Taking Scriptural Authority

[lforrest]

How should you present the scriptures along with your own ideas and interpretation? Is it improper to present your ideas along side scripture as to say, "if you disagree with me you disagree with scripture". I am leaning towards not coercing people to believe as I do out of their fear of God. Although I want it to be clear that what I am saying is scriptural.

Ultimately the Goal I have in mind is for people to see my perspective and consider it. If they immediately reject it I have not caused them to sin by making them also read the scriptures. If they consider it then reject it by their own understanding of scripture, isn't that good because I have caused them to seek the Lord. Then there is the possibility that they see as I do and take the necessary actions.

 

[RANDOR]

forrest...who you be talkin to.....the Lost?.......or another Christian?

 

[lforrest]

other christians

 

[RANDOR]

I was remodeling a womans home 4 years ago...I looked over and she was just staring out the window....lookin sad.
I asked her...are you ok?......Of course she said yes...but there was a lot of things worrying her.

I told her...ya know who that is don't cha
And she said..."Oh---you're sounding like my daughter"

I thought to myself.....this lady has been goin to church all her life....and at 87 years of age....doesn't know how to battle.

I sat with her...and we discussed the situation....and after we were done....she said....I've never seen it that way before.

Yep.............in my view....all scripture should mean the same thing to all Christians.......

It's when man beats the Holy Spirit to them......is when they get all confused or become more deeply lost......for now they believe what man taught them and call it gospel...their enire life.




[SIZE=18pt]Jewish Law interpretation...[/SIZE]











Two Laws in the Torah were fulfilled on the same day.


[SIZE=xx-small]For those who haven't heard, Washington State passed two landmark laws: "Gay marriage" and the "Legalization of marijuana."
The fact that gay marriage and marijuana were legalized on the same day makes perfect biblical sense because Leviticus 20:13 says: "If a man lies with another man they should be stoned."
We just hadn't interpreted it correctly.[/SIZE]

 

[Shirley]

In the early days of Christianity It was just as diverse as it is today. I like to hear the opinions of what others think the scriptures mean. I have often said Maybe you are right to people who are speaking their own religion. I think it is possible that even when a religion is wrong and totally wrong that God may not open the eyes of the religious person b/c he is about families. It is the religious leaders who will be held accountable when they teach false doctrine. I have picked one subject and studied it for years and begged God to show me the truth of the interpretation and he didn't. It was then that i knew that I did not know the plan that God had for others. Even when I knew they were wrong I kept my mouth shut b/c if God did not guide me to tell them, when I knew they were wrong then i kept my mouth shut. I love what Brother Randor said about us getting there before the Holy Spirit. I really think that we often react with ego when we think we know something without considering that we were taught by men. This is the reason why I would never call myself a teacher b/c then I would be responsible for leading people astray.
I think it is perfectly alright to offer opinions along side of scripture. God gave us a brain capable of thinking for ourselves. Religion usually does not allow that. I remember many people getting in trouble for asking a question. I just love it when I see Brothers and Sisters having different views and getting along anyway. I believe it is wrong to tell another Brother or Sister that they have a different God b/c they believe differently. I think God is more interested in love and families than Doctrine!!!!

 

[Tex]

Someone could (but shouldn't) believe that the scriptures were full of errors and still have faith in Jesus.

So, interpretation isn't that important. You have to take the text and figure out what it means. There will be reasons for this way or that way, and which ever you choose must be supported somehow. You could (but shouldn't) take the verse "Jesus wept" and say that means pancakes are inherently evil. It is unreasonable. So, in arguments over interpretation, you must use reason.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

The holy Scripture is many things, but it is not an authority. Jesus invested his authority directly in a living, breathing IMPERFECT Church, not a book.

 

[lforrest]

The scriptures are the word of God, and they will not return to him empty. This is the authority of scripture, and as followers of Christ we can know his ways and follow them. The Church certainly doesn't have authority over the scriptures, or should man be true and God a liar.

 

[Nomad]

The holy Scripture is many things, but it is not an authority. Jesus invested his authority directly in a living, breathing IMPERFECT Church, not a book.

Really?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Even Rome would disagree with you to the point of pronouncing anathema. Are you simply unaware of Rome's teaching on the authority of Scripture or are you a cafeteria style Catholic?

"But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church." The Council of Trent, The Fourth Session.

https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct04.html

Here's what the highly venerated fathers of the RCC had to say about the authority of Scripture.

Irenaeus (ca. 150)
Against Heresies 3.1.1

“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than
from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they
did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of
God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar
of our faith.”

Clement of Alexandria (d. 215)
The Stromata, 7:16

“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not
desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from
the Scriptures themselves.”

Gregory of Nyssa (d.ca, 395)
“On the Holy Trinity”, NPNF, p. 327

“Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth
will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the
Divine words.”

Athanasius (c. 296–373)
Against the Heathen, 1:3

“The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the
proclamation of the truth.”

Basil the Great (ca.329–379)
On the Holy Spirit, 7.16

“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers.
What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the
Scripture.”

Ambrose (340–397 A.D.)
On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102

“For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy
Scriptures?”

St. Augustine (354–430)
De unitate ecclesiae, 10

“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in
anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical
Scriptures of God.”

Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274)
Summa Theologiae, Question 1, art. 8

“For our faith rests on the revelation made to the Prophets and
Apostles who wrote the canonical books.”

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

The Catholic Church categorically rejects sola scriptura and has never taught it. Even what you quote runs circles around the obvious, that it's not the Bible that has authority, but the Catholic Church and specifically the Councils of Hippo and Rome at the end of the 4th century that pronounced what the Bible is and isn't. The Bible is a product of authority, an obvious conclusion that I don't have to document....you did that already for me. Moreover your quotation of 2Timothy, used often to defend sola scriptura, does not say that scripture is authoritative, or that it's sufficient in and of itself as a rule of faith.

Not only does the Bible never defend sola scriptura, it points to the true authority, the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth (1Timothy 3:15) And far from directing Christians to adhere only to the written word, the Bible tells Christians to hold to the traditions they have been taught, whether orally or by epistle (2Thess 2:15).


And speaking of the epistles, they don't record everything the apostles teach any more than the gospels record everything Jesus taught. This is why it's Sacred Tradition which includes the Holy Scriptures which contains the full repository of the Christian faith handed down through the centuries. Do you want to know everything that Jesus taught? How about the apostles that were charged to teach everything they heard from Jesus? It's not all contained in the canon of scripture, but much of it is disclosed by the teachings of the early church fathers, Augustine of Hippo, Jerome and Clement, Tertullian. These were successors of the apostles, discipled in their teachings, and passing on that teaching. That's how the Christian faith was passed on from generation to generation. Not only was there never entertained a ridiculous notion that the Bible alone was the rule of faith, but in fact the 4 centuries it took to finally make official a Christian canon demonstrates that Christians did just fine without one, being taught the oral tradition that came from the apostles themselves.

The scriptures are the word of God, and they will not return to him empty. This is the authority of scripture, and as followers of Christ we can know his ways and follow them. The Church certainly doesn't have authority over the scriptures, or should man be true and God a liar.

The Bible wouldn't exist if the Church didn't have authority over scripture. The Bible shows clearly that Jesus commissioned a church, not a book. You don't even read the very Bible you claim is the sole rule of the Christian faith because the Bible flatly refutes such an absurd notion.

 

[Nomad]

The Catholic Church categorically rejects sola scriptura and has never taught it.

Sorry, we're not talking about Sola Scriptura. That has to do with the extent of Scripture's authority. It was never mentioned. We're talking about your outright rejection of Scripture's authority in any way, shape or form, despite the witness of Scripture, ecumenical council and the early Church fathers.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Sorry, we're not talking about Sola Scriptura. That has to do with the extent of Scripture's authority. It was never mentioned. We're talking about your outright rejection of Scripture's authority in any way, shape or form, despite the witness of Scripture, ecumenical council and the early Church fathers.

Neither council nor the early church fathers backs up this heresy and...speaking of cafeteria Catholics...I can come up with a similar list of quotes from church fathers affirming the authority of the Catholic Church, and Rome in particular. This is the problem with being eclectic. You also ignored the obvious fact that if a church council can decide what the Bible is, then the Bible is a product of authority, not authority itself. I can't make you see the obvious if you're willingly blind to it.

 

[Nomad]

Neither council nor the early church fathers backs up this heresy...

So believing that our God-breathed Scriptures are authoritative is heresy? Are you sure that you're Roman Catholic? I've never met a Roman Catholic who believed against Rome, Apostolic witness, (2 Tim. 3:16), and early Church Fathers that Scripture has absolutely no authority. Interesting.

Again you wrote:

The holy Scripture is many things, but it is not an authority. Jesus invested his authority directly in a living, breathing IMPERFECT Church, not a book.

 

[John Zain]

I like to hear the opinions of what others think the scriptures mean.

Many times a person's spiritual experiences bring to light what the Scriptures are saying.
It is obvious to them, but certainly not to others.

Pastors have said about a verse,
"20 years ago, I believed one way about it, but now I have a deeper understanding of it."

I see what Acts teaches about the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
but I do not believe I can teach those truths to one who has not received that baptism.
To them, it's all nonsense ... they scream, "I received that baptism when I was saved."

 

[Madad21]

The holy Scripture is many things, but it is not an authority. Jesus invested his authority directly in a living, breathing IMPERFECT Church, not a book.

Why is it that when God speaks to us that he use's his Word?

I have prayed and had scripture brought directly to mind, scriptures I had long forgotten I even read.

If this mere book had no authority then why does God use it to speak to us as his authoritative word?

I have read other books, why couldnt he use the words of those un-authoritative books, they are just books too?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Why is it that when God speaks to us that he use's his Word?

I have prayed and had scripture brought directly to mind, scriptures I had long forgotten I even read.

If this mere book had no authority then why does God use it to speak to us as his authoritative word?

It isn't a mere book, but it also isn't the vessel of authority commissioned by Jesus Christ. The Church is. The Bible is the word of God and in every Catholic mass it's referred to as such. But the authority of God in doctrinal and administrative matters has been vested in a living Church. The Bible itself documents this very fact, this transition of power. The Bible is a product of authority, for only a Church commissioned by Jesus Christ himself has the authority to determine what the Christian canon would be.

 

[Madad21]

I get what your trying to say, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one bud. :)

 

[aspen]

The Bible and the Church are equal authorities.

 

[lforrest]

So there is no issue with using the scriptures heavily to make your point.

 

[aspen]

Not for me.