The Apostleship Of Paul...

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

GRACE ambassador

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2021
2,387
1,550
113
71
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:

1) There are twelve, including Matthias (replacing Judas), Paul not being an apostle?

2) There are twelve, the eleven being in error, choosing Matthias, instead of Paul?

3) There are thirteen, including Matthias and Paul, all preaching/teaching the same [ homogenized ] thing?

4) a) There are twelve, according To God's Prophecy / Covenants / Law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):​

b) There is One, According To God's Mystery / Grace ( preaching / teaching Different things )​
------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified in the following study:

"
...there is perhaps no place where Paul sets his apostleship forth in stronger terms than in the first
chapter of his epistle to the Galatians, especially in the very first verse. As you read these opening
words, you can almost hear the thunder in the apostle’s voice as he declares in his opening salvo,

“Paul, an apostle, ( not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the Father, Who raised Him from the dead; )” (Gal. 1:1)...​

...Paul didn’t always open his epistles by asserting his apostleship (cf. Rom. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; etc.), but the
Galatians suffered from the same spiritual malady that afflicts many Christians today—they doubted
Paul’s apostolic authority
! So Paul comes out swinging in this epistle by declaring his authority as an
apostle of God. As he himself affirmed,

“in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles” (II Cor. 12:11).​

Who were they? The Lord’s chiefest apostles were Peter, James, and John, men who are mentioned
ten times in Scripture apart from the twelve. Of those three chiefs, Peter was the chiefest of the
chiefs, but Paul was “not a whit behind” him either (II Cor. 11:5).

But if Paul’s apostleship was equal to Peter’s, and no higher, why do we follow Paul? Surely it is
because Peter was the apostle of the circumcision, and Paul was the apostle of the uncircumcision
(Gal. 2:8). It is important for a believer to know who his apostle is!...

...since most of them [ christians ] believe that Paul’s apostleship is of no more consequence to us
than the apostleship of Peter, James, and John, they are forced to conclude that Paul’s message
must be the same as these chief apostles. The problem with this is that they know that Chief
Apostle Peter taught water baptism was required for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), while
Paul claimed he wasn’t sent to baptize at all (I Cor. 1:17).

Since most Christians believe that Peter and Paul are of equal authority for believers today, they have
to figure out a way to homogenize these two opposite and contradictory messages. As you probably
know, the solution at which they have arrived is to conclude, “We’ll still baptize people, just not for
the remission of sins
!”

In the same vein, most Christians know that Paul taught that if you are saved, The Lord has already
forgiven you “all trespasses”
(Col. 2:13). But they also know that Chief Apostle John teaches that
The Lord is “faithful and just to forgive us our sins” if we confess them (I John 1:9). So to homogenize
these two opposite and contradictory messages they conclude that believers are forgiven when they
get saved, they just need a little more forgiveness when they sin!

This despite the fact that forgiveness of sins is something that every believer receives the moment
he gets saved, along with salvation, justification, and redemption. Most Christians wouldn’t think of
asking for more salvation, justification, or redemption when they sin, but asking for more
forgiveness is the only way to get Paul and John to say the same thing.

Finally, most Christians know that Paul asserts that salvation is By Grace Through faith without works
(Rom. 4:5), but they also know that Chief Apostle James is just as adamant that “faith without works
is dead” (James 2:20). So to homogenize these two opposite and contradictory messages they
conclude that Paul is talking about justification before God while James is addressing the issue of
justification before men, even though The Lord never asked anyone to be justified before
men—in fact, He condemned it (Luke 16:15)!

And on and on it goes, as futile attempts are made to try to blend Paul’s unique message with the
teachings of the Lord’s chiefest apostles, the other writers of the New Testament...
" (R Kurth)

Full study 'link': The Apostleship Of Paul

Amen.

Study to Be APPROVED Open Bible.png
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: marks

RR144

Well-Known Member
Feb 12, 2019
598
290
63
61
INDIANA
www.kingdomherald.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:

1) There are twelve, including Matthias (replacing Judas), Paul not being an apostle?
2) There are twelve, the eleven being in error, choosing Matthias, instead of Paul?
3) There are thirteen, including Matthias and Paul, all preaching/teaching the same [ homogenized ] thing?
4) a) There are twelve, according To God's Prophecy / Covenants / Law
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
b) There is One, According To God's Mystery / Grace ( preaching / teaching Different things )
I go with #2, why? Because unlike Paul, Matthias, was never heard of again. After his selection to be the twelfth apostle he is never mentioned again in Scripture.

The evidence is clear. The twelve apostles were also specially chosen and commissioned by Jesus. Jesus chose Paul as an apostle. He did not choose Matthias. The power of the Holy Spirit had not yet come to the apostles when they chose Matthias to replace Judas. History makes it clear that Paul was God’s choice – he was one of the two central figures in the Book of Acts and early Christian history while Matthias was never heard of again.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,360
4,991
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:
Paul stand alone among the Apostles as the only one chosen by the resurrected Christ, who had all authority in heaven and Earth.

The church likes to elevate its traditions to be on par with divine proclamation. And what an apostle means is one example. From Definition of APOSTLE:
apostle
noun
apos·tle ə-ˈpä-səl
Synonyms of apostle
1
: one sent on a mission: such as
a
: one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul
b
: the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group
St. Boniface, the Apostle of Germany
2
a
: a person who initiates a great moral reform or who first advocates an important belief or system
b
: an ardent supporter : ADHERENT
apostles of high technology
3
: the highest ecclesiastical official in some church organizations
4
: one of a Mormon administrative council of 12 men

So, anyone who is on a mission or an ardent supporter of a person or cause is an apostle. A synonym for apostle is emmissary or ambassador. It is worthy noting that Christ himself is an apostle and priest. Hebrews 3:1. All of us who follow Christ should conduct ourselves as ambassadors and priests. 1 Peter 2:9
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,705
3,774
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:

1) There are twelve, including Matthias (replacing Judas), Paul not being an apostle?

2) There are twelve, the eleven being in error, choosing Matthias, instead of Paul?

3) There are thirteen, including Matthias and Paul, all preaching/teaching the same [ homogenized ] thing?

4) a) There are twelve, according To God's Prophecy / Covenants / Law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):​

b) There is One, According To God's Mystery / Grace ( preaching / teaching Different things )​
------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified in the following study:

"
...there is perhaps no place where Paul sets his apostleship forth in stronger terms than in the first
chapter of his epistle to the Galatians, especially in the very first verse. As you read these opening
words, you can almost hear the thunder in the apostle’s voice as he declares in his opening salvo,

“Paul, an apostle, ( not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the Father, Who raised Him from the dead; )” (Gal. 1:1)...​

...Paul didn’t always open his epistles by asserting his apostleship (cf. Rom. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; etc.), but the
Galatians suffered from the same spiritual malady that afflicts many Christians today—they doubted
Paul’s apostolic authority
! So Paul comes out swinging in this epistle by declaring his authority as an
apostle of God. As he himself affirmed,

“in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles” (II Cor. 12:11).​

Who were they? The Lord’s chiefest apostles were Peter, James, and John, men who are mentioned
ten times in Scripture apart from the twelve. Of those three chiefs, Peter was the chiefest of the
chiefs, but Paul was “not a whit behind” him either (II Cor. 11:5).

But if Paul’s apostleship was equal to Peter’s, and no higher, why do we follow Paul? Surely it is
because Peter was the apostle of the circumcision, and Paul was the apostle of the uncircumcision
(Gal. 2:8). It is important for a believer to know who his apostle is!...

...since most of them [ christians ] believe that Paul’s apostleship is of no more consequence to us
than the apostleship of Peter, James, and John, they are forced to conclude that Paul’s message
must be the same as these chief apostles. The problem with this is that they know that Chief
Apostle Peter taught water baptism was required for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), while
Paul claimed he wasn’t sent to baptize at all (I Cor. 1:17).

Since most Christians believe that Peter and Paul are of equal authority for believers today, they have
to figure out a way to homogenize these two opposite and contradictory messages. As you probably
know, the solution at which they have arrived is to conclude, “We’ll still baptize people, just not for
the remission of sins
!”

In the same vein, most Christians know that Paul taught that if you are saved, The Lord has already
forgiven you “all trespasses”
(Col. 2:13). But they also know that Chief Apostle John teaches that
The Lord is “faithful and just to forgive us our sins” if we confess them (I John 1:9). So to homogenize
these two opposite and contradictory messages they conclude that believers are forgiven when they
get saved, they just need a little more forgiveness when they sin!

This despite the fact that forgiveness of sins is something that every believer receives the moment
he gets saved, along with salvation, justification, and redemption. Most Christians wouldn’t think of
asking for more salvation, justification, or redemption when they sin, but asking for more
forgiveness is the only way to get Paul and John to say the same thing.

Finally, most Christians know that Paul asserts that salvation is By Grace Through faith without works
(Rom. 4:5), but they also know that Chief Apostle James is just as adamant that “faith without works
is dead” (James 2:20). So to homogenize these two opposite and contradictory messages they
conclude that Paul is talking about justification before God while James is addressing the issue of
justification before men, even though The Lord never asked anyone to be justified before
men—in fact, He condemned it (Luke 16:15)!

And on and on it goes, as futile attempts are made to try to blend Paul’s unique message with the
teachings of the Lord’s chiefest apostles, the other writers of the New Testament...
" (R Kurth)

Full study 'link': The Apostleship Of Paul

Amen.

View attachment 38103
I tend towards #2 but that is opinion. Paul was appointed by God HImself to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. He was accepted as such by other who held the office. That is all I can say definitively.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim C

Jim C

Active Member
Sep 5, 2023
198
167
43
55
Lynnwood
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
3. Matthias was chosen after the remaining 11 prayed to the Lord to indicate His choice as a replacement. And, as Ronald posted, Paul was later appointed by God as Apostle to the gentiles.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,545
21,653
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I go with #2, why? Because unlike Paul, Matthias, was never heard of again. After his selection to be the twelfth apostle he is never mentioned again in Scripture.

The evidence is clear. The twelve apostles were also specially chosen and commissioned by Jesus. Jesus chose Paul as an apostle. He did not choose Matthias. The power of the Holy Spirit had not yet come to the apostles when they chose Matthias to replace Judas. History makes it clear that Paul was God’s choice – he was one of the two central figures in the Book of Acts and early Christian history while Matthias was never heard of again.
It seems to me that Paul considered himself apart from the 12:

1 Corinthians 15:1-7 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Much love!
 
  • Love
Reactions: GRACE ambassador

Gabriel _Arch

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2023
859
618
93
Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I believe Matthias was an Apostle chosen by God.

The eleven Apostles first asked the Lord to show whom he intended to fill their number, and then they drew lots.
Matthias was present for all else that followed.
 

GRACE ambassador

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2021
2,387
1,550
113
71
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Matthias was present for all else that followed.
Correct:

"And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, Which Knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether​
of these two Thou Hast Chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from​
which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their​
lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles."​
(Acts 1:24-26)​
+
"And they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak​
with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (Acts 2:4)​
Amen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gabriel _Arch

RR144

Well-Known Member
Feb 12, 2019
598
290
63
61
INDIANA
www.kingdomherald.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It seems to me that Paul considered himself apart from the 12:

1 Corinthians 15:1-7 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Much love!
If that's the case than he separated himself from the others he mentioned.

9 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. - 1 Cor. 9:1, 2
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,545
21,653
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If that's the case than he separated himself from the others he mentioned.

9 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. - 1 Cor. 9:1, 2
I'm not sure what you mean, that he separated himself. Can you elaborate?

Much love!
 

RR144

Well-Known Member
Feb 12, 2019
598
290
63
61
INDIANA
www.kingdomherald.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm not sure what you mean, that he separated himself. Can you elaborate?

Much love!
You stated that "It seems to me that Paul considered himself apart from the 12." What I'm saying is if that were true then Paul considered himself apart from the others he mentioned.
 

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,550
414
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:

1) There are twelve, including Matthias (replacing Judas), Paul not being an apostle?

2) There are twelve, the eleven being in error, choosing Matthias, instead of Paul?

3) There are thirteen, including Matthias and Paul, all preaching/teaching the same [ homogenized ] thing?

4) a) There are twelve, according To God's Prophecy / Covenants / Law
Or:

5) There are 13/14 because Jesus was also an apostle - Hebrews 3:1 (WEB):

(1) Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus;​

6) There are 14/15 because Baranabas also became an apostle - Acts 14:14 (ESV):

(14) But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out,​
 

RR144

Well-Known Member
Feb 12, 2019
598
290
63
61
INDIANA
www.kingdomherald.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
5) There are 13/14 because Jesus was also an apostle - Hebrews 3:1 (WEB):

(1) Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus;​
Jesus was an Apostle of Jehovah. His special messenger. The 12 were Apostles of Jesus.
6) There are 14/15 because Baranabas also became an apostle - Acts 14:14 (ESV):

(14) But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out,​
Paul was chosen and sent out by Jesus himself. Paul also saw Jesus in his glorified form, which counted him among the twelve.

There is no scriptural proof that Barnabas saw or met Jesus, which would have excluded him from being an Apostle chosen by Jesus.

Barnabas was an apostle, but he was an apostle appointed by the church and sent out by them
 
  • Like
Reactions: keithr

DJT_47

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2022
928
317
63
Michigan/Sterling Heights
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:

1) There are twelve, including Matthias (replacing Judas), Paul not being an apostle?

2) There are twelve, the eleven being in error, choosing Matthias, instead of Paul?

3) There are thirteen, including Matthias and Paul, all preaching/teaching the same [ homogenized ] thing?

4) a) There are twelve, according To God's Prophecy / Covenants / Law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):​

b) There is One, According To God's Mystery / Grace ( preaching / teaching Different things )​
------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified in the following study:

"
...there is perhaps no place where Paul sets his apostleship forth in stronger terms than in the first
chapter of his epistle to the Galatians, especially in the very first verse. As you read these opening
words, you can almost hear the thunder in the apostle’s voice as he declares in his opening salvo,

“Paul, an apostle, ( not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the Father, Who raised Him from the dead; )” (Gal. 1:1)...​

...Paul didn’t always open his epistles by asserting his apostleship (cf. Rom. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; etc.), but the
Galatians suffered from the same spiritual malady that afflicts many Christians today—they doubted
Paul’s apostolic authority
! So Paul comes out swinging in this epistle by declaring his authority as an
apostle of God. As he himself affirmed,

“in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles” (II Cor. 12:11).​

Who were they? The Lord’s chiefest apostles were Peter, James, and John, men who are mentioned
ten times in Scripture apart from the twelve. Of those three chiefs, Peter was the chiefest of the
chiefs, but Paul was “not a whit behind” him either (II Cor. 11:5).

But if Paul’s apostleship was equal to Peter’s, and no higher, why do we follow Paul? Surely it is
because Peter was the apostle of the circumcision, and Paul was the apostle of the uncircumcision
(Gal. 2:8). It is important for a believer to know who his apostle is!...

...since most of them [ christians ] believe that Paul’s apostleship is of no more consequence to us
than the apostleship of Peter, James, and John, they are forced to conclude that Paul’s message
must be the same as these chief apostles. The problem with this is that they know that Chief
Apostle Peter taught water baptism was required for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), while
Paul claimed he wasn’t sent to baptize at all (I Cor. 1:17).

Since most Christians believe that Peter and Paul are of equal authority for believers today, they have
to figure out a way to homogenize these two opposite and contradictory messages. As you probably
know, the solution at which they have arrived is to conclude, “We’ll still baptize people, just not for
the remission of sins
!”

In the same vein, most Christians know that Paul taught that if you are saved, The Lord has already
forgiven you “all trespasses”
(Col. 2:13). But they also know that Chief Apostle John teaches that
The Lord is “faithful and just to forgive us our sins” if we confess them (I John 1:9). So to homogenize
these two opposite and contradictory messages they conclude that believers are forgiven when they
get saved, they just need a little more forgiveness when they sin!

This despite the fact that forgiveness of sins is something that every believer receives the moment
he gets saved, along with salvation, justification, and redemption. Most Christians wouldn’t think of
asking for more salvation, justification, or redemption when they sin, but asking for more
forgiveness is the only way to get Paul and John to say the same thing.

Finally, most Christians know that Paul asserts that salvation is By Grace Through faith without works
(Rom. 4:5), but they also know that Chief Apostle James is just as adamant that “faith without works
is dead” (James 2:20). So to homogenize these two opposite and contradictory messages they
conclude that Paul is talking about justification before God while James is addressing the issue of
justification before men, even though The Lord never asked anyone to be justified before
men—in fact, He condemned it (Luke 16:15)!

And on and on it goes, as futile attempts are made to try to blend Paul’s unique message with the
teachings of the Lord’s chiefest apostles, the other writers of the New Testament...
" (R Kurth)

Full study 'link': The Apostleship Of Paul

Amen.

View attachment 38103
Add Apollos to your list of apostles. Paul referred to he and Apollos as apostles 1 Cor 4:6-9, and Barnabas too, Acts 14:14.
 

Pearl

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Apr 9, 2019
11,533
17,515
113
Lancashire
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
There is another view of apostles - that there are modern day apostles still around today but not recognised by all branches of Church.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,545
21,653
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You stated that "It seems to me that Paul considered himself apart from the 12." What I'm saying is if that were true then Paul considered himself apart from the others he mentioned.
OK. I guess I don't understand the significance of that. I'm thinking there were 12 Apostles + Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Much love!