The 144,000 before God at the end.

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Timtofly

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@Timtofly


False, Grace is and always for a remnant , its the Election of Grace Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
I am not an universalist any more than John stated:

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"

There are only mankind living on the earth. I never said every human gets redeemed.

We are not talking about the lost. We are talking about the redeemed, but you keep bringing up excuses about every thing else but your denial that the 144k are literal humans on the earth at the Second Coming.
 

TribulationSigns

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Well, yes the Rev.7 Scripture about the 144,000 DOES DECLARE to be ONLY about the literal 'seed' of the children of Israel, even 12,000 out of each tribe of Israel mentioned there.

What you are wanting to believe instead is a speculated theory that the 144,000 represents just any believer on Christ. Maybe you want to believe that too about Christ's promise ONLY for His 12 Apostles that they each would sit upon a future throne over the 12 tribes of Israel? Or maybe you're one those nuts that doesn't even believe the nation of Israel will even exist in Christ's future Kingdom!

If you don't mind me stepping in, @covenantee, I will show how misunderstood @Davy is about the judging the twelve tribes of Israel...

Davy,

Not only you, but Luke 22:29-30 is so widely misunderstood, it's indeed difficult to explain. They were appointed to receive this in the "regeneration," which is man's being born from above a child of God. Regeneration is a re-genesis. A rebirth.

Luke 22:29-30
  • "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
  • That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
The table is furniture that holds food and drink, and in the symbolism of scripture represents a gathering place for spiritual nourishment that the Lord provides for His servants! That's why we "give thanks" at the table, because it represents our partaking of what God has provided for the life-giving sustenance of Salvation. It is a representation of His care over the believers, (Psalms 23:5) not only physically in physical food and drink, but in our spiritual well-being unto salvation.

Christ is explaining that the Kingdom of God, THROUGH THE CHURCH, "is come" and they would sit at the Lord's table and eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood, a "signification" of their provision in salvation as they are spiritually translated into that Kingdom. Spiritually "regenerated!" When Christ said, "that ye may eat and drink at my table, this is what it refers to! The Lord's table.

Matthew 26:26-28
  • "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
  • And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
  • For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
God has appointed to Christ a kingdom already, and Christ is illustrating that He hath also appointed us, the Elect, this kingdom that we "reign with Him." We reign in being regenerated by the spirit. That is why we were born again! We are appointed, sanctified, or set apart unto the service of God when we become saved, that we are a ruling body in Christ. When we are appointed to His kingdom, that is the regeneration act of the spirit.

Matthew 19:28-29
  • "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
  • And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."
Now, exactly when did the Son of man actually shall sit in the throne of his glory? It was right after His death and resurrection to HIS Throne (Revelation 12:5). Christ was put to death, regenerated, ascended to heaven and the throne by God the father, and because of this we also are regenerated and appointed a kingdom! The Greek word for "regeneration" is [paliggenesia], and means "re-birth" or the act of being "born again". Is that not the Christian regeneration? It is from the two root words [palin], meaning a repetition or to repeat (and by implication, "again"), and [genesis] meaning birth or nativity. For example, re-birth or as Christians say, to be born again. The regeneration is the act of Christians being made alive again or "regenerated" from being dead in trespass and sin. They are regenerated to life and reign as Kings and Priests with Christ (Romans 8:10-11). "This" is the Kingdom Christ has appointed to His born again people, and this is the principality in which we rule as kings, having been regenerated!

Granted, there are some Theologians that don't understand how this judgment we were given could possibly be fulfilled, but they neglect that we were "clearly" given "judgment" if we understand Christ's First Resurrection. This was at Christ's first advent when we were given the Spirit of the Word of the living God. As the 12, we were given rule and judgment. And indeed, the Amillennial position would of necessity require this belief if we are going to be faithful and consistent with the context of Revelation chapter 20. Because clearly it says:

Revelation 20:4
  • "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
There is the fulfillment of Christ's words of the regeneration, the kingdom sitting, and judgment of the twelve tribes. Since Amillennialists believe this refers to Christ's first advent, then of necessity the saints have already been given Judgment when they were given the kingdom here (Rev. 20:4), and we have already been given the kingdom (Col. 1:13), and we have already been "regenerated" or reborn from the dead (Titus 3:5), and are already kings who sit at the Lord's table! None of these things are things which has not already been fulfilled if we faithfully follow the scriptures.

Revelation 1:5-6
  • "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
  • And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
Because Christ is the first resurrection from the dead, we also died with Him and in "that" regeneration were given a kingdom, and sit at His table, and eat and drink, and been given judgment!

Titus 3:4-5
  • "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
  • Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"
Allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter, we see how God defines the re-generation He spoke of to His apostles. This is the exact same Greek word regenerated [paliggenesia] found in Christ's promise in Matthew 19:28-29 of a kingdom and rule for the Apostles, and indeed us. Because it refers to the Spiritual rebirth of salvation, not a future event or anything to do with the physical nation of Israel.

SELAH!
 
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brightfame52

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I am not an universalist any more than John stated:

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"

There are only mankind living on the earth. I never said every human gets redeemed.

We are not talking about the lost. We are talking about the redeemed, but you keep bringing up excuses about every thing else but your denial that the 144k are literal humans on the earth at the Second Coming.
The 144 000 is the Church saved by grace. A remnant out of mankind
 
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Davy

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If you don't mind me stepping in, @covenantee, I will show how misunderstood @Davy is about the judging the twelve tribes of Israel...
Brethren in Christ, be careful of listening to these lackeys who try to twist the Scriptures. I never quoted from Luke 22. When I want what I quoted about what Jesus said to His 12 Apostles regarding their assigned rewards in His future Kingdom at His return, I would be referring to the following Scripture...

Matt 19:27-28
27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?"
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me,
in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

So where in the world would some get such a garbage mouth to say Jesus did not really mean... what He said there to Peter?? Would you actually risk your Salvation to one who blatantly tells LIES against that Scripture above, trying to use stupid statements like, "well many have failed in properly translating that", and by that stupid statement means they are calling Jesus Himself a LIAR!

I tell you, the asps on this forum are still very active today, and have come out of the dirt to even call Lord Jesus a LIAR with His Own Word!
 

TribulationSigns

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Brethren in Christ, be careful of listening to these lackeys who try to twist the Scriptures. I never quoted from Luke 22. When I want what I quoted about what Jesus said to His 12 Apostles regarding their assigned rewards in His future Kingdom at His return, I would be referring to the following Scripture...

Matt 19:27-28
27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?"
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me,
in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

So where in the world would some get such a garbage mouth to say Jesus did not really mean... what He said there to Peter?? Would you actually risk your Salvation to one who blatantly tells LIES against that Scripture above, trying to use stupid statements like, "well many have failed in properly translating that", and by that stupid statement means they are calling Jesus Himself a LIAR!

I tell you, the asps on this forum are still very active today, and have come out of the dirt to even call Lord Jesus a LIAR with His Own Word!

Here is a wisdom, when Jesus spoke to Peter or the apostles, He spoke to the church! As Scripture clearly show, We,Elect, upon the foundation of the 12 apostles, we ALL reign in Christ’s kingdom in the regeneration judging 12 spiritual tribes of Israel.

Selah!
 

covenantee

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Brethren in Christ, be careful of listening to these lackeys who try to twist the Scriptures. I never quoted from Luke 22.
Of course you didn't quote it, because it spiritually interprets and affirms the Scripture in Matthew, and simultaneously detonates your own carnalized private interpretation.

Who/What interprets Scripture?

1. You
2. Scripture

Need a hint? :laughing:
 
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Timtofly

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The 144 000 is the Church saved by grace. A remnant out of mankind
The Church is already glorified and complete in Paradise. Revelation 7 tells us that. The 144k are literal humans on the earth, descendant from Jacob, chosen directly by God like the 12 disciples of the Messiah. The 144k are literal individuals who follow the Prince around on the earth for the next thousand years or more.

Once again you imply these 144k represent all humanity redeemed by God waiting in Paradise. You do realize that billions of humans have been serving God in that heavenly temple since 30AD? Billions are a remnant of humanity, not 144k. The 144k are the firstfruits of the Day of the Lord.

The 12 disciples were the firstfruits of the NT church, way smaller than the 144k. The 144k represent the tens of billions who will be born in the next millennium. All part of God's redeemed humanity.
 

brightfame52

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The Church is already glorified and complete in Paradise. Revelation 7 tells us that. The 144k are literal humans on the earth, descendant from Jacob, chosen directly by God like the 12 disciples of the Messiah. The 144k are literal individuals who follow the Prince around on the earth for the next thousand years or more.

Once again you imply these 144k represent all humanity redeemed by God waiting in Paradise. You do realize that billions of humans have been serving God in that heavenly temple since 30AD? Billions are a remnant of humanity, not 144k. The 144k are the firstfruits of the Day of the Lord.

The 12 disciples were the firstfruits of the NT church, way smaller than the 144k. The 144k represent the tens of billions who will be born in the next millennium. All part of God's redeemed humanity.
The 144 000 is the Church saved by grace. A remnant out of mankind. Im afraid you are deceived !
 
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Timtofly

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No verse calls them the exclusive pureblooded genetic offspring of Jacob.

Only racist dispensational delusion.
Why would Scripture incorporate your racist opinions? What is written does not need all your added drama.

Your opinion is wrong on all accounts.
 

covenantee

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Why would Scripture incorporate your racist opinions? What is written does not need all your added drama.

Your opinion is wrong on all accounts.
The inclusion of all who are faithful and obedient to God and His Covenants is the antithesis of racist.

It is the antithesis of the modernist deluded dispensational dogma to which you have sold out.
 

Timtofly

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The inclusion of all who are faithful and obedient to God and His Covenants is the antithesis of racist.

It is the antithesis of the modernist deluded dispensational dogma to which you have sold out.
It is also your argument, and has nothing to do with the Second Coming. Guess how many humans get excluded at the Second Coming?

You are sold out to this fight that only causes division.
 

covenantee

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It is also your argument, and has nothing to do with the Second Coming. Guess how many humans get excluded at the Second Coming?

You are sold out to this fight that only causes division.
Not one of these is excluded:

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Their racial ethnicities are irrelevant.

Their qualifications in God's sight are not determined by being "the offspring of Jacob".

Rather, through faith and obedience in and to God and His Covenants, they have qualified for inclusion in the 144,000.

Dispensationalism's racism is a prime cause of division.

God is not a racist.

Nor can He be contorted into one.
 
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Timtofly

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The 144 000 is the Church saved by grace. A remnant out of mankind. Im afraid you are deceived !
Nope. This opinion perpetrated by perhaps millions of wrongly taught Christians, is still just an opinion passed down like any other cult, and false religion. There is nothing in Scripture that implies nor explicitly states this false assumption and presupposition.

That is not how they are portrayed by John in the few verses that they are even mentioned.

Need I remind you that the Johavah's Witnesses tried to declare themselves the church and the 144k representing the church of all nations on earth? That is what you claim about these 144k, even if you don't think they are literal people, but represent all the redeemed of mankind.

They are a literal 1200 from the named tribes as much as Jesus is a literal human of one of the 12 tribes. They serve Jesus, and follow Him everywhere He goes per Revelation 14. If you symbolize the 144k, you have to symbolize Jesus, that He is not a literal human. They may represent God on the earth, and will do so for the next millenia, but contrary to your false teaching, they are literal humans, no longer bound in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, but redeemed and enjoying God's permanent incorruptible physical body per Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:1 and 1 Corinthians 15:52. They are sealed on the earth after the Second Coming, after the church is glorified and waiting in Paradise.

They are dead in their sinful flesh, and the angels change them per the seal placed in their foreheads, out of death, into everlasting life and righteousness. Romans 11:26-27

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

This verse can only take place at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, and that is when the 144k are redeemed on the earth to go through Jacob's trouble, while the majority of Isreal will be tossed into the LOF as goats. The goats ethnicity will not save them. Only a remnant are saved called the sheep in Matthew 25, along with the 144k. Election is not based on ethnicity, but the necessity of Adam and Eve's offspring to be redeemed. That Paul states clearly: physically born of Jacob, whom God named Israel, were natural branches, in no way makes God racist. They were natural branches under the Covenant given on Mount Sinai between God and Israel. All outside of physical Israel could be spiritually grafted in since Mount Sinai, by for lack of a better word, being "converted" into the Law.

Since the Cross, all mankind is converted into the second birth, via submission to the Holy Spirit. Israel was blinded in part, and their status as natural branches taken away. That put them at enmity per the gospel, but not according to election. It was the offspring of Jacob who had issues. Those redeemed since then should not be the ones going around crying racism and ethnic based redemption. That is a deception of Satan, just to stir up division in the body of Christ.

Changing what John wrote in Revelation 7 and turning those words into your own theological eschatology, and then accusing those in Christ of racism is carnal and at enmity with God.
 

Timtofly

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Because Scriptural truth merits it.

Only to you.

Which is wrong?

1. God is not a racist.
2. God is a racist.

Need a hint? :laughing:
Not talking about racism is much better. It is you who keeps "yelling wolf" all the time.

Where in Scripture does God stipulate we should go around and falsely accuse the brethren? Where in Scripture does God stipulate we should presuppose racism?

Who gives each individual the second birth?

You?

God?