Temples

[daq]

Hi daq: Great thread. Remember, in parables and allegory, a few can see it and most can't see it. Also, recognize when triggered by the words of another that cause a reaction in you. That means there's something in your temple that can be cleared out, allowing space for a response of Spirit.

Hi veteran: that's not talking about the "True Spiritual Temple of Christ Jesus". YOU are the temple. Know ye not that you are the temple of God. It's talking about the temple that you are, that a human being is.

So, just allow for that possibility. Then reread the passage in 2 Thes 2. It is wondrously illuminating. We all come in to this earth with the old carnal man of sin sitting on the throne in our temple. One needs to fall away (step back) from his carnal thinking mind to be able to see that thing, that false counterfeit self, that's been running the show for so long. When you see that, then the day of Christ being enthroned in your temple can happen for you.

The Kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)

Out of the self-life and into Life; out of the wilderness and into the promised land; out of the old man and into the new; out of the world mind and into Christ; out of a concept about god and into communion with the Father; out of mental activity and into Spirit; out of the world and into the kingdom of the Father, here, now.

True through and through including your signature! . . .

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

NONE of the Greek texts have 'ou' in the Matt.24:4 verse.

By your interpretation of the Matt.24:2 phrase you cannot imply the Matt.24:4 has 'ou' in it to make it a negative that does not exist in the Greek there.

But it's apparent that's what you're trying to do, which makes this verse have a non-existing negative...

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."
(KJV)

There is NO 'ou' in that above verse. Christ's command to "Take heed" is a correct translation from the Greek.

Take heart, brother, the answer is simpler than that. Daq is suggesting that "Blepoo" means "I take heed" or "I pay attention to." It actually just means "I see" or "I look at."

Matthew 24:2 simply is saying "Do you not see all these things?" or "Are you not looking at all these things?" while Matthew 24:4 is saying "See no one deceives you" or "Look at no one deceiving you."

He's using the word as though it was the word "prosechoo" which literally means "I hold the mind" and is translated as "I take heed," or "horaoo" which literally means "I stare at" or "I discern clearly" and means "I concentrate on," or even as "greegoreuoo" which means "I guard" and is often translated as "I watch."

Just leave the word as "I see" or "I look at" and you're fine in your translation.

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran: that's not talking about the "True Spiritual Temple of Christ Jesus". YOU are the temple. Know ye not that you are the temple of God. It's talking about the temple that you are, that a human being is.

So, just allow for that possibility. Then reread the passage in 2 Thes 2. It is wondrously illuminating. We all come in to this earth with the old carnal man of sin sitting on the throne in our temple. One needs to fall away (step back) from his carnal thinking mind to be able to see that thing, that false counterfeit self, that's been running the show for so long. When you see that, then the day of Christ being enthroned in your temple can happen for you.

I very well realize NT Scripture about the spiritual temple idea applied to us believers on Christ Jesus. But that is not a proper application of forcing it into the 2 Thess.2:3-4 Scripture which is about one who brings corruption to a temple by sitting in it and exalting himself as God, which is specifically what that Scripture is about, even to the point that it is to cause "strong delusion" upon the deceived. It is not a carnal choice or way to think that decides that interpretation, it's a Scriptural interpretation based on the OT prophets, our Lord Jesus Christ's prophecy about it, and His Apostle's teachings about the end.

Spiritualizing that 2 Thess.2:3-4 Scripture into a spiritual temple idea is actually a way to get totally away from Apostle Paul's Message of warning there. That I cannot do and remain true to God's Word.

Someone who wants to Biblically understand more of what Paul was driving at with that false one coming to sit in a real physical temple, pointing to one built in Jerusalem for the end, should look more closely at the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation about the coming false one, and especially our Lord Jesus' warnings in Matthew 24 about the setting up of the abomination of desolation idol involving a physical temple in Jerusalem. Then take a look at what the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are planning to do in our days, i.e., build a third temple in Jerusalem.

 

[daq]

Shalom, veteran.


Take heart, brother, the answer is simpler than that. Daq is suggesting that "Blepoo" means "I take heed" or "I pay attention to." It actually just means "I see" or "I look at."

Matthew 24:2 simply is saying "Do you not see all these things?" or "Are you not looking at all these things?" while Matthew 24:4 is saying "See no one deceives you" or "Look at no one deceiving you."

He's using the word as though it was the word "prosechoo" which literally means "I hold the mind" and is translated as "I take heed," or "horaoo" which literally means "I stare at" or "I discern clearly" and means "I concentrate on," or even as "greegoreuoo" which means "I guard" and is often translated as "I watch."

Just leave the word as "I see" or "I look at" and you're fine in your translation.

There's no such thing as an "Ignore" button anymore, but I'm ignoring you from now on. Say what you will. Water off a duck's back, man.

For how long did you keep your word the last time you made similar statements?

Looks like you were able to keep me on ignore for the fullness of about 18 days this time, (6+6+6). :lol:

Are we to believe that the disciples came to Yeshua for to show him the workmanship of the Hieron-Temple and its magnificent stones, (re: Mark 13:1-2) and then the Master turns and asks them if they "do not see the stones" which they just asked him to look at? That interpretation is redundant and makes the Master to look somewhat foolish in his remarks. In other words, rather than an interrogative-question, [?] the Master exclaims [!] to them "PAY NO HEED!" to this Hieron-Temple building made with hands because verily there shall not be left one stone upon another which shall not have been thrown down. This understanding completely alters the inflection, perception, and supernal meaning of the entire Olivet Discourse. Thus the Olivet Discourse and all of the supernal signs given by the Master have nothing to do with the Hieron-Temple building or any other temple-building made with the hands of man.

Apparently yes, daq, that is exactly what Retrobyter expects everyone to believe! Apparently Retrobyter believes that the disciples came to Yeshua so as to show him the beautiful workmanship of the stones of the temple building made with hands. And Yeshua says to them, (according to Retrobyter) "Do you not see these stones?"

This likewise appears to be exactly the kind of thing that Retrobyter himself would do so I suppose it is no wonder that he would think that the Master thinks just like he does. Retrobyter did you see the image files of the beautiful amethyst stones posted on the first page of this thread?

Go ahead and ask me now if I do not see them after I just showed them to you.
Show everyone how ridiculous and redundant your hypothesis really is . . . :lol:

 

[ajdiamond]

But that is not a proper application of forcing it into the 2 Thess.2:3-4 Scripture which is about one who brings corruption to a temple by sitting in it and exalting himself as God,

Well, that is a rather charged characterization. Nothing is forced; it's either literal or allegorical. You would probably allow that the passage is either about a physical temple and should be taken literally; or, that it is an allegory. Given that a temple is explicitly given as a metaphor for a human, you have to allow for the possibility.

Look at it again, allowing for the allegorical possibility, and you might see some things anew. And in the looking, notice the activity in your mind and how quickly it reacts with religious doctrine and tradition and distraction. There is a thing in the temple of a man, that is enmity against God (Rom 8:7) and cannot know spiritual things (1Cor 2:14). One must fall away from that thing, gain a separation, see it in all it's false glory, and rest back into Christ within. That is what the passage is about for those with ears to hear and few there be that find it. For the masses, it's about a literal temple.

 

[daq]

Well, that is a rather charged characterization. Nothing is forced; it's either literal or allegorical. You would probably allow that the passage is either about a physical temple and should be taken literally; or, that it is an allegory. Given that a temple is explicitly given as a metaphor for a human, you have to allow for the possibility.

Look at it again, allowing for the allegorical possibility, and you might see some things anew. And in the looking, notice the activity in your mind and how quickly it reacts with religious doctrine and tradition and distraction. There is a thing in the temple of a man, that is enmity against God (Rom 8:7) and cannot know spiritual things (1Cor 2:14). One must fall away from that thing, gain a separation, see it in all it's false glory, and rest back into Christ within. That is what the passage is about for those with ears to hear and few there be that find it. For the masses, it's about a literal temple.

And the Lord said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, (and the man is the land) which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. There is a body psuchikon and there is a body pneumatikon; there is a body earthly, and there is a body heavenly: If therefore your right eye is utterly darkened pluck him out and cast him from you! For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The lamp of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single-focused, thy whole body shall be full of light on the inside. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

Looks like you were able to keep me on ignore for the fullness of about 18 days this time, (6+6+6). :lol:



Apparently yes, daq, that is exactly what Retrobyter expects everyone to believe! Apparently Retrobyter believes that the disciples came to Yeshua so as to show him the beautiful workmanship of the stones of the temple building made with hands. And Yeshua says to them, (according to Retrobyter) "Do you not see these stones?"

This likewise appears to be exactly the kind of thing that Retrobyter himself would do so I suppose it is no wonder that he would think that the Master thinks just like he does. Retrobyter did you see the image files of the beautiful amethyst stones posted on the first page of this thread?

Go ahead and ask me now if I do not see them after I just showed them to you.
Show everyone how ridiculous and redundant your hypothesis really is . . . :lol:

Talking to yourself is not a good sign, bro'.

Okay, I'll ask: Do you see these beautiful amethyst stones? Did you notice that they are found in geodes? Did you take note of how MANY of them are found in each sphere? Have you taken the time to notice that their crystal structure is trigonal-trapezohedral? Have you scratched them or broken them to see that they are triboluminescent? Have you shown ultraviolet light on them to notice that they are fluorescent? Have you compared them to other minerals to see that they have a hardness of 7 and are therefore forms of quartz? Have you tested them submerged in water to notice that they have a density of 2.65?

His students had just given HIM the tour, showing him all the donated gems and gifts on the stones of the walls. Yeshua` was simply saying, "Take a good look at it all! It's all going <POOF>!" Redundancy? Hardly. He was reinforcing what they had just shown HIM! He was getting them to take it all in at one time and fix it in their memory for posterity for it would all be gone in 40 years!

Redundancy. I kick myself every time I even PEEK at your nonsense. Oh, and I DID discover that I can ignore your posts and am doing just that. I will answer and respond to others, but I'm going to limit how much I actually write to you. Only where you are attacking others, like veteran here, will I pipe up, but I will try to limit my responses to that person.

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq.


Talking to yourself is not a good sign, bro'.

You said you were going to ignore me and you did not actually address me in your previous post as you have now. :lol:

Oh, and I DID discover that I can ignore your posts and am doing just that. I will answer and respond to others, but I'm going to limit how much I actually write to you. Only where you are attacking others, like veteran here, will I pipe up, but I will try to limit my responses to that person.

Poor double blind Bar-Timaeus son of Timaeus cannot discern who it was who called who a blasphemer.

Okay, I'll ask: Do you see these beautiful amethyst stones?

That is completely false. Can you not even stick to your own interpretation from one post to the next?
Here is what you stated above which included the "ou" ("not" or "do not") that you have now conveniently omitted:

Shalom, veteran.

Take heart, brother, the answer is simpler than that. Daq is suggesting that "Blepoo" means "I take heed" or "I pay attention to." It actually just means "I see" or "I look at."

Matthew 24:2 simply is saying "Do you not see all these things?" or "Are you not looking at all these things?"

Is this not the very thing which veteran has attempted to accuse me of doing? You omitted the "not" because you know how ridiculous it would be to ask me what you suggest that Yeshua says in the text to his disciples. Matthew 24:2 INCLUDES the negative "ou" as in "Ou blepete" which has now been discussed over three pages. If you were going to ask me the same thing that you say is in the text then why did you alter the statement from what you said it was previously above? If you were true to what you have already stated then you should have said: "Do you not see these stones?" And as I said, that would be ridiculous and you know it, because I was the one who showed you the stones to begin with.

Why are you attempting to cause confusion? My God is not the author of such confusion.

Matthew 24:2 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
2. Ho de apokritheis eipen autois, "Ou blepete tauta panta? Amen lego humin, ou meafethe hode lithos epi lithon hos ou kataluthesetai!"^

Matthew 24:4 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
4. Kai apokritheis ho Iesous eipen autois, "Blepete me-tis humas planese!

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:2 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα; ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:2 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα; ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:2 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]
ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα; ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:2 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἴπεν αὐτοῖς, Οὐ βλέπετε πάντα ταῦτα; Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον, ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:2 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· Οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα; ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:2 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition
ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα; ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον, ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:2 Greek NT: Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Οὐ βλέπετε πάντα ταῦτα; ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον, ὃς οὐ μὴ καταλυθήσεται.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:2 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Οὐ βλέπετε πάντα ταῦτα ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ μὴ καταλυθήσεται

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-2.htm

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:4 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς πλανήσῃ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:4 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς πλανήσῃ·

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:4 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς πλανήσῃ·

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:4 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἴπεν αὐτοῖς, Βλέπετε, μή τις ὑμᾶς πλανήσῃ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:4 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· Βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς πλανήσῃ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:4 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς πλανήσῃ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:4 Greek NT: Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Βλέπετε, μή τις ὑμᾶς πλανήσῃ

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:4 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς πλανήσῃ·

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-4.htm

Both texts have exactly what I quoted on Page One of this thread:

Matthew 24:2 ~ "ou blepete" -- "Do not take heed"
Matthew 24:4 ~ "blepete" -- "Take heed"

Am I a blasphemer just because you care not to actually read what I have written? I trow not! :lol:

You are confused and continue making false accusations. It is plain for all to see that I said no such thing as what you now accuse me of once again. You either did not read or did not comprehend the point being made in the OP which is not that Matthew 24:4 is incorrect but that Matthew 24:2 should have included the negative which it does not in many translations. But why should I continue repeating myself to one who already has what I wrote on the previous page and in addition now has quoted from it again and still refuses to see what is written there?

Again, the problem is not with Matthew 24:4 but rather with Matthew 24:2

Matthew 24:1-4 KJV
1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2. And Jesus said unto them, [Ou blepete tauta panta] See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, [Blepete me-tis humas planese!] Take heed that no man deceive you.

Matthew 24:1-4 ~ What It Really Says:
1. And Yeshua went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2. And Yeshua said unto them; [Ou blepete tauta panta] Take no heed of all these things! verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4. And Yeshua answered and said unto them, [Blepete me-tis humas planese!] Take heed that no man deceive you.

Matthew 24:1-2 paraphrased says: PAY NO HEED TO THESE PHYSICAL BUILDINGS AND STONES OF THE TEMPLE!
The Words that the Father speaks through the Son are Spirit and they are Life.
The Olivet Discourse has nothing to do with stone temples made with hands.

Could it be that your entire Matthew 24 flesh paradigm is based in a misreading of the text and thus complete falsehood? :lol:

Romans 16:17-18 KJV
17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Romans 8:5-8 KJV
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 1:21-25 KJV
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Titus 1:11-16 KJV
11. Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14. Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Philippians 3:17-19 KJV
17. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19. Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things).

Jude 1:8-16 KJV
8. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

2 Peter 2:18-22 KJV
18. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he traverses through arid places like a desert nomad wanderer, seeking rest, and finds none. Then says he, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he finds it vacant, having been swept out, and adorned. Then he goes and associates with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Thus shall it be also unto this wicked fourth generation of the man. And when the branch of that fourth generation fig becomes tender and begins to put forth his foliage then the time of harvest will be at hand. Then shall all the holy ones know for a certain who is truly "saved" and who is a twice dead reprobate-castaway fish.

Matthew 3:7-12 KJV
7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 12:33-34 KJV
33. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Proverbs 30:11-14 KJV
11. There is a generation [1] that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
12. There is a generation [2] that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
13. There is a generation, [3] O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
14. There is a generation, [4] whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

Daniel 7:7 KJV
7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Matthew 12:38-45 KJV
38. Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, [2] and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, [3] and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation [4].

Matthew 24:32-35 KJV
32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

---

Why does he find the house swept and garnished?
I'd like to see you talk more about Luke 11:24-26

Perhaps the house is swept to give a clean appearance and adorned with idols because Truth is not allowed inside?

These kinds of idols and idolatry inside the house:

Ezekiel 8:7-12 KJV
7. And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.
8. Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.
9. And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.
10. So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
11. And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
12. Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The Lord seeth us not; the Lord hath forsaken the earth.

Every carnal man in the chambers of his mind which are "the chambers of his imagery" in the passage above. The same are those who defile and pollute the beauty of his ornament, the "secret place" of God, which is the holy temple God, which every man is created to be:

Ezekiel 7:20-25 KJV
20. As for the beauty of his ornament, he set it in majesty: but they made the images of their abominations and of their detestable things therein: therefore have I set it far from them.
21. And I will give it into the hands of the strangers for a prey, and to the wicked of the earth for a spoil; and they shall pollute it.
22. My face will I turn also from them, and they shall pollute my secret place: for the robbers shall enter into it, and defile it.
23. Make a chain: for the land is full of bloody crimes, and the city is full of violence.
24. Wherefore I will bring the worst of the heathen, and they shall possess their houses: I will also make the pomp of the strong to cease; and their holy places shall be defiled.
25. Destruction cometh; and they shall seek peace, and there shall be none.

The "worst of the heathen" are the Chaldeans who come to possess houses not their own:

Habakkuk 1:4-11 KJV
4. Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
5. Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6. For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
7. They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
8. Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.
9. They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
10. And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it.
11. Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.

Paul quotes this passage in Acts with the same warning:

Acts 13:40-41 KJV
40. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41. Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

And this is of course because the man is "the house" and the warning therefore still applies . . .

 

[ajdiamond]

Retrobyter and veteran:

Here's a challenge for you. Briefly, in a paragraph or less, give the meaning/interpretation of this phrase:

Luke 12:40 ...the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

 

[veteran]

Retrobyter and veteran:

Here's a challenge for you. Briefly, in a paragraph or less, give the meaning/interpretation of this phrase:

Luke 12:40 ...the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

And to that I will quote our Lord Jesus...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)

Thus staying on watch for the events leading up to our Lord Jesus' second coming per His command, has nothing to do with trying to set a date for the day of His coming, for no man can know the day. But we are... to be on watch with the signs leading up to His coming as He commanded us, like here in Rev.3 with the Church of Sardis and also in the latter part of Matthew 24. Apostle Paul gave that same warning in 1 Thess.5:6.

Well, that is a rather charged characterization. Nothing is forced; it's either literal or allegorical. You would probably allow that the passage is either about a physical temple and should be taken literally; or, that it is an allegory. Given that a temple is explicitly given as a metaphor for a human, you have to allow for the possibility.

Trying to force the idea of the physical temple of 2 Thess.2:4 that the false one comes to sit in and play God as being about the spiritual temple idea of Eph.2 is not a "charged characterization".

It's simple English grammar and staying within the prophetic parameters of God's Word, because there are other parallels in Scripture about that event (like in the Book of Daniel, in Revelation, and in our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse). It's all those other parallels to the coming of a false one that will exalt himself as God in Jerusalem involving a physical temple, for the end, which determines that.

I've already stated the main reason why it could never..., ever..., be about the spiritual temple idea of Ephesians 2.
Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(KJV)

That spiritual temple, which we as believers and followers of Jesus Christ are, is built upon the "foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone". Are you telling me that... can be corrupted? That's a very specific Scripture point, because our Lord Jesus Christ Himself would have to be included in that corruption.

But have there been corrupt individuals within Christ's Body? Yes. But they are simply cut off from the true spiritual temple by their corruptions. Same applies to any antichrist, for the spiritual temple idea is higher than any structure or system of man on earth.

 

[daq]

Trying to force the idea of the physical temple of 2 Thess.2:4 that the false one comes to sit in and play God as being about the spiritual temple idea of Eph.2 is not a "charged characterization".

It's simple English grammar and staying within the prophetic parameters of God's Word, because there are other parallels in Scripture about that event (like in the Book of Daniel, in Revelation, and in our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse). It's all those other parallels to the coming of a false one that will exalt himself as God in Jerusalem involving a physical temple, for the end, which determines that.

I've already stated the main reason why it could never..., ever..., be about the spiritual temple idea of Ephesians 2.
Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(KJV)

That spiritual temple, which we as believers and followers of Jesus Christ are, is built upon the "foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone". Are you telling me that... can be corrupted? That's a very specific Scripture point, because our Lord Jesus Christ Himself would have to be included in that corruption.

But have there been corrupt individuals within Christ's Body? Yes. But they are simply cut off from the true spiritual temple by their corruptions. Same applies to any antichrist, for the spiritual temple idea is higher than any structure or system of man on earth.

Your hypothesis is simply not true because it is simply not possible for the Thessalonians to be on watch for what you suggest the temple means in this passage. Paul clearly says "the temple of God" and we know from manifold passages which temple he means when he writes "temple of God" in all his writings. The temple of God are his people and not the temple building made with hands at physical Jerusalem of below.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-5 KJV
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

1 John 4:1-3 KJV
1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7-11 KJV
7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

How is it possible that the Thessalonians can be on watch and on guard so that no one deceive them if they are supposed to be watching the physical temple in Jerusalem? Do you have any idea where Thessalonike is located? In those days by the time they would have received word of a literal man entering into the literal temple at Jerusalem a large portion of what you consider to be "the great tribulation" would have already come to pass. It really is ludicrous to suggest that Paul is telling the Thessalonians to be on guard watching the physical temple at Jerusalem. The understanding of the passage must first and foremost be applicable to those to whom it was written. Then it must apply to those who would come after them in the same way it applied to them. This is only possible if the anthropon-man of lawlessness and son of perdition is an unclean wicked spirit.

It would not have been possible for the Thessalonians to be keeping an eye on the temple at Jerusalem of below.

 

[ENOCH2010]

daq let me see if I get what your saying

You're saying the Christians that believe, and have accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour , having Jesus clean them from all evil within. Can have their body taken over by an evil spirit, you are saying that an evil spirit can remove Jesus from within a person and take up abode in place of Jesus. That doesn't sound like the promise of eternal security that is written about in the Bible I read.

 

[daq]

daq let me see if I get what your saying

You're saying the Christians that believe, and have accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour , having Jesus clean them from all evil within. Can have their body taken over by an evil spirit, you are saying that an evil spirit can remove Jesus from within a person and take up abode in place of Jesus. That doesn't sound like the promise of eternal security that is written about in the Bible I read.

Finally someone is beginning to understand the gravity of the consequences of these things:

Prove to me by the Scripture that you have been cleansed from "all evil within" as you say.
Prove to me that you have Yeshua in you to begin with because if you do he cannot be removed.
And if you have Yeshua inside you then can you please explain to us when he arrived in your case?
And if Yeshua has already come to you then how can you say that you are still awaiting his return?
And if he returns in a glorified body then what is going to happen to you since he is already dwelling in you?
Do you not have to die before he can return in his own physical body?
Are you not currently his body as part of the great congregation?

 

[ajdiamond]

Retrobyter and veteran:

Here's a challenge for you. Briefly, in a paragraph or less, give the meaning/interpretation of this phrase:

Luke 12:40 ...the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Thus staying on watch for the events leading up to our Lord Jesus' second coming per His command, has nothing to do with trying to set a date for the day of His coming, for no man can know the day. But we are... to be on watch with the signs leading up to His coming as He commanded us, like here in Rev.3 with the Church of Sardis and also in the latter part of Matthew 24. Apostle Paul gave that same warning in 1 Thess.5:6....

...It's simple English grammar....

Hi veteran:

I question why you did not give the literal interpretation of that passage? Taken literally, that passage speaks of a very beneficial key to one's spiritual walk. Some could stare at that passage for 10 minutes and never see or consider what it is literally saying: they'd just get a steady mental stream of theology and tradition and pet cows and 3rd hand information interfering with seeing it literally.

Care to try again?

PS. daq, thank you for post 71. Very nice.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, ajdiamond.

Retrobyter and veteran:

Here's a challenge for you. Briefly, in a paragraph or less, give the meaning/interpretation of this phrase:

Luke 12:40 ...the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Sure, it's simple enough. The Son of man (Yeshua` haMashiach) will come when one is not expecting Him to come. He will take people by surprise. Even if they say they are "expecting Him to come at any moment," the reality is that He will still spring on us without warning. Even those who claim they are "expecting Him" will likely NOT be prepared or prepared enough for His arrival, even if they mean well.

To explain this, Yeshua` expanded upon the "parable" in verses 42-46 and then explained that it wasn't just a parable in verses 47-48!


Luke 12:41-48
41 Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?"
42 The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47 "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

NIV

Don't you yet understand? When Yeshua` returns He is coming back as a KING! One of the jobs of a King is to be a Judge, as well, just as Daveed (David) and Shlomo (Solomon) were! Some, even here in this forum, make the mistake of thinking that the "Judgment Seat of Christ" will only be "in Heaven during the seven years of Tribulation," but the Scriptures tell me that HIS WHOLE REIGN will be characterized by His ability to judge! The judgment of a King in a Monarchy is the "Supreme Court" of His Kingdom! Minor matters are delegated to lesser judges, but matters of importance to the Kingdom and matters of State as well as difficult matters that the lesser judges can't handle are escalated to the King! It won't be "in Heaven" where He judges; He will judge RIGHT HERE ON THIS EARTH, AS PROMISED!

 

[ajdiamond]

Shalom, ajdiamond.

Sure, it's simple enough. The Son of man (Yeshua` haMashiach) will come when one is not expecting Him to come. He will take people by surprise. Even if they say they are "expecting Him to come at any moment," the reality is that He will still spring on us without warning. Even those who claim they are "expecting Him" will likely NOT be prepared or prepared enough for His arrival, even if they mean well. (snip)

Hi retrobyter, Thanks for responding.

As to your interpretation of the passage, why do you also forgo it's literal meaning? My point about this verse is the last two words, "think not". You take this to mean "when one is not expecting Him to come."

But that is not what it is saying. Look at it literally and it's related to "take no thought" (Mat ch 6 and 10, Luke 12) and "bringing into captivity every thought" (2Cor 10:5) and "Be still and know" (Ps 46:10). Now do you see what it is literally saying?

See, Christ is in you. To KNOW this experientally one needs to cease from engaging the natural, egoic, reactive, thinking-thinking-thinking, hamster-wheel carnal mind and be still. One needs to "think not". The kingdom of God is within you and you can't take the train of thought to get there; you can't think your way there. When one takes no thought and knows himself by experience and observation, when one turns from that natural mind toward the kingdom of God within him, then that one is on the way to the Son of Man coming in him at an hour when he is not engaged in mentation.

Peace.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq!

Finally someone is beginning to understand the gravity of the consequences of these things:

Prove to me by the Scripture that you have been cleansed from "all evil within" as you say.
Prove to me that you have Yeshua in you to begin with because if you do he cannot be removed.
And if you have Yeshua inside you then can you please explain to us when he arrived in your case?
And if Yeshua has already come to you then how can you say that you are still awaiting his return?
And if he returns in a glorified body then what is going to happen to you since he is already dwelling in you?
Do you not have to die before he can return in his own physical body?
Are you not currently his body as part of the great congregation?

FINALLY! Now we're getting to the heart of the matter!

Allow me to answer your questions: First, the terminology of the question is slightly off. One is NOT truly cleansed from all evil within, but one CAN be truly cleansed from all sin and its consequences!

1 John 1:5-2:14
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
KJV

John 3:1-21
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
KJV

Rav Sha'uwl (the Apostle Paul) said, however, in Romans 7,

Romans 7:14-8:39
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not (I don't want to do): for what I would (what I want to do), that do I not (I don't do); but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not (I don't want to do), I consent unto the law (Torah) that it (the Torah) is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would (I want to do) I do not: but the evil which I would not (which I don't want to do), that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who (as a matter of fact) walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (BORN AGAIN)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba (Daddy), Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope (confidence): but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
KJV

I DO have Yeshua`, or rather, the Spirit of the Messiah who is the Ruach haQodesh, within me and, you're right, He cannot be removed, or rather, He will not leave me nor forsake me (Heb. 13:5) because I am sealed to the Day of Redemption, the Day when our bodies are redeemed (Eph. 4:30).

He arrived in my case when I realized the horrible depth of my sin and the impossibility for me to do anything about it. That was the day I gave up trying to be "good enough" and came to Him for His mercy on my behalf. (Luke 18:9-14) That's when HE stepped in and did the impossible! He became my sin for me, even though He never knew sin of His own, and His death covered the law that says "the wages of sin is death." His death paid for my sin. And, in the process, I became His righteousness, that is, the righteousness of God IN Him, even though I knew only a life FULL of sin. It was through that TRANSFER in which He became my sin and I became His righteousness that I was justified by God! He DECLARED me "His righteousness" and DECLARED me "righteous," in spite of my sin! (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Psalm 32:1-2

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
KJV



Romans 4:4-8
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
KJV


I have the Spirit of the Messiah within me - the Ruach haQodesh - but He has promised to return physically and bodily! He has promised Isra'el to be their King and their Salvation, their Rescue, their Deliverer. He has promised to reign over the whole earth as God's Representative, haMelekh Malakhiym! These promises have NOT been kept, yet! These promises He WILL fulfill! These promises He SHALL fulfill! So, I await His Second Advent - His Second Coming - when He becomes the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!

When He comes in His glorified body - His TRANSFIGURED BODY - He will glow with the same glow that gave Moses' face its glow! We, too, are given new bodies at the same time, whether we have already died or not, for God is able to give us NEW PHYSICAL BODIES that are INCORRUPTIBLE, IMMORTAL, LIFE-GIVING, POWERFUL, GLOWING BODIES that BLAST AIR, not just BREATHE it! Spiritual doesn't mean "immaterial"; it means "BLASTING or BLOWING LIKE A HURRICANE!" They won't be bodies just gasping for each breath to maintain their strength; they will be POWERFUL bodies with the power to give life to others, just as the disciples were able to raise the dead when commissioned by Yeshua` to herald His arrival in the towns to which He would go! We, too, will glow, differing in glory from one another as the stars differ in glory from each other! His Spirit - the Ruach haQodesh - will remain within us as much as it remains in Him, for where can you go from the Spirit of God?!

We ARE His body to the world right now, but in the same sense as Rav Sha'uwl was telling the congregation in Korinth that they were members of His body and members of each other! We are here to help each other, to support one another, to love one another, to hurt for one another when they hurt, and to demonstrate to others the love of God in the Messiah! There's no contradiction; ... HOWEVER, this "body" is a dim shadow of what is to come for look at how most who call themselves "Christian" treat each other in most congregations! I've been to some where NO ONE has said a word to me other than to "welcome me" and shake my hand, even though I've been hurting! Where is the "love" there?! Fortunately, the Ruach haQodesh is always there as my Comforter, and HE is why I can say, "Water off a duck's back."

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran:

I question why you did not give the literal interpretation of that passage? Taken literally, that passage speaks of a very beneficial key to one's spiritual walk. Some could stare at that passage for 10 minutes and never see or consider what it is literally saying: they'd just get a steady mental stream of theology and tradition and pet cows and 3rd hand information interfering with seeing it literally.

Care to try again?

Not sure just which "passage" you're speaking of now. The Luke 12:40 verse maybe?


The underlined verse below is what you quoted in question to me. It of course goes within the context of these other verses our Lord Jesus said...
Luke 12:37-44
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
(KJV)


This verse below especially is about what I was saying, that we are to stay on watch for the signs of Christ's second coming, and it links to what He said in Rev.3:3 to those at the Church of Sardis:

Luke 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

Jesus gave that idea to be on watch for His coming in comparison to the watchman. So I don't know what all you're going on about what's literal and what's not about it. That Scripture is very easy to understand.

Now in 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul is giving the very same kind of warning, because what he was covering there was the subject of the times and the seasons leading up to Christ's second coming, admonishing us to remain sober and watching. And Paul gave that just after he had explained the events of Christ's second coming and our gathering in the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter, so he is merely continuing the subject of Christ's coming, but covering some of the signs part. And one of the main signs Paul gave in that 1 Thess.5 chapter is about the deceived saying, "Peace and safety", and then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. By that Paul is linking what the coming false one is to do per Dan.8, destroying using peace with craft prospering in his hand.

So by the time one gets to 2 Thess.2:3-4 about the false one coming to sit in a physical temple to play God and causing the strong delusion, then Paul covering these points of the times and the seasons leading up to Christ's return ought to be solid in the mind.

Hi retrobyter, Thanks for responding.

As to your interpretation of the passage, why do you also forgo it's literal meaning? My point about this verse is the last two words, "think not". You take this to mean "when one is not expecting Him to come."

But that is not what it is saying. Look at it literally and it's related to "take no thought" (Mat ch 6 and 10, Luke 12) and "bringing into captivity every thought" (2Cor 10:5) and "Be still and know" (Ps 46:10). Now do you see what it is literally saying?

See, Christ is in you. To KNOW this experientally one needs to cease from engaging the natural, egoic, reactive, thinking-thinking-thinking, hamster-wheel carnal mind and be still. One needs to "think not". The kingdom of God is within you and you can't take the train of thought to get there; you can't think your way there. When one takes no thought and knows himself by experience and observation, when one turns from that natural mind toward the kingdom of God within him, then that one is on the way to the Son of Man coming in him at an hour when he is not engaged in mentation.

Peace.

Is that what you're keying on, that "think not" phrase our Lord Jesus said?


The Matthew 24 version...
Matt 24:42-51
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Because our Lord Jesus commanded us to be on watch means we CAN follow (watch) the signs He gave leading up to His return. Even in Luke 21:28 He gave events to come to pass and then said, "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

That was what He was telling them (and us) to do with watching. We are to be like that "goodman of the house", which is the idea of a watchman staying up at night protecting the house from a thief breaking in. When a watchman does that, they don't know what time the thief will come, but still the watchman is ready and waiting to defend his house.

Matt.24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Our Lord Jesus even said that servat that watches will be blessed. Do you want to be blessed when our Lord Jesus comes? If so, then stay sober (spiritually) and on watch for the thief that comes in the night. He used the idea of His coming "as a thief" because it will indeed take many by surprise, but those are about the ones who do NOT watch. Apostle Paul taught that also in 1 Thess.5...

1Thes 5:4
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(KJV)

How will that day NOT overtake those in Christ Jesus "as a thief"? Simple, stay sober and on watch like the goodman of the house.


Here's what Jesus said about those who do NOT watch...
Matt.24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, 'My lord delayeth his coming';
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)


It's those NOT watching that fall to the ways of this world, which are NOT remaining sober and on watch, that all that happens to. That "weeping and gnashing of teeth" idea is what Jesus said about those who will be cast to the "outer darkness" with the wicked at His coming (Matt.8:11-12; Matt.22:13; Matt.25:30; Luke 13:28).


Now then, going deeper...

Obviously our Lord Jesus would not have warned us to stay on watch like the goodman of the house unless there is an event coming in the end that would take many by complete surprise when He does come.

We know per Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5:4 that Christ's coming is NOT to overtake us as a thief. That means His coming is NOT supposed to be a complete surprise to those who remain sober and on watch. It's really that simple.

Can we not understand by the signs He and His Apostles gave us just what the event is that could take many by surprise when He does come?

For someone that puts all the warning Scripture together in their minds about the end (to include the OT prophets), with the help of The Holy Spirit, I think it would be easy to know what that coming event will be. It's the very subject of the coming false messiah our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us of for the end. That is specifically what Paul's Message in 2 Thess.2:3-4 is about, which he later called a "strong delusion". We are to know, and to understand, that a false one is coming to Jerualem to play God, and the unbelievers will especially be subject to believing on that false one in place of God, even thinking he is God. What Antiochus IV did in 165 B.C. Jerusalem won't even touch that "strong delusion" the false one of 2 Thess.2 will create upon the whole world.

This is why Jesus said in Matt.24 that even His very elect would be deceived by that false one if it were possible (Matt.24:23-26).

That is exactly how Christ's coming will be "as a thief" upon many, i.e., those who allow themselves to be deceived into thinking the coming false messiah that comes first, is actually the True Messiah Jesus Christ. That first supernatural one coming will NOT be our Lord Jesus. And that's how the deceived will be completely and totally suprised when our Lord Jesus DOES... return thereafter, to destroy that false one with the brightness of His coming. That's who our Lord Jesus Christ's coming will take by surprise "as a thief", and it is specifically why... our Lord Jesus forewarned His servants to be on watch, unless... His coming take you "as a thief", as written right here...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(KJV)

 

[ENOCH2010]

Shalom, daq!


FINALLY! Now we're getting to the heart of the matter!

Allow me to answer your questions: First, the terminology of the question is slightly off. One is NOT truly cleansed from all evil within, but one CAN be truly cleansed from all sin and its consequences!

1 John 1:5-2:14
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
KJV

John 3:1-21
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
KJV

Rav Sha'uwl (the Apostle Paul) said, however, in Romans 7,

Romans 7:14-8:39
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not (I don't want to do): for what I would (what I want to do), that do I not (I don't do); but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not (I don't want to do), I consent unto the law (Torah) that it (the Torah) is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would (I want to do) I do not: but the evil which I would not (which I don't want to do), that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who (as a matter of fact) walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (BORN AGAIN)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba (Daddy), Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope (confidence): but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
KJV

I DO have Yeshua`, or rather, the Spirit of the Messiah who is the Ruach haQodesh, within me and, you're right, He cannot be removed, or rather, He will not leave me nor forsake me (Heb. 13:5) because I am sealed to the Day of Redemption, the Day when our bodies are redeemed (Eph. 4:30).

He arrived in my case when I realized the horrible depth of my sin and the impossibility for me to do anything about it. That was the day I gave up trying to be "good enough" and came to Him for His mercy on my behalf. (Luke 18:9-14) That's when HE stepped in and did the impossible! He became my sin for me, even though He never knew sin of His own, and His death covered the law that says "the wages of sin is death." His death paid for my sin. And, in the process, I became His righteousness, that is, the righteousness of God IN Him, even though I knew only a life FULL of sin. It was through that TRANSFER in which He became my sin and I became His righteousness that I was justified by God! He DECLARED me "His righteousness" and DECLARED me "righteous," in spite of my sin! (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Psalm 32:1-2

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
KJV



Romans 4:4-8
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
KJV


I have the Spirit of the Messiah within me - the Ruach haQodesh - but He has promised to return physically and bodily! He has promised Isra'el to be their King and their Salvation, their Rescue, their Deliverer. He has promised to reign over the whole earth as God's Representative, haMelekh Malakhiym! These promises have NOT been kept, yet! These promises He WILL fulfill! These promises He SHALL fulfill! So, I await His Second Advent - His Second Coming - when He becomes the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!

When He comes in His glorified body - His TRANSFIGURED BODY - He will glow with the same glow that gave Moses' face its glow! We, too, are given new bodies at the same time, whether we have already died or not, for God is able to give us NEW PHYSICAL BODIES that are INCORRUPTIBLE, IMMORTAL, LIFE-GIVING, POWERFUL, GLOWING BODIES that BLAST AIR, not just BREATHE it! Spiritual doesn't mean "immaterial"; it means "BLASTING or BLOWING LIKE A HURRICANE!" They won't be bodies just gasping for each breath to maintain their strength; they will be POWERFUL bodies with the power to give life to others, just as the disciples were able to raise the dead when commissioned by Yeshua` to herald His arrival in the towns to which He would go! We, too, will glow, differing in glory from one another as the stars differ in glory from each other! His Spirit - the Ruach haQodesh - will remain within us as much as it remains in Him, for where can you go from the Spirit of God?!

We ARE His body to the world right now, but in the same sense as Rav Sha'uwl was telling the congregation in Korinth that they were members of His body and members of each other! We are here to help each other, to support one another, to love one another, to hurt for one another when they hurt, and to demonstrate to others the love of God in the Messiah! There's no contradiction; ... HOWEVER, this "body" is a dim shadow of what is to come for look at how most who call themselves "Christian" treat each other in most congregations! I've been to some where NO ONE has said a word to me other than to "welcome me" and shake my hand, even though I've been hurting! Where is the "love" there?! Fortunately, the Ruach haQodesh is always there as my Comforter, and HE is why I can say, "Water off a duck's back."

Thanks Roy for helping me out with that reply. I wouldn't have the time to copy the scripture he requested.

daq contradicted his-self at least once in his reply to me which I will bring to light. He has said many times that the evil spirit that leaves a body can go out to find 7 more evil spirits and return, so that the man is worse now than before. I say when Jesus cleans a body of the evil within, that it stays clean forever. The evil one wont be returning. I'm not saying a person will live a sinless life after being born again, I'm saying a person has eternal security once he has excepted the fact that he can do nothing to earn his salvation, it is a free gift from God .

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, ajdiamond.

Hi retrobyter, Thanks for responding.

As to your interpretation of the passage, why do you also forgo it's literal meaning? My point about this verse is the last two words, "think not". You take this to mean "[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]when one is not expecting Him to come." [/SIZE]

But that is not what it is saying. Look at it literally and it's related to "take no thought" (Mat ch 6 and 10, Luke 12) and "bringing into captivity every thought" (2Cor 10:5) and "Be still and know" (Ps 46:10). Now do you see what it is literally saying?

See, Christ is in you. To KNOW this experientally one needs to cease from engaging the natural, egoic, reactive, thinking-thinking-thinking, hamster-wheel carnal mind and be still. One needs to "think not". The kingdom of God is within you and you can't take the train of thought to get there; you can't think your way there. When one takes no thought and knows himself by experience and observation, when one turns from that natural mind toward the kingdom of God within him, then that one is on the way to the Son of Man coming in him at an hour when he is not engaged in mentation.

Peace.

Here's the Greek of this verse:

Lukas 12:40
40 Kai humeis ginesthe hetoimoi, hoti hee hoora ou dokeite ho Huios tou Anthroopou erchetai.
The Greek New Testament (UBS)

40 Kai = 40 And/Also
humeis = you
ginesthe = be
hetoimoi, = ready,
hoti = because
hee = the
hoora = hour
ou = not
dokeite = you-think
ho = the
Huios = Son
tou = of-the
Anthroopou = Man
erchetai. = comes.

40 And/Also you be ready, because the hour not you-think the Son of-the Man comes.


This is not a POSITIVE "not-thinking"; it’s a NEGATIVE "not-thinking!" Consider the context. Yeshua`s point is not that they SHOULD stop thinking but that the unsuspecting, indifferent, and gullible person already HAS stopped thinking! He is not considering the cost of his actions!

Luke 12:37-48
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
KJV

Thus, the point of the context is ALWAYS TO EXPECT the Master's return! Don't become complacent and drop your guard! Don't become nonchalant and say, "I've got time," because THAT is the moment when the Master will return! It doesn't have anything to do with Yeshua`s instruction not to take any thought or concern for tomorrow or the needs of the body; He was talking about retaining alertness!

Shalom, ENOCH2010.

Thanks Roy for helping me out with that reply. I wouldn't have the time to copy the scripture he requested.

daq contradicted his-self at least once in his reply to me which I will bring to light. He has said many times that the evil spirit that leaves a body can go out to find 7 more evil spirits and return, so that the man is worse now than before. I say when Jesus cleans a body of the evil within, that it stays clean forever. The evil one wont be returning. I'm not saying a person will live a sinless life after being born again, I'm saying a person has eternal security once he has excepted the fact that he can do nothing to earn his salvation, it is a free gift from God .

You're welcome.

Also, you're absolutely right about "eternal security." If God's justification of us is all from Him and there's nothing we can do to earn His justification, then there's also nothing we can do to MAINTAIN God's justification of us; it's STILL all from Him! And, while we still have the same dilemma as did Paul, namely that we do the things we shouldn't and don't do the things we should, we now attempt to do the righteous things and avoid the evil out of love for God and His Son! When we've come to realize that it was for OUR sins that Yeshua` died on the cross - it was OUR sins that nailed Him to the cross - then why would we want to ADD to what He had to suffer on our behalf?! Yeshua` was God's own Beloved Son! Why would we want to ADD to God's pain?!

Anyway, I'm glad to see that we're still on the same page. Have a great day in Him!