The answer of hell and its origins

[St. SteVen]

I. There Is One God

What do you make of this?

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 NIV
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[The Learner]

G. Jesus is "equal with God"

1. John 5:18: Although John is relating what the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming, the context shows they were basically right: In v. 17 claimed to be exempt from the Sabbath along with His Father, and in 5:19-29 Jesus claimed to do all of the world of the Father and to deserve the same honor as the Father
2. Phil. 2:6: Jesus did not attempt to seize recognition by the world as being equal with God, but attained that recognition by humbling himself and being exalted by the Father (vv. 7-11)

H. Jesus is the Son of God

1. "Son" in Scripture can mean simply one possessing the nature of something, whether literal or figurative (e.g. "Son of man," "sons of thunder," "sons of disobedience," cf. Mark 3:7; Eph. 2:1).
2. Usually when "son of" is used in relation to a person (son of man, son of Abraham, son of David, etc.) the son possesses the nature of his father.
3. Jesus is clearly not the literal Son of God, i.e., He was not physically procreated by God.
4. On the other hand, Jesus is clearly the Son of God in a unique sense (cf. "only-begotten son," John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9) and in a preeminent sense (i.e. the term is more fitting for Him than for anyone else).
5. Scripture is explicit that the Son possesses God's essence or nature (cf. F. above).
6. Jesus' repeated claim to be the Son of God was consistently understood by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemous claim to equality with God, an understanding Jesus never denied: John 5:17-23; 8:58-59; 10:30-39; 19:7; Matt. 26:63-65.
7. Jesus is therefore by nature God's Son, not God's creation or God's servant; Jesus is God's Son who became a servant for our sake and for the Father's glory (John 13:13-15; 17:4; Phil. 2:6-11; Heb. 1:4-13; 3:1-6; 5:8; etc.).

I. Objections

1. Prov. 8:22: This text is not a literal description of Christ, but a poetic personification of wisdom (cf. all of Prov. 1-9, esp. 8:12-21; 9:1-6), poetically saying that God "got" His wisdom before He did anything - i.e., that God has always had wisdom.
2. Col. 1:15: Does not mean that Christ is the first creature, since He is here presented as the Son and principal heir of the Father (cf. vv. 12-44); thus "firstborn" here means "heir" (cf. Gen. 43:33; 48;14-20; Ex. 4:22; 1 Chron. 5:1-3; Psa. 89:27; Jer. 31:9); note that v. 16 speaks of the Son as the Creator, nor creature (cf. E.1. above).
3. Rev. 3:14: "Beginning" (archê) in Rev. as a title means source or one who begins, i.e. Creator (cf. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13); elsewhere Christ is called the archê in the sense of "ruler," Col. 1:18, cf. plural archai, "rulers," in Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15, also Luke 12:11; Rom. 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Tit. 3:1; cf. Luke 20:20; Jude 6; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21.
4. 1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28: Jesus is still subordinate to God, but as the Son to the Father; i.e., they are equal in nature, but the Son is subordinate relationally to God.
5. John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1:3; Rev. 1:6; 3:12: Jesus calls the Father "My God" because He is still man as well as God; note the distinction between "My God" and "your God" in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including Himself with the disciples).
6. Mark 13:32: Jesus' statement that He did not know the time of His return is to be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man (Phil. 2:7); in fact Jesus, as God, did know all things (John 16:30), and after His resurrection He does not including Himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7).
7. Mark 10:17-18: Jesus does not deny being God, but simply tells the man that he has no business calling anyone "good" in an unqualified sense except God.
8. Heb. 5:14: Jesus was tempted, cf. James 1:13; but note that Jesus could not sin, John 5:19.
9. John 1:18: No one has seen God, but men have seen Jesus, e.g. 1 John 1:1-2; but note that no man can see the glorified Jesus either, 1 Tim. 6:16, and to see Jesus is to see the Father, John 14:9.
10. 1 Tim. 1:17: God cannot die, but Jesus did, e.g. Phil. 2:8; but note that no one could take Jesus' life from Him, He could not remain dead, and He raised Himself: John 10:18; Acts 2:24; John 2:19-22.
11. 1 Cor. 8:6: Father called God, Jesus called Lord: but here "God" and "Lord" are synonymous (cf. v. 5; cf. also Rom. 14:3-12 for a good example of "God" and "Lord" as interchangeable); moreover, this text no more denies that Jesus is God than it does that the Father is Lord (Matt. 11:25); cf. Jude 4, where Jesus is the only Lord.
12. 1 Tim. 2:5: Jesus here supposedly distinct from God; but Jesus is also distinct from (fallen) men, yet is Himself a man; likewise Jesus is distinct from God (the Father), but is also God.
13. Deut. 4:12, 15-25; God not appear in a human form to Israel, lest they fall into idolatry; but this does not rule out His appearing in human form later after they had learned to abhor idolatry.
14. In many texts Jesus is distinguished from God: He is the Son of God, was sent by God, etc.; in all these texts "God" is used as a name for the person most commonly called God, i.e., the Father.

VII. The Holy Spirit Is God

A. Equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18
B. Has the incommunicable attributes of God

1. Eternal: Heb. 9:14
2. Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7
3. Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11

C. Involved in all the works of God

1. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30
2. Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35
3. Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
4. Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27

D. Is a person

1. Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person
2. Is the "Helper"

a. Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1; note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons.
b. Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.
c. Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.
d. Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.

3. Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf. Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6.
4. Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11: 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13,22.
5. Can be lied to: Acts 5:3
6. Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28
7. Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26
8. "Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralled by language used of other persons

a. The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf. Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29
b. The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 33; cf. Isa. 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6
c. Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.; cf. Eph. 3:17, 19; 14:10

 

[The Learner]

VIII. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons

A. Matt. 28:19

1. "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit": use of definite article before each personal noun indicates distinct persons unless explicitly stated otherwise; compare Rev. 1:17; 2:8, 26
2. The views that "Father" and "Son" are distinct persons but not the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all, or that all three are different offices or roles of one person, are impossible in view of the grammar (together with the fact that in Scripture a "spirit" is a person unless context shows otherwise).
3. Does singular "name" prove that the three are one person? No; cf. Gen. 5:2; 11:14; 48:6; and esp. 48:16
4. "Name" need not be personal name, may be title: Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:23. If a single personal name is sought, the name shared by all three persons is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah."

B. Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19

1. Neither passage specifies that certain words are to be spoken during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, "I baptize you in the name of...."
2. Those said to be baptized in the name of Jesus (whether or not the formula "in the name of Jesus" was used) were people already familiar with the God of the OT:

a. Jews: Acts 2:5, 38; 22:16
b. Samaritans: Acts 8:5, 12, 16
c. God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 10:1-2, 22, 48
d. Disciples of John the Baptist: Acts 19:1-5
e. The first Christians in Corinth were Jews and God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 18:1-8; 1 Cor. 1:13

3. Trinitarian formula for baptism (if that is what Matt. 28:19 is) was given in context of commissioning apostles to take the gospel to "all the nations," including people who did not know of the biblical God

C. God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are two persons

1. The salutations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1, 2; 1 Tim. 1:1, 2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Phm. 3; James 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:2; 2 John 3
2. Two witnesses: John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; cf. Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15
3. The Father sent the Son: John 3:16-17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10; etc.; cf. John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21
4. The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31; 15:9; 17-23-26; cf. Matt. 3:17 par.; 17:5 par.; 2 Pet. 1:17
5. The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father: John 11:41-42; 12:28; 17:1-26; etc.
6. The Father knows the Son, and the Son knows the Father: Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 7:29; 8:55; 10:15
7. Jesus our Advocate with the Father: 1 John 2:1

D. Jesus is not God the Father

1. Isa. 9:6: "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other names formed with word "father": Abialbon, "father of strength" = strong (2 Sam. 23:31); Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman's name(!), "father of exultation" = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16).
2. John 10:30

a. Jesus did not say, "I am the Father," nor did He say, "the Son and the Father are one person."
b. The first person plural esmen ("we are") implies two persons.
c. The neuter word for "one" (hen) is used, implying essential unity but not personal unity (compare John 17:21-23).

3. John 5:43: Jesus' coming in His Father's name means not that He was the Father because He had the Father's name, but that, while others come in their own name (or their own authority), Jesus does not; He comes in His Father's name (on His Father's authority).
4. John 8:19; 16:3: Ignorance of Jesus is indeed ignorance of the Father, but that does not prove that Jesus is the one He calls "My Father."
5. John 14:6-11

a. Jesus and the Father are one being, not one person.
b. Jesus said, "I am in the Father," not "I am the Father."
c. The statement, "the Father is in Me," does not mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20; 17:21-23.

6. John 14:18: An older adult brother can care for his younger siblings, thus preventing them from being "orphans," without being their father.
7. Colossians 2:9: Does not mean that Jesus is the Father, or that Jesus is an incarnation of the Father; rather, since "Godhead" (theotês) means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God, Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. "The Godhead" here does not = the Father (note that Jesus is in the Father, John 10:38; 14:10, 11; 17:21), but the nature of the Father.
8. The Father and the Son are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (Gal. 1:1; John 2:19-22), raising the dead (John 5:21); 6:39-40, 44, 54, 1 Cor. 6:14), answering prayer (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23), sending the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7), drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44; 12:32), etc. These common works do prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Father

E. The Son existed before his Incarnation, even before creation

1. Prov. 30:4: This is not predictive prophecy; "prophecy" in 30:1 translates massa, which is rendered elsewhere as "burden."
2. The Son created all things: See VI.E.1
3. Jesus was "with" (pros or para) God the Father before creation: John 1:1; 17:5; pros in John 1:1 does not mean "pertaining to," although it does in Hebrews 2:17; 5:1 (which use pros with ta).
4. Jesus, the Son of God, existed before John the Baptist (who was born before Jesus): John 1:15, cf. 1:14-18, 29-34
5. Jesus, the Son, came down from heaven, sent from the Father, and went back to heaven, back to the Father: John 3:13, 31; 6:33; 38, 41, 46, 51, 56-58, 62; 8:23, 42; 13:3; 16:27-28; cf. Acts 1:10-11; cf. the sending of the Holy Spirit, John 16:5-7; 1 Pet. 1:12
6. Jesus, speaking as the Son (John 8:54-56), asserts His eternal preexistence before Abraham: John 8:58
7. The Son explicitly said to exist "before all things": Col. 1:17, cf. 1:12-20
8. These statements cannot be dismissed as true only in God's foreknowledge

a. We are all "in God's mind" before creation; yet such passages as John 1:1 and John 17:5 clearly mean to say something unusual about Christ.
b. To say that all things were created through Christ means that He must have existed at creation.
c. No one else in Scripture is ever said to have been with God before creation.

9. Texts which speak of the Son being begotten "today" do not mean He became the Son on a certain day, since they refer to His exaltation at the resurrection (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:3-5; 5:5; cf. Psa. 2:7; cf. also Rom. 1:4).

F. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

1. The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter": John 14:16; compare 1 John 2:1.
2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.
3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).
4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22.
6. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?

a. 2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. v. 16, citing Ex. 34:34; cf. v. 17 in the Revised English Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Isa. 6:8-10.
b. 1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is designated "the Holy Spirit."
c. Rom. 8:27, 34: the fact that two persons intercede for us is consistent with the fact that we have two Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).
d. John 14:18: Jesus here refers to His appearances to the disciples after the resurrection (compare 14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.
e. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-19-22); Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 44, 54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John 14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

G. The Father is not the Holy Spirit

1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.
2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.
3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
4. Is the Father the Holy Spirit?

a. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is not a product of physical union between a man and a woman!
b. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor. 1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.

 

[The Learner]

IX. Conclusion: The Bible teaches the Trinity

A. All the elements of the doctrine are taught in Scripture.

1. One God
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons (i.e., they are not each other, nor are they impersonal; they relate to one another personally).

B. The New Testament presents a consistent triad of Father, Son, Holy Spirit (God, Christ, Spirit): Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:34; also Luke 1:35; 3:21-22 par.; 4:1-12; John 4:10-25; 7:37-39; 14-16; 20:21-22; Acts 1:4-8; 2:33, 38-39; 5:3-4, 9, 30-32; 7:55-56; 10:36-38, 44-48; 11:15-18; 15:8-11; 20:38; 28:25-31; Rom. 1:1-4; 5:5-10; 8:2-4, 9-11, 14-17; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:4-6, 11-12, 18; 2 Cor. 1:19-22; 3:6-8, 14-18; Gal. 3:8-14; 4:4-7; Eph. 1:3-17; 2:18, 21-22; 3:14-19; 4:4-6, 29-32; 5:18-20; Phil. 3:3; 1 Thess. 1:3-6; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; Tit. 3:4-6; Heb. 2:3-4; 9:14; 10:28-31; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 John 3:21-24; 4:13-14; Jude 20-21; Rev. 2:18, 27-29.
C. Therefore, the Bible does teach the Trinity.

X. What Difference Does the Doctrine of the Trinity Make?

A. Sovereignty: Because the three persons have each other, we can be assured that God created us only to share the love they have and not as a means to His own end: Acts 17:25; John 17:21-26.
B. Mystery: The triune God is totally unlike anything in our world, and therefore greater than anything we can comprehend: Rom. 11:33-36; Isa. 40:18.
C. Salvation: God alone planned our salvation, came to save us, and dwells in us to complete our salvation: 1 Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:3-18; etc.
D. Prayer: We pray to the Father through the Son, and also pray to the Son directly, in the Spirit: John 14:13-14; Eph. 2:18; etc.
E. Worship: We worship Father and Son in the Spirit: John 4:23-24; Phil. 3:3; Heb. 1:8; etc.
F. Love: The love among the three persons is the basis and model for our love for one another: John 17:26.
G. Unity: The unity of the three persons is the basis and model for the unity of the church: John 17:21-23.
H. Humility: As the persons of the Trinity seek the glory of each other, so we should seek the interests of others above our own: Phil. 2:5-11; John 16:13-14.
I. Sonship: We are "sons of God" as we are united with the Son of God by the work of the Holy Spirit and the adoption of the Father: John 1:12-23; Rom. 8:14-17.
J. Truth: All those who wish to worship and love God must seek to know Him as He is in truth, for God, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is truth: John 4:24; 14:6, 17; 15:26; 16:13.

The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity

 

[The Learner]

What do you make of this?

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 NIV
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 8
Easy-to-Read Version
About Food Offered to Idols
8 Now I will write about meat that is sacrificed[a] to idols. It is certainly true that “we all have knowledge,” as you say. But this knowledge only fills people with pride. It is love that helps the church grow stronger. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know anything as they should. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God.

4 So this is what I say about eating meat: We know that an idol is really nothing in the world, and we know that there is only one God. 5 It’s really not important if there are things called gods in heaven or on earth—and there are many of these “gods” and “lords” out there. 6 For us there is only one God, and he is our Father. All things came from him, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. All things were made through him, and we also have life through him.

7 But not all people know this. Some have had the habit of worshiping idols. So now when they eat meat, they still feel as if it belongs to an idol. They are not sure that it is right to eat this meat. So when they eat it, they feel guilty. 8 But food will not bring us closer to God. Refusing to eat does not make us less pleasing to God, and eating does not make us closer to him.

9 But be careful with your freedom. Your freedom to eat anything may make those who have doubts about what they can eat fall into sin. 10 You understand that it’s all right to eat anything, so you can eat even in an idol’s temple. But someone who has doubts might see you eating there, and this might encourage them to eat meat sacrificed to idols too. But they really think it is wrong. 11 So this weak brother or sister—someone Christ died for—is lost because of your better understanding. 12 When you sin against your brothers and sisters in Christ in this way and you hurt them by causing them to do things they feel are wrong, you are also sinning against Christ. 13 So if the food I eat makes another believer fall into sin, I will never eat meat again. I will stop eating meat, so that I will not make my brother or sister sin.

 

[The Learner]

First here is the technical information

For an Answer - Topical Studies

"
While idols have no reality in the world, Paul does not similarly dismiss the false or "so-called" gods of paganism. They may, in some sense, possess a metaphysical reality and cannot simply be dismissed as morally irrelevant. Paul elaborates in chapter 10, saying that those who sacrifice to idols are actually sacrificing to demons (10:19-21).

Pagan religious meals apparently were thought by participants to include the presence of the god being honored - in fact, one early papyrus contains the text of an invitation to such a meal, written by the god Sarapis himself! (Horsley, "Invitations to the kline of Sarapis," in Horsley, ed., New Documents Illustrating Early Christianity, 5-9). This idea no doubt underlies Paul's admonition to avoid the "cup of demons" and the "table of demons" (10:20-21).

For Paul, however, these gods and lords many should in no sense be considered true Deity. They are false gods, the "gods of the nations" in Old Testament terminology, standing in utter contrast to the One God and One Lord in the next verse.

The pantheon of the Greeks and Romans, not to mention the gods and lords of the mystery religions, were indeed numerous, but one God alone is real (Deut. 10:17) (BKC)."

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - 1 Corinthians 8:6

For an Answer: Chrsitian Apologetics - "Lord" in 1 Cor 8:6

What a Jew would understand is that the apostle Paul in this epistle has all along been treating the Lord Jesus as if he were the Lord (YHWH), while also distinguishing him from the Father. The various ways in which Paul distinguishes God the Father from the Lord Jesus Christ should already be familiar to you (for example, 1 Cor. 1:3, 9; 3:23; 6:14). What you may not realize is just how often Paul speaks of Jesus as if he were the Lord YHWH: * Christians, according to Paul, are those "who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 1:2). Judaism, of course, taught that one should call on the name of the Lord (YHWH; e.g., Joel 2:32). * Christians hope to be found "blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1:8; see also 5:5), whereas Judaism spoke of that judgment day as "the day of the Lord" (YHWH). * Paul exhorts his readers "through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1:10), again placing the focus on the name of Christ that Judaism placed on the name of the Lord (YHWH). * After quoting the words of Jeremiah 9:23-24 about boasting only in the Lord (YHWH), Paul says that his whole message to the largely pagan Corinthians could be summed up as "Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1:31; 2:2). Can you imagine one of Jehovah's Witnesses preaching to people who never heard of Jehovah and summing up his message in that way? * The one who was crucified, Paul says, was "the Lord of glory" (2:8), language no faithful Jew would use for anyone but YHWH. * Later Paul quotes the words of Isaiah, "but who has known the mind of the Lord" (YHWH) and then comments, "But we have the mind of Christ" (2:16). In other words, the mind of the Lord can only be known if he reveals it to us, and that is what we have in the mind of Christ. * In answer to his critics, Paul states, "the one who examines me is the Lord" (4:4); this "Lord" must be Jesus because Paul, like the rest of the NT writers, regards the Lord Jesus as the one who will sit in judgment (recall 1:8; see also 2 Cor. 5:10). It is Jesus who is the "Lord" who will "come" and "bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of hearts" (4:5). Again, this is what Judaism taught that the Lord (YHWH) would do. * The members of the Christian church assemble "in the name of our Lord Jesus" (5:4); the "assembly" or "congregation" of YHWH in Judaism has become the assembly or congregation of the Lord Jesus. * Christians confess that they are "justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" (6:11), even though in the Old Testament all people are summoned to be "justified in the Lord" (YHWH, Is. 45:23). * The directions received from the Lord are indistinguishable from those received from God: "Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk" (7:17). * Paul wants a Christian to be "concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord," with the ideal being "undistracted service to the Lord" (7:32, 34-35). The purpose of life in Judaism, of course, is to please the Lord (YHWH; see Ex. 15:26; Deut. 6:18; etc.). The only other use of any form of the verb translated here as "service" (EUPAREDRON, also translated "devotion") is just a couple of chapters later in the same epistle, where Paul says that those "serving" (PAREDREUONTES) at the altar share in what is offered at the altar (9:13). Thus, Paul makes religious devotion or service to the Lord Jesus the ideal and purpose of the Christian life. This constant placing of God and the Lord Jesus side by side (see also 1:1, 2, 4, 24, 30; 3:5, 6, 19-20; 4:1, 19-20; 6:13; 7:21-24, 39-40), attributing functions to the Lord Jesus that Judaism understood to be those of God, could only be understood by Jews as treating Jesus as on par with God and as in some way even identifying him as the Lord YHWH. Eleven times, at least, prior to 1 Corinthians 8, the apostle has spoken of Jesus as KURIOS in contexts that would be naturally understood by literate Jews as alluding to the honors, attributes, and functions of deity belonging in biblical Judaism only to the Lord YHWH. Thus, when this same literate Jew comes to 1 Corinthians 8:6, he will see Paul placing God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ AGAIN side by side, distinguished from one another, yet both attributed functions of deity in creation, in a way that strongly echoes the SHEMA: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord [Heb., YHWH, Jehovah; Gk., KURIOS] our God, the Lord [Heb., YHWH, Jehovah; Gk., KURIOS] is one" (Deut. 6:4). After eleven times (at least) in which Jesus Christ is spoken of as Lord (KURIOS) in a way that alludes to the functions of the Lord YHWH in Judaism, such a Jew will recognize the same thing going on in 8:6. Yes, the roles of the Father and the Son are also distinguished in some way (EK and DIA imply some sort of functional distinction), yet for Judaism the confession of Jesus as the "one KURIOS" and the attribution to him of an intimate role with the Father in all of creation will still clearly amount to identifying or equating Jesus with the Lord YHWH. Let me make one supplementary observation regarding an objection that has already been implicitly raised. The oldest copies of the Septuagint that we currently have extant do not use KURIOS as a surrogate for the name YHWH but instead have some form of the tetragrammaton. That is true enough. However, during New Testament times, Jews customarily would *say* "Lord" (ADONAI or KURIOS or some equivalent) when reading aloud or quoting an Old Testament text using the divine name YHWH. Furthermore, the NT evidence is unequivocal that this was also the practice of the NT writers, since they routinely use KURIOS (or occasionally QEOS) in place of the name YHWH when quoting from the OT. In support of this conclusion we have ALL of the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, ALL of the ancient language versions (Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Georgian, Ethiopic, Slavonic), ALL of the writings of both the church fathers AND of the heretical writers (especially the Gnostics). The evidence from the church fathers pushes our evidence back into the late first century. These writings all follow the same practice of using KURIOS in place of YHWH, whether in quotations from the OT or in other speech about the Lord God.

For an Answer: Chrsitian Apologetics - "Lord" in 1 Cor 8:6

 

[The Learner]

Still Tech,

Exegetical Misunderstandings in 1 Corinthians 8:6
One God & One Lord's treatment of 1 Corinthians 8:6 is both confusing and misleading. The NIV reads, ". . . yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." The latter part of the verse teaches that Christ created "all things."

It should be noted that the appendix of One God & One Lord says that "there is no mention in either the immediate or the remote context about the creation of all things in the beginning" (p. 494). But the body of the book states that "both verses [Genesis 1:1 and 1 Corinthians 8:6] say that the source of 'all things' is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ" (p. 67). How can 1 Corinthians 8:6 not mention creation but also teach that God is the Creator and the source of all things? One God & One Lord contradicts itself.

Even more significantly, the book says that the first ta panta of "from whom all things came" refers to God's creation of the heavens and the earth. Then it goes on to say that the second ta panta in "through whom all things came" refers to the way "that through . . . the one Lord, Jesus Christ, all things come from God to us" (pp. 67-68). In other words, One God & One Lord contends that this second ta panta refers to redemption and not creation. Therefore, ta panta in the first phrase and ta panta in the second phrase refer to two different things. But where is the contextual support for that idea? Paul has written two phrases that are parallel in construction even though different prepositions are used. Contextually ta panta in both the first and second phrases must refer to the same thing. There is no indication in the context to think otherwise. Therefore, a proper reading of 1 Corinthians 8:6 indicates that Paul is teaching that Christ is the one through whom God created the world.

https://www.forananswer.org/Top_Uni/rsr_review1gdM.htm

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - 1 Corinthians 8:4

 

[The Learner]

My short answer, The Father, Jesus(Son of God) and Holy Spirit are the three persons of the godhead(Trinity). Lord in this text can mean master, more likely Divine in Nature. The gods and lords are idols and false gods of non-Jewish Nations.

 

[The Learner]

For an Answer: Chrsitian Apologetics - Jesus is Yahweh

 

[The Learner]

Google Image Result for https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/08/31/USAT/a54984b0-5e99-4cd3-9ec4-2fc4e04ed138-_desktop_china_thumb.png?width=1280&height=720&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

10 Then the followers went back home. 11 But Mary stood outside the tomb, crying. While she was crying, she bent down and looked inside the tomb. 12 She saw two angels dressed in white sitting where Jesus’ body had been. One was sitting where the head had been; the other was sitting where the feet had been.

13 The angels asked Mary, “Woman, why are you crying?”

Mary answered, “They took away the body of my Lord, and I don’t know where they put him.” 14 When Mary said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there. But she did not know that it was Jesus.

15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who are you looking for?”

She thought he was the man in charge of the garden. So she said to him, “Did you take him away, sir? Tell me where you put him. I will go and get him.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

She turned toward him and said in Aramaic, “Rabboni,” which means “Teacher.”

17 Jesus said to her, “You don’t need to hold on to me! I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my followers[a] and tell them this: ‘I am going back to my Father and your Father. I am going back to my God and your God.’”

18 Mary Magdalene went to the followers and told them, “I saw the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her.

Jesus Appears to His Followers​

19 The day was Sunday, and that same evening the followers were together. They had the doors locked because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 20 As soon as he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the followers saw the Lord, they were very happy.

21 Then Jesus said again, “Peace be with you. It was the Father who sent me, and I am now sending you in the same way.” 22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, their sins are forgiven. If there is anyone whose sins you don’t forgive, their sins are not forgiven.”

Jesus Appears to Thomas​

24 Thomas (called Didymus) was one of the twelve, but he was not with the other followers when Jesus came. 25 They told him, “We saw the Lord.” Thomas said, “That’s hard to believe. I will have to see the nail holes in his hands, put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side. Only then will I believe it.”

26 A week later the followers were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. The doors were locked, but Jesus came and stood among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “You believe because you see me. Great blessings belong to the people who believe without seeing me!”

Why John Wrote This Book​

30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs that his followers saw, which are not written in this book. 31 But these are written so that you can believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. Then, by believing, you can have life through his name.

No contradiction in the text, Jesus is speaking as a man. Thomas was recognizing Jesus's God Nature.

Jesus did not take back his human body and cancel out the ransom for which his human body was given. So Jesus isn't a man here at John 20:17. The apostle Peter testifies that Christ went into heaven, the realm of spirits, not flesh, “he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1Pe 3:18) So at john 20:17 Jesus isn't a man, he sacrificed his human body.

At Revelation 3:12 Jesus says, "The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name."

So here Jesus in Revelations 3:12 is saying he has a God. Jesus isn't a human here in Revelation 3:12 either.

 

[Jack]

Seems to me you're saying what Jesus said at John 20:17 means nothing to you. I say this because you have said nothing about what Jesus said at John 20:17 as though only what Thomas said is of any importance and what Jesus said is of no importance at all to you. What's the explanation for what Jesus said at John 20:17? You make a big deal about what Thomas says but not what Jesus says. Jesus said he has a Father and God who is his apostles and disciples Father and God, that included Thomas, was Jesus in error, or mistaken when he said what he said at John 20:17?

Why can't you quote the Scriptures? It's not difficult.

 

[Jack]

Luke 1
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

And His Name is Jesus!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Why can't you quote the Scriptures? It's not difficult.

Great response. Look up john 20:17 in your Bible. That difficult either.

 

[Jack]

Great response. Look up john 20:17 in your Bible. That difficult either.

I quote the Scriptures I cite. It's the Christian thing to do.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

10 Then the followers went back home. 11 But Mary stood outside the tomb, crying. While she was crying, she bent down and looked inside the tomb. 12 She saw two angels dressed in white sitting where Jesus’ body had been. One was sitting where the head had been; the other was sitting where the feet had been.

13 The angels asked Mary, “Woman, why are you crying?”

Mary answered, “They took away the body of my Lord, and I don’t know where they put him.” 14 When Mary said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there. But she did not know that it was Jesus.

15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who are you looking for?”

She thought he was the man in charge of the garden. So she said to him, “Did you take him away, sir? Tell me where you put him. I will go and get him.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

She turned toward him and said in Aramaic, “Rabboni,” which means “Teacher.”

17 Jesus said to her, “You don’t need to hold on to me! I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my followers[a] and tell them this: ‘I am going back to my Father and your Father. I am going back to my God and your God.’”

18 Mary Magdalene went to the followers and told them, “I saw the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her.

Jesus Appears to His Followers​

19 The day was Sunday, and that same evening the followers were together. They had the doors locked because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 20 As soon as he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the followers saw the Lord, they were very happy.

21 Then Jesus said again, “Peace be with you. It was the Father who sent me, and I am now sending you in the same way.” 22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, their sins are forgiven. If there is anyone whose sins you don’t forgive, their sins are not forgiven.”

Jesus Appears to Thomas​

24 Thomas (called Didymus) was one of the twelve, but he was not with the other followers when Jesus came. 25 They told him, “We saw the Lord.” Thomas said, “That’s hard to believe. I will have to see the nail holes in his hands, put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side. Only then will I believe it.”

26 A week later the followers were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. The doors were locked, but Jesus came and stood among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “You believe because you see me. Great blessings belong to the people who believe without seeing me!”

Why John Wrote This Book​

30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs that his followers saw, which are not written in this book. 31 But these are written so that you can believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. Then, by believing, you can have life through his name.

No contradiction in the text, Jesus is speaking as a man. Thomas was recognizing Jesus's God Nature.

Jesus wasn't resurrected as a man, his resurrection was “in the spirit,” to life in heaven. (1Peter 3:18) If Jesus was resurrected with the same body after his death, why didn't Mary Magdalene recognize Jesus? You're telling me just three days after Jesus death they all forgot what Jesus looked like? The 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians Paul is talking about the resurrection and at 1 Corinthians 15:45 Paul says Jesus was made “a life-giving spirit.” So, Jesus was raised to a higher form of life and a higher position than that which he had held in the heavens prior to coming to earth. He was granted immortality and incorruption, which no creature in the flesh can have. (Hebrews 7:26; 1Ti 6:14-16; Philippians 2:9-11; Acts 2:34; 1Corinthians 15:27)


In the book of Revelation, Jesus also speaks of his Father as “my God.” Clearly he couldn't be a man. (Revelation 3:2, 12) These passages confirm that the resurrected, glorified Jesus Christ worships the heavenly Father as his God, just as Jesus’ disciples do.

 

[Jack]

Jesus wasn't resurrected as a man, his resurrection was “in the spirit,” to life in heaven. (1Peter 3:18) If Jesus was resurrected with the same body after his death, why didn't Mary Magdalene recognize Jesus? You're telling me just three days after Jesus death they all forgot what Jesus looked like? The 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians Paul is talking about the resurrection and at 1 Corinthians 15:45 Paul says Jesus was made “a life-giving spirit.” So, Jesus was raised to a higher form of life and a higher position than that which he had held in the heavens prior to coming to earth. He was granted immortality and incorruption, which no creature in the flesh can have. (Hebrews 7:26; 1Ti 6:14-16; Philippians 2:9-11; Acts 2:34; 1Corinthians 15:27)


In the book of Revelation, Jesus also speaks of his Father as “my God.” Clearly he couldn't be a man. (Revelation 3:2, 12) These passages confirm that the resurrected, glorified Jesus Christ worships the heavenly Father as his God, just as Jesus’ disciples do.

Since Kingdom Hall taught you that Jesus "ceased to exist" for 3 days, how did He return?

 

[St. SteVen]

4 Maccabees 1
Common English Bible

Wow, thanks for your post.
We unfortunate Protestants were raised to believe the Apocrypha was not in THE Bible because it was not inspired literature.
And should therefore be ignored, being the realm of Catholicism, and therefore not for us.
One more reason to hate my religious upbringing. (sigh)

Question: Does God use logic to control His emotions?

The whole concept of hell (eternal conscious torment) smacks of unbridled wrath and fury.
I don't mean to offend, but how should we process such cognitive dissonance?
That the God of love and mercy, the very source of the ministry of reconciliation,
should even conceive of such a horror, let alone plan and execute it.

The common apologetic that says, "His ways are higher than our ways.",
leaves me stunned. How can this way be higher, when by human understanding,
it is clearly lower? That the God who expects us to love our enemies,
would incinerate his own. And worse than that, torture them mercilessly for all eternity,
in the most sinister and sadistic way imaginable, with no purpose, or hope of escape.

Am I letting my emotions get the best of me here?

 

[St. SteVen]

My short answer, The Father, Jesus(Son of God) and Holy Spirit are the three persons of the godhead(Trinity). Lord in this text can mean master, more likely Divine in Nature. The gods and lords are idols and false gods of non-Jewish Nations.

But gods nonetheless.
Are you familiar with the Divine Council?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Since Kingdom Hall taught you that Jesus "ceased to exist" for 3 days, how did He return?

His Father and God whose name is YHWH resurrected him from the dead. Which means, YHWH God brought him back into existence as a living person, only when YHWH God brought his only begotten Son Jesus back into existence as a living person he brought him back into existence as a living person with a higher form of life and a higher position of life than that which he had held in heaven prior to coming to earth as a human. So when YHWH God resurrected Jesus, YHWH God granted him immortality and incorruption, which no human being can have. Jesus Father and God YHWH made all powers, authorities, governments, subject to his only begotten Son Jesus. The only one not subject to Jesus is the one who made all things subject to Jesus, his Father and God YHWH.