And the Word was God or "a God" (kai theos en ho logos). What most received back from the Society is a letter saying that they do not make known the names of their scholars because they want to maintain their humility. You will hear the same from the J.W. that will visit you at your home. The Jehovah's Witnesses claim that seven Greek scholars in the Watchtower did the New World Translation (NWT). It becomes quite obvious to anyone who knows any Greek or Hebrew that they consider their translation to be in gross errors. Is it a matter of opinion or of scholarship? We will look into this from a historical as well as biblical perspective. From its inception there has been no biblical language scholar residing at Watchtower headquarters. Many who claim to have the ability to translate Greek in fact could not and were caught in their lie. Russell perjured himself under oath in the Russell vs. Ross "defamatory libel" case of March 17, 1913 by first claiming to understand the Greek alphabet. He later admitted he did not know the Greek language in which the Bible was originally written when he was confronted with translating the language. The Watchtower Bible calls the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures one of the best translations to be found. But is it a translation or merely are gross distortions of the actual Greek and Hebrew manuscripts based on these men’s opinions. The FORWARD of the New World Translation in 1961 edition, on page 5 states, "It is a very responsible thing to translate the Holy Scriptures from their original languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, into modern speech ... The translators who have a fear and love of the divine Author of the Holy Scriptures feel especially a responsibility toward Him to transmit his thoughts and declarations as accurately as possible." Have their translators been responsible? Are they true to the original languages? |
The answer of hell and its origins
- Thread starter face2face
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The men that comprised the Translation Committee were not even Greek scholars qualified to translate the Bible. These men were: N.H. Knorr, F. W. Franz the 4th President, A.D. Schroeder, G.D. Gangas and M. Henschel (write to Personal Freedom Outreach, P.O. Box 26062, St. Louis, Missouri 63136 for paper documentation). All met together in these translation sessions. The translation committee requested that the names of the translators remain secret even after their deaths (Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, p. 258).
Franz was asked in a courtroom in Scotland, "Why the secrecy?" he said, "Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto." The attorney replied, "Writers of books and translators do not always get glory and honour for their efforts, do they?" (Pursuer's Proof of Douglas Walsh vs. The Right Honourable James Latham, M.P., P.C., Scottish Court of Sessions, p. 92 Nov. 1954).
In 1954, in a Scotland trial, Fred Franz, then head of the Watchtower Editorial Board, admitted that he himself was the one who had checked the accuracy of the translation and recommended its publication. (Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.88.)
The following is from the trial transcript: -
Franz was asked in a courtroom in Scotland, "Why the secrecy?" he said, "Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto." The attorney replied, "Writers of books and translators do not always get glory and honour for their efforts, do they?" (Pursuer's Proof of Douglas Walsh vs. The Right Honourable James Latham, M.P., P.C., Scottish Court of Sessions, p. 92 Nov. 1954).
In 1954, in a Scotland trial, Fred Franz, then head of the Watchtower Editorial Board, admitted that he himself was the one who had checked the accuracy of the translation and recommended its publication. (Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.88.)
The following is from the trial transcript: -
(Q): Insofar as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that?
(A): I have been authorized to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.
Later, Franz was asked about his own involvement in the translating(Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham
Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.92)
(Q) : Were you yourself responsible for the translation of the Old Testament?
( A ) : Again I cannot answer that question...
Here, under oath, Franz refused to confirm or deny he was the translator of the Hebrew text. Why wouldn't he say that he did not translate the Old Testament? The court also wondered "why" and asked (ibid)
(Q): Why the secrecy?
(A): Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto.
Why is it the writers of the New Testament books identified their authorship by their names, we know they were not seeking honor.
The facts speak for themselves. The real reason would be that the translators could not be checked since they had no qualifications and anyone investigating this could not find anyone to assume responsibility for the translation. A shrewd plan indeed.
According to Raymond Franz, only Fred Franz had "sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self taught In Hebrew." Raymond Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983), 50
Not one of the men had ever studied Greek, and wouldn't know the difference between an alpha or a omega. Only three of the five had even finished high school. Of those three only one went on to College. His name was Fredrick Franz, the same man who became the President of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He did begin at the University of Cincinatti but only completed two years. He then dropped out of College after the first semester in 1913 because he believed what Russell told him, that Christ was returning in 1914. He does not have even the most basic college degree, and certainly does not possess a degree for advanced study of the Bible. In fact, outside of the Watchtower circle Franz is not recognized by anyone as a scholar.
As M. James Penton, a former Jehovah's Witness and historian, has written, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man-Frederick Franz." M. James Penton, Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1985), 174.
The men who make up the "translation committee" were self-appointed men lacking any adequate schooling or background in biblical languages unable to function as Bible Translators. Their purpose was not to translate the Scripture into a modern version of the Bible but to justify their theology to their people and have ammunition against Christianity as it is practiced today.
The New World Translation is a fabrication with no scholarship involved. It was specifically created to make the Bible agree their preconceived theology. It was made for their people to believe WT doctrine and uphold their false belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel not God.
Russell at the time could not deal with hell nor the trinity was relieved when Nelson Barbour, a 2nd Day Adventist, introduced him to Wilson's EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT in 1876. Mr. Wilson never studied Biblical Greek in a college. He was a known follower of John Thomas, founder of the Christadelphians who was another `false prophet'. Neither Thomas nor Wilson believed "THE WORD WAS GOD" in Jn. 1:1. " The text `THE WORD WAS GOD' has been a continuing problem spanning four presidents of Jehovah's Witnesses. Until they finally dealt with it officially from there own made up translation. The Watchtower society bought the plates used to print the Diaglott. The Society did not think it was accurate enough so they ended up tampering with the Greek text in the Diaglott.
After Russell the next president of the Watchtower society Judge Rutherford did not have much to say about the their doctrines from Scripture. But he did do two major things. He changed the name of the organization to Jehovah’s Witnesses. He also changed the 144,000 heavenly class to be split into to classes after they had too many people joining the organization.
Nathan H. Knorr followed as the next president of Jehovah's Witness who was then followed by Frederick W. Franz. Neither one of these men were trained in the original languages of the Bible. Frederick. W. Franz, President of Jehovah's Witnesses, realized the deficiency of the DIAGLOTT, decided to translate his own Bible called THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. Franz never studied biblical or koine Greek. He did not graduate from any college nor did he receive a Rhodes Scholarship as he claims. He translates the phrase "the Word was a god." in his KINGDOM INTERLINEAR he translated "god was the Word." Such a translation created another god. Jn.1:1 which reads "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God", is intentionally mistranslated, "Originally the Word was, and the word was with God, and the Word-was a god," They refer their concept to Moffatt's rendering "the Word was divine." He (Jesus) had all the God like qualities but was not God the creator. (But a creator nonetheless).
Today many Witnesses claimed that Franz was a Rhodes Scholar and a scholar of Hebrew and Greek. The Rhodes Scholarship Trust (Wesleyan University, Middletown, Conn. 06457) stated that Franz was never considered for a Rhodes Scholarship; similarly a Scottish Court of Sessions of Nov. 1954, pp. 102, 103, in which Franz himself testified, made it clear that Franz could not read, speak nor translate the Hebrew language.
Mr. Franz, under oath in a trial in Scotland, was asked: (Walsh Trial, P. 7).
Scottish Court of Sessions in November, 1954.
(Q): I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew ....
(A). Yes.
The next day, he was put to the test. Could he really follow the Bible in Hebrew? Franz was asked to translate a simple Bible text at Genesis 2:4:6
(Q): I think we come to the name Jehovah in the forth verse, don't we, of the second chapter of Genesis ... [page 34]
(A). Yes.
(Q): You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you?
(Remember, Franz had admitted to this the previous day)
(A): I do not speak Hebrew.
(The examiner was surprised to hear this)
(Q): You do not!
(A). No.
Q): Can you, yourself, translate that into Hebrew?
(A): Which?
(Q): That fourth verse of the second chapter of Genesis?
(A): You mean here?
(Q). Yes?
(A): No, I won't attempt to do that.
What Franz "wouldn't attempt" to translate into Hebrew is what many have said as a simple exercise an average first or second-year Hebrew student in seminary would be able to do. Franz could neither speak Hebrew nor translate the English to Hebrew. The President of the Watchtower allowed Jehovah's Witnesses to believe he is a Bible scholar having an education in Biblical languages. The facts show otherwise. He is not a scholar. In fact, there is not one Bible scholar among the Watchtower leaders. There couldn’t be one in good conscience because of their theology and what they have done in their translation.
(A): I have been authorized to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.
Later, Franz was asked about his own involvement in the translating(Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham
Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.92)
(Q) : Were you yourself responsible for the translation of the Old Testament?
( A ) : Again I cannot answer that question...
Here, under oath, Franz refused to confirm or deny he was the translator of the Hebrew text. Why wouldn't he say that he did not translate the Old Testament? The court also wondered "why" and asked (ibid)
(Q): Why the secrecy?
(A): Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto.
Why is it the writers of the New Testament books identified their authorship by their names, we know they were not seeking honor.
The facts speak for themselves. The real reason would be that the translators could not be checked since they had no qualifications and anyone investigating this could not find anyone to assume responsibility for the translation. A shrewd plan indeed.
According to Raymond Franz, only Fred Franz had "sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self taught In Hebrew." Raymond Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983), 50
Not one of the men had ever studied Greek, and wouldn't know the difference between an alpha or a omega. Only three of the five had even finished high school. Of those three only one went on to College. His name was Fredrick Franz, the same man who became the President of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He did begin at the University of Cincinatti but only completed two years. He then dropped out of College after the first semester in 1913 because he believed what Russell told him, that Christ was returning in 1914. He does not have even the most basic college degree, and certainly does not possess a degree for advanced study of the Bible. In fact, outside of the Watchtower circle Franz is not recognized by anyone as a scholar.
As M. James Penton, a former Jehovah's Witness and historian, has written, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man-Frederick Franz." M. James Penton, Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1985), 174.
The men who make up the "translation committee" were self-appointed men lacking any adequate schooling or background in biblical languages unable to function as Bible Translators. Their purpose was not to translate the Scripture into a modern version of the Bible but to justify their theology to their people and have ammunition against Christianity as it is practiced today.
The New World Translation is a fabrication with no scholarship involved. It was specifically created to make the Bible agree their preconceived theology. It was made for their people to believe WT doctrine and uphold their false belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel not God.
Back to the future
Charles T. Russell the founder of the J.W.’s was going to 2nd day Adventists meetings in 1870 as he was interested in prophecy. He met Nelson Barbour, who had announced Christ returned invisibly in 1874. Russell personally meets with Barbour who convinced him of the invisible presence of Christ returned on earth.Russell at the time could not deal with hell nor the trinity was relieved when Nelson Barbour, a 2nd Day Adventist, introduced him to Wilson's EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT in 1876. Mr. Wilson never studied Biblical Greek in a college. He was a known follower of John Thomas, founder of the Christadelphians who was another `false prophet'. Neither Thomas nor Wilson believed "THE WORD WAS GOD" in Jn. 1:1. " The text `THE WORD WAS GOD' has been a continuing problem spanning four presidents of Jehovah's Witnesses. Until they finally dealt with it officially from there own made up translation. The Watchtower society bought the plates used to print the Diaglott. The Society did not think it was accurate enough so they ended up tampering with the Greek text in the Diaglott.
After Russell the next president of the Watchtower society Judge Rutherford did not have much to say about the their doctrines from Scripture. But he did do two major things. He changed the name of the organization to Jehovah’s Witnesses. He also changed the 144,000 heavenly class to be split into to classes after they had too many people joining the organization.
Nathan H. Knorr followed as the next president of Jehovah's Witness who was then followed by Frederick W. Franz. Neither one of these men were trained in the original languages of the Bible. Frederick. W. Franz, President of Jehovah's Witnesses, realized the deficiency of the DIAGLOTT, decided to translate his own Bible called THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. Franz never studied biblical or koine Greek. He did not graduate from any college nor did he receive a Rhodes Scholarship as he claims. He translates the phrase "the Word was a god." in his KINGDOM INTERLINEAR he translated "god was the Word." Such a translation created another god. Jn.1:1 which reads "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God", is intentionally mistranslated, "Originally the Word was, and the word was with God, and the Word-was a god," They refer their concept to Moffatt's rendering "the Word was divine." He (Jesus) had all the God like qualities but was not God the creator. (But a creator nonetheless).
Today many Witnesses claimed that Franz was a Rhodes Scholar and a scholar of Hebrew and Greek. The Rhodes Scholarship Trust (Wesleyan University, Middletown, Conn. 06457) stated that Franz was never considered for a Rhodes Scholarship; similarly a Scottish Court of Sessions of Nov. 1954, pp. 102, 103, in which Franz himself testified, made it clear that Franz could not read, speak nor translate the Hebrew language.
Under oath at a trial in Scotland
As a Bible scholar Franz would have to know the Hebrew Language. Mr. MacMillan, a former leader of the Jehovah's Witnesses, said, "He is also a scholar of Hebrew..."(FAITH ON THE MARCH, 1957, p. 182.)Mr. Franz, under oath in a trial in Scotland, was asked: (Walsh Trial, P. 7).
Scottish Court of Sessions in November, 1954.
(Q): I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew ....
(A). Yes.
The next day, he was put to the test. Could he really follow the Bible in Hebrew? Franz was asked to translate a simple Bible text at Genesis 2:4:6
(Q): I think we come to the name Jehovah in the forth verse, don't we, of the second chapter of Genesis ... [page 34]
(A). Yes.
(Q): You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you?
(Remember, Franz had admitted to this the previous day)
(A): I do not speak Hebrew.
(The examiner was surprised to hear this)
(Q): You do not!
(A). No.
Q): Can you, yourself, translate that into Hebrew?
(A): Which?
(Q): That fourth verse of the second chapter of Genesis?
(A): You mean here?
(Q). Yes?
(A): No, I won't attempt to do that.
What Franz "wouldn't attempt" to translate into Hebrew is what many have said as a simple exercise an average first or second-year Hebrew student in seminary would be able to do. Franz could neither speak Hebrew nor translate the English to Hebrew. The President of the Watchtower allowed Jehovah's Witnesses to believe he is a Bible scholar having an education in Biblical languages. The facts show otherwise. He is not a scholar. In fact, there is not one Bible scholar among the Watchtower leaders. There couldn’t be one in good conscience because of their theology and what they have done in their translation.
So they searched for camaraderie in their unique teaching of a greater and lesser God in Jn.1:1.
F. W. Franz found a translation that agrees with his, THE NEW TESTAMENT by Johannes Greber. (SEE MAKE SURE OF ALL THINGS p. 4891965 revision)
In the Watchtower's assessment the similar wording made the Bible an outstanding example of good translating and Greber became their scholar of choice. The New Testament by Johannes Greber is presented as a legitimate and accurate Bible. Lack of qualified Greek scholarship does not stop the Watchtower from citing support for their translation however. In many of their books and magazines over the years they have cited support from a New Testament translation by Johannes Greber (Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971 edition, pp. 1669, 1134 ). The Kingdom Hall libraries have documentation in their own literature if any Jehovah's Witness will care to seek the truth by examining the evidence.
Both Watchtower publications, MAKE SURE OF ALL THINGS: page 489, and THE WORD WHO IS HE? ACCORDING TO JOHN, page 5, quote Grebers translation to support their own rendering of that verse.
Citing Johannes Greber As an Authority: It is true that Johannes Greber rendered the latter part of John 1:1 as "the Word was a god" (The New Testament, 1937) However, was Greber really a biblical scholar?
Johannes Greber was a known spiritist. He authored the book: COMMUNICATION WITH THE SPIRIT WORLD OF GOD. In this book, Greber claims that spirits helped him in his translation of the New Testament. Greber also saw the translation come by words passing before his eyes.
Greber writes: "After I had convinced myself at the spiritistic meetings that God's spirits speak to men through mediums, as they had spoken to the early Christian communities, my first thought was to beg for full enlightenment on these problems concerning Christ. Who was Christ? My request was granted, to the smallest details, and that knowledge thenceforth constituted the most precious possession of my soul. In what follows, I shall repeat the truths regarding Christ. His life, and his work of Redemption, as they were imparted to me by the spirit which taught them." The spirit said: "At that time you were told that Christ is the highest of the spirits created by God and the sole one to be created directly; Christ Himself was not God, but only the first of God's sons." (COMMUNICATION WITH THE SPIRIT WORLD OF GOD p. 300) It is interesting that this is exactly what Franz the president of Jehovah's Witnesses teaches. Franz also gets information from angels. Mr. F. W. Franz during a court trial in Scotland (1954) was asked these questions under oath. (P. 39-40 from court transcript) FRANZ: Well, we believe that the angels of God are used in directing Jehovah's Witnesses." This is not anything new as Franz was only citing what the J.W’s have taught "the servant class on earth are directed by the Lord through his duly constituted deputies or angels. " (Light. Volume II.1930 p. 20). "Visible human creatures had to do with that message, yet in fact, it was a message of the Lord sent through his invisible angels, because without a doubt these are clothed with authority to direct the course of earthly members of God's organization." (Light Vol.1 l930, p.106).
" Our understanding is that God's foreknowledge of our affairs and interests is gained by methods with which we are acquainted. We may assume, however, that the mediums used are largely the angelic messengers." (Watchtower, 2/15/15, p. 56) Notice the language, is it any wonder that they were open to Grebers translation through spirits.
www.theworldnewsmedia.org
F. W. Franz found a translation that agrees with his, THE NEW TESTAMENT by Johannes Greber. (SEE MAKE SURE OF ALL THINGS p. 4891965 revision)
In the Watchtower's assessment the similar wording made the Bible an outstanding example of good translating and Greber became their scholar of choice. The New Testament by Johannes Greber is presented as a legitimate and accurate Bible. Lack of qualified Greek scholarship does not stop the Watchtower from citing support for their translation however. In many of their books and magazines over the years they have cited support from a New Testament translation by Johannes Greber (Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971 edition, pp. 1669, 1134 ). The Kingdom Hall libraries have documentation in their own literature if any Jehovah's Witness will care to seek the truth by examining the evidence.
Both Watchtower publications, MAKE SURE OF ALL THINGS: page 489, and THE WORD WHO IS HE? ACCORDING TO JOHN, page 5, quote Grebers translation to support their own rendering of that verse.
Citing Johannes Greber As an Authority: It is true that Johannes Greber rendered the latter part of John 1:1 as "the Word was a god" (The New Testament, 1937) However, was Greber really a biblical scholar?
Who was Johannes Greber?
In 1923, Greber, a Roman Catholic priest, became interested in communication with spirit beings. These spirits often spoke through his wife, a spirit medium, and told him the Bible was full of errors.Johannes Greber was a known spiritist. He authored the book: COMMUNICATION WITH THE SPIRIT WORLD OF GOD. In this book, Greber claims that spirits helped him in his translation of the New Testament. Greber also saw the translation come by words passing before his eyes.
Greber writes: "After I had convinced myself at the spiritistic meetings that God's spirits speak to men through mediums, as they had spoken to the early Christian communities, my first thought was to beg for full enlightenment on these problems concerning Christ. Who was Christ? My request was granted, to the smallest details, and that knowledge thenceforth constituted the most precious possession of my soul. In what follows, I shall repeat the truths regarding Christ. His life, and his work of Redemption, as they were imparted to me by the spirit which taught them." The spirit said: "At that time you were told that Christ is the highest of the spirits created by God and the sole one to be created directly; Christ Himself was not God, but only the first of God's sons." (COMMUNICATION WITH THE SPIRIT WORLD OF GOD p. 300) It is interesting that this is exactly what Franz the president of Jehovah's Witnesses teaches. Franz also gets information from angels. Mr. F. W. Franz during a court trial in Scotland (1954) was asked these questions under oath. (P. 39-40 from court transcript) FRANZ: Well, we believe that the angels of God are used in directing Jehovah's Witnesses." This is not anything new as Franz was only citing what the J.W’s have taught "the servant class on earth are directed by the Lord through his duly constituted deputies or angels. " (Light. Volume II.1930 p. 20). "Visible human creatures had to do with that message, yet in fact, it was a message of the Lord sent through his invisible angels, because without a doubt these are clothed with authority to direct the course of earthly members of God's organization." (Light Vol.1 l930, p.106).
" Our understanding is that God's foreknowledge of our affairs and interests is gained by methods with which we are acquainted. We may assume, however, that the mediums used are largely the angelic messengers." (Watchtower, 2/15/15, p. 56) Notice the language, is it any wonder that they were open to Grebers translation through spirits.
NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek
NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek The Watchtower Bible calls the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures one of the best translations to be found. But is it a translation or merely are gross distortions of the actual Greek and Hebrew manuscripts based on these men’s opini...
www.theworldnewsmedia.org
Genesis 3:17-18
Easy-to-Read Version
17 Then God said to the man,“I commanded you not to eat from that tree.
But you listened to your wife and ate from it.
So I will curse the ground because of you.
You will have to work hard all your life for the food the ground produces.
18 The ground will grow thorns and weeds for you.
And you will have to eat the plants that grow wild in the fields.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
What would one expect from the blind leading the blind? It is for anyone coming here who is questioning what they taught them.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
JWs claim it is proof they are being persecuted like the disciples were and is to be expectedWhat would one expect from the blind leading the blind? It is for anyone coming here who is questioning what they taught them.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Nothing like the perscution complex because they are not being physicaly tortured or killed.
Acts 8:1-3
Easy-to-Read Version
8 Saul agreed that the killing of Stephen was a good thing. Some godly men buried Stephen and cried loudly for him.
Trouble for the Believers
On that day the Jews began to persecute the church in Jerusalem, making them suffer very much. Saul was also trying to destroy the group. He went into their houses, dragged out men and women, and put them in jail. All the believers left Jerusalem. Only the apostles stayed. The believers went to different places in Judea and Samaria.
The 50 Countries Where It’s Most Dangerous to Follow Jesus in 2021
Latest report on Christian persecution finds 3 in 4 martyrs are in Nigeria, ranked among 10 worst persecutors for first time.
www.christianitytoday.com
Persecution in the Early Church: A Gallery of the Persecuting Emperors | Christian History Magazine
Christian History Institute (CHI) provides church history resources and self-study material and publishes the quarterly Christian History Magazine. Our aim is to make Christian history enjoyable and applicable to the widest possible audience.
christianhistoryinstitute.org
Early Christian Symbols in the Catacombs
Early christian symbols found in the catacombs including symbology of the Chi-Rho, anchor, good shepherd, fish, peacock, cross, dove, orante, and funerary inscriptions.
Pliny the Younger was governor of Pontus/Bithynia from 111-113 AD. We have a whole set of exchanges of his letters with the emperor Trajan on a variety of administrative political matters. These two letters are the most famous, in which P. encounters Christianity for the first time.
Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.
Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.
They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.
I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.
Pliny, Letters 10.96-97
Pliny to the Emperor Trajan
It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.
Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.
They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.
I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.
Trajan to Pliny
You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age.https://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/pliny.html
Lessons from the Catacombs of Rome
The catacombs located beneath the city of Rome are a wonder of antiquity which reveal much about the early adherents to the Christian faith.
christiancourier.com
Martyrdom and Persecution in the Early Church: A Study of a Conflict from the Maccabees to Donatus
W. H. C. Frend, William Frend
Were the Early Christians Really Persecuted? | Cold Case Christianity
Is early persecution of the Christian Church simply a myth? Are accounts of the apostolic martyrdoms consistent with the ancient 1st and 2nd Century climate?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What is the point of even trying to address all that?
The last person who tried that on went on "ignore" because they are not interested in our response, just in airing what they believe someone on the internet said about us.....Do you not wonder why we get that kind of attention? The desperation to expose those terrible JW's....makes me wonder what we ever did to him personally....or you?
Do you not wonder why he cannot contain himself when it comes to discrediting JW's...? Post after post...a bit like yourself only worse.
A personal agenda perhaps? This is undoubtedly what they did to Jesus and his disciples because he warned us that it would happen (John 15:18-21).....not because they were JW's, but because they were true Christians....separate from the religious rabble, just like the first Christians were.....and their opposers were those who claimed to worship the same God.....They hated Jesus enough to want him dead.....and sad news from Germany today tells us that some people want us dead too....
So yes, I'll ignore the ignoramus and wait on Jesus to do the judging.....
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
17 Then God said to the man,
“I commanded you not to eat from that tree.
But you listened to your wife and ate from it.
So I will curse the ground because of you.
You will have to work hard all your life for the food the ground produces.
18 The ground will grow thorns and weeds for you.
And you will have to eat the plants that grow wild in the fields."
What a sad interpretation.....
This is the kind of ignorance I have come to expect of those who can't understand even simple scripture....
It was the ground that was cursed....not the planet. The ground would "grow thorns and thistles" to compete with the grain that Adam had to plant so that the yield would be minimal....from the lush plenty of the fruit trees in the garden, mankind now had to toil on cursed ground to eat bread.
After the cleansing flood of Noah's day, it appears that the curse on the ground was lifted, because in later times the Promised Land was described as "a land flowing with milk and honey"...a land where the spies sent out by Moses, needed to two men to carry back a bunch of grapes. (Numbers 13:23, 26-27; Deut 27:3)
“I commanded you not to eat from that tree.
But you listened to your wife and ate from it.
So I will curse the ground because of you.
You will have to work hard all your life for the food the ground produces.
18 The ground will grow thorns and weeds for you.
And you will have to eat the plants that grow wild in the fields."
What a sad interpretation.....
This is the kind of ignorance I have come to expect of those who can't understand even simple scripture....
It was the ground that was cursed....not the planet. The ground would "grow thorns and thistles" to compete with the grain that Adam had to plant so that the yield would be minimal....from the lush plenty of the fruit trees in the garden, mankind now had to toil on cursed ground to eat bread.
After the cleansing flood of Noah's day, it appears that the curse on the ground was lifted, because in later times the Promised Land was described as "a land flowing with milk and honey"...a land where the spies sent out by Moses, needed to two men to carry back a bunch of grapes. (Numbers 13:23, 26-27; Deut 27:3)
RLT63
Well-Known Member
But you cannot see that you do the same thing, not to one denomination but to all of them. You denigrate my beliefs, so who is doing the persecution? You have a chance to defend your religion and you just ignore what is said. @Adventageous posted a lot of stuff but did you read it or respond to it? No. I asked you about Russell and you had no response. It tends to make me believe the information you are protesting about is true.What is the point of even trying to address all that?
Do you not wonder why we get that kind of attention? The desperation to expose those terrible JW's....makes me wonder what we ever did to him personally....or you?
Do you not wonder why he cannot contain himself when it comes to discrediting JW's...? Post after post...a bit like yourself only worse.
A personal agenda perhaps? This is undoubtedly what they did to Jesus and his disciples because he warned us that it would happen (John 15:18-21).....not because they were JW's, but because they were true Christians....separate from the religious rabble, just like the first Christians were.....and their opposers were those who claimed to worship the same God.....They hated Jesus enough to want him dead.....and sad news from Germany today tells us that some people want us dead too....
So yes, I'll ignore the ignoramus and wait on Jesus to do the judging.....
RLT63
Well-Known Member
BIBLE ANSWER
Was the flood the end of God’s curse on the earth?
August 08, 2018In Genesis 8:21, the Lord says that He will never again curse the ground because of man. Does this imply that after God wiped out everything from the earth during the flood, that the original curse was no longer in effect?
First, in Genesis 8 the Lord promised that He would never again wipe out all life on earth again as He did in the flood. Specifically, the Lord promised that as long as the earth exists, He would not repeat the disaster of the flood:
GEN. 8:21 The Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.
GEN. 8:22 “While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
And cold and heat,
And summer and winter,
And day and night
Never again will all humanity be destroyed yet the earth remain. Instead, in the future the Lord will destroy the earth and all unbelieving humanity with it. So the flood wasn’t the end of God’s curse on the earth. It was merely the end of a particular form of judgment. Secondly, the curse God pronounced on the earth cannot be considered fulfilled until the earth itself is destroyed. The curse God pronounced in the Garden was on the earth itself and all that comes from it. The flood didn’t result in the earth being destroyed. It only resulted in extinguishing almost all life on earth.
Furthermore, the curse is responsible for physical death on the earth, and physical death continues on after the flood. Therefore, the flood did nothing to alter the curse on the earth. God promised never to repeat the curse of the flood, but that doesn’t mean that the exiting curse on the earth was erased.
The curse God pronounced on the earth requires that the entire earth itself be destroyed, and Peter says that will yet happen in a day to come:
2PET. 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
2PET. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
LOL...you want to talk to JW's about persecution? Disagreeing with your beliefs is not persecution. It is a conversation between adults who have differing takes on scripture.....how many of your church members have been arrested and imprisoned for their faith? How many have served long prison sentences with rigged trials and no justice? How many have been beaten and tortured just for speaking about the Bible?
There are many of my brothers right at this moment fighting for their freedom, having had their places of worship shut down and their property confiscated or destroyed. Talk to me about persecution....
You have got to be joking.....the guy posted pages without giving me a chance to answer anything......I'm not interested in wasting time with someone who doesn't want to listen, he just wanted a platform to espouse his own beliefs without taking a breath.
Russell is not our "founder" and quite frankly he is rarely mentioned among us.....our opposers talk about him way more than we do.....he was not a prophet and never claimed to be one. He was was a gifted public speaker who became the spokesman for a group of like-minded individuals who all were keen Bible students. They undertook a deep study of God's word to see if the doctrines espoused by Christendom were actually scriptural.....and found them all to be false adoptions from paganism.
If you want to investigate the doctrines, we can do that as we are allowed but this whole hate campaign is proof of nothing but the power of misinformation. That is what Jesus and his apostles had to deal with too.....how many of the Jews put faith in him? And who were at the forefront of demeaning him? (Matt 7:13-14) More fool those who stuck with the status quo of the prevailing religious instructors.
Similar threads
