The 144,000 in Revelation 7

[Gary Urban]

The First Resurrection clearly occurs before the Millennial Kingdom, and so that door is shut at that time.

Unless there are parts of the 1st resurrection phased in over time, as some people suggest. I don't see that in Scripture, but I do see 2 parts of the 1st resurrection: The dead in Christ rise first and them alive are changed: both parts in a moment and twinkling of the eye. (1 Cor 15)(1 Thess 4)

I believe the woman in Rev 12, represents the ministry of God reaching from heaven to the earth, even as her head is in heaven, and her feet on the earth. Ministry is portrayed as a woman and a city with New Jerusalem, Hagar, and the great city Babylon the Whore. (Gal 4)(Rev 17)

Hi Thanks for the reply. I see that a little differently.

I would offer. . The woman is the bride of Christ made up of all the nations of the world, the church, it’s the end of time. The sun and moon the temporal corruption time keepers under her feet.

It has nothing to with the Babylon the Whore not sure where you got that understanding?.

The promise of the first resurrection . . .the opening of the resurrection gate it is repeated twice used to emphasize the matter.

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

One resurrection, two different kinds of death. The resurrection gate that opened in Mathew will close on the last day under the Sun . Today there is no waiting period like the Old Testament saints. To be absent of these earthen bodies of death is to be present in the new heavenly Jerusalem prepared for His bride founded by our husband Christ

 

[robert derrick]

The 12 tribes of Israel in Rev 7 cannot be the 12 tribes of Israel written on the stones of Aaron's breastplate, because their names differ by one: Dan vs Manasseh.

Therefore, the 12 tribes of Israel in Rev 7 cannot be the same tribes, though both are called that of Israel.

Therefore, there is an Israel that is after the flesh (1 Cor 10:18), and there is an Israel of God (Gal 6:16), and the two are not the same.

And so Israel after the flesh is in name only, for the Israel of God is true, and so the tribes who call themselves Israel with names of tribes, are all in name only and not in truth of God, even as they say they are Jews and are not, but are liars in sight of Jesus. (Rev 2:9, 3:9)

Not they that are of Israel in name only are Israel of God. (Rom 9:6)

Nor can they therefore be tribes of Israel, whose names are in name only.

The names of the tribes of the Israel of God in Rev 7 are different from that of the old stone and flesh, because they are not the same tribes nor people.

Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. (Hosea 1)

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2)

Them which were the people of God by seed of flesh are no more of God, and them that were not a people of God are the people of God and counted the seed of promise:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9)

The names of the 12 tribes of the Israel of God in Rev 7 are not for them born after the flesh and written on corruptible stones, but for them that are counted for the seed of Promise by birth of seed of God in the Spirit: they which are grafted in to the holy olive tree of Israel with inward circumcision of heart.

Unless:
1. The 12 tribes of Israel in Rev 7 are the 12 tribes of Israel written upon Aaron's breastplate, and so Scripture is false in Rev 7, since they cannot be changed from those names first written on stone. Likewise they in Rev 7 must be of the priesthood of Levi and not of Christ Jesus.

2. The holy olive tree is not Israel of God. Then what is it? And what is uncircumcision by nature, Gentiles, come in to?

3. The 12 tribes of Israel in Rev 7 are only they grafted in again, who were outward circumcision, and not any of they that were uncircumcision by nature, Gentiles, in which case God is a respecter of persons, choosing and sealing specially they of the flesh and the Spirit over they in the Spirit only. And so there is difference made by God in Rev 7 between Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ, because them after the Spirit only are inferior and not to be compared to them after the Spirit and the flesh.

But there is no such difference, except with men that need such difference, between them after the flesh and the Spirit, and them after spirit only in order to maintain their prophecy of Scripture, that they love dearly by much study and tradition.

 

[Davy]

A Jew is not a Jew outwardly but inwardly, and believers in Jesus are the new seed of promise of Abraham, while the Jews and Israel 'after the flesh' (Romans 9:3)(1 Cor 10:18) have been cut off in unbelief. Them that believe are the new Israel of God (Eph 2:12) and His new holy nation (Ex 19:6)(1 Peter 2:9), not the nation of descendant Jews by the flesh. They have made themselves just another nation and tribe of people on the earth. There is no more 'gentile and Jew', but only believers of Jesus and the nations of the earth.
....

Obviously, some need to go back and actually read what Apostle Paul said...

Rom 3
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, 'That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.'

Paul is pointing out that just become some of the Jews refused to believe that still did not make the faith of God without effect. That applies to God's promises and covenants to the seed of Israel also, they aren't done away with in that Faith like your preachers are wrongly telling you. If they were done away with in Christ, then we Gentiles could not... be joined in with believing Israel in Paul's "commonwealth of Israel" per Ephesians 2.


5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous Who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto His glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) 'Let us do evil, that good may come?' whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Both Jews (i.e., Israelites) and Gentiles are under sin, no difference between them in that.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Just as all are sinners, likewise the righteousness of God by Faith on Jesus Christ is also unto all that believe, no difference in that between the seed of Israel and Gentiles. (Does that mean Paul is saying God's promises and covenants to the seed of Israel ended with that Faith?? Nope. Instead, that idea is from men's doctrines, not God's Word).


24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the Justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

That also means there should be no boasting by Gentiles that they have a more special place in that Faith than the believing seed of Israel.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is He the God of the Jews only? is He not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, Which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
KJV

Thus Paul's idea of the 'law of Faith' is about the righteousness of God through believe on His Son Jesus Christ by Faith, establishes both the believing seed of Israel and believing Gentile the same. But nowhere does Paul say God's promises to Israel ended by that.

 

[Davy]

Paul continues this idea about the promises to Israel in relation to Faith, going all the way back to the days of Abraham, showing the establishing of God's promises through a chosen seed that would eventually include all peoples on that same Faith Abraham had...

Rom 4
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Wait a minute. Did Paul just call Abraham "our father" there, like a patriarch father in Christ's Church? Keep going to find out.

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

If Abraham was justified by works, then he would have the right to claim his glory in that. But the Scripture (Genesis 15) says Abraham believed... God, and by that it was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

The reward for doing a work creates a debut that is owed you. That's not grace, which grace is something freely given not earned by a work.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him That justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Through Faith by believing on Him That justifies the ungodly, that Faith is not of works and is not a debut, so that Faith is counted as righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, 'Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.'

Those whom God does not impute sin, for we are all sinners, those are blessed because God has imputed to them righteousness without works. Now that's His Grace for our Faith on His Son Jesus Christ.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Was this being blessed state only for the circumcision, i.e., the seed of Israel, or also for the Gentiles?

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

God imputed righteousness to Abraham for his Faith before... Abraham was circumcised in his flesh. The token of circumcision was given later, and not subject to this Promise by Faith offered Abraham at the first. Our Heavenly Father did this so that Abraham would be the father (spiritual father) of ALL of those who believe on Jesus Christ, even for the Gentile that is not flesh circumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Paul goes right to the nitty-gritty. God's Promise by Faith that Abraham should be heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but by the righteousness of Faith. Does Paul show God's promises ended by that righteousness of Faith? God forbid no!

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Again, Apostle Paul confirms that the Promise by Faith is to all the seed of Israel, and not only to them, but to all Gentiles too. (For that Promise to have affect, one must believe on Jesus Christ, but that does not affect that the promise is to ALL).

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before Him Whom he believed, even God, Who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Which "seed" is Paul pointing to in that? The seed of Israel? Not just Israel, but to all that believe on Jesus. So if the seed of Israel doesn't matter anymore in Christ like some infer, then why does Paul keep bringing them up here? It's because Paul well knew not all the promises God gave to the seed of Israel were fulfilled yet in his days. They still won't be until after Lord Jesus returns, so there's still a lot written in the OT prophets that is yet to be fulfilled today.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

That was one of God's Promises to Abraham involved in Him imputing righteousness to Abraham. And Abraham didn't waiver, even though he was in his old age and didn't think to be able to have a child. Sarah especially laughed when The Angel of The LORD told her she would have a child in her old age. Yet Abraham believed God would do what He said, and God counted it to Abraham as righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him That raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
KJV

If we also believe on The Father Who raised His Son Jesus Christ from the dead, and died on the cross for us, then that righteousness by Faith is also imputed to us, regardless if we are of the seed of Israel or of the Gentiles.

Yet still, that shows God's Promises to the seed are NOT... done away with in Christ Jesus. Gentiles will be in shock when Jesus comes and they find out how pretty much the majority of the 12 tribes of Israel had believed on Jesus Christ.

 

[robert derrick]

Paul continues this idea about the promises to Israel in relation to Faith, going all the way back to the days of Abraham, showing the establishing of God's promises through a chosen seed that would eventually include all peoples on that same Faith Abraham had...

Rom 4
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Wait a minute. Did Paul just call Abraham "our father" there, like a patriarch father in Christ's Church? Keep going to find out.

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

If Abraham was justified by works, then he would have the right to claim his glory in that. But the Scripture (Genesis 15) says Abraham believed... God, and by that it was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

The reward for doing a work creates a debut that is owed you. That's not grace, which grace is something freely given not earned by a work.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him That justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Through Faith by believing on Him That justifies the ungodly, that Faith is not of works and is not a debut, so that Faith is counted as righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, 'Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.'

Those whom God does not impute sin, for we are all sinners, those are blessed because God has imputed to them righteousness without works. Now that's His Grace for our Faith on His Son Jesus Christ.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Was this being blessed state only for the circumcision, i.e., the seed of Israel, or also for the Gentiles?

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

God imputed righteousness to Abraham for his Faith before... Abraham was circumcised in his flesh. The token of circumcision was given later, and not subject to this Promise by Faith offered Abraham at the first. Our Heavenly Father did this so that Abraham would be the father (spiritual father) of ALL of those who believe on Jesus Christ, even for the Gentile that is not flesh circumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Paul goes right to the nitty-gritty. God's Promise by Faith that Abraham should be heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but by the righteousness of Faith. Does Paul show God's promises ended by that righteousness of Faith? God forbid no!

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Again, Apostle Paul confirms that the Promise by Faith is to all the seed of Israel, and not only to them, but to all Gentiles too. (For that Promise to have affect, one must believe on Jesus Christ, but that does not affect that the promise is to ALL).

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before Him Whom he believed, even God, Who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Which "seed" is Paul pointing to in that? The seed of Israel? Not just Israel, but to all that believe on Jesus. So if the seed of Israel doesn't matter anymore in Christ like some infer, then why does Paul keep bringing them up here? It's because Paul well knew not all the promises God gave to the seed of Israel were fulfilled yet in his days. They still won't be until after Lord Jesus returns, so there's still a lot written in the OT prophets that is yet to be fulfilled today.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

That was one of God's Promises to Abraham involved in Him imputing righteousness to Abraham. And Abraham didn't waiver, even though he was in his old age and didn't think to be able to have a child. Sarah especially laughed when The Angel of The LORD told her she would have a child in her old age. Yet Abraham believed God would do what He said, and God counted it to Abraham as righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him That raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
KJV

If we also believe on The Father Who raised His Son Jesus Christ from the dead, and died on the cross for us, then that righteousness by Faith is also imputed to us, regardless if we are of the seed of Israel or of the Gentiles.

Yet still, that shows God's Promises to the seed are NOT... done away with in Christ Jesus. Gentiles will be in shock when Jesus comes and they find out how pretty much the majority of the 12 tribes of Israel had believed on Jesus Christ.

Is there a Jew that is one outwardly only? Is there one inwardly circumcised that is not a Jew?

Are the brethren of the King of Israel not of Israel? Are the children of the God of Israel not children of Israel?

Is the holy olive tree of God, Israel? What are the Gentiles grafted into, come in to?

Your learned mantra sounds the same every time you repeat it.

No preacher ever asked me these things nor gave me these conclusions from them.

Obviously you have never needed deal with these simple questions before, and more obviously you have no answer to them, and most painfully obvious is you only care about your prophesies of Scripture, and don't let Scripture get in the way.

 

[Ziggy]

A Jew is not a Jew outwardly but inwardly, and believers in Jesus are the new seed of promise of Abraham, while the Jews and Israel 'after the flesh' (Romans 9:3)(1 Cor 10:18) have been cut off in unbelief. Them that believe are the new Israel of God (Eph 2:12) and His new holy nation (Ex 19:6)(1 Peter 2:9), not the nation of descendant Jews by the flesh. They have made themselves just another nation and tribe of people on the earth. There is no more 'gentile and Jew', but only believers of Jesus and the nations of the earth.

So, when James wrote to the 12 tribes scattered abroad, that of course was the scattered Christians of the day and today. I.e. the churches of God are the new 12 tribes of Israel.

Now, whether there will be an actual 144,000 Christians specially sealed outwardly in the forehead at some future time, remains to be seen.

However much more important is how Revelation 7 can apply to us that are alive now at this time.

Since we are all sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, then why not acknowledge it in prayer? We see that God seals His saints in the foreheads, when He commands the angels to hold the winds from blowing.

Therefore, perhaps we should likewise seek the 'still' times of God's sealing of us by His Spirit. And know for a certainty how to "Peace, be still". And lay down beside the "still waters" and fear no evil. We should do as the Psalm commands, "Be still, and know that I am God" by knowing personally that we are sealed of God in the times of stillness, especially during times of much tribulation. (Acts 14:22)

So rather than fearing great tribulation or praying we can avoid it, we should rather seek to go through it to enter into the peace and kingdom of God.

(Not that I am praying for it to happen, of course)

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Just prior to this is the sealing of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

I wonder where Christianity would be without the Jews...

Just thinking..
Hugs

 

[robert derrick]

"some of the Jews refused to believe"

All Jews and Gentiles alike were concluded in unbelief at the cross:

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (Rom 11:32)

None stood for Jesus ate Pilate's judgment seat, nor at the cross. Peter boasted to fight for Him and he tried, but in the end he failed Him, as did all others. Jesus was alone on the cross, no believers were with Him at that time. After His resurrection, then believers began to join Him in crucifying the old man, and then if necessary on the cross of man.

All children of Israel by flesh in the Old Covenant were cast away and broken off from Israel, the olive tree of God. And now all grafted in to that olive tree are all Israel of God.

'Israel in part' does not pertain to how many were broken off, but part of the reason for being broken off: One part was simple unbelief and rejection of God. The other part was God's plan to bring the Gentiles that believe into His olive tree: the Israel of God

Unless,

The holy olive tree is not the Israel of God.

 

[robert derrick]

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Just prior to this is the sealing of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

I wonder where Christianity would be without the Jews...

Just thinking..
Hugs

"Just prior to this is the sealing of the 12 tribes of Israel."

True. The learned traditionalists skip over that fact, or cast it aside by sleight of prophetic hand.

And they could not have been the 12 tribes of Israel of the Old Covenant for two reasons:
1. The names would then be false, and not accurately recording them written on the stones of Aaron's breastplate. And since Scripture does not contradict itself, they must be a 12 tribes of Israel different from that of Old. Such as those of the New.

2. This is Scripture in the New Testament after the cross, where God would have all men to be saved, and is not a respecter of persons in His calling, neither to salvation, nor to ministry.

"I wonder where Christianity would be without the Jews..."

Nowhere. Christ needed them to keep the oracles of God, until the fulness of time come, where He would come into the world Himself to confirm the promises of God to Abraham and the fathers.

He came unto His own born of flesh first, and now He comes to all without respect of flesh.

There is no respect of flesh with God anymore, pertaining to His promises, salvation, and prophesies.

Unless,

God is a respecter of persons by birth of flesh.

 

[Ziggy]

You believe there is another 12 tribes of Israel?

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

I also see how some branches such as Dan were cut off and others grafted in such as Manasses,
Who was born of an Egyptian mother.
And yet not all the tribes have the same mother either. Some by wives other by handmaids...

But they all have the same Father. Like we are all the children of God.

The nation of Israel was to be the light unto a dying world.
But they got snared by it and were dying also. The candle was going dim.
And so when Jesus came the torch was once again set aflame, and the Gospel spread around the world,
Just as Israel wondered in the wilderness and in the barren lands,
so must we too bring light unto the a dying world, once again..

Together we are strong
Divided we are weak.

What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder...

There is now neither Jew nor Greek for we are all one in Christ Jesus.
Amen.

Thank You
Hugs

 

[keithr]

So if the seed of Israel doesn't matter anymore in Christ like some infer, then why does Paul keep bringing them up here? It's because Paul well knew not all the promises God gave to the seed of Israel were fulfilled yet in his days. They still won't be until after Lord Jesus returns, so there's still a lot written in the OT prophets that is yet to be fulfilled today.

Indeed. God's promise to restore the nation of Israel was fulfilled in 1948, and Jews have been returning to the land of Israel ever since, as prophesied. So clearly the seed of Israel does still matter to God.

Ezekiel 37 (WEB):
15) Yahweh’s word came again to me, saying,
16) “You, son of man, take one stick, and write on it, ‘For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions.’ Then take another stick, and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions.’
17) Then join them for yourself to one another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.
18) “When the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Won’t you show us what you mean by these?’
19) tell them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in my hand.
20) The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.”’
21) Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they have gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land.
22) I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. One king will be king to them all. They will no longer be two nations. They won’t be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23) They won’t defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. So they will be my people, and I will be their God.
24) “‘“My servant David will be king over them. They all will have one shepherd. They will also walk in my ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25) They will dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers lived. They will dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children’s children, forever. David my servant will be their prince forever.
26) Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them. It will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will place them, multiply them, and will set my sanctuary among them forever more.
27) My tent also will be with them. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
28) The nations will know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is among them forever more.”’”

 

[Waiting on him]

A Jew is not a Jew outwardly but inwardly, and believers in Jesus are the new seed of promise of Abraham, while the Jews and Israel 'after the flesh' (Romans 9:3)(1 Cor 10:18) have been cut off in unbelief. Them that believe are the new Israel of God (Eph 2:12) and His new holy nation (Ex 19:6)(1 Peter 2:9), not the nation of descendant Jews by the flesh. They have made themselves just another nation and tribe of people on the earth. There is no more 'gentile and Jew', but only believers of Jesus and the nations of the earth.

So, when James wrote to the 12 tribes scattered abroad, that of course was the scattered Christians of the day and today. I.e. the churches of God are the new 12 tribes of Israel.

Now, whether there will be an actual 144,000 Christians specially sealed outwardly in the forehead at some future time, remains to be seen.

However much more important is how Revelation 7 can apply to us that are alive now at this time.

Since we are all sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, then why not acknowledge it in prayer? We see that God seals His saints in the foreheads, when He commands the angels to hold the winds from blowing.

Therefore, perhaps we should likewise seek the 'still' times of God's sealing of us by His Spirit. And know for a certainty how to "Peace, be still". And lay down beside the "still waters" and fear no evil. We should do as the Psalm commands, "Be still, and know that I am God" by knowing personally that we are sealed of God in the times of stillness, especially during times of much tribulation. (Acts 14:22)

So rather than fearing great tribulation or praying we can avoid it, we should rather seek to go through it to enter into the peace and kingdom of God.

(Not that I am praying for it to happen, of course)

These 144k are the first fruits redeemed. If they haven’t already been redeemed, then you haven’t been redeemed.

 

[robert derrick]

These 144k are the first fruits redeemed. If they haven’t already been redeemed, then you haven’t been redeemed.

Sounds good to me. They are sealed with the Spirit and are on earth serving Him now, and many sleep, and all shall wake and meet with the lord in the air: Rev 14.

We are headed to mt Sion, and shall stand on Mt Sion, because the Deliverer out of mt Sion has come.

 

[robert derrick]

Indeed. God's promise to restore the nation of Israel was fulfilled in 1948, and Jews have been returning to the land of Israel ever since, as prophesied. So clearly the seed of Israel does still matter to God.

Ezekiel 37 (WEB):
15) Yahweh’s word came again to me, saying,
16) “You, son of man, take one stick, and write on it, ‘For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions.’ Then take another stick, and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions.’
17) Then join them for yourself to one another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.
18) “When the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Won’t you show us what you mean by these?’
19) tell them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in my hand.
20) The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.”’
21) Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they have gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land.
22) I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. One king will be king to them all. They will no longer be two nations. They won’t be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23) They won’t defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. So they will be my people, and I will be their God.
24) “‘“My servant David will be king over them. They all will have one shepherd. They will also walk in my ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25) They will dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers lived. They will dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children’s children, forever. David my servant will be their prince forever.
26) Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them. It will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will place them, multiply them, and will set my sanctuary among them forever more.
27) My tent also will be with them. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
28) The nations will know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is among them forever more.”’”

Well then, thank God for the British. Those lost tribes must indeed have made their way to Britain after all. Who says mythology is dead.

Is there a Jew that is one outwardly only? Is there one inwardly circumcised that is not a Jew?

Are the brethren of the King of Israel not of Israel? Are the children of the God of Israel not children of Israel?

Is the holy olive tree of God, Israel? What are the Gentiles grafted into, come in to?

So long as these challenges from Scripture are answered sufficiently by Scripture, they stand uncontested, with their conclusion:

The Israel of God is all them grafted in and grafted in again by circumcision of the heart in the Spirit of Christ.

The Deliverer out of Sion has come and all Israel of God is now saved:

Now, all that are of Israel are Israel. None enter in thru flesh nor outward circumcision nor feigned faith, and any that turn away from Christ to return to walking after the flesh are broken off as was the physical seed of old.

And if any on on earth abide not still in unbelief, they can be grafted in again, for the fathers' sake.

 

[Waiting on him]

Well then, thank God for the British. Those lost tribes must indeed have made their way to Britain after all. Who says mythology is dead.

Is there a Jew that is one outwardly only? Is there one inwardly circumcised that is not a Jew?

Are the brethren of the King of Israel not of Israel? Are the children of the God of Israel not children of Israel?

Is the holy olive tree of God, Israel? What are the Gentiles grafted into, come in to?

So long as these challenges from Scripture are answered sufficiently by Scripture, they stand uncontested, with their conclusion:

The Israel of God is all them grafted in and grafted in again by circumcision of the heart in the Spirit of Christ.

The Deliverer out of Sion has come and all Israel of God is now saved:

Now, all that are of Israel are Israel. None enter in thru flesh nor outward circumcision nor feigned faith, and any that turn away from Christ to return to walking after the flesh are broken off as was the physical seed of old.

And if any on on earth abide not still in unbelief, they can be grafted in again, for the fathers' sake.

I’d agree strongly, He’s already redeemed yet redeeming all of her/he.

 

[robert derrick]

You believe there is another 12 tribes of Israel?

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

I also see how some branches such as Dan were cut off and others grafted in such as Manasses,
Who was born of an Egyptian mother.
And yet not all the tribes have the same mother either. Some by wives other by handmaids...

But they all have the same Father. Like we are all the children of God.

The nation of Israel was to be the light unto a dying world.
But they got snared by it and were dying also. The candle was going dim.
And so when Jesus came the torch was once again set aflame, and the Gospel spread around the world,
Just as Israel wondered in the wilderness and in the barren lands,
so must we too bring light unto the a dying world, once again..

Together we are strong
Divided we are weak.

What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder...

There is now neither Jew nor Greek for we are all one in Christ Jesus.
Amen.
Thank You
Hugs

"You believe there is another 12 tribes of Israel?"

There is only one called the 12 tribes of Israel by God: The Israel of God.

Israel after the flesh is in name only now. They which were a people called the Israel of God are now not a people of God, but continue in calling themselves Jew and Israel and are liars in sight of God.

He that was Israel, and is not Israel, and yet is still called Israel. (Rev 17:8)

"I also see how some branches such as Dan were cut off and others grafted in such as Manasses,"

All were concluded in unbelief and all were cast away from the Israel of God, being broken off from His holy olive tree. No branches of the oldy physical seed remained in the olive tree of God, but they all cut themselves off by unbelief.

"But they all have the same Father. Like we are all the children of God."

Not like the children of God, who's mother is the New Jerusalem above that is free. Them born after the flesh of Abraham now all have the same mother of bondage, Hagar. Except any repent and believe Jesus and are born of God and grafted in again by the Spirit.

For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all...Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise...So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. (Gal 4:25-31)

"The nation of Israel was to be the light unto a dying world. But they got snared by it and were dying also. The candle was going dim."

And the candle went out completely for 3 days, when that old seed of promise had their own promised Deliverer out of Sion: The Lord God of Israel, crucified.

 

[robert derrick]

I’d agree strongly, He’s already redeemed yet redeeming all of her/he.

True.

And when the fullness of the uncircumcised nations are come in, whether calling themselves Israel and Jew or not, then all Israel that shall ever be Israel shall be saved.

For now all that are of Israel by inward circumcision are Israel of God in deed and in truth, none of the flesh shall come in, and none returning to the flesh shall remain therein.

All Israel is now pure and of God. This was the hope of the prophets, that none rightly called Israel would be enemies of Israel and of God.

All self-ruled nations on earth are now uncircumcised 'Gentiles' in the sight of God, and none of them are justified with God nor have any special promise of God, except to become His seed and people and holy nation on earth by faith of Jesus.

Calling the uncircumcised nations 'Gentiles' is now only a matter of translation: ethnos. Nation, people, tribe.

In the Old and the New Covenant 'Gentiles' are all the uncircumcised nations not worshipping the true God. Christians are not of them, though we be among them in the flesh, as was Jesus. There is no 'Gentile' Christian, who may be called also a Jew, so named by God with inward circumcision of the heart.

"...until the fulness of the nations be come in."

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

A good question would be: how can the Jerusalem that now is on earth, which now answers to Hagar in bondage with her children, be also the 'holy city' of God? It is not. New Jerusalem above is free and of God and mother of us all, and Her court is the earth, the footstool of God, where His temple and throne now is in the Spirit (Rev 11:19), and is on earth in the flesh.

The uncircumcised nations now trample the court of God's temple on earth, and with the resurrection of His people, His temple will be opened in heaven for all left on earth to see. They see us now in the flesh, but they shall see us then in the Spirit, when our natural bodies will be made spiritual and immortal.

If we don't turn from God's temple to become a court trampler again after the flesh.

 

[Davy]

Is there a Jew that is one outwardly only? Is there one inwardly circumcised that is not a Jew?

Are the brethren of the King of Israel not of Israel? Are the children of the God of Israel not children of Israel?

Is the holy olive tree of God, Israel? What are the Gentiles grafted into, come in to?

Your learned mantra sounds the same every time you repeat it.

No preacher ever asked me these things nor gave me these conclusions from them.

Obviously you have never needed deal with these simple questions before, and more obviously you have no answer to them, and most painfully obvious is you only care about your prophesies of Scripture, and don't let Scripture get in the way.

blah, blah, blah, total rubbish from men's doctrines.

 

[Davy]

Indeed. God's promise to restore the nation of Israel was fulfilled in 1948, and Jews have been returning to the land of Israel ever since, as prophesied. So clearly the seed of Israel does still matter to God.

Ezekiel 37 (WEB):
15) Yahweh’s word came again to me, saying,
16) “You, son of man, take one stick, and write on it, ‘For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions.’ Then take another stick, and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions.’
17) Then join them for yourself to one another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.
18) “When the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Won’t you show us what you mean by these?’
19) tell them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in my hand.
20) The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.”’
21) Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they have gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land.
22) I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. One king will be king to them all. They will no longer be two nations. They won’t be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23) They won’t defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. So they will be my people, and I will be their God.
24) “‘“My servant David will be king over them. They all will have one shepherd. They will also walk in my ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25) They will dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers lived. They will dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children’s children, forever. David my servant will be their prince forever.
26) Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them. It will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will place them, multiply them, and will set my sanctuary among them forever more.
27) My tent also will be with them. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
28) The nations will know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is among them forever more.”’”

Well, really that's what some think, that those Old Testament prophecies about the restoration of Israel were fulfilled in 1948, but they were not really. The only ones returning are Jews that represent the old southern kingdom of Judah. The ten lost tribes of Israel were not known as Jews, and they lost their identity by God's hand when He scattered them first. This Ezekiel 37 chapter is specific that BOTH 'houses', the 3 tribe "house of Judah" (Jews) and... the 10 tribe "house of Israel" will be gathered together back to the holy land of promise, to the places where God promised their fathers.

The places where the Jews in the state of Israel dwell today is very small compared to the original promised land which God gave their fathers, from the river of Egypt to the great river Euphrates (Genesis 15:18). In Ezekiel 47 & 48 is the final layout, which has yet to happen, and won't until Jesus returns.

 

[Ziggy]

And the candle went out completely for 3 days, when that old seed of promise had their own promised Deliverer out of Sion: The Lord God of Israel, crucified.

They were keeping watch..
I don't believe the candle went out.
Because when that light shone, there were witnesses to see it.
Peter, James, John, Thomas, Nathanial, the sons of thunder....
the 12 disciples.. like the 12 candles ... The light never went dark, because these were still shining.
Those that crucified him, were none of his.
That old seed of promise was born again in His disciples and all those who hear and believe.
They lost control of the Kingdom the Day Jesus was born, and they saught to kill him while he was still a child.
They knew their time was short and their reign was ending, and so they tried to prolong their life by killing life itself.
They committed suicide.
They didn't want deliverance. They had everything they wanted. That's why they proclaimed Caesar as King.
They didn't want to lose their standing in society. They were criminals and everybody knew it. And they got away with it.
Why would they want a saviour?
Those that were prosecuted and under heavy burdens... these Israelites, God's people..cried.
And God heard them and he brought the Light to save them in the darkness.

That light never died. It is with us here today and will be tomorrow and forever more.

We have that same seed running the world today trying to shut out that light.
And unless we are vigilant, and keep watch, our own light will be snuffed out.

Let's not be like the Saducees and Pharisees that wanted just a little more time to rule the world.
Their days were numbered but they ignored the signs.
They didn't want to let the next course to have it's place.

Everything is timing.. and everything has a course it travels.
A time to live and a time to die.
A time to sow and a time to reap.

It was time for the changing of the guard.. and they didn't want to let go of their power.

just thinking..
Thank You
Hugs

 

[robert derrick]

They were keeping watch..
I don't believe the candle went out.
Because when that light shone, there were witnesses to see it.
Peter, James, John, Thomas, Nathanial, the sons of thunder....
the 12 disciples.. like the 12 candles ... The light never went dark, because these were still shining.
Those that crucified him, were none of his.
That old seed of promise was born again in His disciples and all those who hear and believe.
They lost control of the Kingdom the Day Jesus was born, and they saught to kill him while he was still a child.
They knew their time was short and their reign was ending, and so they tried to prolong their life by killing life itself.
They committed suicide.
They didn't want deliverance. They had everything they wanted. That's why they proclaimed Caesar as King.
They didn't want to lose their standing in society. They were criminals and everybody knew it. And they got away with it.
Why would they want a saviour?
Those that were prosecuted and under heavy burdens... these Israelites, God's people..cried.
And God heard them and he brought the Light to save them in the darkness.

That light never died. It is with us here today and will be tomorrow and forever more.

We have that same seed running the world today trying to shut out that light.
And unless we are vigilant, and keep watch, our own light will be snuffed out.

Let's not be like the Saducees and Pharisees that wanted just a little more time to rule the world.
Their days were numbered but they ignored the signs.
They didn't want to let the next course to have it's place.

Everything is timing.. and everything has a course it travels.
A time to live and a time to die.
A time to sow and a time to reap.

It was time for the changing of the guard.. and they didn't want to let go of their power.

just thinking..
Thank You
Hugs

"Peter, James, John, Thomas, Nathanial, the sons of thunder....the 12 disciples.. like the 12 candles ... The light never went dark, because these were still shining. Those that crucified him, were none of his."

And which of them stood for Him to the end, as they swore they would? Which spoke up for Him to hazard their lives at Pilate's seat? At the cross? None.

"They were keeping watch.."

No they weren't. The only ones keeping watch were the soldiers at the tomb. And the only ones going to the tomb were the women to anoint His body, not to watch for His resurrection.

While that Light was in the heart of the earth, and His body in the tomb, none were watching for Him, much less witnessing of Him. One of their leaders went back from Him to go a fishin' in his old job again.

We must take God at His Word in Scripture, and rely on Scripture to guide our thinking and believing: They were all concluded in unbelief (Rom 11:32). None of them first preached to, entered in, due to unbelief. (Heb 4:6)

They ALL needed be graft in again, because they were all cast away and broken off by unbelief. If any had not be cast away, then the Old Covenant would have remained in effect for their sake, and Jesus need not die.

Their faith only lasted as long as He was in sight of them, before and after His resurrection. The best of them on the road to Emmaus, only said they supposed He had been the One to come.

They who crucified Him were His enemies, but none of His own received Him to the end, by unbelief: they did not believe Him and His own prophecy of rising again the third day: Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

"That light never died. It is with us here today and will be tomorrow and forever more."

The Light never died nor went out, only His body in the grave, while by the Spirit, that light went underground for three days.

The candle of the seed to shine that Light went out. Completely. Gone away forever. The earth was void of any witness of God.

That seed today 'running around' is not the seed of the father's that were children of Abraham by Sarah, as Isaac. That seed today is that of Abraham and Hagar, as Ishmael, and as that seed persecuted Isaac, so do they now persecute the seed of promise and faith, as you say.

The whole earth went dark for three days, in the deep darkness of Satan: none believed, nor were doing good, no not one. That Scripture only applies to this hour of Satan over earth, because before and after, God has always had to Himself a witness, and He always shall.

Satan is defeated forever, and his deep darkness will never reign over the earth again, because even at the last hour of judgement, with all on earth left in unbelief, there will still be the Lord and His church in the air.

The earth will be darkened by all the clouds in the air, but not plunged into deep darkness as before.