The 10 Commandments are FOREVER

[quietthinker]

Agreed again.
Maybe we shouldn't connect dots and then post what we get? Not sure.
But it's a good thought.
It's just that I'm trained to read scripture plainly and not add to it.
No problem...

We all connect the dots about many things in many ways....if we didn't we'd be wiping our backside and putting it back on the plate.....forgive the crude analogy.

Joining the dots well differentiates between the fool and the wise man.

Every preacher who delivers a sermon attempts to join the dots in his presentation using scripture and logic. If he/she does it well, God is glorified and the peoples hearts soar......just like when Jesus spoke to the people.
If it's done poorly, tedium and poor perception results.

 

[farouk]

Can you explain what Luke was reporting about here in the early church in Acts?

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved......4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Why didn't they say the Gentiles were to keep the sabbath then in verse 20? Is it because of how the Jews were doing it to be saved when they are saved?

@Christ4Me Clearly we are not under the law in the sense that the Old Testament saints were. Hebrews 7.12 says the law was changed. Hebrews 7.19 says what we now have is better than the law.

 

[quietthinker]

By referring to two incidents in the O.T. when the saints did profane the sabbath and were guiltless because they were in the Temple, did not come across to me as Jesus saying His disciples were not profaning the sabbath, but rather why they are guiltless because He was with them, bring Himself greater than the Temple.

Jesus was using their understanding to counter their own logic......and then trumping it with a view which infuriated them (that he was Lord of the Sabbath, implying he created it....which he did, for the purpose of fellowship.

Keep in mind that the disciples are being exposed to an understanding which ran contrary to their training since their youth. Jesus was opening their eyes.....they were having the scales removed bit by bit, one could say a bit like Saul of Tarsus

The Pharisees were revered.....they weren't the religious tight shorts we see them as today. They were deemed to be informed and elicited respect from the people....the disciples included, in the early days of their discipleship to Jesus.

Jesus nurtured them incrementally through the three and a half years they were physically associated with him. He turned their perception about God 180 degrees to the accepted view.

We are in danger of missing this and tend to superimpose a 'religious' view onto these guys.

 

[quietthinker]

How would you have me say it? I'm referring to the sabbath they were being required to observe under Jewish law.

I suppose you wish to distinguish how it should be kept as opposed to how they did, but if you are predating it to argue that the true original sabbath was somehow corrupted, I think that would be a tough argument to make. Or is that not what you would be arguing for?

I don't think the argument for a corrupted Sabbath would be difficult to establish at all. It was corrupted all through Hebrew history as were many of the instruction given to them.
The corruption in Jewish understanding of the things of God reached its zenith when they killed the very one who came to rescue them.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Who are the 10 Commandments written to?
They are written to all God's Children.

Who are God's Children? Let's see.

God is a spirit. Those who worship Him (His Children) must worship Him in spirit and in Truth.
John 4:24

"And He declared unto you ... Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on tables of stone."
Deuteronomy 4:13

And what if His Children stop obeying His Commandments?

The Commandments were written to sinners, not to children of God. The Children of God worship Him in Spirit and in truth, for Christ has taken away their sin nature and nailed it to the cross. They are no longer sinners, because the laws of God are written on their new nature and their super-sensitive conscience keeps them from sinning. God dwells inside them, and we in Him. The Commandments of Jesus have everything to do with Him.

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart (conscience) does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Romans 6:

6-7 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

The part in red is referring to the Ten Commandments - the letter of the law.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

It's not about saving, it's about defining sin - just as Paul articulated in Romans 7.

I stated that.

What you are essentially saying in this post, whether you mean to be or not, is that we can't really sin anymore.

Spiritually, we have been washed of sins past, present and future. I believe OSAS. I believe we have a spiritual self but also still live with our flesh, that we are to render dead already, but not yet. We still sin, but it is not sin unto death. Sin dwells in the members of our flesh, but our spirit is purified so that if we died this instant, our spirits would separate from our flesh and we would got directly to the Lord, white as snow. That is how it has been since Christ.

 

[Christ4Me]

Jesus was using their understanding to counter their own logic......and then trumping it with a view which infuriated them (that he was Lord of the Sabbath, implying he created it....which he did, for the purpose of fellowship.

I did not get see any mention of that purpose in His message to the Pharisees as Him being Lord of the sabbath for the purpose of fellowship.

He mentioned mercy, and Him being with His disciples was for how He was defending them for why they were guiltless for profaning the sabbath.

Keep in mind that the disciples are being exposed to an understanding which ran contrary to their training since their youth. Jesus was opening their eyes.....they were having the scales removed bit by bit, one could say a bit like Saul of Tarsus

The Pharisees were revered.....they weren't the religious tight shorts we see them as today. They were deemed to be informed and elicited respect from the people....the disciples included, in the early days of their discipleship to Jesus.

Jesus nurtured them incrementally through the three and a half years they were physically associated with him. He turned their perception about God 180 degrees to the accepted view.

We are in danger of missing this and tend to superimpose a 'religious' view onto these guys.

To clarify, are you a sabbath day keeper? Is this why you are only seeing what you see in Matthew 12:1-8 ?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It is a part of the Ten. God did not put a ceremonial law into the 10. You do what you want.

Hi Cass,

The physical day called the Sabbath was put in the Ten Commandments as the sign of the Covenant pointing to the Creator (who is the Creator? Jesus). The Old Covenant had to do with the letter of the law, thus keeping a particular physical day. The New Covenant keeps the Spirit of those same laws, but much deeper. Instead of the bottom line of murder, the Spirit of love doesn't bring you to even hate. See? And the Sabbath is our rest, but not to our physical body anymore, but to our whole being - resting in the freedom from sin that Jesus blood provides.

Instead of worshiping a day and keeping it holy, we worship God, Himself, who has made us holy.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Maybe so, but they can also be blotted out of the Book.
Revelation 3:5

Again, why don't you read the context of the scripture. This is a letter to the Church of Sardis. The message was: "You have a reputation of being alive, BUT YOU ARE DEAD. WAKE UP, STRENGTHEN WHAT REMAINS AND IS ABOUT TO DIE, FOR I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD ... REPENT ... YOU HAVE A FEW PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT SOILED THEIR CLOTHES. THEY WILL WALK WITH ME, DRESSED IN WHITE FOR THEY ARE WORTHY.
Then we have verse 5: "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life ..."

Out of seven churches, only two were right with God, the others were rebuked and told to repent or else. They existed in the past but are also church types throughout the Church Age. We can see them today. We can see ourselves in some of the descriptions.
Philadelphia was the faithful church that is spared the hour of trial.
Smyrna was the persecuted church. It's faithful to death yet some need to repent.
Ephesus was the orthodox church with good doctrine but forgot their first love who is Jesus. I would imagine a lack of brotherly love ... so they were told to repent.
Pergamum is the worldly church with false doctrines, sin and materialism. Pergamum was also known as the location of the Throne of Satan.
Thyatira tolerates sin and is undisciplined ... repent!
Sardis was the dead church with no fruit ... repent!
Laodicea is neither hot nor cold but lukewarm. They may be self-sufficient, rich, in need of nothing, in their comfort zone. They toot their own horn when they do something nice

 

[quietthinker]

I did not get see any mention of that purpose in His message to the Pharisees as Him being Lord of the sabbath for the purpose of fellowship.

He mentioned mercy, and Him being with His disciples was for how He was defending them for why they were guiltless for profaning the sabbath.



To clarify, are you a sabbath day keeper? Is this why you are only seeing what you see in Matthew 12:1-8 ?

So there ya go, you don't see it!
Here's an attempt to change that ...Who created the Sabbath? ..the Creator did. Who is the Creator? Jesus! Colossians 1:16 (check the context) 'For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him'

Am I a sabbath keeper?....yes, I am ....in fact I approve all of God's Commandments.....even when they convince me of sin.

I say as John Newton (who coined the song 'Amazing Grace') says, 'two things I know, I am a great sinner and Christ is a great Saviour'

 

[BarneyFife]

To clarify, are you a sabbath day keeper? Is this why you are only seeing what you see in Matthew 12:1-8 ?

What is the purpose of a question like this?

 

[Oceanprayers]

The Sabbath and Marriage were instituted in Eden not as part of any moral Law ....these where instituted before Man fell.
Let's take marriage....a commitment to love each other in a special personal way
Let's take Sabbath....a day God committed to them so he could be with them in a special way

Both these are positive relationally, not restrictive.

They become restrictive after Man fell because man wanted to do his own thing ie, express his selfishness. He wanted to forget God and looked for gratification/joy/meaning elsewhere.

I'm married. I think marriage is a positive. And entering into the Sabbath rest God made for me is certainly a positive. Because relationally, marriage works because the married couple are in relationship with the Lord of the Sabbath.

What of marriage and Sabbath do you believe is relationally restrictive?
If you attend church on Sunday, and are married also, do you find that restrictive?

 

[BarneyFife]

Why didn't they say the Gentiles were to keep the sabbath then in verse 20? Is it because of how the Jews were doing it to be saved when they are saved?

Because the Sabbath wasn't an issue at that time. It was understood that it was every bit a part of God's law as were the other nine commandments. The Jews (the first Christians) were very zealous for the Sabbath. If people were going around trying to bring it down, we'd have a full report of that in Scripture, believe you me.

 

[quietthinker]

What is the purpose of a question like this?

who knows.....but it could be to categorise. Once categorisation has occurred one does not need to consider what is being said.....one can effortlessly slot that person into the irrelevant/ mislead/ heretic category or one can consider it seriously, depending which category a person has been slotted.
I do it myself......to my self reproach......so you see, I have the virus of sin also

 

[GodsGrace]

It is a part of the Ten. God did not put a ceremonial law into the 10. You do what you want.

Are you a Sabbath keeper?
I agree with you that it's within the 10 commandments.
But you'd have to agree that it IS a ceremonial Law.

 

[quietthinker]

What of marriage and Sabbath do you believe is relationally restrictive?

it is done out of obligation as opposed to ones heart being drawn out for relationship.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If God had intended them to be forgotten, maybe they'd be as obscure as the Mosaic/Ceremonial Laws.

That was kind of my point.
The Ten are distinguished and separated from the rest of the law, not because they are different and special in some way from the rest of the law, but because 1) God wanted to make sure the Israelites heard Him speaking to Moses, and 2) it's a summary of law sufficient to be easily known and recognized by everyone in the world (think of the laws of other religions). And it's able to quickly make the case for the condemnation of all of mankind. You have to study other religions to know what they teach and believe. But in Judaism the Ten gets a lot accomplished without having to dig into it. So I don't see any special significance of the laws in the Ten other than they are a good summary of God's law to make the case against mankind and be easily known and recognized by the whole world. Mission accomplished.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You continue to say 'some', but you are only referring to one. The 4th.

No, I mean 'some', because I don't separate the Ten from the rest of the laws delivered to Moses at Mt. Sanai, other than the Ten are a readily recognizable summary of God's laws sufficient to condemn all men without contest.

So, I'm saying some of all of God's laws do not have to be kept in regard to their literal keeping. They don't have to because what they sought to do has already been done for the believer through the Ministry and Sacrifice of Christ and the giving of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BarneyFife]

who knows.....but it could be to categorise. Once categorisation has occurred one does not need to consider what is being said.....one can effortlessly slot that person into the irrelevant/ mislead/ heretic category or one can consider it seriously, depending which category a person has been slotted.
I do it myself......to my self reproach......so you see, I have the virus of sin also

I actually wrote a longer post, to begin with, but I didn't want to cross over into unkindness so I truncated it. But I will say it was along the very same lines that you state here. One has to be able to pull up the right list of prejudices and genetic fallacies, you know.

 

[BarneyFife]

No, I mean 'some', because I don't separate the Ten from the rest of the laws delivered to Moses at Mt. Sanai, other than the Ten are a readily recognizable summary of God's laws sufficient to condemn all men without contest.

Are you still after the Sabbath?