Studying the Bible without thinking critically

[stunnedbygrace]

The supreme irony is that people routinely will tell me that they can't see what I'm talking about.

You made me chuckle very heartily!

I thought the irony, given your assertions here, was that the thread is titled reading your bible without thinking critically...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I have to get ready to go work with my hands. Thank you guys for the conversation.

 

[shnarkle]

Yes!!! So work that out!!
Be logical.

You're trolling. Please present something that advances the discussion rather than vague and pointless remarks.

If anyone who abides in Him does not sin, and I see I do sin and am not sinless, should I keep insisting that I am abiding in Him??

Of course not. This is precisely my point.

Any man who has received the Holy Spirit knows darn well that he has.

And there are plenty who are deceived as well. They sincerely believe that they have received the Holy Spirit, but we have a witness in the word that contradicts them.

It is completely fine to acknowledge this. It is stupendous joy. But how does a man say then that He is abiding in Him?

If he sins, then there is no truth in him. He is a liar.

If a man would use some logic, he would not claim anything he isn't sure of.

Good point, but then logic doesn't do much good if one doesn't use it. The bible clearly points out that those who sin are liars if they think they abide in Christ or have received the Spirit.

Instead, he would read that if we abide in Him we don't sin, and he would say...oh...then I must not be abiding in Him, because I do still sin...and yet I know I received the Holy Spirit.

No. that is nonsense. The holy Spirit does not abide in sin. The temple was left desolate when Israel continued to sin. They offered sacrifices as a way to continue to sin instead of using the sacrificial system as a means to motivate them to stop sinning. The same holds true today with Christianity. Christians use Christ's sacrifice as a means to continue to sin. That's not how it works. God's presence cannot abide or remain in a temple that continues to be polluted by sin.

Then the man's next thought would be, I need to know what abiding means, because I am obviously not doing it...

Yep

Why this insistence that one is abiding in Him?

Why do you insist on continuing to sin? Do you find anything wrong with abiding in Christ? Perhaps you might want to ask why you don't see the benefit to abiding in Christ.

 

[shnarkle]

I find the declaration by Christians that "we shall continue to sin till we die" so sad... It becomes for them a self fulfilling prophecy... They get precisely what their faith declares.

.. And the corollary to that being that the blood of Christ covers their sin... That even should they murder someone and walk away from Christ, they shall only lose some rewards.

Christ's sacrifice covers sin. It places one into a different legal standing before God, but it is not equivalent to receiving the Spirit. It precedes receiving the Spirit, but it is not the same thing. It is like being an heir. One must eventually take possession of what one inherits. Simply being legal heir does not give one the ability to take possession. It only grants one the legal authority to do so. They have to actually take possession of their inheritance to make it a reality. This is where most Christians simply drop the ball.

I do remember a time when he was being interviewed, and was asked, "what is wrong with the world"?. His answer....I am.

That wasn't Malcolm Muggeridge. That's a story about G.K. Chesterton. It's never been verified. The story is that the newspaper editorial had a question: "What is wrong with the world"? His reply was: "In regards to your question: 'What is wrong with the world today'? I am. G.K. Chesterton"

 

[Nancy]

You're a little mixed up here, I think. What have I not accepted as fact of what God has said?

I have rejected what a man has said - that once I received the Holy Spirit, bang! It was the day I became incapable of any disobedience.

Yeah, Bang- we become as the Stepford Wives, Ha, if only!
It kind of seems that the longer and deeper one is immersed in a sinful life, the harder it is for them to walk steadily and fully in the Spirit. It is not at all for lack of seeking His ways, if their hearts are right with Him. We each have our own Pilgrims Progress to walk and, I cannot say it is instant but, as long as we continue to learn to hate sin as God does, to continue to say no to sin whether it be in thought or deed, we WILL grow further and further away from sin and closer to walking by His Spirit. No flick of a magic wand making it instantaneously but, a gradual shifting from darkness to light.
This is just my own experience.

 

[shnarkle]

Yes, I've heard that whole God's Spirit cannot be in a man who sins and isn't sinless thing.

You've heard it? What do you mean by saying that you've heard it? Are you saying that you've heard it read right from the bible itself? Brakelite has posted numerous passages as have I showing this to be the case.

I don't buy it.

Fair enough. At least you're honest, and up front about it. As Christ says, "let them who have ears, hear..." Those who don't will not no matter how much one yells it at them. It's pointless to talk to the deaf.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You're trolling. Please present something that advances the discussion rather than vague and pointless remarks.



Of course not. This is precisely my point.



And there are plenty who are deceived as well. They sincerely believe that they have received the Holy Spirit, but we have a witness in the word that contradicts them.



If he sins, then there is no truth in him. He is a liar.



Good point, but then logic doesn't do much good if one doesn't use it. The bible clearly points out that those who sin are liars if they think they abide in Christ or have received the Spirit.



No. that is nonsense. The holy Spirit does not abide in sin. The temple was left desolate when Israel continued to sin. They offered sacrifices as a way to continue to sin instead of using the sacrificial system as a means to motivate them to stop sinning. The same holds true today with Christianity. Christians use Christ's sacrifice as a means to continue to sin. That's not how it works. God's presence cannot abide or remain in a temple that continues to be polluted by sin.



Yep



Why do you insist on continuing to sin? Do you find anything wrong with abiding in Christ? Perhaps you might want to ask why you don't see the benefit to abiding in Christ.

Oh I wish I didn't have to go, this could be a good and edifying conversation! I will try to return before this evening if I can!

 

[shnarkle]

You made me chuckle very heartily!

I thought the irony, given your assertions here, was that the thread is titled reading your bible without thinking critically...

Yes, people who are incapable of thinking critically can't see much of anything beyond what they've been inculcated to believe.

 

[shnarkle]

Yeah, Bang- we become as the Stepford Wives, Ha, if only!
It kind of seems that the longer and deeper one is immersed in a sinful life, the harder it is for them to walk steadily and fully in the Spirit. It is not at all for lack of seeking His ways, if their hearts are right with Him. We each have our own Pilgrims Progress to walk and, I cannot say it is instant but, as long as we continue to learn to hate sin as God does, to continue to say no to sin whether it be in thought or deed, we WILL grow further and further away from sin and closer to walking by His Spirit. No flick of a magic wand making it instantaneously but, a gradual shifting from darkness to light.
This is just my own experience.

It's also the experience of most observant Jews. It's the exact same conditions of the Old Covenant. People seem to think that there's something horribly wrong with the Old Covenant. God made that covenant with Israel. So unless you think God is into making seriously bad covenants, there's nothing wrong with the Old Covenant. Paul points out that it could never save us, but he also points out that it points us to salvation. Therein lies the problem for the observant Jew. He sees it as an end in itself, and there is no difference between that perspective and saying saying that we're seeking God's ways. This is exactly what the children of Israel were endeavoring to do.

Paul simply points out that we can try as hard as we want, and we're always going to fail until we let go, and let God do the work instead. This can never happen until one denies themselves completely. As long as one sees that they're separate from God, they will only continue in a works based salvation. Trusting in Christ abolishes that as a possibility. When we see that we have failed, we should immediately see that we have rejected Christ's work in favor of relying upon our own will and effort.

 

[Nancy]

It's also the experience of most observant Jews. It's the exact same conditions of the Old Covenant. People seem to think that there's something horribly wrong with the Old Covenant. God made that covenant with Israel. So unless you think God is into making seriously bad covenants, there's nothing wrong with the Old Covenant. Paul points out that it could never save us, but he also points out that it points us to salvation. Therein lies the problem for the observant Jew. He sees it as an end in itself, and there is no difference between that perspective and saying saying that we're seeking God's ways. This is exactly what the children of Israel were endeavoring to do.

Paul simply points out that we can try as hard as we want, and we're always going to fail until we let go, and let God do the work instead. This can never happen until one denies themselves completely. As long as one sees that they're separate from God, they will only continue in a works based salvation. Trusting in Christ abolishes that as a possibility. When we see that we have failed, we should immediately see that we have rejected Christ's work in favor of relying upon our own will and effort.

Whaaa??
First off, I never even once mentioned the Old Covenant, of which I love just as much as the New! Nor have I said a thing about "works based salvation" so, don't know where that is coming from.

..."but he also points out that it points us to salvation." <--- no brainier, I think we all know this.

"...rejected Christ's work in favor of relying upon our own will and effort."

What Christian in their right mind would ever do this?? I know how weak I am, it's a pleasure and a relief for me to trust in God to do what I cannot.

We are coming at this, whatever it is, at very different angles it seems. You seem to think I rely on my "works" for salvation and I don't know what ever gave you that idea!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What Christian in their right mind would ever do this?? I know how weak I am, it's a pleasure and a relief for me to trust in God to do what I cannot.

Shnarkle has a good point there you will be able to see if its explained differently maybe...what Christian in their right mind would ever turn away from trust and to trying to change themselves or...what Christian in their right mind would turn away from trust and to incessant worry over how the heck they're going to pay the mortgage this month? Oh, well Nancy and Jennie, of course!

But this is what it's all about - learning the obedience of trust and when we stumble in that race of trust, getting up and turning to trust again and away from disobedience.

 

[Nancy]

Shnarkle has a good point there you will be able to see if its explained differently maybe...what Christian in their right mind would ever turn away from trust and to trying to change themselves or...what Christian in their right mind would turn away from trust and to incessant worry over how the heck they're going to pay the mortgage this month? Oh, well Nancy and Jennie, of course!

But this is what it's all about - learning the obedience of trust and when we stumble in that race of trust, getting up and turning to trust again and away from disobedience.

You see, but I don't worry about those things anymore as I have no control anyhow. Things like, mortgage, utilities, repairs...it's funny that I can now rest in the peace that I can trust Him in these tangible things, even though I have an NSF in my checking account right now. Back in the day, my response would automatically be anxiety, fear and worry, worry, worry. That's finally gone, kaput! It's more the spiritual side of things I can find myself fretting over and, that is where most of my roller-coaster of repentance comes in, lol. "But this is what it's all about - learning the obedience of trust and when we stumble in that race of trust, getting up and turning to trust again and away from disobedience." <---Amen!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, people who are incapable of thinking critically can't see much of anything beyond what they've been inculcated to believe.

I have been inculcated to believe I still sin in unbelief and mistrust sometimes?

I have been inculcated to believe if I do still sin sometimes then I must not be abiding in Him?

I would rather be truthful than be deceived into thinking I am never disobedient in trust and never turn away from it. If I have anger in my heart, I'm going to admit it, not pretend it isn't there. The very fact that He HAS given me a new heart for Him that hungers for righteousness in my inner man is what allows me to be honest!

 

[shnarkle]

Whaaa??
First off, I never even once mentioned the Old Covenant, of which I love just as much as the New! Nor have I said a thing about "works based salvation" so, don't know where that is coming from.

It comes from failure. There is only one way to fail, and that is by working for one's salvation. There is no other option. The Old Covenant was based upon one's decision to turn their life over to serve God. Paul points out that doing the best one can will never work. It's a recipe for failure because our free will decision to serve God is never going to be enough. The will is subject to the carnal mind, not the other way around. Therefore, salvation cannot be by one's free will decision to serve God, but must necessarily be by the grace of God, through Christ's faith operating in the believer.

..."but he also points out that it points us to salvation." <--- no brainier, I think we all know this.

Nope. Most people haven't got a clue. The commandments do NOT point to Christ. It is the sacrificial system that points to Christ. The letter sets a standard before us, but it is only a baseline standard. Christ manifests that standard. God's salvation is through manifesting that standard, and while that is personified in Christ, Christ can't be separated from God's will. In other words, God's law doesn't point to Christ anymore than everything else in the world points to Christ.

"...rejected Christ's work in favor of relying upon our own will and effort."

What Christian in their right mind would ever do this??

We all do this, and we do it quite a bit more than most care to admit. Again, as soon as we fail in any aspect of the law, we have left the security we have in Christ, and chosen to rely upon our own will and effort. That is to return to the conditions of the Old Covenant.

You seem to think I rely on my "works" for salvation and I don't know what ever gave you that idea!

if we sin, then we are no longer relying upon Christ, we are relying upon our own understanding of sin. We are viewing sin as something of no consequence. It is IMPOSSIBLE to sin without any justification. No one can sin without coming to some justification or rationale for sinning. Most of the time, we do it without even thinking. We are completly lost in our sin, and think we're saved. It's preposterous. We think God can raise our dead bodies from the dead, but excuse his inability to lead us in the Spirit. It's incoherent. There is no sin in Christ, and no one can abide in Christ and continue to sin.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You see, but I don't worry about those things anymore as I have no control anyhow. Things like, mortgage, utilities, repairs...it's funny that I can now rest in the peace that I can trust Him in these tangible things, even though I have an NSF in my checking account right now. Back in the day, my response would automatically be anxiety, fear and worry, worry, worry. That's finally gone, kaput! It's more the spiritual side of things I can find myself fretting over and, that is where most of my roller-coaster of repentance comes in, lol. "But this is what it's all about - learning the obedience of trust and when we stumble in that race of trust, getting up and turning to trust again and away from disobedience." <---Amen!

Would you give me a real life example of how you fret over spiritual things rather than temporal things? (Its great peace to turn away from that worry over temporal provision isn't it?? When you get that, you think, good grief, what a moron I was being! How did it take me so long??)

 

[Nancy]

Would you give me a real life example of how you fret over spiritual things rather than temporal things? (Its great peace to turn away from that worry over temporal provision isn't it?? When you get that, you think, good grief, what a moron I was being! How did it take me so long??)

Examples: Bad thoughts towards another flitting through my mind. Losing patience. Condemnation due to lack of prayer and scripture reading (those could as well be the Holy Spirit simply convicting me) doubt that He could possibly love me...I'm sure there is more but, you get the point, lol.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is no sin in Christ, and no one can abide in Christ and continue to sin.

This is the truth!
The point I took issue with is to say that a man has not received the Holy Spirit if he ever sins. Receiving the Holy Spirit and abiding in Christ are not the same thing.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Examples: Bad thoughts towards another flitting through my mind

A bad thought flitting through your mind is not sinning, it is temptation. It is only sinning if you sink down into it rather than saying, help me Lord, my feet are slipping.

 

[shnarkle]

what Christian in their right mind would turn away from trust and to incessant worry over how the heck they're going to pay the mortgage this month? Oh, well Nancy and Jennie, of course!

The reason is of paramount importance. Years ago, I was living on the street, and someone gave me a copy of the Torah. I read it, and began implementing it in my life. I literally had nothing to lose. A few years later, I was looking at buying a home. I had secured a mortgage on a home that was for sale for a little over $200k. I was going to put $40k down, and pay off a $160k mortgage over 30 years. I calculated how much it was going to cost me after 30 years, and it worked out to somewhere around $450k. That wasn't the worst of it though. I woke up in the middle of the night shortly before my inspection period was about to end. I was in a cold sweat. I suddenly knew that I would be enslaved to that debt for the next 30 years and it filled me with terror. I called the realtor the next day and cancelled the deal. He was furious.

The word "mortgage" literally means "death grip". Mort- gives us words like mortuary, mortician, etc. and -gage comes from a root that mean "grip". The bible plainly refers to it as slavery, and I suddenly realized that was exactly what I was about to do. I was about to enslave myself to that house for the next 30 years.

What happened next is nothing less than miraculous. Within about a year, I had bought a piece of vacant land; three lots on one parcel. Then I hired a contractor to build a garage for me. Then I had him build the foundation for a house, then the pony wall, then the house. I did this all in stages while I was driving a truck across country. A year later, it was almost done, and I returned home to finish up the easy stuff myself. I owned that home outright with no mortgage.

Then I bought two more houses, and then another, and another. I never borrowed a cent for any of them. That's how God allows you to cease from worrying about how to pay for anything.

Then I noticed that the house I was living in was costing me over $3k a year just in property taxes. The utilities were running about the same as well. I was paying close to $7k a year just for those two items alone. A friend asked me to help him pack up his belongings, load a moving truck and drive it across from California to Florida. I obliged his request, and when I got out there, I noticed that there was a house just like the one I was living in out there, but it was only worth $30k. I bought it, and sold my home in California for a $110k; a $40k LOSS from what I had invested in it! I sold my other homes in CA as well for a small profit, and then bought another house in Florida for $15k. It was a better house than the $30k one which I sold for a profit.

I now pay NOTHING in property taxes. I pay NOTHING for income taxes. I have practically no expenses at all. I cancelled my health insurance. Not because I couldn't afford it, but because I don't need it anymore. I'm healthier now than I was over 30 years ago. That's what obedience can do for you, but even that's not enough. That's not what was allowing me to do these things. It was walking in faith. It was trusting that what God says is true. I had to do it to see that it was the truth. Seeing is believing.

learning the obedience of trust...

The obedience of trust is not the same as the trust that comes from obedience.

and when we stumble in that race of trust, getting up and turning to trust again and away from disobedience.

This is no different than what an obedient, and observant Jew does under the Old Covenant. I have provided a link to one of the websites I have subscribed to, and you will be hard pressed to find anything noticeably different than what you would find on most, if not all Christian websites. This is where I really began to see how Christians are actually operating under the conditions of the Old Covenant rather than the New.

 

[shnarkle]

I have been inculcated to believe I still sin in unbelief and mistrust sometimes?

You've been taught that you can sin under the New Covenant. I have pointed out that the bible categorically denies that as a possibility. Are you ever going to address those passages I cited to support this position?

I have been inculcated to believe if I do still sin sometimes then I must not be abiding in Him?

No, you've been inculcated to believe that you have received the spirit, and this in no way prevents you from sinning. You have already admitted that one can receive the spirit, and continue to sin. Paul points out that isn't the case. I and others have pointed out what Paul clearly states. You have simply responded by saying that you don't buy into that. There really isn't anything to discuss beyond that.

I would rather be truthful than be deceived into thinking I am never disobedient

Who has suggested otherwise? Nobody is suggesting that you're perfect, or that you don't sin. We agree on that point.

If I have anger in my heart, I'm going to admit it, not pretend it isn't there.

Where did I ever suggest that anyone should pretend that there is no sin in their heart?

The very fact that He HAS given me a new heart for Him that hungers for righteousness in my inner man is what allows me to be honest!

Again, this doesn't place you into the New Covenant though. The facts from the bible overwhelmingly reject the idea that anyone can sin under the New Covenant. Again, Paul clearly points out that those who walk after the Spirit do NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh.

To admit one has sinned is to admit one has fulfilled the lust of the flesh, and no one who walks after the Spirit sins because one cannot be led by the Spirit to sin.