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Ten Commandments......

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by setfree, Mar 11, 2009.

  1. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Are Christians required to obey the Ten Commandments? If so, then are we obligated to observe the Sabbath (the Fourth Commandment)? If we are obligated to observe the Sabbath, then does it need to be on Saturday like in the Old Testament, or is there a "Christian Sabbath" which has been changed to Sunday?
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 11 2009, 08:16 PM)
    Are Christians required to obey the Ten Commandments? If so, then are we obligated to observe the Sabbath (the Fourth Commandment)? If we are obligated to observe the Sabbath, then does it need to be on Saturday like in the Old Testament, or is there a "Christian Sabbath" which has been changed to Sunday?
    That's obvious setfree. You should know that. And no, the true Sabbath is not a day of the week.
     
  3. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    The passages (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 8:4-6, Ephesians 6:1-3, 1 Timothy 1:9-11, 20, and 1 John 3:15) demonstrate that nine of the Ten Commandments have counterparts in the New Testament, but notice that the Fourth Commandment (observing the Sabbath) is missing. There is no New Testament counterpart for the Fourth Commandment. The Sabbath has been completely canceled in Christ, and Christians are not required to observe it. However, some people are not convinced that the Sabbath observance has been canceled, and other people believe that Sunday is now the "Christian Sabbath," so what do you find in the Bible to supports these views?
     
  4. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 11 2009, 08:54 PM)
    The passages (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 8:4-6, Ephesians 6:1-3, 1 Timothy 1:9-11, 20, and 1 John 3:15) demonstrate that nine of the Ten Commandments have counterparts in the New Testament, but notice that the Fourth Commandment (observing the Sabbath) is missing. There is no New Testament counterpart for the Fourth Commandment. The Sabbath has been completely canceled in Christ, and Christians are not required to observe it. However, some people are not convinced that the Sabbath observance has been canceled, and other people believe that Sunday is now the "Christian Sabbath," so what do you find in the Bible to supports these views?
    Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Since the Sabbath is in the Ten Commandments... therefore it still exist... the problem is you think the Sabbath is a day of the week... to tell you the Truth... because it's not.
     
  5. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Notice that the apostle Paul explicitly tells us that we are not required to observe the Sabbath: "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord." (Romans 14:5-6) When Paul referred to one day being considered as more sacred than another, the first-century Jews would have easily understood that he was referring to the Sabbath. Paul's point was that the Sabbath can be considered as a special day, but it does not need to be regarded as sacred or special. Observing the Sabbath is not a requirement under the New Covenant (which further confirms that the Ten Commandments have been abolished). Here's another example: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17) Whenever we see the word "therefore" in Scripture, we should try to find out what it's there for. This passage follows Paul's discussion in which he points out that the Law of Moses has been canceled and has been nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14-15). Therefore, Paul says, we should not let anyone judge us in regard to keeping the Sabbath because the Sabbath was a shadow of things to come. Observing the Sabbath is not a requirement under the New Covenant (which further confirms that the Ten Commandments have been abolished).
     
  6. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Whatever you want to believe, that's fine by me. Your choice, your soul. Not mine. Again the Sabbath is not a day of the week., nor is it any day of the week... And the Sabbath is a person... sheesh...
     
  7. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 11 2009, 09:46 PM)
    Whatever you want to believe, that's fine by me. Your choice, your soul. Not mine. Again the Sabbath is not a day of the week., nor is it any day of the week... And the Sabbath is a person... sheesh...
    Jordan...are you following my post, just to harass me! If not then stop the put downs and explain yourself...It looks like you are... flaming, harassing, or trolling. We recognize that these terms may be unfamiliar to some, but they are a virtual extension of the insults prohibition. Flaming is when a member or members follow another member around the forum by making rude and inflammatory posts verbally attacking another member. Harassment is similar to flaming, but may be carried out through other means such as private message (PM) or email. Last but not least, trolling is the practice of making posts only meant to annoy, offend, or simply disrupt.Here's another example: "But now that you know God--or rather are known by God-- how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you." (Galatians 4:9-11) In the book of Galatians, the apostle Paul was trying to counteract the teachings of a certain group of Jews (often called the "Judaizers") who were trying to force Gentile Christians to submit themselves to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is the context here, and the "special days and months and seasons and years" must be interpreted in light of the context. They are all related to the Law of Moses. The "years" are the sabbath years and the Year of Jubilee (see Leviticus 25:2-13). The "seasons" refer to the seasonal religious festivals (see Colossians 2:16-17 ). The "months" are the New Moon celebrations (see Colossians 2:16-17) which occurred monthly. The "special days" include the Sabbath days. For example, here is what a prominent Bible commentary says about this passage: "Under the influence of the Judaizers the Galatians had at least begun to observe the Mosaic calendar. They kept special days (weekly sabbaths), and months (new moons), and seasons (seasonal festivals such as Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles), and years (sabbatical and jubilee years)." (The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.602) Paul was asking the Gentile Christians in Galatia why they were turning "backwards" to the weak and miserable principles of the Law of Moses. He feared that he had wasted his efforts on them, partly because they were observing "special days" (the weekly Sabbaths). His point was that the Sabbath and all of the other commandments of the Law of Moses have now been canceled, so why would anyone want to become enslaved to them? Therefore, once again we can see that observing the Sabbath is not a requirement under the New Covenant.
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 11 2009, 10:17 PM)
    QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 11 2009, 09:46 PM)
    Whatever you want to believe, that's fine by me. Your choice, your soul. Not mine. Again the Sabbath is not a day of the week., nor is it any day of the week... And the Sabbath is a person... sheesh...
    Jordan...are you following my post, just to harass me! If not then stop the put downs and explain yourself...It looks like you are... flaming, harassing, or trolling. We recognize that these terms may be unfamiliar to some, but they are a virtual extension of the insults prohibition. Flaming is when a member or members follow another member around the forum by making rude and inflammatory posts verbally attacking another member. Harassment is similar to flaming, but may be carried out through other means such as private message (PM) or email. Last but not least, trolling is the practice of making posts only meant to annoy, offend, or simply disrupt.Here's another example: "But now that you know God--or rather are known by God-- how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you." (Galatians 4:9-11) In the book of Galatians, the apostle Paul was trying to counteract the teachings of a certain group of Jews (often called the "Judaizers") who were trying to force Gentile Christians to submit themselves to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is the context here, and the "special days and months and seasons and years" must be interpreted in light of the context. They are all related to the Law of Moses. The "years" are the sabbath years and the Year of Jubilee (see Leviticus 25:2-13). The "seasons" refer to the seasonal religious festivals (see Colossians 2:16-17 ). The "months" are the New Moon celebrations (see Colossians 2:16-17) which occurred monthly. The "special days" include the Sabbath days. For example, here is what a prominent Bible commentary says about this passage: "Under the influence of the Judaizers the Galatians had at least begun to observe the Mosaic calendar. They kept special days (weekly sabbaths), and months (new moons), and seasons (seasonal festivals such as Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles), and years (sabbatical and jubilee years)." (The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.602) Paul was asking the Gentile Christians in Galatia why they were turning "backwards" to the weak and miserable principles of the Law of Moses. He feared that he had wasted his efforts on them, partly because they were observing "special days" (the weekly Sabbaths). His point was that the Sabbath and all of the other commandments of the Law of Moses have now been canceled, so why would anyone want to become enslaved to them? Therefore, once again we can see that observing the Sabbath is not a requirement under the New Covenant.No, I'm not here to harass anyone as it it is against the rules of CB. When I always posts around you, I always end up seeing a little (at least) twist of scriptures. But that is why I usually don't listen to you, because you seem to be wise in your own conceit, in which God is against...The Sabbath is not a Law of Moses. It is the 4th commandments of God's Ten Commandments... the food laws are one of the Mosaic laws... but all of Mosaic laws are fulfiled in Christ. The reason Paul says that in Colossians 2:16 is that he is telling you that the Sabbath is not a single day of the week. He is telling you not to let anyone to judge you of the Sabbath, meat and drinks. Why?Because Christ Himself is the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5) And we should rest in Him everyday.
     
  9. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 11 2009, 10:48 PM)
    Jordan...are you following my post, just to harass me! If not then stop the put downs and explain yourself...It looks like you are... flaming, harassing, or trolling. We recognize that these terms may be unfamiliar to some, but they are a virtual extension of the insults prohibition. Flaming is when a member or members follow another member around the forum by making rude and inflammatory posts verbally attacking another member. Harassment is similar to flaming, but may be carried out through other means such as private message (PM) or email. Last but not least, trolling is the practice of making posts only meant to annoy, offend, or simply disrupt.Here's another example: "But now that you know God--or rather are known by God-- how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you." (Galatians 4:9-11) In the book of Galatians, the apostle Paul was trying to counteract the teachings of a certain group of Jews (often called the "Judaizers") who were trying to force Gentile Christians to submit themselves to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is the context here, and the "special days and months and seasons and years" must be interpreted in light of the context. They are all related to the Law of Moses. The "years" are the sabbath years and the Year of Jubilee (see Leviticus 25:2-13). The "seasons" refer to the seasonal religious festivals (see Colossians 2:16-17 ). The "months" are the New Moon celebrations (see Colossians 2:16-17) which occurred monthly. The "special days" include the Sabbath days. For example, here is what a prominent Bible commentary says about this passage: "Under the influence of the Judaizers the Galatians had at least begun to observe the Mosaic calendar. They kept special days (weekly sabbaths), and months (new moons), and seasons (seasonal festivals such as Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles), and years (sabbatical and jubilee years)." (The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.602) Paul was asking the Gentile Christians in Galatia why they were turning "backwards" to the weak and miserable principles of the Law of Moses. He feared that he had wasted his efforts on them, partly because they were observing "special days" (the weekly Sabbaths). His point was that the Sabbath and all of the other commandments of the Law of Moses have now been canceled, so why would anyone want to become enslaved to them? Therefore, once again we can see that observing the Sabbath is not a requirement under the New Covenant.No, I'm not here to harass anyone as it it is against the rules of CB. When I always posts around you, I always end up seeing a little (at least) twist of scriptures. But that is why I usually don't listen to you, because you seem to be wise in your own conceit, in which God is against...The Sabbath is not a Law of Moses. It is the 4th commandments of God's Ten Commandments... the food laws are one of the Mosaic laws... but all of Mosaic laws are fulfiled in Christ. The reason Paul says that in Colossians 2:16 is that he is telling you that the Sabbath is not a single day of the week. He is telling you not to let anyone to judge you of the Sabbath, meat and drinks. Why?Because Christ Himself is the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5) And we should rest in Him everyday.
    If your not going to read my post then don't reply to them...if you half read them it will sound like I am twisting scriptures. I posted itwo post back this....Here's another example: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17)Also if you would have read my post ...I quoted scripture that called it sabbath day. It really seems to me that you are nick-picking my post on purpose. You are either not comprehending what I post or not reading them at all!
     
  10. Vickie

    Vickie New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 11 2009, 08:16 PM)
    Are Christians required to obey the Ten Commandments? If so, then are we obligated to observe the Sabbath (the Fourth Commandment)? If we are obligated to observe the Sabbath, then does it need to be on Saturday like in the Old Testament, or is there a "Christian Sabbath" which has been changed to Sunday?
    You have asked the question that has sparked much controversy. Sabbath Keepers have their verses and Sunday keepers have their verses, and they claim the Christ. Colossians 2:16-23 is how Paul addressed this issue of following Christ. Don't just read part of it, read all of it for the end of these verses (22-23) bring it to light. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining the sensual indulgence. Set your heart on Christ. To be intimate with him personally. Rid yourself of anger (Col. 3:7) rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other. Accepting Christ is about treating others with love, love one another. Love your neighbors as your self. Turn from evil. This is the way to Christ. Ask Christ to teach you as his has become the High Priest no longer does a Levi hold that officeHeb 7:12 For when there is a CHANGE of the priesthood, there must ALSO BE A CHANGE of the LAW. He of whom these things are spoken of belonged to a DIFFERENT TRIBE. (no longer the tribe of LEVI) And NO ONE FROM THAT TRIBE HAS EVER SERVED AT THE ALTAR. For it is clear that our LORD ascended from JUDAH. Heb 7:18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless and a better hope in introduced, by which we draw near to GodWe draw near to God through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us. Obeying the commands written consist of our being changed from carnal actions to spiritual actions. We have become the temple that God dwells in. Act 17:24 The god who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built BY HANDS. Going to church is good if they themselves understand what the scriptures say and are not preaching against what these verses say that I just gave you. We are in the Last Days and I am not attending church for many have become twisted and lost the truth. Where two or more are gather, there Christ will be. Any time you assemble with another Christian by phone or bible study or like here on this forum, you are assembling yourself. You need to make daily time with Christ in a bible study of your own. For this Christ will feed you and bring you down the right path. Trust Christ alone. Prove all things I have written you and others, by your own personal study with the Lord guiding you. Then you will be safe. In Christ's precious words Vickie
     
  11. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Pretty good advice there, Vickie. [​IMG]QUOTE
    Matthew 5:17-19Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    Christ went on to expand on the Ten Commandments, with the focus being on our own desires to do something, even though we may not commit the physical act of things like murder or adultery. So that being said, why did Christ not expand on the Sabbath right there in that same discussion? My humble answer is because understanding it is understanding something much larger.QUOTE
    Colossians 2:16-17Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
    So, using the proverbial 'you' here, what are you doing when you say -- "Oh, those Christians over there are holding a false pagan day on ________, they should do the right thing and hold in on ____________?" Some cannot get past that verse, and if some cannot get past making that judgment, I'm not interested. Will Christ stand on Judgment Day and ask us if we held the Sabbath on Saturday, Sunday, or Tuesday!? What did His Word just say? I don't think so. This is an area where many like to confuse Church and man's traditions.QUOTE
    Luke 6:2-5And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days? And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungered, and they which were with him; How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the showbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone? And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
    They make the very same mistake made here, they are the modern day Pharisees.After all, what is the Sabbath that he is Lord over? Sabbath means rest, does it not?QUOTE
    Hebrews 4:1-11Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
    I've highlighted a couple of things, but I think the entire chapter should be read. Christ is that rest for us, as He himself testified of his Lordship of the Sabbath. We are to enter into that rest, but there is an important caveat that cannot be missed. This is one of my favorite literary constructs of the Bible. It's called a paradox, which by definition is an apparent contradiction. (IE: When two opposites are used to say something profound.) It's a rare device and is always used for great effect when used in a serious context.That paradox is the labor that we undertake to enter into the rest of God. Christ is the Sabbath, and both passages convey this. We are to be in Christ, not in some 'holy day' that causes strife and division. It's about CHRIST, not Sunday, Saturday, or any other day.
     
  12. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    (this was not written by me but I believe it to be true)Romans 3:31: Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.Those who preach law inevitably use this single verse at the end of the chapter of Romans 3 to try and prove that Christ is NOT the end of the law; that those who believe in Jesus Christ are still under the law; that even though people believe, they are still under the supervision of the law.The first mistake is surgically removing a single verse from its proper setting. This is a favorite technique of SDAs and others who preach law, and, indeed, most of the "unique" doctrines of SDAism are created using this "cut-and-paste" type of bibliology. Some verses of Scripture are, indeed, independent, and their meaning remains the same in our out of context--such as "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." This verse means the same thing in or out of context. But the 31st verse of Romans 3 cannot be separated from its context, or else it appears to take on a different meaning. But, unfortunately, it is used more often out of context than in. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. And those who quote it immediately set their own interpretation on what it means to "uphold the law," which is nearly always that we keep the law by faith.It should be a red flag for any serious student of the Scriptures when someone consistently offers only isolated proof texts without any consideration of the context. Sometimes only a few verses of context is required. Sometimes much more is needed. In this case, how can someone address what it means to "uphold" the law if one does not take into consideration what the purpose of the law actually is?Paul says this about using the law in I Timothy:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. So what is the "proper" use of the law? Let's look at this verse itself:We also know that the law is not made for the righteous..."This not only answers the question as to whether Jesus was subject to the law, but also those who trust in Him. Are we not "righteous through faith" when we believe in the salvation that He offers? Are we not accounted holy before God? This, I believe, is exactly what Paul meant when he wrote:Christ is the end of the law that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.Christ is the end of the law so that there MAY be righteousness for all who believe. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness because we are ALREADY righteous before God in Him, and the law was not made for the righteous.To place the believer back under the law is not a proper use of the law. It is also an abrogation of that faith which tells us that Christ is, indeed, the end of the law.In summary: 1. The law is good if it is used properly.2. The law was not made for the righteous. Those who are in Christ are righteous--by faith. 3. Thus, to place those who are righteous by faith under the law is an improper use of the law.4. One cannot "uphold" the law if one uses it improperly.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gospelchat
     
  13. Vickie

    Vickie New Member

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    QUOTE (Denver @ Mar 14 2009, 11:05 AM)
    Pretty good advice there, Vickie. [​IMG]
    Thank you Denver. [​IMG] QUOTE
    Denver says: I've highlighted a couple of things, but I think the entire chapter should be read. Christ is that rest for us, as He himself testified of his Lordship of the Sabbath. We are to enter into that rest, but there is an important caveat that cannot be missed. This is one of my favorite literary constructs of the Bible. It's called a paradox, which by definition is an apparent contradiction. (IE: When two opposites are used to say something profound.) It's a rare device and is always used for great effect when used in a serious context.That paradox is the labor that we undertake to enter into the rest of God. Christ is the Sabbath, and both passages convey this. We are to be in Christ, not in some 'holy day' that causes strife and division. It's about CHRIST, not Sunday, Saturday, or any other day.
    I've entered into that rest in Christ , you gave me this biggest grin as I read this you wrote. While I was once under a Sabbath keeping church, until our Lord brought me out in his time, not mine, I used verses to fight for what I believed in, and no one could move me. From this I learned that people are growing and in God's timing they will come out, if they are convicted in Jesus Christ as Lord. For God knows who his children are and testing comes in many different forms from our Lord. Temptation comes from Satan with what is deeply embedded in our hearts. I enjoyed your reply very much. Thanks for sharing. We serve a great and wonderful Lord who is coming to collect his children soon. When I use the term soon, it is quicker than many think, but still some fulfillment of prophecy left, yet. He has sent the message the tribulation is coming through the seed of Ishmael. He spoke it to me directly about 2 yrs ago. And we are getting closer. It's all around us and even in the air. Can't wait hardly for it to be over and to be given eternal life, the hope we have in Christ. In Christ's precious and wonderful freedom Vickie
     
  14. Vickie

    Vickie New Member

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    QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Mar 14 2009, 09:00 PM)
    (this was not written by me but I believe it to be true)Romans 3:31: Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.Those who preach law inevitably use this single verse at the end of the chapter of Romans 3 to try and prove that Christ is NOT the end of the law; that those who believe in Jesus Christ are still under the law; that even though people believe, they are still under the supervision of the law.righteous.To place the believer back under the law is not a proper use of the law. It is also an abrogation of that faith which tells us that Christ is, indeed, the end of the law.In summary: 1. The law is good if it is used properly.2. The law was not made for the righteous. Those who are in Christ are righteous--by faith. 3. Thus, to place those who are righteous by faith under the law is an improper use of the law.4. One cannot "uphold" the law if one uses it improperly.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gospelchat
    The same can be said for those who believe in grace to the point they think they have no law that it was nailed to the cross. We have commands to follow as well as the Law of God that has been implanted into our hearts, but, we are capable of destroying this by the way we live our life with the Holy Spirit. For it is through our Faith in believing that which is written and given to us all through the scriptures a way of life, that must be lived. It was the same way of life for us as it was for Israel, they had to sacrifice under the Mosaic law, we have to repent under the Law of Christ when they sinned. The way of Christ is to come out of sin. What ever is needed to bring it to our attention, through the reading of verses that our conscience is quickened or our hearts being seared. What we have developed here in this life will be taken with us in the coming kingdom of God. This is where I reward will come in. I enjoyed what you brought out. You write very well, I get tired like I am now and I don't express myself as well as I like to. So, to bed I go and thanks for letting me share with you. In Chris't precious words.Vickie
     
  15. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 11 2009, 10:17 PM)
    Jordan...are you following my post, just to harass me! If not then stop the put downs and explain yourself...It looks like you are... flaming, harassing, or trolling. We recognize that these terms may be unfamiliar to some, but they are a virtual extension of the insults prohibition. Flaming is when a member or members follow another member around the forum by making rude and inflammatory posts verbally attacking another member. Harassment is similar to flaming, but may be carried out through other means such as private message (PM) or email. Last but not least, trolling is the practice of making posts only meant to annoy, offend, or simply disrupt.Here's another example: "But now that you know God--or rather are known by God-- how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you." (Galatians 4:9-11) In the book of Galatians, the apostle Paul was trying to counteract the teachings of a certain group of Jews (often called the "Judaizers") who were trying to force Gentile Christians to submit themselves to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is the context here, and the "special days and months and seasons and years" must be interpreted in light of the context. They are all related to the Law of Moses. The "years" are the sabbath years and the Year of Jubilee (see Leviticus 25:2-13). The "seasons" refer to the seasonal religious festivals (see Colossians 2:16-17 ). The "months" are the New Moon celebrations (see Colossians 2:16-17) which occurred monthly. The "special days" include the Sabbath days. For example, here is what a prominent Bible commentary says about this passage: "Under the influence of the Judaizers the Galatians had at least begun to observe the Mosaic calendar. They kept special days (weekly sabbaths), and months (new moons), and seasons (seasonal festivals such as Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles), and years (sabbatical and jubilee years)." (The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.602) Paul was asking the Gentile Christians in Galatia why they were turning "backwards" to the weak and miserable principles of the Law of Moses. He feared that he had wasted his efforts on them, partly because they were observing "special days" (the weekly Sabbaths). His point was that the Sabbath and all of the other commandments of the Law of Moses have now been canceled, so why would anyone want to become enslaved to them? Therefore, once again we can see that observing the Sabbath is not a requirement under the New Covenant.
    Hi Setfree , you have right ON , AND Jesus said that He is Lord of the Sabbath , in Luke 6:5 and then in Luke 6:6 , the scribes and the Parisees watched Him to see whether He would heal on the sabbath DAY . And that he did not offer any scripture to rebut your OP . And as you have point out, there were also sabbaths of the Land , that most don't know about. You keep ONE , you have to keep them all , and I don;t see anyone getting stoned for breaking the Sabbath .
     
  16. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (dan p @ Apr 4 2009, 03:48 PM)
    Hi Setfree , you have right ON , AND Jesus said that He is Lord of the Sabbath , in Luke 6:5 and then in Luke 6:6 , the scribes and the Parisees watched Him to see whether He would heal on the sabbath DAY . And that he did not offer any scripture to rebut your OP . And as you have point out, there were also sabbaths of the Land , that most don't know about. You keep ONE , you have to keep them all , and I don;t see anyone getting stoned for breaking the Sabbath .
    I gave her scriptures alright, but I don't quote scriptures over and over for a never-ending arguments, as it does not edify the Body of Christ as someone who always twist people's word to mean something completely different than it originally meant.Christ is my Sabbath. God is my Sabbath. And it's not about a day of the week at all.
     
  17. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    QUOTE
    Going to church is good if they themselves understand what the scriptures say and are not preaching against what these verses say that I just gave you. We are in the Last Days and I am not attending church for many have become twisted and lost the truth. Where two or more are gather, there Christ will be. Any time you assemble with another Christian by phone or bible study or like here on this forum, you are assembling yourself. You need to make daily time with Christ in a bible study of your own. For this Christ will feed you and bring you down the right path. Trust Christ alone. Prove all things I have written you and others, by your own personal study with the Lord guiding you. Then you will be safe.
    Exactly why I'm on this board.Setfree and DanP, Don't get your feelings hurt when people correct you. It's not meant to be rude, and sometimes you may have a point that helps someone. False doctrine or misunderstandings will be called by what they are and there's no need to be silent about it. But we are all here to learn and to SHARE, not to argue.
     
  18. bethog

    bethog New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 12 2009, 03:16 AM)
    Are Christians required to obey the Ten Commandments? If so, then are we obligated to observe the Sabbath (the Fourth Commandment)? If we are obligated to observe the Sabbath, then does it need to be on Saturday like in the Old Testament, or is there a "Christian Sabbath" which has been changed to Sunday?
    In the Third Century, Emperor Constantine sought to unify his growing empire and created one state religion called Christianity, utilizing elements of the original faith mixed with the prevailing pagan traditions of the region. The Sabbath was changed to Sunday as that was the day of worship to the sun god, and the rest of the biblical feasts were expunged.
     
  19. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    I'm wondering if all of us are making the bible harder to understand than it needs to be.
     
  20. bethog

    bethog New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 12 2009, 03:16 AM)
    Are Christians required to obey the Ten Commandments? If so, then are we obligated to observe the Sabbath (the Fourth Commandment)? If we are obligated to observe the Sabbath, then does it need to be on Saturday like in the Old Testament, or is there a "Christian Sabbath" which has been changed to Sunday?
    The Seventh Dayby Chuck Missler And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made . - Genesis 2:3Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. - Exodus 20:8Many Christians still remain uncomfortable over the issue of the Sabbath day. Observing Sunday as a memorial of the resurrection of our Lord is our traditional day of worship, and yet many are disturbed over this issue. (Anyone who thinks this is a simple issue to resolve hasn't studied it very carefully!) A number of key questions still remain unresolved for some:eek: Did God institute the Sabbath just for Israel?o Is a Christian supposed to keep the Ten Commandments?o Does a Christian have to keep the Sabbath?o When did Sunday replace Saturday as "the holy day"?Noah's Animals? First, how many of each animal did Noah take into the ark? Often overlooked is the fact that Noah was to take seven of the "clean" and only two of the "unclean."1 But how did Noah know which were "clean" and which were "unclean?" These are ecclesiastical definitions. It seems that many concepts which were later codified in the Law under Moses had previously been ordained in Eden.2 (Notice, too, that Noah was not circumcised and still was able to observe these "Levitical" distinctions. Abraham, too, was declared righteous prior to his circumcision in Genesis 15:6; circumcision was established in Genesis 17:10ff. Note also that the priestly instructions linked these concepts with the Sabbath.3 )The Origin of the Sabbath Jesus emphasized that: The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath . - Mark 2:27His words point back before the Ten Commandments, to the original purpose and will of God. The Sabbath came into being when man came into being. It was set apart and blessed-as a divine example-for the use and benefit of man, at the Creation (Genesis 2:1-3).4 First Mention The first mention of the "Sabbath" (from the Hebrew verb shabbat , meaning "to rest from labor"; the day of rest) is in Exodus 16:23, regarding the gathering of manna:And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake today, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning . - Exodus 16:23Notice that this is four chapters before the Law was given at Mt. Sinai. They were to gather twice as much on the sixth day in anticipation of a day they were apparently already observing.5 It is clear that the Sabbath had been instituted long before the giving of the Law at Sinai: it was ordained in Eden.The Decalogue And, of course, the Sabbath was included in the Ten Commandments:6 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.That the Sabbath had been ordained prior to Sinai is even accounted for in the very wording of Exodus 20:8: "Remember..."7 The Sabbath was part of the covenant which God made with Israel at Sinai.8 Applicable to All People? This ordination of the Seventh Day acknowledges the moral duty of man to worship his Creator.9 It also recognizes the basic need of man for a weekly day of rest. The physical necessities of man require a Sabbath of rest. He is so constituted that his bodily welfare needs at least one day in seven for rest from ordinary labor. The failure to set aside the seventh day may account for the toll of stress in our modern society. (It has been reported that an 8% increase/decrease in traffic accidents surround the changes to/from "daylight savings time.")God even established Himself as the ultimate example. How can we ignore this day? If you love God, you need to spend time with Him. (In contrast to our hectic pace as double-income families, etc.)In Mosaic Legislation Under the Mosaic law, strict regulations were laid down regarding its observance.10 These were peculiar to that dispensation. In the subsequent history of the Jews, frequent references are made to the sanctity of the Sabbath.11 The kindling of a fire on the Sabbath was forbidden.12 The penalty for profaning the Sabbath by doing any work on it was death.13 And yet, the priests still carried on their duties about the Tabernacle.14 The Temple was full of activities.15 The rite of circumcision was performed on the Sabbath if it was the eighth day after the child's birth.16In later times they perverted the Sabbath by their traditions. Isaiah condemned the hypocrisy of the worshipers in his day.17 He defined true Sabbath-keeping as turning from one's own ways and own pleasures and taking delight in the Lord.18Other prophets also raised their protests against the abuse of the Sabbath.19 They regarded the destruction of Jerusalem and the captivity of the Jews as due-at least in part-to their desecration of the Sabbath.20 Their 70-year exile in Babylon was directly linked to the Sabbath instructions.21 God clearly takes His instructions for the Sabbath, and Sabbatical years, seriously.You can't legislate devotion. Even today, in Israel's secular state, a visitor is confronted with Sabbath elevators (stopping at every floor during the Sabbath); and other travel inconveniences quite removed from the real intent of the Sabbath observance.The New Testament Period As time passed, the true meaning of the Sabbath had been obscured by the multitude of restrictions laid upon its observance; it had become largely external and formal. And, of course, as the rules surrounding the observance of the Sabbath multiplied, so did the fanciful and far-fetched rituals to circumvent them.22 It was Jesus' custom to attend the synagogue on the Sabbath.23 It was inevitable that Jesus would come into conflict with the Jewish leadership over the Sabbath. In His teaching He upheld the authority and validity of the Mosaic Law.24 His emphasis, however, was not on the external observance of the law, but on a spontaneous performance of the will of God which underlaid the law.25 In regards to the Sabbath, He clarified the true meaning by showing the original purpose for its institution: The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath . - Mark 2:27Six Conflicts Jesus asserted His lordship over the Sabbath.26 He defended His disciples for plucking grain on the Sabbath by alluding to the time when David and his men ate the bread of the Presence.27 In so doing, Jesus placed the Sabbath commandment in the same class as the ceremonial law. Human need had precedence over the ceremonial requirements. He also reminded His critics that the priests in the Temple profaned the Sabbath and were held guiltless.28 He referred to the circumcision of a male on the Sabbath Day.29 Jesus expressed anger over those at Capernaum who showed more concern for the punctilious observance of the Sabbath than for a human being who was deprived of the use of a hand.30 Likewise, he was angered by the ruler of the synagogue who became indignant when Jesus healed a woman who had a spirit of infirmity for 18 years.31 There were seven healings on the Sabbath.32 (However, there were also healings on other non-Sabbath days.33 ) In all of these instances, Jesus showed that He placed human need above mere external ceremonial observance of the Sabbath. He never did or said anything to suggest that He intended to take away from man the privileges afforded by such a day of rest.The Early Christians The early Christians were loyal Jews; they worshiped daily in the Temple at Jerusalem;34 they attended services in the synagogue;35 they revered the law of Moses.36 The dispute over the requirements of a Gentile Christian were resolved at the Council at Jerusalem.37 The Dangers of Legalism Paul emphasized that the law was a yoke of bondage from which the Christian had been set free.38 Paul made no distinction between moral and ceremonial law. It was all part of that old covenant which was done away in Christ.39 It was "nailed to the cross."40 This is the central teaching of the New Testament. There are no grounds for imposing the Sabbath on the Christian, who is free from the burden of the law's demands. The Spirit of Christ enables him to fulfill God's will apart from the external observances of the law.The Sabbath is mentioned along with the festivals and new moons, all of which are declared to be "only a shadow of what is to come."41 To "observe days, and months, and seasons, and years" is deemed to be slaves to "the weak and beggarly elemental spirits."42 The ritual observance of days is a characteristic of "the man who is weak in faith."43 The writer of Hebrews emphasizes that the Sabbath is also a type of "God's rest" which is an inheritance of all the people of God.44 We are urged, in a larger sense, to "strive to enter that rest."The Sunday "Sabbath" The first day of the week is now widely observed as the Sabbath. But where has God expressly authorized this change? After His resurrection, which took place on the first day of the week, Jesus appeared to His disciples on four occasions which were on a Sunday.45 This becomes a major part of the basis of the veneration of Sunday as the "Lord's Day," ostensibly replacing the traditional Sabbath.Pentecost, the birth of the church, was also, by definition, on a Sunday.46 They did meet on a Sunday night,47 but that would actually be Monday in Jewish reckoning. While these are suggestive, they are far from a conclusive teaching.48 (The oft-quoted 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2 is also unclear: "...that there be no gatherings when I come."?) The Hebrew Sabbath, has, of course, continued to be observed by non-Christian Jews to the present time. During the first century some Jewish Christians also continued the practice of observing the seventh day of the week, as well as the assembly for worship on the first day of the week, but their influence on Christianity, discernible for several centuries, dwindled rapidly. It has been suggested that with the rise of anti-Semitism in the early centuries, Sunday worship was a convenient means of excluding the Jewish believers. Caveats About the "Early Church" The writings of a number of the early church fathers in the 2nd and 3rd centuries support the tradition of Sunday worship. However, the views of the early church after the book of Acts is, in some views, an unreliable basis to establish doctrine. When Jesus sent His Seven Letters to Seven Churches (Revelation Chapters 2 and 3), each was surprised by their report card. Those that thought they were doing well weren't. Those that thought they were not doing well, were. Even by the late 90s the church was already substantially deviant from the Lord's desires.Also, eschatological errors (i.e., Amillennialism, et al.) were rampant, as well as errors due to the Gnostic influences, etc. Furthermore, the rising anti-Semitism in the early church, along with the allegorical hermeneutics promoted by Origen and later by Augustine, makes their views regarding the Sabbath rather suspect. These anti-Semitical tendencies subsequently rose to include the emergence of "blood libel" and other abuses that were reflected in the Crusades and other medieval horrors. Most of us as Gentiles have little appreciation for the abuses suffered by the Jews-under the banner of "Christ"-unless we have undertaken a careful study of the bloody history of the church.49 The "Christian Sabbath" Views There are, of course, many diverse views regarding Sunday as the "Christian" Sabbath, and there are those who strongly adhere to the traditional Saturday as the Sabbath. Many of us may have encountered the legalistic zeal of the Seventh-Day Adventists over this "Seventh Day" issue; however, it is not the Seventh Day which emerges as the critical theological issue - it is the role of the law, and our liberty in Christ, that is really the fundamental issue.The Epistles to the Galatians, Colossians, and Romans far overshadow any particular cultural customs and ritual observances, and clearly emphasize our freedom from all external rules as the key to the entire New Testament Gospel. That, indeed, is the "Good News."Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days : - Colossians 2:16 It is interesting that Paul emphasizes that it is the "weaker" ones in faith that burden themselves with such things (Cf. Romans 14:1-6).Prophetic Implications From the standpoint of Bible prophecy, however, there are some provocative enigmas which also emerge from the Seventh Day issue. The Sabbath is an intrinsic part of the creation, specifically for man.50 It isn't intrinsically limited to the Mosaic Covenant. Sabbaths will continue as a basis for worship in the Millennium: For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. - Isaiah 66:22, 23The Sabbath will also be honored in Ezekiel's Temple: the gate to inner court will be closed six days and only opened on the Sabbath and on the day of the new moon.51 Since the Sabbath apparently survives the church period,52 this seems to cloud the view that Sunday replaced the Sabbath.ConclusionsThe veneration of the first day as a memorial of the Resurrection is certainly appropriate, although its historical role as a replacement day of worship is arguable. Its formal institution appears to have been an expedient exploited by Emperor Constantine and following.53 The Sabbath is intended as a time of devotion, not a subjection to burdensome rules. It is for the benefit of man, to be taken advantage of. As a demonstration of God's love, and a partaking of His blessing, the seventh day apparently has not been permanently set aside. Our God is Jewish. "Salvation is of the Jews."54 All of our benefits are derivative from the Abrahamic covenant. We are grafted in the true olive tree, from the root of Abrahamic covenant (Romans 11). We should not forget that we serve the King of the Jews. We are members of a church founded by Jewish leaders; our highest authority is a Jewish Bible. While we have been freed from the law, we still can enjoy the benefits of Creation.In our culture, we enjoy two free days each week, in any case. The first-day worship is thus available to us as an opportunity. The seventh-day Sabbath is also still available to us as an opportunity, yet not under the law:One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. - Romans 14:5 So the question is, Can we enjoy the benefits of the Sabbath without "coming under the law?" [We adopt other Jewish practices to our benefit without incurring the burdens of the law: circumcision (for hygienic reasons), some of the dietary practices, etc.]It is clear to me that Adam, Cain, Enoch, Noah, et al., all had instruction on the seventh day of rest. It was the pattern in Exodus 16 before the manna was given and was memorialized in the Decalogue. In addition, it was observed by Christ ceremonially.The error we can easily fall into, however, is legalism and its deprivations of the fundamental blessings of our redemption. (Study Paul's definitive teaching in Romans.)Our Personal Resolution Nan and I, personally, have resolved-in the absence of travel or other logistic or scheduling constraints-to "remember the Sabbath Day" by adopting the following procedure:1. From Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, we "set aside" the time for study, meditation, and as a departure from our normal routines.2. We have resolved to do whatever we do deliberately and together.3. There are no other "rules."We don't make it a "burden": we simply attempt to avail ourselves of His intended blessing. We attempt - in an informal but deliberate way - to study and reflect on His Word and find ways to praise Him.
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    Genesis 7:2. The plan of redemption was being taught in Genesis 3:21: not by their own efforts, but by the shedding of innocent blood they would be covered. Ezekiel 44:23, 24. It is significant that there are no "evenings" and "mornings" connected to the seventh day. The Hebrew terms erev and boker, connoting "evening" and "morning," may have had deeper implications in the staging of entropy reductions; see Stretching the Heavens . Exodus 16:22-28. Exodus 20:8-11. The six "days" of creation are clarified in Exodus 20:11. Any problem with "24-hour days" isn't in Genesis 1; it is here. Exodus 20:2; Deuternomy 4:13; 5:2-21. Who was his Creator? John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16, 17. Exodus 35:2,3 Leviticus 23:3 26:34. Isaiah 56:2,4,6,7 58:13,14; Jeremiah 17:20-22. (Cf. Nehemiah 13:19.) Exodus 25:3. Exodus 31:14-17. Leviticus 24:8; Numbers 28:9, 10. 1 Chronicles 9:32; 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 8:13; 23:4; 31:3. Leviticus 12:3; John 7:22. Isaiah 1:12, 13. Isaiah 58:13,14. Jeremiah 17:21, 22; Ezekiel 22:8; Amos 8:4. Jeremiah 17:27; Exodus 20:23, 24. 2 Chronicles 36:20, 21. A. Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Volume II, p.777. Luke 4:16; Mark 1:21; 3:1; Luke 13:10. Matthew 5:17-20; 15:1-6; 19:16-19; 22:35-40; Luke 16:17. Matt hew 5:21-48;19:3-9. Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5. Matthew 12:1-4; Mark 2:23-26; Luke 6:1-4. Matthew 12:5. Leviticus 12:3; John 7:22, 23. Mark 3:1-5; Matthew 12:8-14. Luke 13:10-17. Mark 1:21-27; Mark 1:29-31; John 5:1-9; Mark 3:1-6 (and Matthew 12:8-14); Luke 13:10-17; Luke 14:1-6; John 9:1-14. Mark 1:32. Acts 2:46; 5:42. Acts 9:20; 13:14; 14:1; 17:1, 2, 10; 18:4. Acts 21:20. Acts 15. Galatians 3:2, 3; 5:1; et al. 2 Corinthians 3:14. Colossians 2:14. Colossians 2:16, 17. Galatians 4:9, 10; Cf. Colossians 2:20. Romans 14:1-6. Hebrews 4:1-11. Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1. Acts 2:1. Acts 20:7. 20:26, "... after eight days again..." Genesis 2:2, 3. Ezekiel 46:1ff. Matthew 24:20; Isaiah 66:22, 23; Ezekiel 46:1ff. John 4:22.
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