Spoken Word and Written Word are the Same

[dragonfly]

Just as a husband and wife are one, so is Christ and His Church one.

Selene, you have it the wrong way round. Paul phrased his comparison like this:

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

From start to finish, Christ's attitude to the Church, is the pattern for a husband's attitude to his wife.

 

[Axehead]

mjrhealth, If someone that never was influenced by bias sola Scriptura advocates were to read such passages as Matt.16:15-19 , they would overwhelmingly read and understand it as Peter being commissioned by Jesus.

I came to faith in Jesus Christ in the Phillipines, not in a church or christian conference. I then had to go back onto a ship with 5,500 men not knowing any Christians. I would read the Bible voraciously each day after my shift (I had night shift). The more I read the Scriptures, the more my mind was being renewed and I was being delivered from past "teachings". I was raised in a very religious Catholic home, both parents Jesuit trained from grammar school through University. When I first came to Matthew 16, with the Holy Spirit (laying in my bunk), a "light bulb" came on and I knew exactly what it meant and it had nothing to do with the Pope or Peter being the first Pope. It had everything to do with what must happen to every person that comes to faith in Jesus Christ. They must receive the revelation from the Holy Spirit just as Peter did that Jesus "is the Christ, the Son of the Living God". As I continued to read God's Word, the Spirit of God continued to deliver me from the lies that I had been taught by unsuspecting and innocent people.

John_8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[Selene]

Selene, you have it the wrong way round. Paul phrased his comparison like this:

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

From start to finish, Christ's attitude to the Church, is the pattern for a husband's attitude to his wife.

The Holy Bible does say that husband and wife are ONE, and that is what I was referring to. God's Church is also one with Christ, who is Her Head.

Genesis 2:23-24 And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Selene,

I was not disputing that a man and woman are one flesh with the man as the head of the woman. I was disputing that Christ and the Church are like a marriage.

The order in the Bible is, that a marriage is like Christ and the Church. Christ existed long before Adam and Eve. Remember?

 

[aspen]

Aspen, I respect you for that statement. It is very true. Why, I ask are characters like Neo and Kepha "stirring the hive" and then claiming persecution?

I think we can all act badly when we become possessive over the Truth. God's Truth is not possessed by anyone or any institution - Christ pointed this out with His criticism of the Pharisees - they were dead right when it came to God's Truth because they were so concerned about possessing it, they forgot how to respond to it. Love in response to God's Truth and love for us is the only point we need to be concerned about, and we do not have to claim exclusive ownership (always a prideful response) in order to respond to each with love. Jesus rightfully told His disciples that they would face persecution because of their love response, NOT because of their attempts at ownership of the Truth that was revealed to them. This is the reason why the martyrs were killed and why it was so important for them to die for their beliefs - love was also the reason Christ died for us.

The persecution complex is really all about pride - "I own the truth! Stop hurting me because I own the truth!". How ironic that the true martyrs of the early church had no trace of a persecution complex - instead, they were truly set free by the love of God - no defense was necessary.

 

[Selene]

Hi Selene,

I was not disputing that a man and woman are one flesh with the man as the head of the woman. I was disputing that Christ and the Church are like a marriage.

The order in the Bible is, that a marriage is like Christ and the Church. Christ existed long before Adam and Eve. Remember?

Revelations shows that Christ and His Church is a marriage. In the beginning of the Bible (Genesis), we have the marriage of Adam and Eve. This marriage points to an even greater marriage at the end of the Bible (Revelations)....the marriage between Christ and His Church. Marriage is sacred and was defined by God.

Revelations 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The Lamb is Christ, and His wife is the Church.

 

[mjrhealth]

Quiet agree Selene, His called out ones ,the ones that belong to Him, the ones that made themsleves ready, His bride.

In All His Love

Revelations shows that Christ and His Church is a marriage. In the beginning of the Bible (Genesis), we have the marriage of Adam and Eve. This marriage points to an even greater marriage at the end of the Bible (Revelations)....the marriage between Christ and His Church. Marriage is sacred and was defined by God.

Revelations 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The Lamb is Christ, and His wife is the Church.

I did miss one thing, Adam and Eve where never married, not in the scriptures anywhere.

 

[Selene]

Quiet agree Selene, His called out ones ,the ones that belong to Him, the ones that made themsleves ready, His bride.

In All His Love




I did miss one thing, Adam and Eve where never married, not in the scriptures anywhere.

Adam and Eve were married.

Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

 

[mjrhealth]

And who married them ??

 

[bosco]

I presume God. Jesus certainly seems to cite them as married in Mark 10:5-9.

 

[mjrhealth]

Our understanding and Gods of understanig of marriage are quiet different, Jesus gives us a little insite,

Joh 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
Joh 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

as does this little bit,

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

It does not take a wedding ceremony to become married it takes an act of Love and devotion.

In all His Love

 

[Selene]

Our understanding and Gods of understanig of marriage are quiet different, Jesus gives us a little insite,

Joh 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
Joh 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

as does this little bit,

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

It does not take a wedding ceremony to become married it takes an act of Love and devotion.

In all His Love

It was God who married Adam and Eve, and today, it is God who performs the wedding ceremony through the priest. As Christ said, "What God has joined, no man should separate." (Matthew 19:6 and Mark 10:9). Today, God uses people as His instruments to carry out His will.

 

[Graceismine]

Thank you Axehead for bringing this to my attention I have just finished reading it.

Scripture itself is not completely sufficient for understanding the Christian faith in its fullness because it does not contain all of God’s revelation.If every word of God’s revelation is important and must be considered, but not all of it is included in the Bible’s written word, where can it be found? John tells us, "there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25).
So, how can one refute a verse or passage if the person is not interpreting it in it's proper context if the Bible itself is insufficient in doing so? If every word of God’s revelation is important and must be considered, but not all of it is included in the Bible’s written word, where can it be found? Quite simply, it is found with those whom God entrusted the fullness of his revelation—the authoritative hierarchy of his Church—with whom has been entrusted "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3).
Ultimately, if we cannot adequately treat a proof text using Scripture itself, we must trust in the teaching of the Church. [ Matt.18:15-18 ] Jesus would be amazed at anybody who would not listen to the Church as noted in the preceding verse...... " If he refuses to listen even to the Church..... implying that for someone to ignore 'His Church' [ the only One based on His apostles; Luke 10:16, Eph.2:19-20 ] would be simply stupid and foolish. Again , Jesus left us His Teaching Aposolic Church to make sure that His Teaching would be understood and applied correctly, if this method is not followed we get the confusion of so many different holy spirits influencing the many thousands of different conlicting churches and cults as invented by many of the mis-lead men and women we find today and unfortunately still being invented. [ 1 Tim. 3:14 ]

I would have to take issue with your statement that , "Scripture itself is not completely sufficient for understanding the Christian faith in its fullness because it does not contain all of God’s revelation"

Within the church we have been given Pastors, Teachers, Evangelists and whatever else. None of these receive revelation apart from the Scriptures. If they do they are highly suspect and probably leading whoever is sitting under them into heresy. These leaders are expected to receive inspiration, concerning what the Scriptures say from the Holy Spirit. Any born again person walking with God may receive the same inspiration and we can even see this through some postings on this board.

As far as the hierarchy of the church telling us what to believe, I praise God that Martin Luther ignored them.

Don't get me wrong, God did place men & women within the church to teach, lead and guide but if their teaching does not line up with Scripture we need to run from it, there is no revelation apart from it.

 

[bosco]

Here's the problem with that, graceismine-- how do we know what books should be in the Bible? If the Bible does not list them, and there is no revelation given outside of the Bible, how do we know we have the right list?

 

[Graceismine]

Here's the problem with that, graceismine-- how do we know what books should be in the Bible? If the Bible does not list them, and there is no revelation given outside of the Bible, how do we know we have the right list?

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.


We know we have the right list because the Bible has stood the test of time in spite of the fiddling that is constantly being done with different translations.

Here's a link for you http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html

 

[bosco]

That link says that God spoke authoritatively through human beings outside of the Bible to impart revelation, doesn't it? That the inspiration of the books belonging to the canon of scripture was made known to them by God, and not through the Scriptures? That seems to confirm the idea that God's revelation is not limited to Scripture alone, it seems to me.

 

[mjrhealth]

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Gal_4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

What more do christians need, do they prefer the wisdom of men to the Spirit, of God, so many things that God has to show us and so few who care to listen.

In All His Love

 

[bosco]

I agree wholly with all that you just said, mrjhealth; what this thread is questioning is the form that His revelation to us takes. If He speaks through men-- as He did in Scripture-- then we are listening to the words of God in human language. The process of the canon formation shows that He does indeed speak through men in an authoritative way apart from Scripture, at least some of the time (certainly not all the time!). If we accept the canon as decided, then we have to say that this was not simply 'the wisdom of men' but God speaking authoritatively through them, and outside of Scripture.

 

[Selene]

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.


We know we have the right list because the Bible has stood the test of time in spite of the fiddling that is constantly being done with different translations.

Here's a link for you http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html

The biblical scripture you quoted simply says that all scripture is inspired by God, but it never told you which scripture was inspired by God. God always uses people as His instrument to carry out His will. It was men inspired under the Holy Spirit who wrote scripture, and it was men inspired under the Holy Spirit who CHOSE AND CANONIZED the Bible. The Bible was canonized by the end of the 4th century at the Council of Carthage.

 

[mjrhealth]

God always uses people as His instrument to carry out His will.

the enemy does too, take a look at the world around you, few can discern teh difference, religion is his greatest deception??

In all His Love