The 144,000 before God at the end.

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David in NJ

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Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin.
You have no case at all.

How does Paul being a Jew, establish your ethnic assumption?

LISTEN to what the Apostle Paul says about ethnic Judaism: Galatians chapter 3

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you [a]that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed https://biblehub.com/nkjv/galatians/3.htm#footnotesamong you as crucified? 2This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4Have you suffered so [c]many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?


5Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.


The Law Brings a Curse​

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”


13Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


The Changeless Promise​

15Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God [e]in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.


Purpose of the Law​

19What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.


21Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


Sons and Heirs​

26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 

covenantee

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They are listed.
You can not answer????
Maybe get on the right track?
Again ,what tribe are you from?
What main harvest follows your gathering since you are firstfruiit and Wink wink Jewish church.
I'm from every tribe. :D

Through natural genetic dispersion and diffusion over up to more than three millennia, Abraham's DNA (and that of his great-grandsons) is possessed by the entire human race.

Corroborated empirically by the Jewish community itself.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Demonstrated mathematically.

Example of ancestral genetic ubiquity:

Charlemagne’s DNA and Our Universal Royalty

BY CARL ZIMMER

Nobody in my past was hugely famous, at least that I know of. I vaguely recall that an ancestor of mine who shipped over on the Mayflower distinguished himself by falling out of the ship and having to get fished out of the water. He might be notable, I guess, but hardly famous. It is much more fun to think that I am a bloodline descendant of Charlemagne. And in 1999, Joseph Chang gave me permission to think that way.

Chang was not a genealogist who had decided to make me his personal project. Instead, he is a statistician at Yale who likes to think of genealogy as a mathematical problem. When you draw your genealogy, you make two lines from yourself back to each of your parents. Then you have to draw two lines for each of them, back to your four grandparents. And then eight great-grandparents, sixteen great-great-grandparents, and so on. But not so on for very long. If you go back to the time of Charlemagne, forty generations or so, you should get to a generation of a trillion ancestors. That’s about two thousand times more people than existed on Earth when Charlemagne was alive.

The only way out of this paradox is to assume that our ancestors are not independent of one another. That is, if you trace their ancestry back, you loop back to a common ancestor. We’re not talking about first-cousin stuff here–more like twentieth-cousin. This means that instead of drawing a tree that fans out exponentially, we need to draw a web-like tapestry.

In a paper he published in 1999 [pdf], Chang analyzed this tapestry mathematically. If you look at the ancestry of a living population of people, he concluded, you’ll eventually find a common ancestor of all of them. That’s not to say that a single mythical woman somehow produced every European by magically laying a clutch of eggs. All this means is that as you move back through time, sooner or later some of the lines in the genealogy will cross, meeting at a single person.

As you go back further in time, more of those lines cross as you encounter more common ancestors of the living population. And then something really interesting happens. There comes a point at which, Chang wrote, “all individuals who have any descendants among the present-day individuals are actually ancestors of all present-day individuals.”

In 2002, the journalist Steven Olson wrote an article in the Atlantic about Chang’s work. To put some empirical meat on the abstract bones of Chang’s research, Olson considered a group of real people–living Europeans.

The most recent common ancestor of every European today (except for recent immigrants to the Continent) was someone who lived in Europe in the surprisingly recent past—only about 600 years ago. In other words, all Europeans alive today have among their ancestors the same man or woman who lived around 1400. Before that date, according to Chang’s model, the number of ancestors common to all Europeans today increased, until, about a thousand years ago, a peculiar situation prevailed: 20 percent of the adult Europeans alive in 1000 would turn out to be the ancestors of no one living today (that is, they had no children or all their descendants eventually died childless); each of the remaining 80 percent would turn out to be a direct ancestor of every European living today.

Suddenly, my pedigree looked classier: I am a descendant of Charlemagne. Of course, so is every other European. By the way, I’m also a descendant of Nefertiti. And so are you, and everyone else on Earth today. Chang figured that out by expanding his model from living Europeans to living humans, and getting an estimate of 3400 years instead of a thousand for the all-ancestor generation.

Things have changed a lot in the fourteen years since Chang published his first paper on ancestry. Scientists have amassed huge databases of genetic information about people all over the world. These may not be the same thing as a complete genealogy of the human race, but geneticists can still use them to tackle some of the same questions that intrigued Chang.

Recently, two geneticists, Peter Ralph of the University of Southern California and Graham Coop of the University of California at Davis, decided to look at the ancestry of Europe. They took advantage of a compilation of information about 2257 people from across the continent. Scientists had examined half a million sites in each person’s DNA, creating a distinctive list of genetic markers for each of them.

You can use this kind of genetic information to make some genealogical inferences, but you have to know what you’re dealing with. Your DNA is not a carbon copy of your parents’. Each time they made eggs or sperm, they shuffled the two copies of each of their chromosomes and put one in the cell. Just as a new deck gets more scrambled the more times you shuffle it, chromosomes get more shuffled from one generation to the next.

This means that if you compare two people’s DNA, you will find some chunks that are identical in sequence. The more closely related people are, the bigger the chunks you’ll find. This diagram shows how two first cousins share a piece of DNA that’s identical by descent (IBD for short).

Ralph and Coop identified 1.9 million of these long shared segments of DNA shared by at least two people in their study. They then used the length of each segment to estimate how long ago it arose from a common ancestor of the living Europeans.

Their results, published today in PLOS Biology, both confirm Chang’s mathematical approach and enrich it. Even within the past thousand years, Ralph and Coop found, people on opposite sides of the continent share a lot of segments in common–so many, in fact, that it’s statistically impossible for them to have gotten them all from a single ancestor. Instead, someone in Turkey and someone in England have to share a lot of ancestors. In fact, as Chang suspected, the only way to explain the DNA is to conclude that everyone who lived a thousand years ago who has any descendants today is an ancestor of every European. Charlemagne for everyone!

If you compare two people in Turkey, you’ll find bigger shared segments of DNA, which isn’t surprising. Since they live in the same country, chances are they have more recent ancestors, and more of them. But there is a rich, intriguing pattern to the number of shared segments among Europeans. People across Eastern Europe, for example, have a larger set of shared segments than people from within single countries in Western Europe. That difference may be the signature of a big expansion of the Slavs.

Ralph and Coop’s study may provide a new tool for reconstructing the history of humans on every continent, not just Europe. It will also probably keep people puzzling over the complexities of genealogy.


How does God distinguish genetic Jews from genetic Jews?

It matters not one whit.

Because God has only two covenant criteria.

Two spiritual genes.

Faith and obedience.

Abraham's Spiritual DNA.

And nothing else.
 
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rwb

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No saints are physically dead, nor under a literal alter. The whole point is they are redeemed.

They are enjoying Paradise in permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

It's comments such as this that make me reluctant to reply to your illogic! When a human, any human (saved & unsaved) physically dies their body returns to dust of the earth that it came from. Believers cannot be physical body after physical death before the last trumpet sounds. That's when the faithful shall be physically resurrected from the graves immortal & incorruptible. And also when the unbelievers shall be resurrected to damnation.

Paradise, according to Scripture is heaven.

Luke 23:43 (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV)
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
 
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Timtofly

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It's comments such as this that make me reluctant to reply to your illogic! When a human, any human (saved & unsaved) physically dies their body returns to dust of the earth that it came from. Believers cannot be physical body after physical death before the last trumpet sounds. That's when the faithful shall be physically resurrected from the graves immortal & incorruptible. And also when the unbelievers shall be resurrected to damnation.

Paradise, according to Scripture is heaven.

Luke 23:43 (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV)
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Obviously your doctrine cannot prevent those from already enjoying their God given incorruptible permanent physical bodies.

They are, and there is really nothing we post on earth that can change that.

This verse you cannot put in your posts, nor have you once addressed:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."


To be absent from this body, means the soul is present with Christ in this body of God.
 

The Light

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There is a 7 year period
It is the great tribulation
No. There is a 7 year period
It is the 70th week of Daniel

.that is WHY it the 7 yr gt is shortened for the Jew.
"Those days", the 7 yr gt, are shortened.
We see it broken up in 2 sections.
The great tribulation is shortened because if it was not there would be no flesh saved. Most think that means there will be no one left alive on the earth. That is not correct. It means if the days were not shortened, there would be no believers alive to be raptured and receive salvation in the flesh. All believers would be killed before the second harvest.

Wrath ALWAYS has tribulation.
ALWAYS.
And yet the tribulation being talked about is what Satan brings against believers. The Great Tribulation is when the seed of the woman is hunted down to be killed AFTER the abomination of desolation is set up. The tribulation ENDS at the 6th seal. It is marked by the sings of the sun, moon and stars.

Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet sounds. Wrath is what God brings against unbelievers. The wrath of God from the time the first trumpet is blown until the armies of heaven return to the earth, lasts ONE YEAR.

The 4 Horsemen are released from heaven and kick off the gt.
No. The four horsemen are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The Great Tribulation does not begin until the middle of the week when the AOD is set up.

The innumerable number are billions murdered at the Start of the gt..
So yes the seven yr gt is truly GREAT TRIBULATION right from the start.
Read the milling and destruction of the 4 horsemen
Tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
 

The Light

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There can be no fullness of the Gentiles according to your theology, because according to your theology, "Jacob (the seed of Jacob) is Israel. Not the Gentiles". So Ephraim and Manasseh are also not the seed of Jacob because they were Gentiles born in Egypt to an Egyptian mother.

There can be no fullness of the Gentiles according to your theology, because according to your theology, no Gentile can be the seed of Jacob, the seed of Abraham.

According to your theology - not according to God's first promise to Abraham regarding his seed, nor according to john the Baptist, nor according to Jesus, nor according to Paul or the apostles.
The fig tree has two harvests. FACT.
 

The Light

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Nowhere is this said to happen with Jewish Israel. Their sins are so great, they will die for it. Isaiah 22:14
However; it will be all the Spiritual Israelites of God, Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language, who will go with Jesus into the Millennium. Revelation 7:9
The 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes that are before the throne, prove that the seed of the woman will be regrafted onto the olive tree.

You may not understand that if you erroneously believe that the 144,000 represents anything but those of the 12 tribes.
 

Zao is life

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You are correct and wrong at the same time.
You need those dynamics as one dimenional.
It is like saying concerning Jesus as a lion and a lamb that he is only a lion or he is only a lamb but can't be both. That is what you are doing you are basically saying if you don't see a lion when it says lamb and you don't see a lamb when it says lion, then you don't know your Bible

That's how ridiculous your position is
If you do not read LAMB OF GOD when you read JESUS, and if you do not read LION OF JUDAH when you read JESUS, and if you do not read ISRAEL/JACOB, NEW JERUSALEM, ONE AND ONLY COVENANT WITH GOD (= THE NEW COVENANT), HEAD OF THE CHURCH AND KING OF ISRAEL when you read JESUS, then your theology is warped.
 
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Zao is life

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You have made it clear that you trample under foot the Word of God for mere argument sake. You could at least address the points instead of the one making the post.
Never said "all about the Jews". Your whole post is a warped logical fallacy, and not even a proper argument.
You have made it clear that you make nothing clear in your posts, then. Your posts are very confusing because you seem to be saying one thing one minute and another the next minute. It's not my fault if your posts are confusing.

And I don't say anything regarding the Word of God for argument's sake. If you think that of me then it's because you are super-imposing your own motive and what lies behind some of your arguments onto someone else.
 

PinSeeker

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So the firstfruits are the best...
Yes, the "best" in that they are God's elect.

...and separate from the rest of the harvest?
Well, separate in that these are the ones God has purposed to make holy, His remnant that He is saving unto Himself. His "wheat," from whom the "tares" are separated.

Not just a mere representation of millions from all time?
Well, it's no mere thing. :)

These 144k are the best, after the church is removed, from those still on the earth at the Second Coming.
No, but like I said, you're opinions are very... entertaining. :)

The Church is in heaven.
A large portion of it, yes. With Christ in paradise now, though not physically, and sure to be in the new heaven and new earth with Christ physically after the final Judgment and throughout eternity.

These 144k are with Christ on the earth, at the point of the Second Coming. Jesus is sitting on that glorious throne in Jerusalem in judgment over the sheep and goats. The 144k are the best out of those future sheep, that is the Nation of Israel set apart to rule over the earth.
Ugh. :) The 144.000 that John "sees" in his vision represent the true Jewish ~ of God's Israel ~ heritage of all those that are Christ's, God's elect, that no one can number. All are co-heirs with Christ.

You have replaced this future Millennium with the here and now.
Well, corrected your view of God's millennium, which at Christ's return will have ended. There's no "replacement" ~ or omission, of course ~ of any kind. Those who supposed the millennium of Revelation 20 to be future only ~ either before Christ's return (Postmillennialists) or after (Premillennialists) ~ have "displaced" it, so to speak.

You have replaced this coming Nation of Israel, with the church 1993 years ago.
No, absolutely not. Your idea of "this coming Nation of Israel" is incorrect ~ a terribly flawed idea of God's Israel ~ which goes back far beyond "1993 years ago," and is still being built today, the architect being God Himself.

As we read in Ephesians 2:19-22...

"So then (we) are no longer strangers and aliens, but (we) are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him (we) also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

...and in Hebrews 11:8-10...

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God."

Revelation 7 is the result of the Second Coming, not the result of the first coming.
Ah, well, both, actually. Not two separate times of course, but resulting from both. :) And Revelation 14. And the end of Revelation 19, and the end of Revelation 20. :) Christ's first coming and His crucifixion and death on our behalf accomplished and secured it, and His second coming will finalize and consummate it.

You don't even accept the OT church has been physically enjoying Paradise for the last 1993 years.
Not physically, no. Spiritually yes, but not yet physically; the physical resurrection and the re-embodiment of the as yet still disembodied spirits of all those in Christ who are physically deceased will happen at Christ's return. The same is true regardless of time, so for deceased OT saints (so far longer than 1993 years) and for deceased NT saints. Christ has one Church, of course. But, yes, physically... that will certainly be the case someday... and perhaps very soon, even soon to us (because everything is "soon"... even now... to God). :)

You think the 144k are from the first century...
No, I don't Timtofly. You obviously have not been paying attention. Or... something else... perhaps you've been hearing voices... :)

...denying those literally from the first century are already physically enjoying God's presence in heaven, since the Cross.
Not physically, no. :) But I'm sure they're enjoying it... :)

Like I said, your views are certainly... entertaining. :) Grace and peace to you.
 
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Zao is life

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Not just the first century. The branches were cut off in 720BC. You are still not getting the whole olive tree in sight.

At the Second Coming Israel will be the natural branches of this olive tree that covers the whole history of Israel, starting when God gave that name to Jacob. Paul is not just pointing out the first century, but the whole of history.

Paul just happened to live in the first century, so that is when his thoughts were put into words to read. There will be a millennial kingdom on earth and Israel will reign over all the nations. People will not be joining that nation, because all the nations on earth will be holy, and everlasting righteousness will prevail.

There is no building a kingdom or temple on earth. The church is currently physically assembled in Paradise. That is why it cannot be seen by those on earth. But they can see us on earth as that great crowd of witnesses.
All Paul is saying is that just as in 725 B.C there was a remnant left (who fled to Judah and became amalgamated with the Jews over time, just like Benjamin eventually did), so there is a remnant left who were not broken off from Israel through unbelief in Jesus.

Why people read 100 times more into what Paul said than what he said in Romans 11:1-5, is beyond me. These words in verse 5: "So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace" prove your first sentence to be as confused as almost everything else you said above.

I don't believe in a millennial temple on earth as a physical structure, either. You are answering things I never even said, or brought up. See what I mean about your posts being confusing?

It's not all Israel that will be ruling over Israel (the nations) in the millennium, anyway. The apostles were promised that they will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel, and those who will be beheaded for their testimony to Jesus are the only people who are promised that they will rule over the nations, i.e Jews and Gentiles in Christ after their resurrection.

No mortals.
The New Heavens and New Earth and the millennium commence together. The rebellion at the end will take place because the sons of Adam who in the last Adam have received eternal life will believe at the close of the millennium when Satan is released one more time - like Adam did - that if they rebel against God they will not surely die (which is the lie that implies that man's eternal life/immortality is in himself rather than in Christ, who alone is immortal, who alone has life in Himself).

Whether before or after the resurrection, those who do not abide in the Vine will be cast out. Only in the Vine (Jesus) is there life. No OSAS until after the GWT.

Those who worshiped the beast will not go into the millennium, neither will anyone whose name is not found in the Lamb's Book of Life, and the Bible says nothing about their children surviving into the millennium after the earth is destroyed by fire. The nations you read about in the New Heavens and New Earth and in Revelation 20 are all resurrected saints.
 

Zao is life

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How does Paul being a Jew, establish your ethnic assumption?

LISTEN to what the Apostle Paul says about ethnic Judaism: Galatians chapter 3

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you [a]that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed Galatians 3 NKJVamong you as crucified? 2This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4Have you suffered so [c]many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?


5Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.



The Law Brings a Curse

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”


13Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.



The Changeless Promise

15Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God [e]in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.



Purpose of the Law

19What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.


21Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.



Sons and Heirs

26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
"Only those who are of faith (the faith of Abraham in the Word of God) are the sons of Abraham".

Paul couldn't have made it any clearer.
 

Zao is life

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The 70th week ended circa 34 AD, and tribulation has been continuous since Calvary.
True, but the great tribulation John saw the multitudes in heaven as having come out from is the one Jesus said will be "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Which means it will be even worse than the tribulation experienced by the saints under Nero, or at any other time. Great tribulation (megas thlipsis) is mentioned only three times in the New Testament. First time is the mention in Matthew 24:21-22, last time is the mention in Revelation 7:13-14. In-between is Jesus warning Jezebel and her followers of the church at Thyatira that if they do not repent, He (Jesus) will throw her into great tribulation and will kill her children with death and all the churches will know that he searches the reigns and hearts and will give to everyone according to their works.

I don't understand why people apply (the) great tribulation, mentioned in the context of the end of the Age and return of Christ in Matthew 24, to what Luke called the wrath of God coming upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (in 70 A.D), in Luke 21:23.​
 
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rwb

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This verse you cannot put in your posts, nor have you once addressed:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."


To be absent from this body, means the soul is present with Christ in this body of God.

Why would I leave out this verse? It supports what I've been saying. When our earthly body is dissolved (dies/returns to dust), we have a house in heaven. Not a physical body, but a spiritual body of believers. After the physical body of faithful saints breathes its last, we ascend to heaven a spiritual body, living souls. No longer clothed in physical flesh, but a building of God, an house not made with hands, we are a spiritual body/house prepared for us by Christ.
 

covenantee

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True, but the great tribulation John saw the multitudes in heaven as having come out from is the one Jesus said will be "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Which means it will be even worse than the tribulation experienced by the saints under Nero, or at any other time. Great tribulation (megas thlipsis) is mentioned only three times in the New Testament. First time is the mention in Matthew 24:21-22, last time is the mention in Revelation 7:13-14. In-between is Jesus warning Jezebel and her followers of the church at Thyatira that if they do not repent, He (Jesus) will throw her into great tribulation and will kill her children with death and all the churches will know that he searches the reigns and hearts and will give to everyone according to their works.

I don't understand why people apply (the) great tribulation, mentioned in the context of the end of the Age and return of Christ in Matthew 24, to what Luke called the wrath of God coming upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (in 70 A.D), in Luke 21:23.​
"The great tribulation" appears only in Revelation 7:14.

"The" does not appear in Matthew 24:21.

When Jesus referred to "great tribulation", He was referring to the forthcoming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

That was not "the great tribulation", but there has never been "a great tribulation" to equal the destruction of Jerusalem before or since.

This is corroborated in the historical record by Josephus et al.
 
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