The Absolute Equality of Jesus With The Father
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Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Who said that ???
I said same name and perfect unity - someone else said different person (which is heresy)
the Father is a different Person to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. There are not one and the same Person
Hey Carl, sleeping about this time, not here in Florida.
I have a commentary I devised for you of the words you highlighted in red.
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(Isa 9:6) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
(Isa 9:7) Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. (ESV)
The context of these two verses of Isaiah 9:6-7, is about the future King of the throne of David. Judah’s current enemies were to the North, Israel and Assyria.
The child Jesus was born, and a son given, the Son of God. If Jesus was born, he was never or was, or is today divine. He shared divinity because of his Father’s divinity. A son was given. Jesus was bestowed by his Father upon the House of Judah first, then to all nations. He was given to mankind, the spiritual Israel, and still many that do not understand scripture persist in saying the son was God.
After his resurrection from death, the Son of God shall have all authority on the earth and in heaven. He shall be called the blessed, teacher and mediator, the mighty god and the eternal father of the new ages, and the prince of peace.
‘Mighty God’ should be translated as ‘mighty warrior’ or ‘great one.’
Where in scripture had Jesus been called the everlasting Father? Nowhere. I would think that Trinitarians at least would be weary of saying Jesus was any kind of a Father, because their God is composed of the Father and the Son, and their Johnny come lately other person, the Holy Spirit. And they can never be the same person - they stay in their own lanes I would think according to their proponents of this doctrine.
‘Everlasting Father’ should be translated as the eternal father, of the future ages to come since his ascension into heaven. Jesus became the key agent of eternal life. Jesus replaced the original and temporal father, also a Son of God, as he, the 1st Adam, returned to the ‘dust.’ Jesus purchased sinful mankind and became their new permanent father of future ages as the 2nd and last Adam. He became immortal and the gateway for all other to enter in.
Jesus fathered the new creation of believers from mankind. He created the mechanism for it. He became the father of it, this human process from human death to salvation and immortality. He became the Father everlasting, the first and the last or the only one in this specific regard. The first and the last or the only one as spoke of in the Book of Revelation and only in this context. Jesus was the founder, and he is the father of new believers. He was the first of the new creation of human beings given immortality. He was the author of life for all men.
Acts 17:30-31 says that YHWH has appointed a man to judge the world that aligns perfectly with the verses of Isaiah 9:6 and 7
The last part of verse 7 says the zeal of the LORD Almighty will produce this child who will accomplish or be all these things said in these verses. The LORD Almighty will use his Holy Spirit to create this new Son. This is another validation that the LORD is the only God, the only creator, and it is ridiculous and impossible for his created Son to be him.
A source that is very Trinitarian in it comments is the CARM.org. Isaiah 9:6, Is Jesus the Everlasting Father?
Although on this subject of Isaiah 9:6 and in particular the ‘everlasting father’ expression they are fair and balanced.
“When Isaiah 9:6 says that Jesus’ name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, etc., it is not saying that Jesus is the eternal Father, but that he has the characteristics of God. In other words, Jesus has all the attributes of God–including eternality.”
Then they go even further, “In ancient Jewish culture, names had meanings. We can better understand this by noting American Indian names such as “Running Wolf” or “Fighting Bear.” The same with Jewish names. They had meanings. Isaac, for example, means “laughter.” Noah means “rest” or “peace.” So, when Isaiah is speaking of the name of the coming Messiah and says his name will be Mighty God, Eternal Father, etc., it is telling us about the characteristics of the Messiah to come in a prophetic manner.”
As I said earlier, “Jesus is the founding father of a new creation.”
Father of a New Creation
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and G'Day from up over....
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Yes - I claim Jesus is in unity with the Father and the Spirit and the share the same character and the same name.
The terms Father and Son do not accurately represent the mysterious relationship between the persons of the Godhead.
I believe there is no subordination in the relationship and any action taken involves all three persons together in agreement.
The terms Father and Son do not accurately represent the mysterious relationship between the persons of the Godhead.
I believe there is no subordination in the relationship and any action taken involves all three persons together in agreement.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Umbilical Christians call eternal torment, 'death'. Is Jesus still being tormented?
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Which is essentially perfectly Nicean, although the matter of the holy Spirit want settled until a later council. I do not like debating the Godhead, so I'm not arguing with you, but I would like to ask how you respond to the Father's voice being heard, this is My Son, and the obvious declarations of Jesus throughout His ministry that He was doing the Father's will, and was sent by the Father to carry out His purpose? I do agree with you that the Father and Son certainly were in agreement over the plan of salvation, (Jesus was hardly doing something He wasn't happy to accomplish) and they share the same character and purpose, absolutely. Oh, and what do you make of 1 Corinthians 15:23-28?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Okay, first, not umbilical. Unbiblical. But I would imagine you got that.
I'm a Seventh Day Adventist. I despise the doctrine of eternal torment for numerous reasons. The second death does involve torment and pain, but while the punishment of death is forever, the torment and pain isn't. We are not immortal, eternal life is granted only to the saved. The resurrection of life... The saved. Sinners were forbidden to eat of the tree of life that would give them eternal life in the garden, God doesn't change His mind... Death is the wages of sin. Jesus died... He didn't suffer in torment forever, yet we know that the propitiation must be precisely a lawful exchange... His life for ours... Our punishment now His... Not just the death of the body, but the whole person. All these things have been discussed I know and done to death (sorry, can't help myself) on other threads.
Philippians 2: "...thought it not robbery to be equal with God..."
The wonder is also that He was prepared to be "obedient unto death, even the death of the cross".
The wonder is also that He was prepared to be "obedient unto death, even the death of the cross".
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
The plan of Salvation was settled in eternity past - Jesus as a suffering servant took subordination for a time and purpose until it was finished.
From then, Jesus assumed again the full authority of the Godhead.
Why was this necessary? I believe Satan was defeated within the terms of his own covenant. He wanted to dismiss mans role in eternal outcomes and prove humans were little more than animals. That the Holy Spirit would indwell a man must have come as a shock and to see death defeated through a man was his worst nightmare - a proud angelic being with no place in future eternal Godly plans.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
I appreciate that you think about stuff and don't just peddle scripture...
I am no end times sage...
I was involved in inner city ministry and got honest with God about not having a deep concern for the lost.
As usual when honest in prayer, He comes through pretty quick with answers.
Within hours I have a very impacting vision. Being led to the edge of the pit by an angel. It was horrifying - an indescribable stench of repulsiveness just seeing the very rim. I said to the angel holding my hand - do I have to go any closer ? The job was done - no longer did I lack concern for the lost. I shared this later at a youth meeting - there was a stunned silence in the room.
Of interest was that I saw no people in there - I guess it is waiting place for judgement.
Frankly I can only share what I have seen or heard so I have no take on the issue of eternal torment although Jesus does seem to indicate same.
That's about all I can offer - I have asked for and expect revelation that will make me fit to carry the purpose for which I am called.
That is my focus - not for knowledge, but for equipping revelation that establishes the faith to act in obedience in His purpose.
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