The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Keraz]

Your “real truth” is disturbing PUTTING ALL Jews of the synagogue of satan.

It is they who SAY THEY ARE JEWS, (WHO ARE NOT) regarding the Synagogue of satan.

Plenty of JEWS ARE JEWS, and the Synagogue of satan, DOES NOT APPLY TO THEM!

We all know that there are some Messianic Jews, they will be the saved remnant. The others will die. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18
This truth completely destroys the rapture to heaven theory, as that belief needs the Jews on earth undergoing tribulation, while the Church sits up in heaven. Unscriptural, unbelievable and not going to happen

 

[brightfame52]

@Davy

Definitely, yes, IF... they will repent and believe on Jesus Christ.

False, and you obviously dont believe that Christs Death alone effects Salvation for everyone He died for. You are saying it depends on what the sinner does which effects their salvation, their repentance and their believing, therein lies the effectiveness of being saved. Truth is He didn't die for them, and do He never gives them faith nor repentance. Christ as Saviour gives, effects repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[brightfame52]

Because all of mankind has needed redemption since Adam. The church included Abel.

You do not see these as literal humans are all, but all mankind throughout history, of course who have been redeemed. That was your point. Mere symbolism.

It is about Salvation, and the 144000 is the Church, the body of Christ, and dont misrepresent me, I never said anything about the 144 000 symbolizes all mankind, but thy symbolize the Church, since when does the Church denote all mankind ?

 

[rebuilder 454]

YOU Can't stand... that Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 TRUTH that Jesus showed His future return is POST-TRIBULATIONAL!

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Both are pretrib rapture verses.
Thanks for continually showing us a postrib gathering by angels in heaven ,as opposed to the rapture by Jesus in vs 38 and on.
As you point out that gathering of saints in heaven is those raptured years earlier.
Thanks!

 

[Taken]

We all know that there are some Messianic Jews, they will be the saved remnant.

SAVED “remnant” vague.

WARNING @ Keraz….probably too lengthy, (less than 5 minute read), TMI, too in depth, for you…just scroll on by.

SAVED regarding Mortal men is SUBJECTIVE..
* A mans MORTAL Bodily LIFE can be “SAVED” from drowning, and thus his BODY remains MORTALLY ALIVE.
* A mans SOUL SALVATION, ONLY OCCURS “AFTER” a BODILY DEATH…(Physically or having been “crucified” with Jesus, ) PER Jesus’ OFFERING to men, for the LAST 2,000+ years.

There IS a difference BETWEEN, a Believer and a CONFESSED Believer.

A Believer….WILL BE soul saved, AFTER his physical DEATH…”IF” he continues Believing until his physical DEATH.

A SAVED Believer…Has already freely GIVEN his BODY unto DEATH (crucified with Jesus), thus HAS ALREADY received, Salvation of his soul, and quickening of his spirit.

The “SAVED” remnant, is NOT about “Jews OR Gentiles”.
Rather it IS ABOUT ANY LIVING MAN having (UN confessed) BELIEF, or HAVING COME INTO (UN confessed) BELIEF, DURING THE TRIBULATION WHO was NOT (Physically KILLED DURING The Tribulation). ….
* THEY ARE LIVING (un-Confessed), (NON-SOUL SAVED) BELIEVING MORTALS (Jews and Gentiles), which were NOT Physically KILLED, during the TRIBULATION…which ARE the “REMNANT”…
(THEY ARE THEY/ Believing MORTALS who shall REPOPULATE the EARTH (Living, Marrying, Producing mortal children, dying, generation after generation FOR 1,000 years…(none living greater than 120years old)….
(THEY ARE THEY, who occupy the EARTH, (Lands OUTSIDE of Abraham’s Promised Land)….DURING Christ Jesus’ 1,000 Year Reign ON Earth, IN His Kingdom (Abraham’s Promised Land), ON His TRHONE (King David’s Everlasting Throne IN Jerusalem)…
WITH “HIS”; CHURCH MEMBERS (Jew / Gentile IRRELEVANT….) (RELEVANCE IS THOSE HAVING BECOME “soul saved and spirit quickened BeFORE their bodily physical DEATH) and WITH “HIS” HOLY angel Servants, all Occupants OF “HIS” Kingdom.

DURING the 1,000 year REIGN of Christ Jesus…
Mortals WILL…Marry, reproduce offsprings, establish their own towns, cities, Nations, Leaders.
Mortal LEADERS…CAN promote Gods Word.
Mortal LEADERS…CAN deflect from promoting Gods Word.
Mortals CAN…individually Continue believing.
Mortals CAN…individually Stop believing.
Mortals CAN…individually Become soul saved/spirit quickened.

AT the ENDING of Christ Jesus’ 1,000 yr Reign… (Satan, Fallen Angels Having BEEN Removed from the Face of the Earth FOR 1,000 years……ARE ALLOWED to Return to the Face of the Earth. THEY WILL DO WHAT THEY HAVE ALWAYS DONE…
“Cunningly INFLUENCE Mortal men TO REJECT the Lord God, STAND AGAINST Him”….
AND ?
The Mortal Nations OF men…SHALL ALL Come WARRING AGAINST Christ Jesus’ Earthly KINGDOM…
AND ?
Oh, oh, have you forgotten, been unaware, of Christ Jesus’ TWO EDGED SWORD that comes forth out of His Mouth?
It IS HIS TWO SIDED WORD…
* THAT CUTS OFF / SEPARATES / TAKES the bodily LIFE unto Death, SAVES the soul, quickens the spirit of the Mortal FAITHFUL “FROM” the EVIL and WICKED.
* THAT CUTS OFF / KILLS the mortal LIFE of the Mortal WICKED, does NOT save their soul, does not quicken their spirit.

* AND what about the EVIL Satan and EVIL spirit fallen angels WITH Satan?
Remember WHO IS WITH Christ Jesus? His Holy Faithful Angel spirits?

* THEY Battle Satan and his band of Fallen angels, IN the air, and DEFEAT them, and the DEFEATED, Fallen angel spirits, FOREVER CAST into Hell, the abyss, off the face of the earth, away from the air about the earth, to the center of the Earth, FOREVER, in the Lake of Fire, with no power or ability to escape.

We all know that there are some Messianic Jews, they will be the saved remnant.

Your Error. Present Living Messianic Jews will not suffer Gods end of days Tribulations and Wraths during the end of days Tribulations same as those Christians IN Christ are not appointed to those Suffering SENT to Earth BY God, IN those last days.

You have not a clear understanding of the End of Days of this present earth, and doubt you have the ear to hear HOW TO GRASP the understanding According to God.

Every day, End of days…IS not about KEEPING a highlight of JEW and GENTILES….
RATHER solely about individuals Becoming Gods INHERITANCE…(without regard to race, Jew or Gentile, gender, male or female, age, babe or elderly, location, north, south, east, west lands, nations of this world)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Timtofly]

The only garbage and nonsense is that of a fantasy nonexistent pureblooded "natural born offspring of Jacob".

No one has posted that except you and the other poster crying racism.

 

[covenantee]

We are talking about the natural born offspring of Jacob, not the billions of others who have mixed blood

No one has posted that except you and the other poster crying racism.

Your memory is as bad as your dogma.

 

[Davy]

@Davy

False, and you obviously dont believe that Christs Death alone effects Salvation for everyone He died for. You are saying it depends on what the sinner does which effects their salvation, their repentance and their believing, therein lies the effectiveness of being saved. Truth is He didn't die for them, and do He never gives them faith nor repentance. Christ as Saviour gives, effects repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Don't try and put words into my mouth.

I didn't say Jesus would AUTOMATICALLY save the "tares". Nor did I claim how many of them will perish at the future "lake of fire" event, and I know many of them will. NEVERTHELESS... Christ's Salvation is open... to them also, IF.... they will repent and believe on Jesus Christ.

The ONLY ones that Christ's Salvation offer is NOT to are Satan and his angels, as they have already been judged and sentenced to perish.

Amillennialists, an un-Biblical doctrine from the 2nd century Gnostics, are especially guilty of claiming that when Jesus returns, that ALL... the wicked unsaved are destroyed on that day, and then God's new heavens and a new earth timing then begins. They OMIT Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 with His elect over the unsaved. THEREFORE, THOSE DECEIVED BRETHREN HATE ANY IDEA OF THE GOSPEL BEING PREACHED TO THE UNSAVED IN THAT FUTURE "THOUSAND YEARS".

So is that YOUR belief system? because it sounds like it.

 

[Davy]

Both are pretrib rapture verses.

That certainly is a DENIAL of those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scriptures by Lord Jesus, where He revealed His coming will be "Immediately after the tribulation..." per Matthew 24:29.

 

[brightfame52]

Don't try and put words into my mouth.

I didn't say Jesus would AUTOMATICALLY save the "tares". Nor did I claim how many of them will perish at the future "lake of fire" event, and I know many of them will. NEVERTHELESS... Christ's Salvation is open... to them also, IF.... they will repent and believe on Jesus Christ.

The ONLY ones that Christ's Salvation offer is NOT to are Satan and his angels, as they have already been judged and sentenced to perish.

Amillennialists, an un-Biblical doctrine from the 2nd century Gnostics, are especially guilty of claiming that when Jesus returns, that ALL... the wicked unsaved are destroyed on that day, and then God's new heavens and a new earth timing then begins. They OMIT Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 with His elect over the unsaved. THEREFORE, THOSE DECEIVED BRETHREN HATE ANY IDEA OF THE GOSPEL BEING PREACHED TO THE UNSAVED IN THAT FUTURE "THOUSAND YEARS".

So is that YOUR belief system? because it sounds like it.

You said this:

Definitely, yes, IF... they will repent and believe on Jesus Christ.

 

[Davy]

You said this:

I said... IF... !

Do you not know what the word 'IF' means? Is English not your first language?

IF... the unsaved during Christ's future "thousand years" reign REPENT and BELIEVE on Jesus Christ and The Father, then will they be saved by Christ, or just laughed at by Jesus and cast into the "lake of fire" anyway, like you are suggesting?


And I haven't even brought up what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11 about His Jewish brethren which God spiritually blinded away from The Gospel.

Paul told those in Christ to not be conceited in thinking that God is going to destroy all those of Paul's Jewish brethren that have rejected Jesus Christ. Haven't you read that by Apostle Paul, where he said there from the Book of Isaiah that ALL Israel shall be saved?

Well then, since the majority of Jews today still reject Jesus Christ, and Scripture shows the majority of them will remain that way until the day Jesus returns, then WHEN... will their blindness God put upon them be removed so they can HEAR The Gospel with eyes to see, and ears to hear?

ANSWER: only in Christ's future "thousand years" reign will those deceived Jews HEAR The Gospel and make their choice to believe, or not believe.

Those Jews will stand in judgment throughout that "thousand years", and even the "synagogue of Satan" (Satan's servants on earth) will be made then to bow at the feet of Christ's elect in that time, as written (Rev.3:9).

 

[Timtofly]

It is about Salvation, and the 144000 is the Church, the body of Christ, and dont misrepresent me, I never said anything about the 144 000 symbolizes all mankind, but thy symbolize the Church, since when does the Church denote all mankind ?

No. It is about the end of sin and death. The end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The 144k don't choose salvation. God chooses them, and removes them from Adam's corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

They receive the first resurrection without physically dying first. They are on earth with Jesus in Jerusalem as His disciples after the Second Coming.

The church is in heaven as depicted as the great multitude serving God day and night in that heavenly temple since the Cross. The thief was the first NT convert who accepted Christ, and entered Paradise physically that day, already with the first resurrection, and seated in heavenly places.

The church represents all mankind redeemed from every tongue and nation, you know that non ethnic distinction? That has been the case since Abel and every nation since Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

The church represents all mankind, then you say 144k descendants of Jacob represents the church. So the 144k must then not be Jacob's descendants even though that is what John wrote, but represent all mankind as you keep insisting.

You are the one insisting something that John did not explicitly write, that 144k of Jacob's offspring represents all mankind, because you insist they are not Jacob's descendants but the church instead.

The church has already been glorified in the 5th Seal, and these 144k are still on the earth after the church has been completed and glorified.

 

[Keraz]

Every day, End of days…IS not about KEEPING a highlight of JEW and GENTILES….
RATHER solely about individuals Becoming Gods INHERITANCE…(without regard to race, Jew or Gentile, gender, male or female, age, babe or elderly, location, north, south, east, west lands, nations of this world)

Very good and correct.
Explain to us then; why do 'rapture to heaven" believers, such as you are; have to have the Jews on earth undergoing tribulation while you sit up in heaven?
Where does the bible say God will redeem the Jews and where does the Bible say we Christians will be removed from the earth?

The truth is that the Jesus hating Jews will be destroyed and we Christians must endure until the end.

 

[Timtofly]

Your memory is as bad as your dogma.

So is yours: you brought up the mixed multitude:

I explained why the original 12 were all Jews. What don't you understand?

Contrary to Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22; you claim that the 12 tribes were exclusively Jews.

I never claimed anything about Jews. You did.

 

[Taken]

Very good and correct.
Explain to us then; why do 'rapture to heaven" believers, such as you are; have to have the Jews on earth undergoing tribulation while you sit up in heaven?

First of all…having a conversation about Spiritual things, when TWO are not on the same page of what things MEAN…
Body, soul, spirit…no clue what you think those things mean.

Now about Heaven…which is Heaven(S)…
Lower, Mid, High…No clue what you think about the Heaven(S).

Where does the bible say God will redeem the Jews and where does the Bible say we Christians will be removed from the earth?

The term CHRISTIAN, is only mentioned 3 times in Scripture…NOT a highlight.
No clue what you think “Christian” means.
Christian is not mentioned regarding the “catching up”, (and from the Greek, to Latin, to English AKA translated to meaning of the RAPTURE.

Jews are the broad name, modernly, Applicable to ANY STOCK descendants of ANY of the TWELVE TRIBES of ISRAEL.

ISRAEL is the Nation…ISRAELITES are the TRIBESMEN, where ever they LIVE…and called BY GOD…

1 King 6:
[11] And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying,
[12] Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father:
[13] And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.

The truth is that the Jesus hating Jews will be destroyed and we Christians must endure until the end.

There is a difference between UNBELIEF and HATE….I have never Heard a Jew proclaim he HATES Jesus.

Again it is unproductive to attempt a Spiritual Conversation, when there is no clue what words mean to you….AND adding in what you think Jews think, with no evidence, but yet deciding their fate.

 

[covenantee]

So is yours: you brought up the mixed multitude:

You brought up the absurd delusional fantasy of "natural born offspring of Jacob, not the billions of others who have mixed blood".
There are no such animals.
Quintessential pharisaic dispensational racism.

I never claimed anything about Jews. You did.

So now you claim that the offspring of Jacob are not Jews.
So they must be Jacobites.
Scripture, please.
Thanks for all of the guffaws.

 

[covenantee]

I have never Heard a Jew proclaim he HATES Jesus.

Yes, the Pharisees didn't hate Jesus.

They only killed Him.

 

[Timtofly]

So now you claim that the offspring of Jacob are not Jews.

They are Israelites. They were natural branches as long as they were not cut off, in unbelief.

Now they are wild branches, and have to be grafted in, because blindness in part has been placed on Israel.

If you stay with Scripture, and stop making up nonsensical claims, you would prevent giving yourself this alleged headache you keep placing in your own post.

After the 6th Seal, the 144k are descendants of Jacob on earth, restored to the position of Israel, but more than restored. They are removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and sealed in God's permanent incorruptible physical body. And they don't represent the church of the past 6,000 years as you claim.

They are literal humans, like any other physical human being, not some symbolic numbering system, as you claim.

 

[Keraz]

it is unproductive to attempt a Spiritual Conversation, when there is no clue what words mean to you….AND adding in what you think Jews think, with no evidence, but yet deciding their fate.

I thought we were discussing physical things, like the incredible notion of living people being floated up to heaven.
I totally refuted that fable with scriptures like: We must endure until the end and.... spread the Gospel until I Return.

As for the fate of the apostate and Jesus hating Jews, many Prophesies make that perfectly clear; Isaiah 22:14....surely this iniquity shall not be purged from Judah until they die.

Jews are the broad name, modernly, Applicable to ANY STOCK descendants of ANY of the TWELVE TRIBES of ISRAEL.

Not correct.
Maybe it suits your beliefs, but it isn't in general use.

Jews are only from the House of Judah, or people who have converted to Judaism, Today; about 18 million people.
The House of Israel remains scattered around the world and are as many as the sands of the sea. THEY are the majority of the peoples who have accepted Christianity.

 

[brightfame52]

I said... IF... !

Do you not know what the word 'IF' means? Is English not your first language?

IF... the unsaved during Christ's future "thousand years" reign REPENT and BELIEVE on Jesus Christ and The Father, then will they be saved by Christ, or just laughed at by Jesus and cast into the "lake of fire" anyway, like you are suggesting?


And I haven't even brought up what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11 about His Jewish brethren which God spiritually blinded away from The Gospel.

Paul told those in Christ to not be conceited in thinking that God is going to destroy all those of Paul's Jewish brethren that have rejected Jesus Christ. Haven't you read that by Apostle Paul, where he said there from the Book of Isaiah that ALL Israel shall be saved?

Well then, since the majority of Jews today still reject Jesus Christ, and Scripture shows the majority of them will remain that way until the day Jesus returns, then WHEN... will their blindness God put upon them be removed so they can HEAR The Gospel with eyes to see, and ears to hear?

ANSWER: only in Christ's future "thousand years" reign will those deceived Jews HEAR The Gospel and make their choice to believe, or not believe.

Those Jews will stand in judgment throughout that "thousand years", and even the "synagogue of Satan" (Satan's servants on earth) will be made then to bow at the feet of Christ's elect in that time, as written (Rev.3:9).

Doesn't change a thing. You said this:

Definitely, yes, IF... they will repent and believe on Jesus Christ.

By saying this, you are saying their salvation depends on what they do, hence denying that Christs death alone will save them.