The Absolute Equality of Jesus With The Father

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Jesus is not God

Jesus Christ The Great I AM

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus Christ The Great I AM

Jesus is not the Great I Am. Saying I am is a common response that survived to this day.

A few verses earlier a man Jesus healed by the water said I am when asked by the Pharisees. Is everyone God who said I am in the Bible?

The resurrected Jesus said he was going to his God in John 20:17.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Jesus is not the Great I Am. Saying I am is a common response that survived to this day.

A few verses earlier a man Jesus healed by the water said I am when asked by the Pharisees. Is everyone God who said I am in the Bible?

The resurrected Jesus said he was going to his God in John 20:17.

if as you say that Jesus is not God, then He must be a created being like you and I. Show ONE Bible verse that teaches this?

 

[justbyfaith]

if as you say that Jesus is not God, then He must be a created being like you and I. Show ONE Bible verse that teaches this?

Romans 1:3, Isaiah 45:11.

Of course, the latter of these shows that Jehovah has a Maker.

The resurrected Jesus said he was going to his God in John 20:17.

Yes; and God has a God according to Hebrews 1:8-9.

 

[Wrangler]

if as you say that Jesus is not God, then He must be a created being like you and I. Show ONE Bible verse that teaches this?

John 3:16.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes; and God has a God according to Hebrews 1:8-9.

Well, I guess no text will convince you of the error of your dogma.

 

[justbyfaith]

Is everyone God who said I am in the Bible?

The blind man was saying that he was the same man that sat and begged.

Jesus, on the other hand, was making a claim that was recognized by the Pharisees; to the point that they picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy (John 8:59, John 10:31-33).

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, I guess no text will convince you of the error of your dogma.

And, as long as you remain unconvinced of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ, your fate will be that you will die in your sins (John 8:24).

 

[justbyfaith]

John 3:16.

Romans 1:3, Isaiah 45:11.

Of course, the latter of these shows that Jehovah has a Maker.

 

[Wrangler]

And, as long as you remain unconvinced of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ, your fate will be that you will die in your sins (John 8:24).

You make the same false claims repeatedly. I believe Jesus is he - the Messiah - that he says he is. Pretending the scripture supports your position is low.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Romans 1:3, Isaiah 45:11.

Of course, the latter of these shows that Jehovah has a Maker.



Yes; and God has a God according to Hebrews 1:8-9.

Isaiah 54:5 says, "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.". where the Hebrew עֹשַׂיִךְ is in the plural number, "your Makers". More than One Person. Likewise in Ecclesiastes 12:1, "Remember also אֶת־בּוֹרְאֶיךָ", that is "your Creators", again plural. Like אֱלֹהִים, God, in the plural, and Gen 1:26, "נַעֲשֶׂה", "let US make", and "בְּצַלְמֵנוּ", "in OUR Image"

 

[Wrangler]

Jehovah is not in Scripture but is a term invented in the Dark Ages.

Doesn’t change the fact that John 3:16 is proof text that Jesus was created.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Jehovah is not in Scripture but is a term invented in the Dark Ages.

Doesn’t change the fact that John 3:16 is proof text that Jesus was created.

how?

 

[justbyfaith]

You make the same false claims repeatedly. I believe Jesus is he - the Messiah - that he says he is. Pretending the scripture supports your position is low.

Have you ever heard of Paschal's Wager?

I suggest that you google that and then apply it to your interpretation of John 8:24; as well as my interpretation of it.

 

[kcnalp]

Revelation 1:8-20 (NKJV)
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." I am the First and the Last.
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.
Revelation 2:18
18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, ...

Amen! Jesus is the Almighty!

 

[Randy Kluth]

“και παν κτισμα ο εστιν εν τω ουρανω και εν τη γη και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης α εστιν και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων” (Revelation 5:13-14)

"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the blessing, and ALL the honour, and ALL the glory, and ALL the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)

Note the words, “τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω”, “to Him Who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb”, where the Greek conjunction, “και”, is used for “sameness”, with absolute equality. Thus, we read in chapter 22, verse 1: “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb”. The Greek here is very important, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου”, where “του θρονου” (the throne), is in the singular number. God and the Lamb, as “distinct” Persons, are united in Their Rule. This absolute unity, can also be seen in chapter 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall Reign for ever and ever”. Note the end, “He shall Reign”, which in the Greek is, “βασιλευσει”, which is in the singular number. It can refer to “His Christ”, or, to “our Lord and of His Christ”, the latter no doubt being the correct meaning, as seen from the main passage from chapter 5, and 22. Let no one suppose that there is some “subordination” with Jesus Christ to the Father, post-Incarnation, as this is proven as completely wrong from these passages in Revelation.

I completely agree up to this point. But the subordination of the Son to the Father is stated not as a statement of inequality with Deity, but rather, as a recognition that Jesus said he was inferior to the Father. He meant this obviously in the sense that he was the Father's revelation in the form of Man, which is clearly inferior to the Father's omnipotent expression over and above the universe.

These passages are some of the strongest and clearest in the Holy Bible, that speak of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. It also shows His equality with the Father, and further teaches that there are Two Persons in Scripture, Who are equally Almighty God. We read, "to Him Who (Gk, toi) sits on the throne, and to the (Gk, toi) Lamb". Where it is very clear from the Greek text, that two distinct Persons are spoken of, God the Father, and God the Son (the Lamb).

Verse 13 speaks of "every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them", which is nothing less than the entirety of the human race, "every created thing", with no exceptions. Here the entire universe ascribes "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE Might", where in the Greek text, the "article [the]" is repeated with each word, signifying, "whatever blessing, and honour, and glory, and might", there is in the entire universe, as in ALL blessings, honour, glory, might, is here said to belong "to Him that sits on the throne", which is God the Father in this case. So, let us be clear here what is being taught; that, ALL, "THE blessing, and ALL THE honour, and ALL THE glory, and ALL THE might", are said EQUALLY to belong to God the Father, and God the Son. In the Book of Isaiah we read these words: "to whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? (46:5), and in 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images". It is very clear from these passages, that Almighty God would never "share" His glory, praise with another, nor can He ever be compared with, or made equal with anyone. And yet, in the passage in Revelation, this is exactly what the Apostle John, writing under the guiding of the Holy Spirit, has done! It would be nothing short of blasphemy, for the Apostle John, to have written as he did in Revelation 5:13-14, IF, Jesus Christ was a created being, as some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach. How can the Almighty Creator God, be EVER "share" the " blessings, and honour, and glory, and might", with a someone Whom He created? Can the Creator be said to be EQUAL with His creation, IF as some blaspheme, that Jesus is a created being? Jesus Himself says in the Gospel of John, "My Father works until now, and I work" (5:17), which the Jews rightly understood as Jesus "making Himself equal (Gk, isos, "the same in quality". J H Thayer, Greek-English lexicon; "to claim for one's self the nature, rank, authority, which belongs to God, Jn. v.18", p.307. Thayer was a Unitarian, who, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ) to God (toi theoi)", because He had called God, "His OWN Father" (verse 18). Thus is their relationship. And in verse 23, Jesus says something that ONLY someone who was coequal to the Father could ever have said. We read: "That everyone (all humans) should honour (Gk, time, "worship, esteem, honour") the Son, even as (Gk, kathos, "just as, even as", indicating comparision) they honour the Father. He that does not honour the Son, does not honour the Father Who sent Him". Can a created being demand that SAME honour that God the Father is given? Regardless of highly exalted Jesus Christ might have been, if He were a created being, there is NO way that He could ever have used language as He does here, without blaspheming. Even as the Incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ demanded EQUAL “HONOUR” with the Father, though He says that “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). Here is indeed a Great Mystery!

Exactly, the subordination of the Son to the Father is not inequality with Deity. They share the same divine substance so that the Father reveals the sum total of all of His revelations and the Son expresses God in human form. As such, the Son shares in the Father's Deity, and yet confines his revelations to God in human form.

John then goes on to say in verse 14, “And the elders fell down and worshipped”. This “worship” is here directed to BOTH , “to Him Who sits on the throne, AND unto the Lamb”, which further shows that Jesus Christ, post-Incarnation, is 100% COEQUAL, with God the Father, and in the Godhead, His Deity is no “less”, in any way, than the Father. The fact that BOTH are WORSHIPPED TOGETHER, can only be understood to Their being also COESSENTIAL

Also, in Revelation 1:17, and 2:8, we read of Jesus Christ say of Himself, that He is, "the first and the last". Thayer says of the words, "ho protos kai ho eschatos, i.e. the eternal One" (page, 554). Which can ONLY mean that Jesus Christ is UNCREATED, and ETERNAL. Add to this the words of Jesus Christ in chapter 22, “I am THE Alpha and THE Omega, THE First and THE Last, THE Beginning and THE End”. In Isaiah 44:6, we read, “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am THE First and I am THE Last; besides me there is no god”. It is not only impossible for Jesus to have said these words about Himself, IF, as some teach, that He is no more than a mere “created” being, but, it would also be the highest form of blasphemy. However, we are confident from what we read in the Infallible Word of God, that there can be no doubt, that Jesus Christ, IS indeed ALMIGHTY GOD, without beginning or end, as are God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.

I love it! Good word!

 

[Wrangler]

how?

Created is the definition of begotten.

 

[kcnalp]

Created is the definition of begotten.

Who's definition?

 

[Enoch111]

Created is the definition of begotten.

When the Bible speaks of "the only begotten Son of God" it has no reference to reproduction or creation, for the simple reason that the Son of God is also the Creator of the universe (John 1:1-3). So how could one who is the Creator be created? No. God the Word existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit from eternity past. So the more you oppose this truth, the more you dig yourself into the pit of Hell.

 

[kcnalp]

When the Bible speaks of "the only begotten Son of God" it has no reference to reproduction or creation, for the simple reason that the Son of God is also the Creator of the universe (John 1:1-3). So how could one who is the Creator be created? No. God the Word existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit from eternity past. So the more you oppose this truth, the more you dig yourself into the pit of Hell.

Amen!!!
Micah 5:2 (NKJV)
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."