tiny box.
You must believe that about the receiving of the Holy Spirit too, without which we cannot be born again and saved. Romans 8:9
I have explained this previously, the events which occurred in in Acts 2 and similarly in Acts 10. In both instances, the only 2 times recorded in the bible, the Holy Spirit fell miraculously on individuals unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands.

In Acts 2, it fell on the apostles/disciples as a sign to the unbelieving Jews who afterwards believed and ultimately were converted. Per Acts 2:38, subsequent to believing, they were told to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. They then received the gift of the Holy Ghost and were added to the church (Acts 2:47).

In Acts 10, the Holy Spirit fell again unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands, but on the Gentiles, also as a sign and validation that the Gentiles could be brought into the body of Christ.

In both instances, the church was started, 1st in Jerusalem amongst the Jews, and then in Caesarea with the Gentiles.

Two unique instances and for a unique purpose: to start the church. No other instances were recorded wherein the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit happened to baptized believers without the laying on of the apostle's hands as noted by the scriptures cited in my OP.
 

marks

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No other instances were recorded wherein the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit happened to baptized believers without the laying on of the apostle's hands as noted by the scriptures cited in my OP.
It's an argument from silence.

The Spirit was given to some by the laying on of hands, but then anyone who comes to faith in Jesus being born again receives the Holy Spirit, with or without laying on of hands. Do you wish to see the Scriptures that show this? Or are you already familiar with this teaching from the Bible, that all who are Christ's have received His Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:7 KJV
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

This verse itself has not been qualified, abrogated, or otherwise modified by any other passage.

Much love!
 

DJT_47

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It's an argument from silence.

The Spirit was given to some by the laying on of hands, but then anyone who comes to faith in Jesus being born again receives the Holy Spirit, with or without laying on of hands. Do you wish to see the Scriptures that show this? Or are you already familiar with this teaching from the Bible, that all who are Christ's have received His Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:7 KJV
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

This verse itself has not been qualified, abrogated, or otherwise modified by any other passage.

Much love!
That's the kjv which I happen to like and read from, but look at the origional Greek in the interlinear which says to each, not every man.

Also, there are examples in the bible wherein baptized believers did not automatically have the gifts of the Spirit. Also, 1 Cor 12:28 says "God hath set SOME in the church", and Paul said in 1 Cor 14:12, acknowledges they were "zealous of spiritual gifts", inferring they didn't already have them, but were desirous of them. And in Acts 8:14-17, Peter and John prayed that those in Samaria receive the Holy Ghost because it had not yet fallen on them, and THEN, they laid their hands on them to receive it.
 

marks

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That's the kjv which I happen to like and read from, but look at the origional Greek in the interlinear which says to each, not every man.
Yes, that's good to bring out, because spiritual gifts aren't given to the unregenerate. So yes, to each.

And just the same, that verse has not been abrogated or qualifed or modified.

1 Corinthians 12:4-14 KJV
4) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5) And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14) For the body is not one member, but many.

Where is the limitation which you express, that the gifts are only given through the laying on of hands, and only by these specific men?

1 Timothy 4:14 KJV
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Here, it's by the laying on of hands by the elders.

Hebrews 2:3-4 KJV
3) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4) God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

I think that in the place, God reserves the right to give His gifts according to His Own will.

Much love!
 

DJT_47

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It's an argument from silence.

The Spirit was given to some by the laying on of hands, but then anyone who comes to faith in Jesus being born again receives the Holy Spirit, with or without laying on of hands. Do you wish to see the Scriptures that show this? Or are you already familiar with this teaching from the Bible, that all who are Christ's have received His Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:7 KJV
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

This verse itself has not been qualified, abrogated, or otherwise modified by any other passage.

Much love!
This is supplemental to my recent response go you. You are not understanding the difference in receiving the gift (singular) of the Holy Ghost/Spirit as per Acts 2:38, which all baptized believers receive pursuant thereto, and the various miraculous gifts (plural) or manifestations of the Spirit as listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10. One is the Spirit itself, the other is the miraculous gifts manifested by it. See my other sister post on this subject.
 
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marks

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and Paul said in 1 Cor 14:12, acknowledges they were "zealous of spiritual gifts", inferring they didn't already have them, but were desirous of them.
1 Corinthians 14:12 KJV
12) Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

I don't see that. They were zealous of spiritual gifts, Paul was refocusing them on edifying the church, the reason for the gifts.

Much love!
 

marks

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You are not understanding the difference
Did you have a question for me? We don't really know each other, and I'd caution you against presuming things like this that you don't really know.

Much love!
 

marks

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wbi h all baptized believers receive pursuant thereto,
. . . By way of example . . . You could make the same argument that you can only receive the Holy Spirit with the laying on of hands, since we have accounts of that.

Much love!
 

DJT_47

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Yes, that's good to bring out, because spiritual gifts aren't given to the unregenerate. So yes, to each.

And just the same, that verse has not been abrogated or qualifed or modified.

1 Corinthians 12:4-14 KJV
4) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5) And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14) For the body is not one member, but many.

Where is the limitation which you express, that the gifts are only given through the laying on of hands, and only by these specific men?

1 Timothy 4:14 KJV
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Here, it's by the laying on of hands by the elders.

Hebrews 2:3-4 KJV
3) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4) God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

I think that in the place, God reserves the right to give His gifts according to His Own will.

Much love!
See my original post wherein it cites the specific scriptures which clearly indicate the miraculous manifestation of gifts were through the apostles hands.
 

DJT_47

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Yes, that's good to bring out, because spiritual gifts aren't given to the unregenerate. So yes, to each.

And just the same, that verse has not been abrogated or qualifed or modified.

1 Corinthians 12:4-14 KJV
4) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5) And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14) For the body is not one member, but many.

Where is the limitation which you express, that the gifts are only given through the laying on of hands, and only by these specific men?

1 Timothy 4:14 KJV
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Here, it's by the laying on of hands by the elders.

Hebrews 2:3-4 KJV
3) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4) God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

I think that in the place, God reserves the right to give His gifts according to His Own will.

Much love!
Click to expand...
Consider this supplemental also. Sorry for the confusion, but this should address your question on limitations to apostle's hands.

Start with John the Baptist's comments in Luke 3:16 regarding baptism with the Holy Ghost and then the Luke 24:49 comment made by Jesus to his apostles telling them to tarry in Jerusalem until they received power from on high. As previously stated, this did occur as recorded in Acts 2 wherein the apostles were given that power and the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of cloven tongues of fire. They then spoke in earthly tongues as a sign to the unbelieving Jews who were afterwards converted. The apostles only had the power from on high with which they performed miracles etc., those miraculous gifts of the Spirit that they only could pass on by the laying on of their hands as stated in Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6, Acts 6:8 with Stephen doing miraculous things after the laying on of the apostle's hands ad noted in Acts 6:6, Acts 8:17-18, Acts 19:6. Plenty of examples of the power given to the apostles and evidence that they only had the power by which they were able to manifest through the laying on of their hands. They are dead as well as all that they laid their hands on. The miraculous manifestation of those gifts of the Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 have ceased as noted they would in 1 Cor 13:8.
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marks

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See my original post wherein it cites the specific scriptures which clearly indicate the miraculous manifestation of gifts were through the apostles hands.
You've posted some references, and you've posted some passages, but I'm not seeing where you've posted Scripture that the spiritual gifts were only through laying on of the apostles' hands, could you be more specific? Maybe post the text of a passage which ways this? Bold the specific words that say so?

Much love!
 

marks

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Looks like my complete response didn't get posted but only the beginning
Does that me you are not telling me I don't understand the difference between the Holy Spirit, and His gifts?

Much love!