Actual "Mormon" here--
Yes, I've read & studied Galatians 1, many many times. I find it to be one of the most faith confirming chapters of scripture.
(Stopping now to prevent further thread de-rail).
The 144,000 in Revelation 7
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Yes, I've read & studied Galatians 1, many many times. I find it to be one of the most faith confirming chapters of scripture.
(Stopping now to prevent further thread de-rail).
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Right, then it would be sex outside of marriage.
I don't know about you but I didn't remain a virgin for too long. Boys will be boys. What is defiled anyways?
Maybe God has this huge file cabinet of names up in heaven with all the prospective candidates in mind for the 144k. He starts out with many more than that. As these young pure religious Israelites in their teens lose their control when a girl comes along and seduces him (and they do very easily), then God just removes their file from the file cabinet - they are now defiled - lol just kidding! I was defiled at 17.
And Madona would agree with that, she wrote the song, "Like A Virgin"
Sorry ... Just feeling silly today.
Actually isn't it what comes out a person's mouth defiles him?
No, I don't think these verses are applicable to Rev. 7 & 14.
Jer. 14 is about the judgement of Judah (the virgin daughter of His people) in a different time. They were given "famine and the sword" because they sinned, hence they were not virgins.
Lam. 2 is also speaking of punishment against "daughter Zion", daughter Judah, daughter Jerusalem".
What spiritual interpretation would you extrapolate out of these verses?
"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal in the foreheads of the servants of God" Rev. 7:3 >They are born again.
"Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. (Vs. 4) > Nothing symbolic here when a precise number and specific names of tribes are identified - it's literal.
"Then I looked and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mt. Zion
and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads." Rev. 14:1 > Jesus' Second Coming is literal, physical and the location is identified. The angels said He would return in like manner - this is to be taken literally.
"And they sang a new song..." (vs. 3)
> I am working on it, I'll be submitting it soon!
"These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins." (Vs. 4)
> Since "women" is mentioned, a distinction is made. They are not women. The kings, priests, prophets, disciples chosen throughout history were not women either.
What is interesting is the statement: "no lie is found in their mouths, they are blameless."
How could that be? I think God gave us a snapshot of a resurrected person - a pure creature without blame.
Listen, there are scholarly views that claim these 144,000 represent the Church. But that can't be because the Church is the multitude in heaven that no one can number - billions.
For sure I am not one of them, God removed my file long ago - lol.
We just can't answer all the questions. The mysteries will be revealed soon. Revelation was constructed like a transparent, multi-dimensional sphere. As you turn it, you see it from different vantage points. It is not chronological as we read normally in a linear fashion, with each event all lined up in order, one after the other. Chapters 7 & 14 are prime examples that it is not chronological.
I think the trumpets and bowls fall within the scroll with seven seals. This is why there are at least a half dozen views of this book and I think God purposely designed it that way - a mysterious story, an absolute ending with hope and certainty. It also contains a sense of imminence so that every generation could believe that it could happen in theirs.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Hey, don't fret, you are welcome here. Something told me not to address Robert's comment.
Hold onto your belief that Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day, according to the scriptures. I believe that you will find the Bible as the most life changing and influential books of any. It is our saving grace, His WORD that transforms us.
[
As I said, it's not the Mormon NCO and friend I had a problem with. Just the title of your Book.
As I said, it's not the Mormon NCO and friend I had a problem with. Just the title of your Book.
The phrase "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" doesn't mean it replaces the Old Testament or New Testament. Rather, those are all three different testimonies of Christ, singing His praises and teaching of Him.
Well, now you have brought up a problem, because there are Two Testaments in the Bible. Not three. If there is a third or fourth, etc... it is added by man, which means made up by man, or given to man by a cursed angel from heaven (Gal 1:8).
This could also include Islam, although Mormons do not directly reject Jesus as Son of God?
In any case, as the man said, so long as we believe Jesus as Lord, and are washed from sins and forgiven in His blood, then we are ALL following Him to the same place forever: A New Heaven on a New Earth.
Wow, that's a lot. A man after my own heart. Quoting me and responding directly. Thanks much. I can only learn by it, whether agreeing or disagreeing...Which I plan do it when not working for pay.
I would liken your transparent multi-dimensional sphere as one mysterious jigsaw puzzle in heaven, with all the Scriptures of the Bible being the pieces thereof. And Revelation is the Book that makes that heavenly sphere crystal clear. It is the crowning head that all the rest of the Scriptural pieces of the body are shaped into, when they are rightly divided and correctly made sense of..
I.e. the more we certainly know about Revelation as revealed by the Scriptures of the whole Bible, the more it and all the mysteries make perfect sense.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
It is amazing that within the Body of Christ, of those who hold only the Bible as the Word of God, our unity is marginal after reading all these debates on the numerous forums, with different and opposing viewpoints. I was just commenting in another thread how half of Christianity belied in Theistic Evolution. Where the heck is that in the Bible? Might as well put Genesis through the shredder with that view. We also apparently have Christians who carry their Bibles, go to church on Sunday and to the abortion clinics on Monday and march in the Gay parades on Saturday. By their fruit you will know them. David Koresh and Jim Jones carried their Bibles too. The hypocrisy in our history is everywhere. Thanks to a merciful and forgiving God who causes all things to work for good for those who love the Lord, for those who are called to his purpose.
I will say for now that you address something I was considering earlier. Revelation to me is the answering of all questions in the rest of the Bible. It is as the culminating Book, the crown jewel of Scripture, which requires Scripture from all other areas to clarify and confirm it's plain meaning and prophesy.
I dont say hidden meaning, because the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written for the express purpose of uncovering (apokaluptos) the hidden (kaluptos) mystery (Col 1:26) (Rom 16:25), of which there are several mysteries: the mystery of God, Christ, His kingdom, and church (Mark 4:1)(Eph 3:4, 5:32), the mystery of the Godhead, the Trinity (Col 2:2), the mystery of Israel being broken off (Rom 11:25), the mystery of iniquity (2 Thess 2:7) and of godliness (1 Tim 3:16), the mystery of the First resurrection (1 Cor 15:51), the mystery of the stars in Jesus' right hand (Rev 1:20), and the mystery of whore Babylon and the ascended Beast (Rev 17:7).
All these mysteries, hidden (apokalupto) from the foundation of the world are revealed (apokalupto) in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. And they all can be summed up as the mystery of God, which shall be finished with the beginning sound of the 7th trump (Rev 10:7).
My main point being, why would God write a Book with the purpose of uncovering all the hidden mysteries, only to have them made even more mysterious by it? I say Revelation is a lot simpler than it is made out to be, akin to simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor 11:3) Which simplicity in Him is given freely to those in Him, along with the keys to open the seals to the Book ourselves (Matthew 16:19) (Rev 1:12).
Why should it be so strange if we who are equal inheritors of the prophets and apostles, not likewise be inspired of the same Spirit of truth, to know those mysteries as certainly as Luke (Acts 1), Paul, or Peter, or especially as Jesus Himself? I am NOT speaking of inspiration of God to write Scripture, but rather we now have the same inspiration of God given to us freely by His Spirit, to accurately and fully interpret those those same Scriptures. And they are written for our sakes that we might certainly know the hidden things of mystery in Christ Jesus. (Eph 1:9, Eph 3)
So dont sell yourself short and blanketly say we Can't answer all questions. We can answer the ones that Scripture provides, and only contemplate the ones God has not chosen to reveal by Scripture (2 Cor 12:4)(Rev 10:4)
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I don't think Revelation is filled with mysteries, I think man is confused about it, hence all the various viewpoints as a result.
"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."
1 Cor. 13:12
And many argue about the "last trumpet".
This is it.
It's a mystery to me.
I'll try not to, but I just can't.
Yes the mysteries of faith are made known in parables and not created or inspired without a signified understanding.
Yes, now through a glass darkly, but as that day approaches, less dimly?
The last trumpet is sounding now? It is true the 7th trumpet will sound for days (Rev 10:7). And if the last trump is the 7th, then so would the last trump sound for days.
However, the sounding of the last trump is with the 1st resurrection. A bit of a problem for us, if already sounding, and we not hearing?
Also, I would say you are not disqualified from the ranks of the 144,000. Afterall, your sexual defilement has been forgiven and washed clean. You are not defiled with women now. "...forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before."
(or, uh, are you still defiling yourself? Dont have to answer that...
)
As far as I can see, if the 144,000 are the same in Rev 7 & 14, then their standing with Jesus on Mt. Sion means 1 of 2 things:
They are either dead in Christ and present with the Lord on Mt. Sion (2 Cor 5:8), or they are resurrected in immortal bodies with the Lord on Mt. Sion (1 Cor 15:53). Revelation 14 is after they of Rev 7 have finished their testimony on earth... along with the 2 witnesses during the rise of the beast (Rev 11:7)?
In this world we are coming to Mt. Sion (Heb 12:22), they are standing on Mt. Sion with Jesus in heaven.
And so:
they have been presented to Christ as a chaste virgin...(2 Cor 11:2) (men and women)
they have not defiled their garments...(Rev 3:4) with the filthiness of the flesh...(2 Cor 7:1) (Same Greek word in both, as in defilements of the flesh...)
And we can add the fact that God likens ministry to cities and to women, whether New Jerusalem above clothed with the sun, or that great city and whore of a woman Babylon. Resulting at least in a teaching that these dead in Christ, or resurrected saints did not defile themselves with sexual filthiness nor ministerial corruption. They remained strong in the Word (I John 2:14) and holy (chaste) separated to Jesus Christ, in body and spirit and ministry...
Most ministry is about not defiling ourselves as the temple of God, but what ministers ever give warning against allowing ourselves to be defiled by false ministry? Afterall, the context of 1 Cor 3 is about warning them that minister, to take care they do it rightly and not defile God's church, which is His temple on earth.
I find it a distinct and glaring absence of ministerial presentation, that very very few ever speak of the 'rules of ministry' that God places upon us in Scripture and warns us against. There's plenty of ministry about the rule of Christ in our personal lives, which is necessary, but what about the violations of Jesus' rule over His ministry, which throughout the Bible has been a fundamental source of defilement to God's people?
The 1st transgression of a man was preceded by the first error of ministry by a woman.
They are either dead in Christ and present with the Lord on Mt. Sion (2 Cor 5:8), or they are resurrected in immortal bodies with the Lord on Mt. Sion (1 Cor 15:53). Revelation 14 is after they of Rev 7 have finished their testimony on earth... along with the 2 witnesses during the rise of the beast (Rev 11:7)?
In this world we are coming to Mt. Sion (Heb 12:22), they are standing on Mt. Sion with Jesus in heaven.
And so:
they have been presented to Christ as a chaste virgin...(2 Cor 11:2) (men and women)
they have not defiled their garments...(Rev 3:4) with the filthiness of the flesh...(2 Cor 7:1) (Same Greek word in both, as in defilements of the flesh...)
And we can add the fact that God likens ministry to cities and to women, whether New Jerusalem above clothed with the sun, or that great city and whore of a woman Babylon. Resulting at least in a teaching that these dead in Christ, or resurrected saints did not defile themselves with sexual filthiness nor ministerial corruption. They remained strong in the Word (I John 2:14) and holy (chaste) separated to Jesus Christ, in body and spirit and ministry...
Most ministry is about not defiling ourselves as the temple of God, but what ministers ever give warning against allowing ourselves to be defiled by false ministry? Afterall, the context of 1 Cor 3 is about warning them that minister, to take care they do it rightly and not defile God's church, which is His temple on earth.
I find it a distinct and glaring absence of ministerial presentation, that very very few ever speak of the 'rules of ministry' that God places upon us in Scripture and warns us against. There's plenty of ministry about the rule of Christ in our personal lives, which is necessary, but what about the violations of Jesus' rule over His ministry, which throughout the Bible has been a fundamental source of defilement to God's people?
The 1st transgression of a man was preceded by the first error of ministry by a woman.
I would offer the last trump is the last day under the Sun the end of this world system. The Sun and Moon temporal time keepers are under the feet of the chaste virgin bride . I would say the day the resurrection gate is shut, having been opened when Christ said it is finished the veil was rent and graves were opened. the same day as the second death
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Well, brother, my first note is that the sun is not under the feet of the woman in Ch 12. but she is clothed with it.
While I agree that there is a mystery about Old Testament saints being seen on the earth, with the renting of the vail at Jesus's death. Your assertion that the the resurrection gate is shut appears to collide with Paul's rebuke of them that say that the resurrection is past. (2 Tim 2:18).
That of course was in Paul's day. Are you saying that the 1st resurrection is past?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
You pointed out something that I never caught in Rev. 10:7, the word "days". I read it as if it was one trumpet blast. In the days when the seventh angel is about to sound, doesn't necessary mean He is blowing it for days. It just could be describing the time period. As in the days of Noah, people were giving in marriage, etc., but the Ark closed on the day it started to rain. So it could be one blast. ?Yes, now through a glass darkly, but as that day approaches, less dimly?
The last trumpet is sounding now? It is true the 7th trumpet will sound for days (Rev 10:7). And if the last trump is the 7th, then so would the last trump sound for days.
However, the sounding of the last trump is with the 1st resurrection. A bit of a problem for us, if already sounding, and we not hearing?
Also, I would say you are not disqualified from the ranks of the 144,000. Afterall, your sexual defilement has been forgiven and washed clean. You are not defiled with women now. "...forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before."
(or, uh, are you still defiling yourself? Dont have to answer that...
Actually I have a little Jewish blood in me, but I think these will be young studs, from their tribes.
My opinion was it wil be shut on the last day. the same day as second death The resurection gate or door of opportunity was opened when the veil was rent.
She was clothed with the righteousness of Christ as bright as the Sun And the literal sun and moon under her feet its the sign of the end of time the last day The chaste virgin bride of Christ sighnifed as the mother of us in all her being in pain till Christ the seed is formed. Just a Paul was used as a surragte womb (Galatians 4 )
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Revelation 21;22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
And simple is always best, especially in the King's English, where you need no Greek Interpreter god.
The simplicity of Scripture is as the simplicity of Christ Himself (2 Cor 11).
The First Resurrection clearly occurs before the Millennial Kingdom, and so that door is shut at that time.
Unless there are parts of the 1st resurrection phased in over time, as some people suggest. I don't see that in Scripture, but I do see 2 parts of the 1st resurrection: The dead in Christ rise first and them alive are changed: both parts in a moment and twinkling of the eye. (1 Cor 15)(1 Thess 4)
I believe the woman in Rev 12, represents the ministry of God reaching from heaven to the earth, even as her head is in heaven, and her feet on the earth. Ministry is portrayed as a woman and a city with New Jerusalem, Hagar, and the great city Babylon the Whore. (Gal 4)(Rev 17)
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