The Atonement misnomer of Sufficient for all, efficient for some

[ChristisGod]

Purification for sin- καθαρισμός- katharismos: a cleansing, purifying, purification, expiation. Strongs 2512.

Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22)

Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.

There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.

Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)

Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many

hilastērion – the atonement is received by Faith.

Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. NIV

Romans 3:25
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ESV

The Atonement is received by faith. The offering of the Atonement for sin cannot be obtained apart from faith. The atonement for sin has been made and it cannot be applied to mankind apart from faith. Jesus has made an atonement for sin but it produces no reconciliation, no pardon from sin, no remission of sin unless is accepted or received by faith.

The fallacy of the sufficient for all, efficient for some with the Atonement.

We must go back to the gospel and what the scriptures teach about the good news of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as defined in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.

Romans 4:24-25
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.

 

[ChristisGod]

continued :

Sin is the transgression of the law- 1 John 3:4. Sin is known thorough/by the law- Romans 7:7. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ- Galatians 3:24-25. Where there is no law there is no transgression of the law- Romans 4:14. Sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

In Colossians 2:13-15 we read the following: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Ephesians 2:14-15: For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

So, we see from the above scriptures it’s not sin perse that keeps the sinner from God it is unbelief. Faith is the issue. In Romans 5:1-2 we read the following: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God

Its unbelief that keeps one from salvation and places them under condemnation. This is taught throughout the N.T. gospels and epistles. Here we see what Jesus and Paul declared below.

John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them

Romans 11:20: Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.

Hebrews 3:19: So, we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Cf Hebrews 4:6- unbelief

Conclusion

As we have seen reading through these O.T. passages quoted in the N.T., we discover that the N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement. There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins. And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).


In conclusion its faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)

 

[Earburner]

Very well presented, being both spiritually and scripturally accurate, according to God the Father and God the Son, who together are One in Holy Spirit.

Many forget or are ignorant of the fact, that God the Father required the sacrificial death of His Eternal Son for His ownself, just as much as we do. Otherwise, He never would have been able to permanently dwell within us through His Son*, which is the primary reason for our creation in the first place.

Thanks be to God that we are not left to the judgment of Adam of eternal death, but now through faith in the judgment of Christ, we are free to partake in His resurrection unto eternal life.
John 3:18, 1 John 5:12-13.
*Heb. 10:20

 

[ChristisGod]

Very well presented, being both spiritually and scripturally accurate, according to God the Father and God the Son, who together are One in Holy Spirit.

Many forget or are ignorant of the fact, that God the Father required the sacrificial death of His Eternal Son for His ownself, just as much as we do. Otherwise, He never would have been able to permanently dwell within us through His Son*, which is the primary reason for our creation in the first place.

Thanks be to God that we are not left to the judgment of Adam of eternal death, but now through faith in the judgment of Christ, we are free to partake in His resurrection unto eternal life.
John 3:18, 1 John 5:12-13.
*Heb. 10:20

Amen brother

 

[Rightglory]

The fallacy of the sufficient for all, efficient for some with the Atonement.

We must go back to the gospel and what the scriptures teach about the good news of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as defined in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.

I don't disagree with most of what you state, however you don't even mention the primary purpose of His Atonement. You cite I Cor 15:17 but you fail to include that Christ died for all men, If the dead are not raised then Christ is not risen and if Christ is not risen then our faith is in vain. You have a summary of the fall of the first Adam with the solution by Christ, the Second Adam. vs 20-21. Christ died, reconciled the world to God, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, I John 2:2, Heb 2:9, 14-16. If Christ does not overcome the condemnation of death to Adam for his sin, then all is in vain, This is why the Holy Spirit is working in this world calling all men to repentance because God desires all men to be individually saved. That salvation is through faith. Man was created to have and share eternal life with God.

A blood sacrifice does not require a resurrection but overcoming death does. This is why Christ assumed our human natures, so that that human nature could be raised to life. I Cor 15: 53 also uses the universal "dead" being raised.

Romans 4:24-25
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

You should include Rom 3:24-25 where both are stated, Christ reconciling by Grace (the world, all men) which makes reconcilation of believers to God possible. This is also stated in II Cor 5:18-19. II Tim 1:10. Even John 3:16 states both, He loved the world, reconciling the world, so that those that believe could have eternal life. If Christ does not overcome death, eternal life is impossible. This is why Paul says even our faith would be in vain.

Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.

Here also you should have gone further in this context, Rom 5:18-19. His atonement was universal. The first or primary part, overcoming death will take place in the last day when all the dead will be raised. I Cor 15:53. The second part, the blood sacrifice was to make it possible for God to have union with sinful men in this world. That we can reconcile ourselves through faith and receive the forgiveness of sin., If we are faithful to that commitment of faith, we shall gain eternal life. I Pet 1:3-5.

 

[Rightglory]

continued :


In Colossians 2:13-15 we read the following: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Why do you feel the need to insert (forgave us all our sins.). If is does then you also believe Christ was a sinner, since it states we were raised with Christ. This "life" is referring to Christ's resurrection by which He overcame death and why all men will be raised in the last day because He was raised.

Also the atonement did not forgive any sins in and of itself. His blood sacrifice makes it possible for a person to be reconciled to God by faith, repentance, and the forgiveness of sins. God forgives no sin without a believer repenting or confessing ones sins.

The triumph that is mentioned is over death, Heb 2:9; 14-16, the powers is Satan who held the power of death over mankind.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Here you underline the fact that Christ is reconciling the world to God. Why? So man could be reconciled to God through faith.

Conclusion

As we have seen reading through these O.T. passages quoted in the N.T., we discover that the N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement. There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins. And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).


In conclusion its faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)

I can agree with most of your conclusion but why did you not include these texts in your discourse. Your discourse completely sidesteps the primary work of Christ but you include it in your summary.
What is PSA atonement?
Also, the use of the word wrath has been misused since Anselm in the 11th century. It has led to a lot of problems in understanding the atonement. Rather, it is God's justice whereby God will judge the world according to what each has done, Rom 2:3-5.

 

[rwb]

I don't disagree with most of what you state, however you don't even mention the primary purpose of His Atonement. You cite I Cor 15:17 but you fail to include that Christ died for all men, If the dead are not raised then Christ is not risen and if Christ is not risen then our faith is in vain. You have a summary of the fall of the first Adam with the solution by Christ, the Second Adam. vs 20-21. Christ died, reconciled the world to God, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, I John 2:2, Heb 2:9, 14-16. If Christ does not overcome the condemnation of death to Adam for his sin, then all is in vain, This is why the Holy Spirit is working in this world calling all men to repentance because God desires all men to be individually saved. That salvation is through faith. Man was created to have and share eternal life with God.

That's not a proper understanding of the little word "all" used repeatedly in the Bible. Saying "all" cannot be saying "every", otherwise Paul would have written the Christ died for every human. Throughout we find the word "all" is used in making a distinction between Jew and Gentile. IOW Christ died for "all" men, not only one nation, but for "all" men throughout the nations of the earth that believe. It is "all" without distinction, but not "all" without exception.

John 3:16-18 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Rightglory]

That's not a proper understanding of the little word "all" used repeatedly in the Bible. Saying "all" cannot be saying "every", otherwise Paul would have written the Christ died for every human. Throughout we find the word "all" is used in making a distinction between Jew and Gentile. IOW Christ died for "all" men, not only one nation, but for "all" men throughout the nations of the earth that believe. It is "all" without distinction, but not "all" without exception.

First, I'm not the one using the word "all". In the citations, all means all expressly every single human being who ever will live on this earth.
Paul is precisely saying He died for every human, He reconciled the world Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19. He tasted death for all men, Heb 2:9, as well as Heb 2:14-16. Then I John 2:2, He propitiated not only sins of believers but the sins of the whole world.
Then we have II Tim 1:10 which corresponds with the context of I Cor 15: 12-21 and I Cor 15:53. Paul is quite clear what he is saying.
It is again stated in Rom 5:18-19. Then another two texts that support each other is Rom 5:12 and I Cor 15:20-21.

John 3:16-18 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The word "world" means the created cosmos, universe, It aligns with all the texts above. Because He redeemed, reconciled, justified, made right the world to God makes it possible for God, through the Holy Spirit to call all men to repentance, II Pet 3:9, so that those that see and believe should not perish. It also states He did not condemn this world, but saved it.
Another text that align with each other is Col 1:20 that Christ was given all things, in heaven and on earth to reconcile them to God.
John 6:39 says the same thing. Jesus is saying that all that was given me, I have lost nothing. Why? because all things were given to HIm and He reconciled all things, and all will be raised in the last day.
Why did He do that, so that vs 40 is possible. That all that see and believe will be raised in the last to day to eternal life.
All these texts refute your statement above and are very clear what is being stated.

If you still hold to your view, please explain how spilled blood of Christ on the cross has a limited propitiation. Explain your understanding of the incarnation and how it can be limited?

 

[rwb]

First, I'm not the one using the word "all". In the citations, all means all expressly every single human being who ever will live on this earth.
Paul is precisely saying He died for every human, He reconciled the world Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19. He tasted death for all men, Heb 2:9, as well as Heb 2:14-16. Then I John 2:2, He propitiated not only sins of believers but the sins of the whole world.
Then we have II Tim 1:10 which corresponds with the context of I Cor 15: 12-21 and I Cor 15:53. Paul is quite clear what he is saying.
It is again stated in Rom 5:18-19. Then another two texts that support each other is Rom 5:12 and I Cor 15:20-21.

The word "world" means the created cosmos, universe, It aligns with all the texts above. Because He redeemed, reconciled, justified, made right the world to God makes it possible for God, through the Holy Spirit to call all men to repentance, II Pet 3:9, so that those that see and believe should not perish. It also states He did not condemn this world, but saved it.
Another text that align with each other is Col 1:20 that Christ was given all things, in heaven and on earth to reconcile them to God.
John 6:39 says the same thing. Jesus is saying that all that was given me, I have lost nothing. Why? because all things were given to HIm and He reconciled all things, and all will be raised in the last day.
Why did He do that, so that vs 40 is possible. That all that see and believe will be raised in the last to day to eternal life.
All these texts refute your statement above and are very clear what is being stated.

If you still hold to your view, please explain how spilled blood of Christ on the cross has a limited propitiation. Explain your understanding of the incarnation and how it can be limited?

The blood of Christ is the propitiation for "all" sin. But He is the Savior through His sacrificial blood only to "all" who believe. All without distinction, but not all without exception. That's why I quoted Jo 3:16. God loves His whole creation so much that He gave His Son to save, not "all mankind" without exception, but whosoever among all mankind who believe in Him. Not "all" without exception will believe, so "all" is used throughout not without exception, but without distinction. The only professing Christians that would deny this are universalists.

 

[Rightglory]

The blood of Christ is the propitiation for "all" sin. But He is the Savior through His sacrificial blood only to "all" who believe. All without distinction, but not all without exception. That's why I quoted Jo 3:16. God loves His whole creation so much that He gave His Son to save, not "all mankind" without exception, but whosoever among all mankind who believe in Him. Not "all" without exception will believe, so "all" is used throughout not without exception, but without distinction. The only professing Christians that would deny this are universalists.

Yes, but you missed the whole purpose of why Christ came, was needed because man could not do what Christ accomplished.
He didn't just love this world, He reconciled it to God.
Without Christ redeeming work, the salvation of individuals through faith would be in vain. Read carefully this text in context. I already showed several texts from I Cor 15, but take vs 16-19. Christ came to reverse the fall. The world was condemned to death through Adam. Christ restored, reconciled, made right the world so that He could have a Church, believers, those who desired to believe on Him.
The summary of Christ's work is in vs 20-22. That is the tasted death for all men, the world Heb 2:9. That propitiating the sins of the world. I John 2:2. Those verses are not addressing believers but all men.
It is impossible for Christ to differentiate His atonement. He was man by assuming our human natures. Whatever happened to His human nature will happen to ours. Which is why I Cor 15:20-21 and I Cor 15:53. is addressing all men. (Actually the world as well. The world was condemned to death as well as mankind. The fact there will be a new heaven and earth is ONLY because Christ saved it from death, destruction.) He is NOT addressing believers but all men. It clearly says all men will be raised, not just believers. This is true for Rom 5:18-19 as well. You cannot limit Christ's atoning work and hold to scripture. It is impossible which is why He was Incarnated. It would be direct, explicit denial of His Incarnation.

If I understand Universalism, they don't deny it either. They believe in hell. But hell is a second chance for salvation.

 

[rwb]

Yes, but you missed the whole purpose of why Christ came, was needed because man could not do what Christ accomplished.
He didn't just love this world, He reconciled it to God.
Without Christ redeeming work, the salvation of individuals through faith would be in vain. Read carefully this text in context. I already showed several texts from I Cor 15, but take vs 16-19. Christ came to reverse the fall. The world was condemned to death through Adam. Christ restored, reconciled, made right the world so that He could have a Church, believers, those who desired to believe on Him.
The summary of Christ's work is in vs 20-22. That is the tasted death for all men, the world Heb 2:9. That propitiating the sins of the world. I John 2:2. Those verses are not addressing believers but all men.
It is impossible for Christ to differentiate His atonement. He was man by assuming our human natures. Whatever happened to His human nature will happen to ours. Which is why I Cor 15:20-21 and I Cor 15:53. is addressing all men. (Actually the world as well. The world was condemned to death as well as mankind. The fact there will be a new heaven and earth is ONLY because Christ saved it from death, destruction.) He is NOT addressing believers but all men. It clearly says all men will be raised, not just believers. This is true for Rom 5:18-19 as well. You cannot limit Christ's atoning work and hold to scripture. It would be direct denial of His Incarnation.

If I understand Universalism, they don't deny it either. They believe in hell. But hell is a second chance for salvation.

I don't deny that Christ is the propitiation for ALL sin. Yes, His creation will be saved from the effects of death and destruction that came upon the whole of creation through sin. That still does not mean that Christ's atoning blood was shed to save humans who remain in unbelief. So when we read that verses such as God desires to save ALL men, we cannot assume ALL is without exception, because not ALL will believe. Without faith no man will be saved.

Here's an example of how "all men" does not mean without exception, but without distinction. In this passage we're told that supplications, and prayers should be made for all men, including kings, and those in authority, because our Saviour will have ALL men to be saved, and come to a knowledge of truth. All men clearly here are not without exception, but without distinction, because even kings and people in authority over us can be saved if they do not remain in unbelief but turn to the Saviour in faith.

1 Timothy 2:1 (KJV) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1 Timothy 2:2-4 (KJV) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If the sin of all men without exception will be saved through the atoning blood of Christ, then no man could die in unbelief. None who die in unbelief will be saved. The only thing that some men, those who die in unbelief, have to look forward to is judgment. Since there will be many who meet this fate, it is apparent that the blood of Christ makes atonement for ALL sin without exception, but only all who believe shall be saved.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Rightglory]

I don't deny that Christ is the propitiation for ALL sin. Yes, His creation will be saved from the effects of death and destruction that came upon the whole of creation through sin. That still does not mean that Christ's atoning blood was shed to save humans who remain in unbelief. So when we read that verses such as God desires to save ALL men, we cannot assume ALL is without exception, because not ALL will believe. Without faith no man will be saved.

It means precisely that He desires all to be saved without exception. Rom 5:18 says it clearly, while we were sinners Christ died for us. That's all men as far as I have ever understood. All but Christ have sinned.
Also II Pet 3:9. His universal defeat of death and sin, makes it possible for God, through the Holy Spirit, to call all men to repentance. His love and call is not restricted or limited.
That all don't believe is because man is free to choose whom he will serve. Man will be judged in the final judgement for what he has done.

Here's an example of how "all men" does not mean without exception, but without distinction. In this passage we're told that supplications, and prayers should be made for all men, including kings, and those in authority, because our Saviour will have ALL men to be saved, and come to a knowledge of truth. All men clearly here are not without exception, but without distinction, because even kings and people in authority over us can be saved if they do not remain in unbelief but turn to the Saviour in faith.

The text clearly means all mankind, unlimited call. Why do you want or need to limit God's love of mankind. He instructed us to even love our enemies, why not pray for them to see and believe.
Every single human being has been given knowledge of God. Paul makes this clear in Rom 2: 18-24. This is why Christ in the final judgement can judge all men for what they did. If some men do not have the knowledge of God, they cannot be held accountable for their actions.
I must assume you do not believe in missionaries. That is all they do, pray for those whom they are teaching and preaching to believe.

1 Timothy 2:1 (KJV) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1 Timothy 2:2-4 (KJV) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

See above explanation.

If the sin of all men without exception will be saved through the atoning blood of Christ, then no man could die in unbelief.

Here you are showing the ignorance of what Christ accomplished by His Incarnation. Christ saved not a single individual by spilling His Blood at Calvary. He saved the world, all men from death and sin. We are not addressing the personal salvation through faith here. His salvic work on the Cross made it possible for God to call all men to repentance.
Man cannot do what Christ accomplished which is why we needed Christ. Man cannot raise himself from the dead. Man cannot either keep the law perfectly so that he could submit a perfect sinless life to God, as Christ did. Rom 5:6 says that God died for the ungodly. I see no limitation since we know that all men are ungodly, and vs 8 uses the word sinners to denote the same. Who is not a sinner. We also k now that it states it is all men as well. See vs10 where both all men are referenced as well as believers.

Rom 5:12 states that death came to all men because of Adam's sin. No limitation.
Rom 5:18-19 we again have the understanding of all men being unlimited, and is plainly stated that the gift was given to all men. Maybe the word "life" confuses you. It is addressing our physical death and resurrection. That was the condemnation to Adam, physical death, dust to dust Gen 3:19. What we call spiritual life is called eternal life in scripture. The context will always tell which is being referenced.

Here is another text that a lot of people misunderstand. Eph 2:1-10. "you He made alive" is referring to our physical resurrection because Christ defeated death. Vs 5 is still speaking of all men being made alive with Christ and even uses the past tense "saved" done, accomplished. Then vs 8 switches to believers because they are all saved through faith, not by Christ's Incarnation. It was the purpose of Christ defeating death and sin to have a people unto Himself, the Church.

None who die in unbelief will be saved. The only thing that some men, those who die in unbelief, have to look forward to is judgment. Since there will be many who meet this fate, it is apparent that the blood of Christ makes atonement for ALL sin without exception, but only all who believe shall be saved.

Never stated any differently.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

Yes, the judgement can only occur because Christ overcame death. Otherwise we would all remain in the grave, there would be no resurrection of the dead and no judgment. This is also what I Cor 15:53 is saying. In the last day, all men will be raised to incorruptibility and immortal. All will stand in judgement both the just and the unjust, all will give an account of their deeds, Rom 2:6-8.

 

[rwb]

Here you are showing the ignorance of what Christ accomplished by His Incarnation.

It's really too bad how in these forums it is practically impossible to have a civil discussion. Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder!

None have a will that is more powerful than God. If it were the will of God to save all man, then every human being would be saved. It is the will of God to send His Son to redeem His creation from ALL sin. His Son accomplished what He was sent here for. Plain and simple, some will die in unbelief because they choose death rather than life. If God wills that a man be saved, then he will be saved, not by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but of God. Sadly the rest will die in unbelief, because only whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

John 1:10-13 (KJV) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.

Romans 4:24-25
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.

As we can see from Romans 5, we are saved by both his life and his death. But first comes the reconciliation, then comes salvation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't deny that Christ is the propitiation for ALL sin.

Sin isn't reconciled. People are reconciled.

 

[Rightglory]

It's really too bad how in these forums it is practically impossible to have a civil discussion. Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder!

None have a will that is more powerful than God. If it were the will of God to save all man, then every human being would be saved.

By virtue of the Incarnation Christ did save all men from death and sin. It cannot be otherwise since He took on our human nature to restore it to what it was in the beginning. It is why He is called the Second Adam. He reversed the first Adam. That is what the texts I cited loudly proclaim. Man could not raise himself from the dead, Man cannot live sinless to satisfy the law for a perfect sacrifice. That is why we needed Christ to redeem, reconcile, the world, to make it right with God,
This has nothing to do directly with our relationship with God which we enter by faith. That is what your next statement is addressing.

It is the will of God to send His Son to redeem His creation from ALL sin. His Son accomplished what He was sent here for. Plain and simple, some will die in unbelief because they choose death rather than life. If God wills that a man be saved, then he will be saved, not by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but of God. Sadly the rest will die in unbelief, because only whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

Which is only possible because of His atoning work. That some will die in unbelief is man's choice, just as much as it is for man to believe;. The Holy Spirit is calling all men to repentance I Pet 3:9, He desires none perish. You citation of John 1:10-13 is for those who believe. It is speaking about our spiritual rebirth. That is our salvation to eternal life. However, even here man's will can destroy that new birth. God cannot compel man to love Him. That is man's choice for which he will be held accountable.

 

[rwb]

By virtue of the Incarnation Christ did save all men from death and sin. It cannot be otherwise since He took on our human nature to restore it to what it was in the beginning. It is why He is called the Second Adam. He reversed the first Adam. That is what the texts I cited loudly proclaim. Man could not raise himself from the dead, Man cannot live sinless to satisfy the law for a perfect sacrifice. That is why we needed Christ to redeem, reconcile, the world, to make it right with God,
This has nothing to do directly with our relationship with God which we enter by faith. That is what your next statement is addressing.

Which is only possible because of His atoning work. That some will die in unbelief is man's choice, just as much as it is for man to believe;. The Holy Spirit is calling all men to repentance I Pet 3:9, He desires none perish. You citation of John 1:10-13 is for those who believe. It is speaking about our spiritual rebirth. That is our salvation to eternal life. However, even here man's will can destroy that new birth. God cannot compel man to love Him. That is man's choice for which he will be held accountable.

If Christ became human, and by virtue of His humanity saved every human, why do some men die in unbelief? Are you implying the will of man is able to overcome the will of God to save every human?

John writes that all who believe in Him, God gave power to become the sons of God, by the will of God. It is not by our will that we believe, but by the will of God.

John 1:10-13 (KJV) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Rightglory]

If Christ became human, and by virtue of His humanity saved every human, why do some men die in unbelief? Are you implying the will of man is able to overcome the will of God to save every human?

You are conflating what Christ accomplished and man's response to that work.
Christ redeemed, reconciled, justified, made right the world back to God. This had to be done first, otherwise nothing changes, Man would still be under the condemnation of death through Adam, and God would not be able to have communion with man for an eternity.
Many men die in unbelief because they did not believe on Christ. They do not desire to have a union with God in this life, life, thus spurn their eternal life as well.
Christ's redemptive work is universal, must of necessity be since He assumed our human nature and raised it to life. This is what Eph 2:1-5 is saying. We, all men, were raised to life, physical life. Christ defeated death, physical death so that He could call all men to repentance, to give mankind the same privilege Adam had, which was to be in communion with God and attain eternal life through obedience.
We enter that communion by faith and through that faith we shall be saved. Notice the past tense of "saved" in vs 5. That is a completed, finished work of Christ.
Our spiritual life or union with God begins with our faith, a free choice of every human being. Christ did not save anyone to a spiritual existence on the Cross. His Cross Work made it possible for God to have union with mankind for an eternity. This is called being saved in our present existance. Our faith is always active and in present tense. Many men will reject his offer of eternal life and will choose eternal damnation.

John writes that all who believe in Him, God gave power to become the sons of God, by the will of God. It is not by our will that we believe, but by the will of God.

God grants us to become sons of God because we believed. We don't have the power or right to proclaim ourselves sons of God. But God does not cause, or force, anyone to believe. Again, if that were true, then God would force every man to believe because He desires none perish.

John 1:10-13 (KJV) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Faith should lead to baptism in which we are reborn. We cannot do the rebirth. That is done by God. But God does not force anyone to believe, but those that believe He has given power to become sons of God. See Titus 3:5-8 which corroborates this idea that our belief in Christ grants us a host of blessings, sons of God, regeneration, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, these are all given by God,
Notice in vs 8 Paul gives us a warning about keeping those blessings.
All those blessings depends on OUR faith. God may give us the power to believe, which is part of our nature, but it is man that needs to use that faith. Many reject it, and many who received these blessings later reject them.
God wants total, complete unfettered love from man. God will not force anyone to believe. That is why He is also able to judge man for his deeds, Rom 2:5-8. If God does not call all men to repentance, then He cannot judge those He has not called.

 

[rwb]

You are conflating what Christ accomplished and man's response to that work.

Actually Rg you seem to be conflating Christ's work as man's responsibility. We are saved unto good works, but we are not saved by our good works. Since salvation comes by the grace (first) of God, through faith (second) when we hear the Gospel and believe, clearly salvation is the work of Christ that He came to accomplish for all who will believe. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Because man is saved by grace through faith, once we have been saved through God's grace, and faith imputed to us, then we are called to "work out" not work for our own salvation, with fear and trembling, why? Because it is God who is working in you to both will and do of His good pleasure.

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Faith itself, once believers possess is the work that we do through His Spirit in us.

1 Thessalonians 1:3-4 (KJV) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 (KJV) Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Rightglory]

Actually Rg you seem to be conflating Christ's work as man's responsibility.

quite the opposite, I have stated that man cannot do what Christ accomplished. I have never even hinted that man's work will save man from death and sin.

We are saved unto good works, but we are not saved by our good works.

Yes, precisely Christ saved us, past tense, so that we might live unto Him in obedience which is being able to do good works. We are in our present living unto God and through faith we do good works. Without the works are faith is in vain.

Since salvation comes by the grace (first) of God,

Yes, that is the work of Christ which makes it possible for God to do what you say next.

through faith (second) when we hear the Gospel and believe, clearly salvation is the work of Christ

Yes, He saved, reconciled, justified, redeemed, made the entire world, mankind right with God.

that He came to accomplish for all who will believe.

He accomplished His Work on the Cross, so He could offer union, communion to all men. He calls all men to repentance. Our union with Him begins with faith/believe. That is not what the following is referring to but what He does or promised those that do believe, which is your next statement.

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Our rebirth is by baptism. He gives us a new heart, we can become sons of God, we will receive forgiveness of sin, regeneration, indwelling of the Holy Spirit. These are all of God, not man.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Aren't you glad you don't need to work to live a perfect life. Of course, if we did, we could boast. Christ did that for us, lived a perfect sinless life, because a sacrifice for us and defeated death for us as well.
All we need to do is to believe and by this faith/belief He will give us a multitude of aids to assist us to be obedient in doing His will. so that we can attain eternal life.

Because man is saved by grace through faith, once we have been saved through God's grace, and faith imputed to us, then we are called to "work out" not work for our own salvation, with fear and trembling, why? Because it is God who is working in you to both will and do of His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Here you seem to be conflating again what Christ did for the world, with what we as believers, those that answered the call to repentance are expected to do, which is to work out our personal salvation in order to attain eternal life. Another one of those gifts, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is working IN you, not FOR you, so that you will to work out your salvation. The Holy Spirit is NOT doing the WORK that we as believers are expected to do. That is again violating one of God's purposes in creating man, for man to love Him, unfettered, of his own free will. What is love if it is forced, compelled. Christ would never be needed in the first place, since God would have created Adam as a robot, rather than a free agent to love God of his own choice.

Faith itself, once believers possess is the work that we do through His Spirit in us.

Every human being has a measure of faith. It is part of our creation as human beings. We need to use it and use it to His glory. Just as all men have a knowledge of God. Rom 1:18-28. You are correct in your wording on the conclusion. is that WE do those works through the Spirit that is IN US. The Spirit is not doing them for us or forcing us to do them. It is these works by which we will be judged, Rom 2:5-8

1 Thessalonians 1:3-4 (KJV) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Believers being exhorted here to not cease our work of faith. He does not say the work of the Holy Spirit. Another one of the gifts, we become His elect, members of His kingdom, the Church in the NT.

2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 (KJV) Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

More of the same, exhortation to maintain ones faith and others pray for us that we hold our faith. Most of the NT is directed at believers to hold fast to their faith. Our relationship with God is all about we doing the work of faith, It is not God, the Holy Spirit or anyone else that will be responsible that we attain eternal life in the end. Many have fallen away, many become very slack in their faith, many are tempted away from their faith, whereby one cannot be saved.
This is all about the communion and union God desired from the creature He created in His Image. To love and obey His commandments of his own free will. Our reward is eternal life. I Pet 1:3-5.