Stop Believing the "Any Moment" Myth

[CrowCross]

To meet Christ in the air. Hello? Where else?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yes, gathered in the air at the pre-trib rapture..then taken where?

 

[CrowCross]

It's not talking about taken them off of the earth to avoid the hour of tempation. That would contradict what Jesus prayed about here....

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Revelation 3:10 is talking about being protected from temptation and evil while still on the earth, not about being taken off of the earth.

....That's not what John 17:15 is talking about.

 

[CrowCross]

Absolutely false. A vast majority of post-tribbers do not believe that. Educate yourself instead of lumping all post-tribs together just based on the opinions of a couple ignorant fools.

What is the "requirement" for salvation? Care to tell us?

 

[CrowCross]

Revelation 3:10-12 (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

All these promises in Rev. 3:10-12 are made to the faithful Christians all over the world who endure to the very end, who will never bend a knee to the Antichrist when he appears.

Once the christians are raptured...delivered from the wrath of the tribulation... the entire planet will be full of non-christians. But for a little while as some who were not raptured will get saved. It is those christians who will endure to the end....in fact many will lose their life prior to the mark.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, gathered in the air at the pre-trib rapture..then taken where?

There is no pre-trib rapture. What will happen at that time when the rapture occurs at Christ's coming "after the tribulation of those days" is that Jesus will destroy all unbelievers just as happened with the flood in Noah's day (Matthew 24:29-39). Paul taught the same thing (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10). After that the judgment will occur, according to Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

....That's not what John 17:15 is talking about.

Yes, it is. The wording is very similar. What do you think John 17:15 is about? Clearly, Jesus is talking there about being kept from (tereo ek) evil in the sense of being protected from it while still on the earth. How is that any different from the context of Revelation 3:10 that talks about being kept from (tereo ek) the hour of temptation?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is the "requirement" for salvation? Care to tell us?

Do you not know?

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Once the christians are raptured...delivered from the wrath of the tribulation... the entire planet will be full of non-christians.

No, that is not the case. What are you basing that on? Have you ever read Luke 17:26-37? Do you believe that when Jesus talked about one being taken and one left that it relates to when the rapture occurs? If so, read this...

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Let's start at the beginning to see what Jesus taught in this passage. First, in verses 26 and 27, He talks about the days leading up to His second coming being similar to the days of Noah that preceded the flood. Then He points out that "the flood came and destroyed them all". All who were left behind outside the ark were destroyed, in other words. Then He points out similar things about the days of Lot in comparison to the days leading up to the second coming of Christ and He again points out that all unbelievers who were not taken out from Sodom like Lot and his family were left behind in the city and were destroyed by fire.

Then Jesus points out that no one should try to save their possessions because it will be too late for anyone to do that and anyone doing that is too attached to the world and their life in this world instead of being focused on eternity and being with Jesus like they should be. Lot's wife is given as an example of how we can't be too attached to this world and our lives in this world. That is unacceptable to God for us to love our lives in this world more than we love Him. Lot's wife paid the price for loving the world and her life in this world more than God and that's a warning for everyone.

Then Jesus, using Lot's wife as an example, said that those who want to keep their life, like Lot's wife did, will lose it (will be killed) and whoever loses their life (is willing to give up their lives for God) will preserve it (will be spared and not killed).

Then we get to verse 34 where Jesus gives examples of two people being together with one being taken and one left. Those verses, in and of themselves, tell us nothing about what happens to those taken and to those left, but we can figure that out from the previous verses that speak of events where some were taken away and escaped God's wrath and some were left behind and did not escape His wrath, like in Noah and Lot's days. From those events, regardless of what it means to be taken and what it means to be left (there is some disagreement about that), we know that it means all people either survive Christ's second coming or they are killed. The ones who are left behind on the earth do not survive to face tribulation as pre-tribs believe. They are killed just as those left behind out of the ark were killed and those left behind in Sodom were killed.

Some people think the question the disciples asked at that point ("Where, Lord?") is related to where those who are taken are taken to, but I disagree with that. I think they are just asking where it will take place that one is taken and one is left and Jesus is saying it will happen wherever a dead body is found. Since His second coming is a global event, His answer to the question is basically "everywhere" since unbelievers all over the world will suffer His wrath and vengeance when He comes (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

So, this passage is a problem for pre-tribs like you who think those left behind survive to live another day and then have to face "the tribulation". No, they do not. They will be killed, according to Jesus Himself.

 

[marks]

Revelation 3:10-12 (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

All these promises in Rev. 3:10-12 are made to the faithful Christians all over the world who endure to the very end, who will never bend a knee to the Antichrist when he appears.

Actually this verse says to whomever it speaks that they will be kept out of the hour of testing.

So here is my question to you. What is the one and only way someone can be "kept out of the hour" of something? It's saying these won't be here during that time. OK, I've answered for you.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually this verse says to whomever it speaks that they will be kept out of the hour of testing.

So here is my question to you. What is the one and only way someone can be "kept out of the hour" of something? It's saying these won't be here during that time. OK, I've answered for you.

That's not the only way. The Greek phrase "tereo ek" is translated as "kept out" or "kept from" in Revelation 3:10. The same phrase is used in the following verse...

John 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

In this verse the phrase "tereo ek" (keep...from) means to be protected from something while still in the world (on the earth). It doesn't require anyone to be taken out of the world (off of the earth). No one needs to be taken off of the earth in order to be kept from the hour of temptation. The only point at which we would need to be taken off of the earth is just before this happens...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

 

[JimKnox]

Apologies, sometimes the back and forth gets out of hand.

Forgiven.

 

[marks]

That's not the only way. The Greek phrase "tereo ek" is translated as "kept out" or "kept from" in Revelation 3:10. The same phrase is used in the following verse...

John 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

In this verse the phrase "tereo ek" (keep...from) means to be protected from something while still in the world (on the earth). It doesn't require anyone to be taken out of the world (off of the earth). No one needs to be taken off of the earth in order to be kept from the hour of temptation. The only point at which we would need to be taken off of the earth is just before this happens...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

You have the same problem . . . Keep from the hour of testing.

There is only one way. It's not saying you will be protected during the time of testing, it's saying you won't be there, which ever way you look at the preposition.

Meanwhile, it may be an eye opener for you to look at every place John used "ek" and "apo". He routinely interchanged them. As an example, where Luke wrote correctly quoting Jesus, "and if I be lifted up away from the earth" (apo), John wrote "if I be lifted up out of the earth" (ek). There are numerous examples

Even so, either way, the effect in this passage is the same.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have the same problem . . . Keep from the hour of testing.

There is only one way. It's not saying you will be protected during the time of testing, it's saying you won't be there, which ever way you look at the preposition.

No, it is not saying that. You're not addressing my point. I showed where the very same phrase is used in John 17:15 in relation to being protected from evil while on the earth rather than having to be taken off of the earth to avoid it. Why won't you address that?

Meanwhile, it may be an eye opener for you to look at every place John used "ek" and "apo". He routinely interchanged them. As an example, where Luke wrote correctly quoting Jesus, "and if I be lifted up away from the earth" (apo), John wrote "if I be lifted up out of the earth" (ek). There are numerous examples

You are ignoring my point. The phrase "tereo ek" is only used in two verses in the Bible. Revelation 3:10 is one and John 17:15 is the other. In John 17:15, the phrase is used in the context of being protected from evil while on the earth, so why can't it have the same context in Revelation 3:10? There's no reason why not.

 

[marks]

No, it is not saying that. You're not addressing my point. I showed where the very same phrase is used in John 17:15 in relation to being protected from evil while on the earth rather than having to be taken off of the earth to avoid it. Why won't you address that?


You are ignoring my point. The phrase "tereo ek" is only used in two verses in the Bible. Revelation 3:10 is one and John 17:15 is the other. In John 17:15, the phrase is used in the context of being protected from evil while on the earth, so why can't it have the same context in Revelation 3:10? There's no reason why not.

Different contexts.

Kept from the evil (or evil one) is different from being kept from a time.

Jesus specifically prayed that the disciples not be removed from the earth, but rather they would be kept from evil/the evil one. Meanwhile, Jesus, in the Revelation, promised they would be kept out of the time of testing, no other qualifiers, so we should accept it as written.

You are suggesting overturning the clear saying of one verse because of what you read on another verse, just because the same words are used, with no regard to the specific context of each.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, that’s what I was looking for. Thanks.

It's a departure from the faith as apostasia means. It isn't departure from the Earth simply because apostasia cannot mean that. You likely know this but just adding my 2 cents.

 

[ewq1938]

Once the christians are raptured...delivered from the wrath of the tribulation... the entire planet will be full of non-christians. But for a little while as some who were not raptured will get saved. It is those christians who will endure to the end....in fact many will lose their life prior to the mark.

And is there at least one passage that talks about non-Christians converting during the trib?

 

[ewq1938]

I see it this way....the post tribbers see the 2nd coming as a future event. Many of them believe we are somewhere in the tribulation or the 1000 year reign (that really isn't a 1,000 years) or perhaps in Satans little season and waiting for Jesus to return.

Amill post tribbers think we are in the Millennium or satan's lil season.
Premill post tribbers think we are before the trib, some thinking the trib has started.

When the following happens they will think it's Jesus..." 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer." They will say this rider is the same rider mentioned here...Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse!

Did you know many in Amill believe Jesus can return at any moment? It's a similar belief to Pretrib, just Christ coming for two different reasons but the "anyt moment" part is shared.

Post trib thinks both Amill and Pretrib could be fooled by trhe false christ because neither of the doctrines teach to look for or be concerned about the antichrist.

Pretrib thinks they are gone before he arrives and Amill thinks he came in the past. This is what I call different forms of "antichrist denial" and it is VERY dangerous. Only Postrib thinks the AC is still coming and that the church will face him in the end times.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation 3:10-12 (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

All these promises in Rev. 3:10-12 are made to the faithful Christians all over the world who endure to the very end, who will never bend a knee to the Antichrist when he appears.

Re read it.
It says we will be raptured pretrib.
Ahem, "keep you out of...".on a condition.

THEN JESUS JUMPS TO THE NEW JERUSALEM which occurs over 1000 years AFTER the rapture.

You are reading postrib doctrine into a pretrib rapture.
Why?

 

[rebuilder 454]

God promises:

Revelation 3:10-12 (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

I have listened to hours of postrib teachers.
I know that doctrine better than most.
I also know what drives it.

That passage you posted is one of 2 escape verses , BY JESUS.
Do you know the other one?

In fact, can any postribber quote both escape verses?

( cue postribbers scrambling to try and see where they are)

 

[rebuilder 454]

Posttrib believs the Pretrib rapture is not scriptural and could possibly lead people to a false christ using deceptive miracles which could be counterfeit events like a false rapture which could be where the Apostasy comes from that Paul warned about. No coincidence that Pretrib teaches the Apostasy is the Rapture.

If hypothetically someone taught something clearly wrong like going to the LOF was the rapture, wouldn't you say something?

You misrepresent us and scripture.
What a joke.
You misrepresent the bible, then point at us bible hounds as false, with your weak theories.
I can quite handily defend the pretrib rapture.
We destroy your house of cards decisively, with Gods word.
You didn't even know the literal translation of apostacia was "departure " until we schooled you on it.