The Abomination of Desolation?

[Bible_Gazer]

N

If the Jews rebuild the Temple in the future, do you think God will view it as a holy place?

No

 

[friend of]

Matthew 24:14 is yet another reason I do not subscribe to Dave L's camp on the matter

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Had the gospel been preached to the whole entire world by 70 AD? Certainly not.

 

[CoreIssue]

Matthew 24:14 is yet another reason I do not subscribe to Dave L's camp on the matter

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Had the gospel been preached to the whole entire world by 70 AD? Certainly not.

Did not happen until the 20th century.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

If the Jews rebuild the Temple in the future, do you think God will view it as a holy place?

No, I don't believe God looks at the Israel that has geographic borders in the middle east. The Israel God looks toward or works through today is spiritual Israel which consists of jews and gentiles. It is also called the anointed church of God which is made up of the anointed of God who will get a resurrection like Jesus and be rewarded with immortality and incorruption. They also are the ones who will be Kings, Priests, and Judges with Jesus in that heavenly Kingdom ruling over the Earth. This is Israel that I believe God recognizes today and I believe, so must all who wish to worship The True God.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Matthew 24:14 is yet another reason I do not subscribe to Dave L's camp on the matter

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Had the gospel been preached to the whole entire world by 70 AD? Certainly not.

+
Col.1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth

 

[CoreIssue]

If the Jews rebuild the Temple in the future, do you think God will view it as a holy place?

Fulfilling the Ezekiel Temple prophecy on the schedule of 1335 days after mid Tribulation Period as indicated in Danielle, yes, God will deem it in a holy place. Christ will be King and the high the priest. The tribe of Levi will once again serve in the temple.

God would not do this if it was not holy.

 

[Enoch111]

In that case, you have just told Christians that there was nothing for Jesus to forgive of those who crucified Him.

Anyone with the slightest acquaintance with the term "Abomination of Desolation" would understand that it could NEVER be associated with Christ under any circumstances. It is strictly associated with the Antichrist, which means that you made an EGREGIOUS BLUNDER. Time to back off.

It would be better for folks to say nothing than misapply Scripture or come up with bizarre ideas which have no basis in Bible truth.

 

[CoreIssue]

No, I don't believe God looks at the Israel that has geographic borders in the middle east. The Israel God looks toward or works through today is spiritual Israel which consists of jews and gentiles. It is also called the anointed church of God which is made up of the anointed of God who will get a resurrection like Jesus and be rewarded with immortality and incorruption. They also are the ones who will be Kings, Priests, and Judges with Jesus in that heavenly Kingdom ruling over the Earth. This is Israel that I believe God recognizes today and I believe, so must all who wish to worship The True God.

Replacement theology

 

[friend of]

Col.1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth

Paul is talking to believers. He's saying that the potential to believe is in the whole world. Romans 10:14

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Replacement theology

You can call it what you want. You can disagree with it, people today ignore too much of the scriptures and they think this is ok. I don't think it ok just because other people thinks it ok. The scriptures show us that the Israel of zgod that we are dealing with today is spiritual Israel, made up of Gentile and Jews.

 

[Dave L]

The accounts by Mark and Luke provide supplemental details. Where Matthew uses “standing in a holy place,” Mark 13:14 says “standing where it ought not.” Luke 21:20 adds Jesus’ words: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.” This helps us to see that the first fulfillment involved the Roman assault on Jerusalem and its temple —a place holy to the Jews but no longer the place holy to Jehovah— which began in 66 C.E. Complete desolation occurred when the Romans destroyed both city and temple in 70 C.E. What was “the disgusting thing” back then? And how did it ‘stand in a holy place’? Answers to these questions will help to clarify the modern-day fulfillment.



6 The Jews thought Daniel 9:26, 27; Daniel 11:31; 12:11 applied to the profanation of the temple by Antiochus IV about 200 years earlier. However, Jesus showed otherwise, urging discernment because “the disgusting thing” was yet to appear and stand in “a holy place.” It is apparent that Jesus was referring to the Roman army that would come in 66 C.E. with distinctive ensigns. Such standards, long in use, were virtual idols and were disgusting to the Jews.*When, though, would they ‘stand in a holy place’? That happened when the Roman army, with its ensigns, attacked Jerusalem and its temple, which the Jews considered holy. The Romans even began to undermine the wall of the temple area. Truly, what had long been disgusting now stood in a holy place! —Isaiah 52:1; Matthew 4:5; 27:53; Acts 6:13.

Since World War I, we have seen the larger fulfillment of Jesus’ sign recorded in Matthew chapter 24. Yet, recall his words: “When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . . standing in a holy place, . . . then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Matthew 24:15, 16) This aspect of the prophecy must have fulfillment in our time too.

The Romans attacked Jerusalem in 66 C.E., but they abruptly withdrew, which allowed Christian “flesh” to be saved. (Matthew 24:22) Accordingly, we expect the great tribulation to begin soon, but it will be cut short for the sake of God’s chosen ones. Note this key point: In the ancient pattern, ‘the disgusting thing standing in a holy place’ was linked to the Roman attack under General Gallus in 66 C.E. The modern-day parallel to that attack —the outbreak of the great tribulation— is still ahead. So “the disgusting thing that causes desolation,” which has existed since 1919, apparently is yet to stand in a holy place.* How will this happen? And how can we be affected?

The book of Revelation describes a future destructive attack on false religion. Chapter 17 outlines God’s judgment against “Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots” —the world empire of false religion. Christendom plays a central part and claims to have a covenant relationship with God. (Compare Jeremiah 7:4.) The false religions, including Christendom, have long had illicit dealings with “the kings of the earth,” but this will end in the desolation of those religions. (Revelation 17:2, 5) At whose hands?

Revelation depicts “a scarlet-colored wild beast” that exists for a time, disappears, and then returns. (Revelation 17:3, 8) This beast is supported by world rulers. Details supplied in the prophecy help us to identify this symbolic beast as a peace organization that came into existence in 1919 as the League of Nations (a “disgusting thing”) and that is now the United Nations. Revelation 17:16, 17 shows that God will yet put it into the hearts of certain human rulers who are prominent in this “beast” to desolate the world empire of false religion. That attack marks the outbreak of the great tribulation.

Since the start of the great tribulation is yet future, is the “standing in a holy place” still ahead of us? Evidently so. While “the disgusting thing” made its appearance early in this century and has, thus, existed for decades, it will take a position in a unique way “in a holy place” in the near future. As first-century followers of Christ must have keenly watched to see how the “standing in a holy place” would develop, so do present-day Christians. Admittedly, we will have to wait for the actual fulfillment to know all the details. Yet, it is noteworthy that in some lands there is already a detectable and growing antipathy toward religion. Some political elements, in league with former Christians who have deviated from the true faith, are promoting hostility against religion in general and true Christians in particular. (Psalm 94:20, 21; 1 Timothy 6:20, 21)

After foretelling ‘the standing of the disgusting thing in a holy place,’ Jesus warned discerning ones to act. Did he mean that at that late point —when “the disgusting thing” is “standing in a holy place”— many people will flee from false religion and take up true worship? Hardly. Consider the first fulfillment. Jesus said: “Let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains. Let the man on the housetop not come down, nor go inside to take anything out of his house, and let the man in the field not return to the things behind to pick up his outer garment. Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! Keep praying that it may not occur in wintertime.” —Mark 13:14-18.

Jesus did not say that only those in Jerusalem needed to withdraw as if his point was that they needed to get out of the center of Jewish worship; nor did his warning mention changing religion —fleeing from the false and taking up the truth. Jesus’ disciples certainly needed no warning about fleeing from one religion to another; they had already become true Christians. And the attack in 66 C.E. did not motivate practices of Judaism in Jerusalem and throughout Judea to abandon that religion and accept Christianity.

How, then, did the comparatively small number of chosen ones back then act on Jesus’ advice? By leaving Judea and fleeing to the mountains across the Jordan, they showed that they were no part of the Jewish system, politically or religiously. They left fields and homes, not even gathering their possessions from their houses. Confident of the protection and support of Jehovah, they put his worship ahead of everything else that might seem important. —Mark 10:29, 30; Luke 9:57-62.

Consider, now, the larger fulfillment. We have for many decades been urging people to get out of false religion and to take up true worship. (Revelation 18:4, 5) Millions have done so. Jesus’ prophecy does not indicate that once the great tribulation breaks out, masses will turn to pure worship; certainly, there was no mass conversion of Jews in 66 C.E. Yet, true Christians will have great incentive to apply Jesus’ warning and flee.

We must be certain that our refuge continues to be Jehovah and his mountainlike organization. (2 Samuel 22:2, 3; Psalm 18:2; Daniel 2:35, 44) That is where we will find protection! We will not imitate the masses of mankind who will flee to “the caves” and hide “in the rock-masses of the mountains” —human organizations and institutions that may remain for a very short while after Babylon the Great are desolated. (Revelation 6:15;18:9-11) True, times may get more difficult —as they would have been in 66 C.E. for pregnant women who fled Judea or for anyone who had to travel in cold, rainy weather. But we can be sure that God will make survival possible. Let us even now reinforce our reliance on Jehovah and his Son, now reigning as King of the Kingdom.

I think if we understand Daniel as written, without a gap in the 70 weeks, we can see the great tribulation of 70 AD as aimed at the wicked Jews. And look no further. It's when we adopt Dispensationalist views we create false prophecy by misusing already fulfilled prophecy, saying there is more.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Stephen was tribulated as well as John the Revelator said he was.
The Jews were tribulated by the Romans.

Revelation does not call it "The Great Tribulation"
It just said these people came out of great tribulation.
John in Rev.7 sees a different groups of people in white robes, the angel said "who are these people."
The other group was the bride.
so this other group would be people from the start of the millennium to the end of it.
What kind of great tribulation they face we will have to wait on that.

Some other thoughts

 

[Enoch111]

Revelation does not call it "The Great Tribulation"

As a matter of fact, it does.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I said to him, "Sir, you know." Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:14)

The Greek text is quite clear. It says "the tribulation, the great", meaning the great one, which Jesus said had never occurred and will never occur again.

 

[CoreIssue]

As a matter of fact, it does.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I said to him, "Sir, you know." Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:14)

The Greek text is quite clear. It says "the tribulation, the great", meaning the great one, which Jesus said had never occurred and will never occur again.

Revelation 7:14 New International Version (NIV)
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This is that mid trib between the six and seventh seals, all the trumpets and bowls are still yet to come. Another third of the year's population is yet to die and the second coming in Armageddon are 3 1/2 years off.

So great tribulation does not mean the greatest tribulation ever to be seen. It means the greatest to that point in time.

 

[Enoch111]

I think if we understand Daniel as written, without a gap in the 70 weeks, we can see the great tribulation of 70 AD as aimed at the wicked Jews.

Dave,

You would be further ahead to say nothing about this, since you really do not understand Bible prophecy.

Had the the Great Tribulation occurred in 70 AD, all the heavenly bodies would have disappeared as prophesied, the Second Coming of Christ would have become an accomplished fact, and everything from Revelation 19-22 would have already been fulfilled. Meaning that we would now be in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Only a delusional person would say that this is true, but if you prefer delusion to reality, then at least make that clear.

 

[CoreIssue]

I think if we understand Daniel as written, without a gap in the 70 weeks, we can see the great tribulation of 70 AD as aimed at the wicked Jews. And look no further. It's when we adopt Dispensationalist views we create false prophecy by misusing already fulfilled prophecy, saying there is more.

70 A.D. is not the Tribulation Period. Never called it in all the things that will happen in Tribulation Period did not happen then.

When we understand what historicists claim we understand the the Bible literally, do not understand prophecy and do not understand history.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Dave,

You would be further ahead to say nothing about this, since you really do not understand Bible prophecy.

Had the the Great Tribulation occurred in 70 AD, all the heavenly bodies would have disappeared as prophesied, the Second Coming of Christ would have become an accomplished fact, and everything from Revelation 19-22 would have already been fulfilled. Meaning that we would now be in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Only a delusional person would say that this is true, but if you prefer delusion to reality, then at least make that clear.

I must have missed it somewhere, did Dave say that 70AD was "the great tribulation" or just a tribulation ?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I think if we understand Daniel as written, without a gap in the 70 weeks, we can see the great tribulation of 70 AD as aimed at the wicked Jews. And look no further. It's when we adopt Dispensationalist views we create false prophecy by misusing already fulfilled prophecy, saying there is more.

I believe that certain scriptures have more than one fulfillment, not just happening during the time of Jesus or his Apostles.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

As a matter of fact, it does.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I said to him, "Sir, you know." Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:14)

The Greek text is quite clear. It says "the tribulation, the great", meaning the great one, which Jesus said had never occurred and will never occur again.

Oh... I didn't read that in some other bibles.
I have read in other bibles it just says "great tribulation"

 

[ScottA]

Anyone with the slightest acquaintance with the term "Abomination of Desolation" would understand that it could NEVER be associated with Christ under any circumstances. It is strictly associated with the Antichrist, which means that you made an EGREGIOUS BLUNDER. Time to back off.

It would be better for folks to say nothing than misapply Scripture or come up with bizarre ideas which have no basis in Bible truth.

Nice try, "calling evil good and good evil"... (this has been foretold).

No, what evil men have meant for evil, God has meant for good. Nonetheless, what has happened to Christ at the hands of evil men...was the greatest of evil, all evil, the greatest the world shall ever know, in one abominable act which makes desolate. Which was before the foundation of the world, but made manifest at the appointed time, at the has of evil men.