The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rebuilder 454]

Isaiah 66:18b I am coming to gather people out of every nation and they shall see My glory. The vast multitude of Revelation 7:9
Isaiah 66:19 I shall put a sign [Gods mark] on them and those I selected shall go out to the nations to proclaim My glory. The coming Kingdom.

Obviously the angel who shouts over the nations in Revelation 14:6-7 is an allegory for the 144,000.
The 2 Witnesses, Rev 11, will be 2 of the 144,000. They specially preach in Jerusalem.

18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.


You just demonstrated how to miss Isaiah 66.

 

[brightfame52]

His body, us, are "main harvest."
First is literally first.
We are part of the first resurrection.
We are not first fruits...Jesus and the patriarchs who were redeemed from paradise, which was below,resurrected into glorified bodies and went to heaven. Hence first fruits.

The saints took part in Christs Resurrection, And He is the First fruits, Christ the Head, the Saints His Body.

 

[brightfame52]

You must posted verses that show Christ alone as first fruits.
Which is true.
We are main harvest.
As you have shown.

Christ is the firstfruits and His Body the Church is also. Christ and His Body are One Heb 2:11

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Again Eph 5:29-32

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

In fact, thats who will follow the Lamb whitersover He goeth, His Wife Rev 21 9

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul made the distinction that the Jew is dealt with separately.
Also illustrated in the book of Ruth.
2 covenants.
The first is 100% ethnic and race exclusive.
Paul teaches and explains it.
Paul claimed to be a Jew.

You just deceived and confused and trusting in the flesh friend

 

[brightfame52]

The 144000 in Rev 14 is also the Sheep that follow Christ always Jn 10:4,5,27

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

These redeemed Sheep were seperated from the rest of mankind, the goats, the tares, which is why they are first fruits.

This also confirms Particular effectual redemption of a definite people !

 

[rebuilder 454]

That isn't what John wrote. The 144,000 are the First-fruits (Rev. 14:4). This is an Israelite harvest term for the First bodily resurrection event (Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints) to be followed by the next bodily resurrection at Christ's coming.

The four living creatures and the 24 elders were never called the First-fruits as the 144,000 were. You are mixing up John's separate categories.

Matt 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
That was OT saints EXCLUSIVELY resurrected.
Which is pivotal.
None of the OT saints were PURCHASED by the blood, hence, they were preached the gospel while in paradise beneath the earth.
The 144k are first fruit Jews.
I really am amazed something this vivid is determined to be muddied up to protect some doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You just deceived and confused and trusting in the flesh friend

when I see these general personal attacks, it is a sign they can not debate scripture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The 144000 in Rev 14 is also the Sheep that follow Christ always Jn 10:4,5,27

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

These redeemed Sheep were seperated from the rest of mankind, the goats, the tares, which is why they are first fruits.

This also confirms Particular effectual redemption of a definite people !

We can generalize anything into a different meaning.
You just proved it.
Paul considered himself a Jew
I can read it and receive it.
I am not protecting extra biblical doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Christ is the firstfruits and His Body the Church is also. Christ and His Body are One Heb 2:11

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Again Eph 5:29-32

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

In fact, thats who will follow the Lamb whitersover He goeth, His Wife Rev 21 9

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

What????
What do you think you illustrated?
I have shown you that FIRSTFRUITS PRECEDES main harvest.
The 144k are firstfruits.
First fruit jews...impossible to miss that.
I am just reporting verses.
Unfortunately you are going against the bible.
The only explanation that you need that changed, has to be over a doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

i think what we have here is a futile attempt by replacement theology adherents to change the bible.
Seems like it.

 

[brightfame52]

when I see these general personal attacks, it is a sign they can not debate scripture.

You have been shown scripture, but thats not going to help the deceived. May God have mercy on you to show you the truth, thats whats needed. You clearly trusting in the flesh, ethnicity, even if you not a jew yourself, you still put ethnicity into the equation of Salvation, and not Christ alone.

 

[brightfame52]

We can generalize anything into a different meaning.
You just proved it.
Paul considered himself a Jew
I can read it and receive it.
I am not protecting extra biblical doctrine.

More ethnicity, trusting in the flesh, which Paul was delivered from Phil 3:3-5

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

May God have mercy on you and deliver you from trust and confidence of the flesh

 

[brightfame52]

What????
What do you think you illustrated?
I have shown you that FIRSTFRUITS PRECEDES main harvest.
The 144k are firstfruits.
First fruit jews...impossible to miss that.
I am just reporting verses.
Unfortunately you are going against the bible.
The only explanation that you need that changed, has to be over a doctrine.

Christ and His Church are One, If He is the Firstfruit, they are also in Him. He is Sanctified, so are they. He and His Wife are One You also trusting in the flesh, ethnicity in Salvaic matters

 

[3 Resurrections]

Time out! You need to read the verses carefully and understand what was really going on. It is not what you claim that the grave opened at the Cross (Death of Christ).

The "body of saints appeared unto many", just as the word of God reports. But this miracle performed by God, like every other miracle done by God directly or through the Prophets, Christ and the Apostles, was simply a sign pointing to some "deeper" spiritual truth. Note God's Word says the graves were opened and "the body of saints" arose, not the souls. Remember that! God's Word is not incidental or by happenstance, it is every jot and title God-breathed. Because the physical body is the only thing that was down in the grave. Selah! This is a miracle of God in reconstituting the bodies of the saints, that they appeared unto many as a "sign!"

But TS, I agree with this statement of yours above. That's my point. The physical bodies of the 144,000 First-fruits (Matt. 27:52-53) coming to life again in their glorified, incorruptible bodies was a sign and an example of what we all as believers can expect for ourselves as part of our inheritance in Christ. God was providing the example of these Matthew 27:52-53 saints coming to life again to be seen of many as an encouraging goal for all the spiritually-resurrected believers to recognize from then on. Especially for those saints in the first century who were almost immediately going to experience blistering persecution for their faith from the hostile Jewish leadership (including Saul / Paul) and also from the Roman emperor Nero.

It wasn't just Christ the First-fruits who would have that glorified, resurrected body. "For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection." (Rom. 6:5). In the bodily resurrection events from the "First resurrection" to the last resurrection event, God changes the "vile bodies" of His saints so that they are "fashioned like unto His glorious body". (Phil. 3:21). This alteration by a physical resurrection of our bodies into a changed, immortal condition is what Full Preterists deny. I challenge them on this all the time.

The reason why it was only those Jewish Israelite tribal members who participated in the 144,000 First-fruits that were bodily resurrected by Christ on the same day He arose was to show the ethnic Israelite people of Christ's day that their Old Covenant was being changed into the New Covenant which included them also, if they would only get on board with it. Some ethnic Israelites did (the "remnant" Isaiah and Paul spoke of). Most ethnic Israelites at that time didn't, so the main evangelistic emphasis of the gospel began going to the Gentiles, by Paul's ministry in particular.

The tearing of the physical veil of the physical Temple building was a sign signifying the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant in the resurrection of Christ. Obviously did not in 70AD (Sorry Preterists).

Yep, some Preterists do make that mistake, unfortunately.

 

[grafted branch]

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


"the two olive trees" AND "the two candlesticks"


As you see, the "two witnesses" are two of one thing and two of another.




---------------------one witness---------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

We have 4 altogether that compose the "two witnesses".

So what are olive trees?


Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?


"What are these two olive trees"


Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zechariah 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


"These are the two anointed ones"


And olive trees represent anointed people. So, the two olive trees that form ONE WITNESS are two individuals that have been anointed.


Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Two anointed ones. To be anointed simply means to be blessed with the gifts of the Holy spirit, especially with knowledge which includes knowledge of the future known as prophecy. "ones" means individuals, there are two individuals being spoken of.

ones:

1121

01121 ben {bane}

from 01129; TWOT - 254; n m

AV - son 2978, children 1568, old 135, first 51, man 20, young 18,
young + 01241 17, child 10, stranger 10, people 5, misc 92; 4906

1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
1a) son, male child
1b) grandson
1c) children (pl. - male and female)
1d) youth, young men (pl.)
1e) young (of animals)
1f) sons (as characterisation, ie sons of injustice [for un-
righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)
1h) of lifeless things, ie sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
1i) a member of a guild, order, class

----------------one witness--------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


What are the two candlesticks?

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


"and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches"


Candlesticks represent churches which are groups of Christians.







Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.



There are two witnesses because that's what Revelation 11 tells us but that also does not mean the two witnesses are just two people. Scripture says the two witnesses are two candlesticks AND two olive trees. Candlesticks are churches and that's an unknown amount of people, and two olive trees is two anointed prophets which is actually two people but the two churches are much more people. The two olive trees feed olive oil to the candlesticks/churches so their spiritual flame can light their path. Same concept in the parable of the 10 virgins.


Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?


so to add what we know:


Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two [anointed ones], AND the two [churches] standing before the God of the earth.

According to scripture, the two witnesses are two churches (candlesticks) AND two persons (olive trees). One witness is the two churches, the other witness is the two persons. Many believe it is Elijah and Enoch but who they are or aren't is another discussion.




When scripture refers to the two "olive trees" and we learn that olive trees represent "anointed ones" then we know these two olive trees are in fact two "anointed ones" which is simply two anointed people or persons...but there's more:


Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Here only the two olive trees are called the two prophets. Prophets are individuals, in fact they are males. Two male prophets which are anointed by God to give prophetic messages.


Since its also scriptural fact that candlesticks are churches we then have this:


Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees [the two anointed prophets], and the two candlesticks [two churches] standing before the God of the earth.

Thanks for that explanation, I find it interesting. I’m going to have to think about it and take a closer look.

 

[grafted branch]

They went into the physical Holy City Jerusalem and appeared to many, who testified of this, and Matthew penned that testimony.

I just want to clarify, your view is that the physical city of Jerusalem was holy, <40> hagios, after the veil was torn?

Hope many of you find this helpful. Enough for tonight. Good night!

I don’t always agree with you but I do find it helpful that you give detailed explanations of your view.

 

[brightfame52]

The 144000 in Rev 14 is none other than the Church Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

They were redeemed Vs 7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

They are His Inheritance Vs 18

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

 

[grafted branch]

The 144000 in Rev 14 is none other than the Church Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

They were redeemed Vs 7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

They are His Inheritance Vs 18

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

I don’t think anyone would disagree that the 144,000 are saved and if your view is that every saved person throughout history is part of the Church then yes, the 144,000 are the Church. But the disagreement is whether they are the entire Church or not. The fact that 144,000 can be numbered means they aren’t the entire Church of Christ.

XYZ church on earth can know how many members are in that church, all the churches I’ve gone to require something such as a confession of faith at the minimum to become a member. So no human knows the actual count of how many members there are in the entire Church of Christ but almost all churches know exactly how many members there are in their specific church.

 

[brightfame52]

I don’t think anyone would disagree that the 144,000 are saved and if your view is that every saved person throughout history is part of the Church then yes, the 144,000 are the Church. But the disagreement is whether they are the entire Church or not. The fact that 144,000 can be numbered means they aren’t the entire Church of Christ.

XYZ church on earth can know how many members are in that church, all the churches I’ve gone to require something such as a confession of faith at the minimum to become a member. So no human knows the actual count of how many members there are in the entire Church of Christ but almost all churches know exactly how many members there are in their specific church.

Yes it is the entire number of the Church, not one member missing. God can number them, but man cannot, but whatever # it is, its complete to God

 

[grafted branch]

Yes it is the entire number of the Church, not one member missing. God can number them, but man cannot, but whatever # it is, its complete to God

So how do you explain the number 144,000? If it’s meant as a symbolic number that equals the multitude that no man can number then no man can count that symbolic number.

This means no man has the ability to determine what this number means, correct?