Studying the Bible without thinking critically

[Nancy]

A bad thought flitting through your mind is not sinning, it is temptation. It is only sinning if you sink down into it rather than saying, help me Lord, my feet are slipping.

I'll be specific on one of those thoughts that have only a few times over the last 8 years. I have a next door neighbor who never cleans his house or yard. His yard is infested with rats and mice. His rats have been nesting in the back of my shed for years. They dug a rut from his yard right into my shed. He has not always been the nicest of guys...he eats bad food and is not healthy. The few thoughts were the same and only fleeting but: At times I wish he would keel over with a heart attack and they would destroy his house, I'm pretty sure. Then the condemnation comes even though I would instantly repent. I'm now far enough along to actually pray for him.
I tell people off in my mind, lol...it only brings condemnation down on myself because during my tirade (in my mind), I realize at some point that I am guilty of hypocrisy. Doubting His love for me. And, here is a horrid one that THANK GOD I no longer have flitting in my mind; the fact that Jesus paid for our sin-yet are we too not paying in a way by having to live a lifetime of sometimes hell on earth? Yes, seems pretty close to blasphemy, yes? I then (this was awhile back) realized the simple answer was that we still have to pay consequences on this earth for our decisions, and most of those consequences are due to the fact that we wanted to do it our own way, and we know where that leads. If only we follow His precepts, obey Him then our cup will be full!

 

[shnarkle]

If only we follow His precepts, obey Him then our cup will be full!

What I discovered was that God bestows his blessings abundantly on everyone. God is wastefully spreading his blessings on everyone. Our cup is overflowing constantly, but most simply don't know it. We're so full of our personal problems that we never notice God's blessings spilling over all around us.

Following God's precepts allows us to catch sight of that fact. It can only snowball from there until we finally realize that it was God all along dragging us to do His will.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The obedience of trust is not the same as the trust that comes from obedience.

Interesting...I think this is just another way of saying that He grows our trust. We move from trust to trust and begin to stand firmer and firmer in it as we see what He will do when we trust. A small mustard seed becomes a big tree..

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is no different than what an obedient, and observant Jew does under the Old Covenant

Well, it does say Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness...God is pleased with trust.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You've been taught that you can sin under the New Covenant. I have pointed out that the bible categorically denies that as a possibility. Are you ever going to address those passages I cited to support this position

I have addressed them. I don't believe you are seeing them and interpreting them correctly. You mash things together that I don't think need to be or should be mashed together.

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that babies pop out of the womb and can immediately walk and run and never soil themselves.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I have addressed them. I don't believe you are seeing them and interpreting them correctly. You mash things together that I don't think need to be or should be mashed together.

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that babies pop out of the womb and can immediately walk and run and never soil themselves.

Its kind of funny. I get a scene in my head of parents seeing their baby keep clumsily falling while learning to walk and soil himself all the time and saying, oh my gosh, when will our baby be born so he can stop doing these things???

 

[Nancy]

What I discovered was that God bestows his blessings abundantly on everyone. God is wastefully spreading his blessings on everyone. Our cup is overflowing constantly, but most simply don't know it. We're so full of our personal problems that we never notice God's blessings spilling over all around us.

Following God's precepts allows us to catch sight of that fact. It can only snowball from there until we finally realize that it was God all along dragging us to do His will.

"Our cup is overflowing constantly, but most simply don't know it. We're so full of our personal problems that we never notice God's blessings spilling over all around us."

This is true. We can also see his cup which is always full and overflowing to the cisterns we ourselves dig...they are full of holes and too many continue to try and fill these cisterns with the things of the world, which can never fulfill. God's cup is always full and yes, Christians need to realize this and maintain the Joy of The Lord through His cup. Psalm 16:5
"The LORD is my chosen portion and my cup; You have made my lot secure."

Jeremiah 2:13
"For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water."

 

[Nancy]

Its kind of funny. I get a scene in my head of parents seeing their baby keep clumsily falling while learning to walk and soil himself all the time and saying, oh my gosh, when will our baby be born so he can stop doing these things???

 

[shnarkle]

Interesting...I think this is just another way of saying that He grows our trust. We move from trust to trust and begin to stand firmer and firmer in it as we see what He will do when we trust. A small mustard seed becomes a big tree..

Trust comes through revelation, but revelation isn't always clear to everyone. Moses gets direct revelation while the children of Israel "stand afar off". They're shaking like leaves in the wind, but even they have enough sense to say they'll do whatever God asks them. The presence of God is in their midst, and therefore sin results in immediate death. That's what happens when one comes into close quarters with God's holiness. The farther away we get from that, the more complacent we become, and when that happens God warns us not to get to comfortable, but to be vigilant in awaiting his return.

When we see God's revelation clearly, it is a "no brainer" to keep God's laws because we have seen the wisdom of God's will. However, if we haven't gotten a clear revelation, we're not going to see the wisdom of God's will. At that point, the only way to see the wisdom is to actually do what God says. The Old Covenant is a "learn by doing" methodology. When one carries out God's law, the wisdom of God's law is seen in the effects. Obedience results in one result while disobedience results in another. Moses puts it this way: he says they have a choice. They can choose the benediction that comes with obedience, or they can choose the malediction that comes with disobedience.

The more one endeavors to keep God's laws, the more one sees that God has given these laws for our benefit. Each and every law has a beneficial blessing that comes along with it. The more one keeps God's law, the more rewarding and fulfilling life becomes

I used to be in hospitals all the time for broken bones, lacerations, disease, etc. It was an exercise in futility to fix me. Over the last twenty years, my trips to the doctor have been fewer and fewer, but what's most enjoyable for me is when they start asking me their laundry list of afflictions, bad habits, etc. that I no longer abide in. Do you do drugs? Nope. Do you drink? Nope. Do you smoke? Nope. Do you have diabetes, heart disease, or cancer? Nope Multiple sex partners? Nope. Sexually active? Nope. That checklist allows them to eliminate a whole host of problems. There aren't that many other options available at that point.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Trust comes through revelation, but revelation isn't always clear to everyone. Moses gets direct revelation while the children of Israel "stand afar off". They're shaking like leaves in the wind, but even they have enough sense to say they'll do whatever God asks them. The presence of God is in their midst, and therefore sin results in immediate death. That's what happens when one comes into close quarters with God's holiness. The farther away we get from that, the more complacent we become, and when that happens God warns us not to get to comfortable, but to be vigilant in awaiting his return.

When we see God's revelation clearly, it is a "no brainer" to keep God's laws because we have seen the wisdom of God's will. However, if we haven't gotten a clear revelation, we're not going to see the wisdom of God's will. At that point, the only way to see the wisdom is to actually do what God says. The Old Covenant is a "learn by doing" methodology. When one carries out God's law, the wisdom of God's law is seen in the effects. Obedience results in one result while disobedience results in another. Moses puts it this way: he says they have a choice. They can choose the benediction that comes with obedience, or they can choose the malediction that comes with disobedience.

The more one endeavors to keep God's laws, the more one sees that God has given these laws for our benefit. Each and every law has a beneficial blessing that comes along with it. The more one keeps God's law, the more rewarding and fulfilling life becomes

I used to be in hospitals all the time for broken bones, lacerations, disease, etc. It was an exercise in futility to fix me. Over the last twenty years, my trips to the doctor have been fewer and fewer, but what's most enjoyable for me is when they start asking me their laundry list of afflictions, bad habits, etc. that I no longer abide in. Do you do drugs? Nope. Do you drink? Nope. Do you smoke? Nope. Do you have diabetes, heart disease, or cancer? Nope Multiple sex partners? Nope. Sexually active? Nope. That checklist allows them to eliminate a whole host of problems. There aren't that many other options available at that point.

I can't exactly argue with what you have said here...except I am arguing inside because the letter of the law is not life. It is the Spirit of the law that is life. The law is good and spiritual, (setting aside, for the moment, where God said, I gave you some laws that were not good for you).

So to see the law as don't touch, don't taste, etc., that's the letter. It is the spirit of the law that avails a man.

 

[shnarkle]

I can't exactly argue with what you have said here...except I am arguing inside because the letter of the law is not life. It is the Spirit of the law that is life. The law is good and spiritual, (setting aside, for the moment, where God said, I gave you some laws that were not good for you).

So to see the law as don't touch, don't taste, etc., that's the letter.

No. False. That is not the letter. Paul is not referring to God's law at all. Look at the context:

"8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy,"

Do you really believe that sound doctrine is actually now deceptive philosophy?

" which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ."

Do you now believe that God's commandments are human traditions, or depend upon elemental spiritual forces of the world?

"13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh,"

Where does God requires uncircumcision? The uncircumcision never refers to the Mosaic law.

"God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."

Do you really think that Christ magnified the law by making a public spectacle of them?

"20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:"

Paul doesn't refer to God's law as elemental spiritual forces of this world. That is completely ridiculous.

" 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings."

So the law that God gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai is now merely a human command and teaching?

" 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

This is what God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai?

It is the spirit of the law that avails a man.

Not the spirit of human traditions that have only an appearance of wisdom.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No. False. That is not the letter. Paul is not referring to God's law at all.

Okay...what is the letter of the word and what is the Spirit of the word, in your view?

Paul said the law is spiritual and good.

 

[shnarkle]

Okay...what is the letter of the word and what is the Spirit of the word, in your view?

I just provided the context itself. He's not referring to the Mosaic law at all.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I just provided the context itself. He's not referring to the Mosaic law at all.

Okay, then explain what you think Paul meant when he said the law is spiritual and good...

 

[Nancy]

Okay, then explain what you think Paul meant when he said the law is spiritual and good...

Are you two discussing something that pertains to:
2 Corinthians:6-7
"6And He has qualified us as ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelite's could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?…"

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Are you two discussing something that pertains to:
2 Corinthians:6-7
"6And He has qualified us as ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelite's could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?…"

Yes! Very good.
It's amazing that (as Epi would say), he has it exactly backwards. I try to remind myself often of my odd penchant to always get it exactly backwards. It helps to keep that in my mind.

It really is exactly backwards. He says most are stuck in the old covenant, rather than the new and life giving way of the Spirit, while he has it backwards and he himself is stuck there...

The amazing thing is not so much that we can get some things backwards, but that we get them EXACTLY backwards.

We are spiritually dyslexic I think.

 

[Nancy]

Yes! Very good.
It's amazing that (as Epi would say), he has it exactly backwards. I try to remind myself often of my odd penchant to always get it exactly backwards. It helps to keep that in my mind.

It really is exactly backwards. He says most are stuck in the old covenant, rather than the new and life giving way of the Spirit, while he has it backwards and he himself is stuck there...

The amazing thing is not so much that we can get some things backwards, but that we get them EXACTLY backwards.

We are spiritually dyslexic I think.

Spiritually dyslexic, lol. My guess is that when we get it backwards...we are actually understanding it correctly? Just a thought as I do find I can truly have things out of context...

It's futile to even converse (to me, anyhow) with one who thinks they can have one foot in the Old Covenant and one in the New. Flirt with Moses, cheat on Jesus. Grace vs Law...why is that so difficult for some to understand??

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Spiritually dyslexic, lol. My guess is that when we get it backwards...we are actually understanding it correctly? Just a thought as I do find I can truly have things out of context...

It's futile to even converse (to me, anyhow) with one who thinks they can have one foot in the Old Covenant and one in the New. Flirt with Moses, cheat on Jesus. Grace vs Law...why is that so difficult for some to understand??

And yet, all the law and the prophets speak about Jesus. And the law is spiritual and good if the spirit of the law is understood.

When I'm reading it, it helps to remind myself of Paul, when he quoted the law about not keeping oxen from eating while they're working, and then he says, but you don't think God was really talking about oxen there, do you??

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Spiritually dyslexic, lol. My guess is that when we get it backwards...we are actually understanding it correctly? Just a thought as I do find I can truly have things out of context...

It's futile to even converse (to me, anyhow) with one who thinks they can have one foot in the Old Covenant and one in the New. Flirt with Moses, cheat on Jesus. Grace vs Law...why is that so difficult for some to understand??

You want to hear something trippy? The human eye sees upside down. Literally. The image of what you are looking at enters your eye exactly upside down, but you don't see it that way because something in your brain flips it immediately. It happens in the brain, the mind. I wonder if it's related....

 

[shnarkle]

Okay, then explain what you think Paul meant when he said the law is spiritual and good...

Keeping the law is spiritual and good. Transgressing it is to operate by the flesh. The carnal mind is not spiritual. It is carnal, and can never be subject to the law. Only the Spirit can keep God's law. That's explicitly what Paul is talking about in Romans 8.