Tares Reveal Themselves by what they DON’T Say...And They Are With us Here .How to Identify Them...
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
The key is did GOD really say . Not kenneth copeland . Nor that nar group etc . Thems i refuse to follow .
FOR JESUS DID SAY HEAP NOT UP FOR YOURSELVES TREASURES UPON THIS EARTH . Them charlatons , and i do mean charlatons ,
those men of belial and i do say Belial , I Refuse to heed . Let us simply HEED the JESUS of the bible and learn all sound doctrine well .
GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
God is man's judge not other little men!! Why ask for early judgment??? Those that attack God's family are asking for BIG trouble!!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
We should judge the house of God in the sense of ensuring that right doctrine is being taught. Paul commanded us to do this! On the other hand, insulting men of God is the opposite of holding them accountable, and will likely bring some kind of judgment. We need to admonish and rebuke, but not deny brothers and sisters in the Lord. And if they are in ministry, they are worthy of double honor. If, however, they are teaching bad doctrine, they can be dismissed and ignored unless they make amends.
1 Cor 6. 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!
Titus 1.9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
3.10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.
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Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." - 1 Jhn 5:3
God's definition of love is keeping His commandments, not a human emotion the world calls love. Believing in Christ includes believing what He said. Contrary to what lawless people believe, belief in Christ doesn't just stop at believing He exists. I noticed that you used 1 Jhn 3 to support what is an asinine theology and that you deliberately skipped over how the Bible defines sin in the same chapter:
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." - 1 Jhn 3:4
As the passage clearly teaches, sin is violating God's commandments, not your personal opinions/beliefs. If sin is violating God's commandments, then the clear implication exists that Christians are supposed to keep them. After all, a Christian is biblically defined as someone who follows the example Christ set, and He kept those commandments when He walked this earth.
Furthermore, Christ taught what a person has to do in order to inherit eternal life:
"Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” - Matt. 19:16-19
Again, the passage is 100% clear and doesn't need anyone's personal interpretations. Christ plainly told the young man that anyone who had to keep the 10 commandments if they wanted to receive eternal life and not just believe He exists. Now compare that to what the Bible has to say about the people who refuse to live by God's commandments:
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." - 1 Cor. 6:9-10
"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." - Gal. 5:19-21
“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” - Rev. 21:8
You can present lawless theology as pretty as you want under a pretext of grace and love, but the truth is evident for any true follower of Christ to see that the "Christians" who refuse to keep God's commandments are the kind of religious deceivers the apostles warned against. The Bible doesn't lie, and it says anyone who subscribes to or even preach this theology is a liar.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Sin is rebelling against God's Law. But you have to use words in context--not apply them as you see fit. The word "Law" can be applied either to God's eternal Law as applied to mankind, who are required to live in God's image. The Law of God, therefore, is not limited to the Law of Moses.
When you quote what Jesus said to the people in his time, he quoted the Law of God as defined by the Law of Moses because at the time that was God's Law for Israel. But after the crucifixion, God's promises to Israel were no longer contingent on the Law of Moses.s That covenant had been broken by the nation.
And so, the promises of God came to rely on the atonement of Christ, which is much more secure than the Law of Moses, which always was weak. Human sin could not be overcome to bring eternal life, since God had decreed that sinful Man must die.
And so, God's Law is defined by the new basis for living in covenant with God, since the old covenant of Moses' Law failed. God's Law is now defined as the universal Law of Christ, requiring us to depend on his atonement for our salvation and live by his Law to please him. To go back to the Law of Moses is to go back to a failed covenant and to a system of atonement that was only temporary and never could bring us eternal life.
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." - 1 Jhn 3:4
Truer Words never never spoken! .....I sure am glad my Sins have been nailed to the Cross......unfortunately , your confused Ilk wants to take them back down from the Cross and put them back on those of us that have been Redeemed because we put our ENTIRE FAITH in the Finished Work Of The Cross....
Your verses from 1 Corinthians and Galatians are taken out of context....as are ALL verses that seem to contradict Ephesians 2:8.....and a host of others....I’ve debunked your type of stuff so many times over the years it has become boring....maybe later I will get you straightened out with your Grace- Denying Doctrine....you will get nothing out if it, but I will use you as a “ Springboard” to get the True Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing out there for Newbies.....
Ferris..... I know we have had our disagreements, but I never thought you were so far gone that you would give a thumbs up to this poor guy’s Confused “ doctrine”......He May be well- meaning , but he is Clueless when it comes to understanding Salvation....
Truer Words never never spoken! .....I sure am glad my Sins have been nailed to the Cross......unfortunately , your confused Ilk wants to take them back down from the Cross and put them back on those of us that have been Redeemed because we put our ENTIRE FAITH in the Finished Work Of The Cross....
Your verses from 1 Corinthians and Galatians are taken out of context....as are ALL verses that seem to contradict Ephesians 2:8.....and a host of others....I’ve debunked your type of stuff so many times over the years it has become boring....maybe later I will get you straightened out with your Grace- Denying Doctrine....you will get nothing out if it, but I will use you as a “ Springboard” to get the True Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing out there for Newbies.....
Ferris..... I know we have had our disagreements, but I never thought you were so far gone that you would give a thumbs up to this poor guy’s Confused “ doctrine”......He May be well- meaning , but he is Clueless when it comes to understanding Salvation....
Again, the passage is 100% clear and doesn't need anyone's personal interpretations. Christ plainly told the young man that anyone who had to keep the 10 commandments if they wanted to receive eternal life and not just believe He exists. Now compare that to what the Bible has to say about the people who refuse to live by God's commandments:
First of all , nobody is claiming one gets Saved because the believe that Jesus existed— how absolutely ludicrous ! Believing Jesus died for your sins and rose from the grave is Paul’s Gospel from 1Cor 15:1-4 and this Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing is what Saves a soul from Hell.....Absolutely NO mention of “ keeping the Commandments”...... those Commandments are “ weak and useless” according to Paul ,unless you know how to USE them! You don’t know how to use them properly because you lack understanding of the Bible....let me help you .....The 613 Commandments Of God ( not just ten) were given to show that you can not keep them.....they are to show you that you are a Sinner who MUST have a Savior.....That “Savior” being Jesus Christ.....
The Rich , Young Ruler was a Fool.....he actually thought he had kept all of the Commandments .....he was guilty of the Sin Of “ Self-Righteousness” .....He, like all of us can’t even keep the first and most important Commandment——- NOBODY “Ever” Loved God with ALL of their heart , with ALL of their soul, and with ALL of their mind.....not this deluded Young Ruler, not me , and not YOU! Jesus was trying to take the “ Air” out Of this Fools “ self- Righteous Balloon”....... of course, Jesus did this magnificently......The guy went away totally dejected.....it may have been the best thing that ever happened to him——- * IF* it lead him to later see his need for Grace , admitting to himself and God that he was just another Hell- Bound Sinner That needed a Savior.....The Law had not served its true purpose in this guy’s life the day he encountered Jesus.....It appears you and he have a lot in common.....you need Grace and tons of it....why do you reject the only thing that has Saved anybody that ever “ was” Saved ? You need to change your thinking.....that is what the word “ Repent” means.....I hope you repent while there is still time.....you are a victim of some very bad teaching....
First of all , nobody is claiming one gets Saved because the believe that Jesus existed— how absolutely ludicrous ! Believing Jesus died for your sins and rose from the grave is Paul’s Gospel from 1Cor 15:1-4 and this Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing is what Saves a soul from Hell.....Absolutely NO mention of “ keeping the Commandments”...... those Commandments are “ weak and useless” according to Paul ,unless you know how to USE them! You don’t know how to use them properly because you lack understanding of the Bible....let me help you .....The 613 Commandments Of God ( not just ten) were given to show that you can not keep them.....they are to show you that you are a Sinner who MUST have a Savior.....That “Savior” being Jesus Christ.....
The Rich , Young Ruler was a Fool.....he actually thought he had kept all of the Commandments .....he was guilty of the Sin Of “ Self-Righteousness” .....He, like all of us can’t even keep the first and most important Commandment——- NOBODY “Ever” Loved God with ALL of their heart , with ALL of their soul, and with ALL of their mind.....not this deluded Young Ruler, not me , and not YOU! Jesus was trying to take the “ Air” out Of this Fools “ self- Righteous Balloon”....... of course, Jesus did this magnificently......The guy went away totally dejected.....it may have been the best thing that ever happened to him——- * IF* it lead him to later see his need for Grace , admitting to himself and God that he was just another Hell- Bound Sinner That needed a Savior.....The Law had not served its true purpose in this guy’s life the day he encountered Jesus.....It appears you and he have a lot in common.....you need Grace and tons of it....why do you reject the only thing that has Saved anybody that ever “ was” Saved ? You need to change your thinking.....that is what the word “ Repent” means.....I hope you repent while there is still time.....you are a victim of some very bad teaching....
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
@Ferris Bueller
It’s confusing to you because you have been lead away from the plain, unadulterated, teachings of the holy scriptures my friend.
It’s confusing to you because you have been lead away from the plain, unadulterated, teachings of the holy scriptures my friend.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I didn't see anything contrary in his post. I understand that the grace denier is the one who does not live in a lifestyle of obedience to God. They are the ones who have denied the gospel of grace, not the ones who live in obedience to God. That's not a confused doctrine. Progressive Christianity has blinded the eyes of so many people today so that they think living in obedience to God is denying grace while living in disobedience is embracing and receiving the gospel of grace. Obedience is automatically considered self righteousness by the church now.
And anyone who denies the requirement to ask God to forgive our sins as part of being regenerated, is a false teacher.
How to be saved.
Jesus Himself tells us about a man who comes to the altar, and prays a sinners prayer of REPENTANCE to God, and is forgiven. Luke 18:13
And repentance is necessary as part of conversion, and having our sins forgiven Acts 3:19
Jesus said unless you repent, you will perish, and said He came to call sinners unto repentance.
That establishes biblically that repentance is not part of faith.
To become a son of God you must choose to receive Jesus per John 1:12
You receive Jesus by asking Him to come into your heart, as Jesus told to the church in Revelation 3:20, and when you do He lives in your heart Ephesians 3:17.
You must confess out loud, with your mouth, the faith in your heart in the Lord Jesus, and that God raised Him from the dead, and CALL UPON the name of the Lord to be SAVED Romans 10:8-13
Jesus said we must confess Him before men for Him to confess us to the Father. Matthew 10:32
.To become a child of God, you must choose to receive Jesus, (John 1:12),by asking Him into your heart (Revelation 3:20), where He then dwells (Ephesians 3:17and Colossians 1:27), plus you must choose to repent and ask Him to forgive your sins so they are forgiven (Acts 3:19 and Acts 20:21), and call upon His name to be saved Romans 10:13.
Prayer for salvation: Lord Jesus, I believe you died for my sins and rose again - please come into my heart, forgive my sins, save my soul, and make me a new creation. In your name, amen.
Jesus Himself tells us about a man who comes to the altar, and prays a sinners prayer of REPENTANCE to God, and is forgiven. Luke 18:13
And repentance is necessary as part of conversion, and having our sins forgiven Acts 3:19
Jesus said unless you repent, you will perish, and said He came to call sinners unto repentance.
That establishes biblically that repentance is not part of faith.
To become a son of God you must choose to receive Jesus per John 1:12
You receive Jesus by asking Him to come into your heart, as Jesus told to the church in Revelation 3:20, and when you do He lives in your heart Ephesians 3:17.
You must confess out loud, with your mouth, the faith in your heart in the Lord Jesus, and that God raised Him from the dead, and CALL UPON the name of the Lord to be SAVED Romans 10:8-13
Jesus said we must confess Him before men for Him to confess us to the Father. Matthew 10:32
.To become a child of God, you must choose to receive Jesus, (John 1:12),by asking Him into your heart (Revelation 3:20), where He then dwells (Ephesians 3:17and Colossians 1:27), plus you must choose to repent and ask Him to forgive your sins so they are forgiven (Acts 3:19 and Acts 20:21), and call upon His name to be saved Romans 10:13.
Prayer for salvation: Lord Jesus, I believe you died for my sins and rose again - please come into my heart, forgive my sins, save my soul, and make me a new creation. In your name, amen.
.To become a child of God, you must choose to receive Jesus, (John 1:12),by asking Him into your heart (Revelation 3:20), where He then dwells (Ephesians 3:17and Colossians 1:27), plus you must choose to repent and ask Him to forgive your sins so they are forgiven (Acts 3:19 and Acts 20:21), and call upon His name to be saved Romans 10:13.
Close but no cigar.....that “choose to repent” thingy? .....it sounds good but it is a False addition to Paul’s Gospel Found In 1 Cor 15:1-4......I am assuming you intend it to mean “repenting of SINS”.....Sorrow for sins or the determination to never sin again may accompany or prompt one’s Salvation.....*IF* it leads to the type of “ Repentance” that really “ does” Save.....That would be Turning to God ( Repentance) as a Lost Sinner who puts His TOTAL Faith in the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ and the fact that Jesus died for his Sins.....These are the Essentials for Salvation.....Read Galatians.....Adding to these essentials with ANYTHiNG, and I don’t care how “ Holy” it sounds ( conquering sin sure “ sounds” good) —- it will cause you to “ Fall From Grace” .....God does not want anybody tinkering with the True Gospel that Jesus gave to Paul.....
The person that did not believe the Gospel, But later CHANGED HIS MIND and came to Believe it—- THAT is the “ Repentance” that plays a part in Salvation .....”Repent” comes from the Greek Word “metaneo”..... it literally means “ mind change”...... Change you mind about Jesus if you don’t think you Need Him for your Salvation.....that will get the job done....
Close but no cigar.....that “choose to repent” thingy? .....it sounds good but it is a False addition to Paul’s Gospel Found In 1 Cor 15:1-4......I am assuming you intend it to mean “repenting of SINS”.....Sorrow for sins or the determination to never sin again may accompany or prompt one’s Salvation.....*IF* it leads to the type of “ Repentance” that really “ does” Save.....That would be Turning to God ( Repentance) as a Lost Sinner who puts His TOTAL Faith in the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ and the fact that Jesus died for his Sins.....These are the Essentials for Salvation.....Read Galatians.....Adding to these essentials with ANYTHiNG, and I don’t care how “ Holy” it sounds ( conquering sin sure “ sounds” good) —- it will cause you to “ Fall From Grace” .....God does not want anybody tinkering with the True Gospel that Jesus gave to Paul.....
The person that did not believe the Gospel, But later CHANGED HIS MIND and came to Believe it—- THAT is the “ Repentance” that plays a part in Salvation .....”Repent” comes from the Greek Word “metaneo”..... it literally means “ mind change”...... Change you mind about Jesus if you don’t think you Need Him for your Salvation.....that will get the job done....
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You may not get very far with your version of "Grace" because you are neglecting the need to deal with being *lawful* in Christianity. There are many, many, many verses dealing with the Christian's need to be *righteous!*
So although I agree that Christ alone did the work of redemption I cannot agree that there is no need to be righteous. There is a difference between being righteous to do the work of redemption and being righteous out of obedience to Christ.
One thing I'm sure we both agree on--we are not called upon, as Christians, to observe the Law of Moses. For one thing, only Jews were given this Law--only Israel was given this Law. But secondly, the Law was broken as a covenant. The Jewish People failed, as a a nation, to even keep the Law. They broke the Law before the Babylonian Captivity. And they broke the Law again when they rejected Christ.
So the covenant of the Law of Moses is death. As you indicated, it is "nailed to the cross," together with its condemnation of Man universally. The Law of Moses merely applied the sentence, in graphic detail, of the Garden of Eden story to Israel, so that they would fully understand that salvation comes by mercy apart from the Law.
When Christians here post what Jesus said about keeping the Law of Moses they forget that Jesus, in his earthly ministry, was speaking primarily to Israel and in a period when they were still under the Law. Now that the covenant of Law has been broken, we are under a new Law, having been redeemed by the atonement of Christ. We are freed from the Law of condemnation, such as was under the Law of Moses, and now are under a Law of Liberty, in which we need no longer fear condemnation, but can be righteous and obey God without fear of damnation.
Our best “ Righteousness” is “ filthy rags” in the eyes of God......The Righteousness that counts is the one IMPUTED to you when you become a Believer.....
Once God has made us “ New Creations” with “ New Hearts” our new Love for God will make us “ want” to be Obedient .....get God's Spirit in you by Resting in the Gospel .....That will spur a love for God within you.....Love for God is the Engine that drives Obedience.....Rest in the Gospel, The Finished Work Of The Cross as God ordered us to in Hebrews 3 and 4 and everything else will follow......
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I have absolutely no problem with the idea that Christ in us makes us *want* to do righteousness! As I've been saying, all true virtue comes from God.
But I think you misrepresent the passage that speaks of "righteousness being filthy rags." It is *not* saying that nobody can be righteous. This would directly contradict all of the biblical passages that speak of the saints being righteous.
What I believe this passage is really saying is that the autonomous man cannot use a facade of righteousness to cover up inward rebellion against God. Routine offerings at the temple don't impress God if inside the worshiper is a wolf. Perfunctory rituals do not impress God if on the side these same people are coveting other people's property, and even taking them.
This is what "righteousness" refers to--a hollow form of righteousness--not the real thing. It is *all* forms of righteousness that are external that God rejects--not genuine righteousness!
When the Bible says "no one is righteous," it is talking only about those who try to use the appearance of righteousness to cover up their sin. Nobody who does this is any better than someone clothed in filthy rags, because these are not real works of righteousness, but rather, a facade.
This is an admission that all men, who rely on their own works, cannot impress God. Their works must be inspired by divine virtue, as you say. But it is not saying people cannot be righteous at all. All men have access to divine virtue, because that's how God made them. But nobody is righteous apart from Him. And sin has separated all men from God, which is the point Paul is trying to make.
All men must return to God for both righteousness and redemption. Otherwise, they remain filthy.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The problem we have with Progressive Christianity is you correctly say that new creations have new hearts and want to be obedient, but then you turn right around and say 'Christians' who don't want to be obedient and who live in their old lives on purpose as a matter of lifestyle are new creations too. That's a contradiction.
You know when it's right to say that Christians want to do this and be that, but then you turn right around and say Christians can not want to do this and not be this. That's a contradiction. The Bible in no way defends this, for John says the person who lives in his old life is a child of the devil and is not saved.
"Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God... 1 John 3:9-10
Progressive Christianity has been teaching the church to ignore this in the Bible and says that 'Christians' who go on sinning and do not practice righteousness are born of God and are not children of the devil. Progressive Christianity has ruined the church by throwing the doors of the church open to millions of people who are deceived into thinking they can be saved and live in sin. They only deceive themselves. The Bible is clear that you can not be a saved person and live in sin. Progressive Christianity says you can.
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Nice post, but I just think that although people can be “Moral” , and that is the type of “ Righteous ness” that I believe you are speaking of.....The “ Morality” Of the best man that ever lived is STILL “ filthy rags” when compared to Perfection—- and Perfection is what God demands to be fit for Heaven....
That type of Perfect Righteousness is a type that can only be IMPUTED to a person, through their Faith in Jesus Christ.....
Being Moral is much better than being Immoral.....Hell will be full of “ moral” men....God is not looking for moral men.....He us looking for DEAD men, Dead in Trespasses and sin , who are aware of their lost condition, admit their lost condition and turn to God with Faith in Jesus to alleviate their Lost Condition....
Let’s all strive to be as good as we can be.....be obedient to God and He will bless you for it—— Just don be confused and think you get “Saved” because of it....Faith is what Saves....Faith Plus Nothing...it really is “ NOTHING but the Blood”.....
Greetings Ferris ....nice to see you posting again..
The vital thing in our lives is to become a Child Of God....One can become that child by Resting in the Gospel Of 1Cor15:14.....once you are God's Child , you are a member of the Body Of Christ —- you are Sealed and secure and as far as Salvation is concerned —- you are UNTOUCHABLE ! ( “you have already passed from Death to Life and you shall NEVER come under Condemnation” )
Once this is settled, God does not make us robots with no freedom.....we are Free to be wise, obedient Children and be rewarded accordingly , or we can choose to be foolish ,rebellious children and suffer the consequences .....for better or worse, we are STILL Children of God...
If Christians no longer sin, why does Paul talk about Believers “ Caught up in Sin” ( Gal 6) or being tormented by the Sins that “ So EASILY beset us” ? Why has God set up the frequently mentioned program of CHASTISEMENT for Believers ? Is God in the business of Punishing Children That no longer Sin?
Common sense ,insight and honesty all point to the ability for any Child Of God to commit sins....I’m a Saved man and I have been for many years .....I sin every day....if not in deed , I do in thought.....just like everybody else on this planet—— Saved or Unsaved.....I do the same things with my sins that God does— I put them on the Cross and leave them there and try not to whine when my Father has to “ blow the whistle” on me, and give me any Chastisement I am due .....given to make me into a better “ image” of His Son....always thanking Him for His Grace.....
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