The Atonement misnomer of Sufficient for all, efficient for some

[rwb]

quite the opposite, I have stated that man cannot do what Christ accomplished. I have never even hinted that man's work will save man from death and sin.

Yes, precisely Christ saved us, past tense, so that we might live unto Him in obedience which is being able to do good works. We are in our present living unto God and through faith we do good works. Without the works are faith is in vain.

Yes, that is the work of Christ which makes it possible for God to do what you say next.

Yes, He saved, reconciled, justified, redeemed, made the entire world, mankind right with God.

He accomplished His Work on the Cross, so He could offer union, communion to all men. He calls all men to repentance. Our union with Him begins with faith/believe. That is not what the following is referring to but what He does or promised those that do believe, which is your next statement.

Our rebirth is by baptism. He gives us a new heart, we can become sons of God, we will receive forgiveness of sin, regeneration, indwelling of the Holy Spirit. These are all of God, not man.

Aren't you glad you don't need to work to live a perfect life. Of course, if we did, we could boast. Christ did that for us, lived a perfect sinless life, because a sacrifice for us and defeated death for us as well.
All we need to do is to believe and by this faith/belief He will give us a multitude of aids to assist us to be obedient in doing His will. so that we can attain eternal life.


Here you seem to be conflating again what Christ did for the world, with what we as believers, those that answered the call to repentance are expected to do, which is to work out our personal salvation in order to attain eternal life. Another one of those gifts, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is working IN you, not FOR you, so that you will to work out your salvation. The Holy Spirit is NOT doing the WORK that we as believers are expected to do. That is again violating one of God's purposes in creating man, for man to love Him, unfettered, of his own free will. What is love if it is forced, compelled. Christ would never be needed in the first place, since God would have created Adam as a robot, rather than a free agent to love God of his own choice.

Every human being has a measure of faith. It is part of our creation as human beings. We need to use it and use it to His glory. Just as all men have a knowledge of God. Rom 1:18-28. You are correct in your wording on the conclusion. is that WE do those works through the Spirit that is IN US. The Spirit is not doing them for us or forcing us to do them. It is these works by which we will be judged, Rom 2:5-8

Believers being exhorted here to not cease our work of faith. He does not say the work of the Holy Spirit. Another one of the gifts, we become His elect, members of His kingdom, the Church in the NT.

More of the same, exhortation to maintain ones faith and others pray for us that we hold our faith. Most of the NT is directed at believers to hold fast to their faith. Our relationship with God is all about we doing the work of faith, It is not God, the Holy Spirit or anyone else that will be responsible that we attain eternal life in the end. Many have fallen away, many become very slack in their faith, many are tempted away from their faith, whereby one cannot be saved.
This is all about the communion and union God desired from the creature He created in His Image. To love and obey His commandments of his own free will. Our reward is eternal life. I Pet 1:3-5.

Rg, we have practically perfect agreement. Our discussion is centered around our apparent contention with the word "all". While I agree and acknowledged that Christ gave His life for all sin, you seemed to disagree when I said "all who will believe". The usage of all when connected with salvation in Scripture does not mean that Christ gave His life for all mankind. What it does mean is that Christ gave His life for all sin, and whosoever believe among those "all" shall be saved, and no others. All sin has been vanquished by the atoning blood of Christ, but that will not be evident in this age. Do you agree?

 

[Rightglory]

Rg, we have practically perfect agreement. Our discussion is centered around our apparent contention with the word "all". While I agree and acknowledged that Christ gave His life for all sin, you seemed to disagree when I said "all who will believe". The usage of all when connected with salvation in Scripture does not mean that Christ gave His life for all mankind. What it does mean is that Christ gave His life for all sin, and whosoever believe among those "all" shall be saved, and no others. All sin has been vanquished by the atoning blood of Christ, but that will not be evident in this age. Do you agree?

Yes and no. In scripture the ALL, and I don't believe there is an exception, at least at this point I know of none, that the All is constrained in any way. It always means what it says plainly.
Rom 5:7-8 Christ died for the ungodly, sinners. Who do you know that was godly and did not sin in this world?
A little further Rom 5:12, it is all men to whom death came. This is the first Adam, Christ cannot be the Second Adam unless He corrects what Adam did to mankind, actually the world, the world was subjected to corruption/death.
Now lets go to what Christ did, Paul spends a whole chapter on the Second Adam and His answer, I Cor 15: 12-22. The summary is found in 20-22, For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. Balances with Rom 5:12. Do you know of any restriction, meaning that some men do not die?
vs 22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. I would say that is quite plain;. That is supported also in I Cor 15:
53. all the dead will be raised incorruptible and immortal. Our mortal nature will become immortal. Why? Because Christ overcame death. Death for all men, II Tim 1:10. Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-16. Again I Cor 15:20-22.
Other texts where all means all. Col 1:20,. All things were given to Christ, in heaven and on earth. Why? To reconcile all things back to God. II Cor 5:18-19 says the same thing. A text that balances with these two is John 6:39 - ALL that was given Him He will lose nothing and will raise them up at the last day.
Now comes words for a person who believes this, vs 40, Those that see and believe, they shall be raised to eternal life.
The Incarnation of Christ cannot be limited in any shape or form; It reverses the complete destruction of God's creation by death. He needed to overcome death and sin is the sting of death. I Cor 15:56. We sin because of our fallenness, our mortality.
You are very correct that all of this does not take place until eternity.
We still have our mortal natures, which is used to test us, which gets changed at the end. A believer will not receive eternal life until the end, of his earthly life which depends on his faithfulness, I Pet 1:3-5.

 

[rwb]

Yes and no. In scripture the ALL, and I don't believe there is an exception, at least at this point I know of none, that the All is constrained in any way. It always means what it says plainly.
Rom 5:7-8 Christ died for the ungodly, sinners. Who do you know that was godly and did not sin in this world?
A little further Rom 5:12, it is all men to whom death came. This is the first Adam, Christ cannot be the Second Adam unless He corrects what Adam did to mankind, actually the world, the world was subjected to corruption/death.
Now lets go to what Christ did, Paul spends a whole chapter on the Second Adam and His answer, I Cor 15: 12-22. The summary is found in 20-22, For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. Balances with Rom 5:12. Do you know of any restriction, meaning that some men do not die?
vs 22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. I would say that is quite plain;. That is supported also in I Cor 15:
53. all the dead will be raised incorruptible and immortal. Our mortal nature will become immortal. Why? Because Christ overcame death. Death for all men, II Tim 1:10. Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-16. Again I Cor 15:20-22.
Other texts where all means all. Col 1:20,. All things were given to Christ, in heaven and on earth. Why? To reconcile all things back to God. II Cor 5:18-19 says the same thing. A text that balances with these two is John 6:39 - ALL that was given Him He will lose nothing and will raise them up at the last day.
Now comes words for a person who believes this, vs 40, Those that see and believe, they shall be raised to eternal life.
The Incarnation of Christ cannot be limited in any shape or form; It reverses the complete destruction of God's creation by death. He needed to overcome death and sin is the sting of death. I Cor 15:56. We sin because of our fallenness, our mortality.
You are very correct that all of this does not take place until eternity.
We still have our mortal natures, which is used to test us, which gets changed at the end. A believer will not receive eternal life until the end, of his earthly life which depends on his faithfulness, I Pet 1:3-5.

As Paul tells us in Ro 5:7-8 Christ died for the ungodly, and since none are righteous, whosoever shall be saved will not be among the unrighteous. Then as we continue to read Paul's discourse, he affirms that death, through sin came upon mankind, even for men who do not sin in the same manner as Adam's transgression. Then Paul says something a little off. He has already said that death has come upon mankind, so why does Paul say "through the offense of one many be dead", and "the gift of grace, by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." If mankind is under the sentence of death, why does Paul say the offense led to only MANY be dead, and that the gift of grace abounded unto MANY. Why not all humanity?

Romans 5:12-17 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Again, Paul continues to say through Adam's sin, death came to humanity through him, so too they which receive by grace the gift of righteousness, shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Through the one offense, humanity is condemned, even so by righteousness of one, upon mankind brings justification of life. Then again, Paul says something a little off, for he tells us that by one man's disobedience only MANY were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall MANY be made righteous.

18 - And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Though death entered through one man, and death came to all humanity, only many were made sinners, the same many who are made righteous through the one man, Christ. Paul is saying that humanity through sin is destined to die, but many who were made sinners, shall be made righteous by the obedience of Christ. Paul is not saying that Christ died to make atonement for humanity, but rather that Christ died to make atonement for ALL sin. Whosoever shall be among the many who were made sinners through the one man, shall be made righteous by the obedience of Christ when by grace through faith they believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Here also in Corinthians, all humanity is destined to die, even so IN Christ humanity is made alive. The order for every man made alive IN CHRIST, Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. IOW those who believe are in Christ shall be made alive at His coming.

The resurrection of Christ has indeed abolished death for whosoever believes. Christ is the Saviour for Gentiles also, and abolished death, an hath brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel even unto them. Which is why Paul was appointed a preacher and apostle, and teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Timothy 1:10-11 (KJV) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

These verses show us that by His cross, and resurrection from the dead Christ defeated the devil's power to hold believers in bondage to fear of death. Without Christ, mankind in unbelief fear dying. It's only by being in Christ that this bondage to fear of death is broken forever. That's why it says, Christ tasted death for every man, but brings only many sons unto glory through His sufferings.

Hebrews 2:9-10 (KJV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

These verses show us that by His cross, and resurrection from the dead Christ defeated the devil's power to hold believers in bondage to fear of death. Without Christ, mankind in unbelief fear dying. It's only by being in Christ that this bondage to fear of death is broken forever. That's why it says, Christ tasted death for every man, but brings only many sons unto glory through His sufferings.

Hebrews 2:14-16 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

All who are given to Christ, are the ones who come to Him, and not cast out. Christ came to do the Father's will, and the will of the Father is that all He hath given to Christ will not be lost but will be raised up the last day. Everyone which sees the Son of man and believes on Him, may have everlasting life, and raised up the last day. Christ made atonement for all sin, that whosoever believes on Him may have everlasting life.

John 6:37-40 (KJV) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Rightglory]

As Paul tells us in Ro 5:7-8 Christ died for the ungodly, and since none are righteous, whosoever shall be saved will not be among the unrighteous. Then as we continue to read Paul's discourse, he affirms that death, through sin came upon mankind, even for men who do not sin in the same manner as Adam's transgression. Then Paul says something a little off. He has already said that death has come upon mankind, so why does Paul say "through the offense of one many be dead", and "the gift of grace, by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." If mankind is under the sentence of death, why does Paul say the offense led to only MANY be dead, and that the gift of grace abounded unto MANY. Why not all humanity?

The use of the word "many " does not change the effect. He is saying it another way. It means the same otherwise you have a conumdrum in that ONLY many died through Adam, but many also did not die through Adam.

Romans 5:12-17 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

same thing, there is a difference though between Adam and Christ. In Adam' case, death came as the result of ONE sin,. However in Christ case life resulted from the sins of many, in fact all the sins ever committed. And life has more power than death. It is a war of Satan against God. God wins and Satan loses his power over death. All men will be raised in the end to life, incorruptibility and immortality. But even more significant, those who believe will be granted eternal life, not just physical life.

18 - And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Though death entered through one man, and death came to all humanity, only many were made sinners, the same many who are made righteous through the one man, Christ. Paul is saying that humanity through sin is destined to die, but many who were made sinners, shall be made righteous by the obedience of Christ. Paul is not saying that Christ died to make atonement for humanity, but rather that Christ died to make atonement for ALL sin. Whosoever shall be among the many who were made sinners through the one man, shall be made righteous by the obedience of Christ when by grace through faith they believe.

Here you have a logic problem. If you change the meaning to say that the many who were made sinners, translates to the many believers, then you must also say that there were many who were not made sinners, thus did not need to be made righteous. Even if you say other men rather than believers, you have a "many" who were not made sinners thus did not need to be made righteous. I don't think you will agree with that necessary logic.
Also, you switched the word death to sin. If Christ ONLY died to make atonement for sin. Sin becomes primary and death will still remain. If death is not defeated, then there is nothing remaining. Sin sacrifice does not need a resurrection, just the shedding of blood. There would be no eternal existence, Man in the end would die and remain in the grave. This is what Paul is saying in I Cor 15:16-19. If the dead, all the dead don't rise, then Christ is NOT risen, If Christ is not risen, then our faith is in vain.
If you believe Christ arose from the grave, then it is incumbent that you also believe that all the dead will be raised, not just many.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Here also in Corinthians, all humanity is destined to die, even so IN Christ humanity is made alive. The order for every man made alive IN CHRIST, Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. IOW those who believe are in Christ shall be made alive at His coming.

No, you just overturned the entire Incarnation to mean nothing. All it is saying that believers will have precedence. Christ is the first fruit. He was risen first, then those who are Christ's, (believers) then the rest of humanity. All will be made alive that ever have died. we can confirm that in I Cor 15:53. The dead will be raised, it makes no qualifications. All mankind, (mortals) will be changed in a moment to incorruptibility and immortality. God created man to be both body and soul, even those who will be judged to eternal damnation.
It is also why He redeemed this world. The world was condemned to corruption/death through Adam as well. Because He reconciled the world to God, we now can have a new heaven and new earth in which to dwell in eternity.

2 Timothy 1:10-11 (KJV) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Paul is preaching the Incarnation. It is because of the Incarnation that Paul can even be an apostle, preacher to anyone. That word life is speaking of our physical life. Again I Cor 15:53.These verses show us that by His cross, and resurrection from the dead Christ defeated the devil's power to hold believers in bondage to fear of death.
It does not say believers. It says in Heb 2:14 that Christ took upon Himself flesh and blood so that through death he might destroy the devil who has the power of death. Mankind is under the power of death, not just believers. That is the Incarnation again. All men were under that same condemnation as Adam, death. Not just believers. Also, believers were in every instance unbelievers. Even within a Christian family, when one becomes an adult, he no longer can use his parents belief to qualify for eternal life. Everyone makes their decision for Christ. You cannot get to heaven on the basis of someone else's faith. So when you speak of believers, your skipping over this fact as if one has always been a believer. I know there are some who believe in predestination that God elected who would believe and always remain a believer which is totally unscriptural. It violates the whole biblical concept of God's love of mankind, of the Incarnation, of a person to choose freely Christ out of love. And to be held accountable for His deeds. It also denies the fact that believers leave the fold, some never to return. There are many in scripture that points this out.

Hebrews 2:14-16 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Christ tasted death for every man so that man could choose to be in Christ. Christ does not put anyone IN Christ arbitrarily. One must believe,, repent, be baptized in order to be free from that bondage. God desires that all men come to believe, He is calling all men to repent. That is why He saved mankind from the power of death.
The purpose of the Incarnation is to make the world, mankind right with God, so that God then can have believers, by calling all men to repentance. Those that see, hear, believe can be joined with God and through faith we reconcile ourselves to God.

 

[rwb]

The use of the word "many " does not change the effect. He is saying it another way. It means the same otherwise you have a conumdrum in that ONLY many died through Adam, but many also did not die through Adam.

That doesn't explain why Paul writes that many be dead through the offense of one man, and therefore many shall be made righteous.

All mankind is condemned to death through the one man, Adam. But the grace of God abounds much more than the condemnation by the one man to mankind. Because through the righteousness of Christ though all humanity is condemned to death, many from among humanity receive justification of life. The many with mankind were made sinners also, but by obedience of Christ the many who receive justification of life through Christ shall be made righteous. Paul speaks of the many made righteous through Christ because the grace of Christ to many abounds much more than condemnation through Adam to humanity. Though the many made righteous through Christ belong to humanity, they are not counted among the DEAD, having received justification of life.

Here you have a logic problem. If you change the meaning to say that the many who were made sinners, translates to the many believers, then you must also say that there were many who were not made sinners, thus did not need to be made righteous. Even if you say other men rather than believers, you have a "many" who were not made sinners thus did not need to be made righteous. I don't think you will agree with that necessary logic.
Also, you switched the word death to sin. If Christ ONLY died to make atonement for sin. Sin becomes primary and death will still remain. If death is not defeated, then there is nothing remaining. Sin sacrifice does not need a resurrection, just the shedding of blood. There would be no eternal existence, Man in the end would die and remain in the grave. This is what Paul is saying in I Cor 15:16-19. If the dead, all the dead don't rise, then Christ is NOT risen, If Christ is not risen, then our faith is in vain.
If you believe Christ arose from the grave, then it is incumbent that you also believe that all the dead will be raised, not just many.

Again, the many though being made sinners along with humanity are the many who receive justification of life. It's not that many among mankind were not made sinners, for all have sinned. However, those (many) who receive justification of life are made righteous, so Paul does not count the many made righteous among humanity made sinners who are under condemnation to death.

Though death entered through one man, and death came to all humanity, only many were made sinners, the same many who are made righteous through the one man, Christ. Paul is saying that humanity through sin is destined to die, but many who were made sinners, shall be made righteous through justification of life by the righteous obedience of Christ. Paul is not saying that Christ died to make atonement for humanity, but rather that Christ died to make atonement for ALL sin. Whosoever shall be among the many, not all who receive justification of life, though being made sinners through the one man, are made righteous by the obedience of Christ.

All will be made alive that ever have died. we can confirm that in I Cor 15:53. The dead will be raised, it makes no qualifications. All mankind, (mortals) will be changed in a moment to incorruptibility and immortality. God created man to be both body and soul, even those who will be judged to eternal damnation.
It is also why He redeemed this world. The world was condemned to corruption/death through Adam as well. Because He reconciled the world to God, we now can have a new heaven and new earth in which to dwell in eternity.

You again appear to be arguing for universal salvation for all humankind?

There is an order to the physical resurrection that shall come when the last trump sounds, but both those resurrected for life and those resurrected to condemnation are resurrected at the same hour that is coming.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In 1 Cor 15:53, Paul is not speaking of all humanity, but only those who are bodily resurrected to immortality and incorruption, those who have done good are resurrected to immortality and incorruption first, followed by those resurrected for condemnation. In 1 Cor 15 Paul is only showing what happens to those who have done good. Paul mentions only the physical resurrection for those whose resurrection means death for them is swallowed up in victory. That is not true for those resurrected for condemnation. They are resurrected to be condemned to the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

It does not say believers. It says in Heb 2:14 that Christ took upon Himself flesh and blood so that through death he might destroy the devil who has the power of death. Mankind is under the power of death, not just believers. That is the Incarnation again. All men were under that same condemnation as Adam, death. Not just believers. Also, believers were in every instance unbelievers. Even within a Christian family, when one becomes an adult, he no longer can use his parents belief to qualify for eternal life. Everyone makes their decision for Christ. You cannot get to heaven on the basis of someone else's faith. So when you speak of believers, your skipping over this fact as if one has always been a believer. I know there are some who believe in predestination that God elected who would believe and always remain a believer which is totally unscriptural. It violates the whole biblical concept of God's love of mankind, of the Incarnation, of a person to choose freely Christ out of love. And to be held accountable for His deeds. It also denies the fact that believers leave the fold, some never to return. There are many in scripture that points this out.

Once more, Christ's death made atonement for ALL sin. Through His sacrificial death all of creation will be made new again. All mankind is counted among unbelievers until by grace through faith we hear the Gospel, believe, turn to Christ for eternal life. As Paul tells young Timothy Christ has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel, which is why Paul was appointed an apostle unto the Gentiles, for salvation has come not to every Gentile, but to Gentiles who, together with Jews of faith believe in Christ. The atonement of Christ paid the penalty for ALL sin, that whosoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, and only them, shall be saved by grace through faith. Whosoever dies in unbelief shall be condemned.

Christ tasted death for every man so that man could choose to be in Christ. Christ does not put anyone IN Christ arbitrarily. One must believe,, repent, be baptized in order to be free from that bondage. God desires that all men come to believe, He is calling all men to repent. That is why He saved mankind from the power of death.
The purpose of the Incarnation is to make the world, mankind right with God, so that God then can have believers, by calling all men to repentance. Those that see, hear, believe can be joined with God and through faith we reconcile ourselves to God.

Christ tasted death for humanity, that whosoever believes in Him shall have eternal life. When one receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit by grace through faith, turns to Christ in repentance, believing they have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, and all their sins are forgiven.

John 1:33 (KJV) And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Rightglory]

That doesn't explain why Paul writes that many be dead through the offense of one man, and therefore many shall be made righteous.

All mankind is condemned to death through the one man, Adam. But the grace of God abounds much more than the condemnation by the one man to mankind. Because through the righteousness of Christ though all humanity is condemned to death, many from among humanity receive justification of life. The many with mankind were made sinners also, but by obedience of Christ the many who receive justification of life through Christ shall be made righteous. Paul speaks of the many made righteous through Christ because the grace of Christ to many abounds much more than condemnation through Adam to humanity. Though the many made righteous through Christ belong to humanity, they are not counted among the DEAD, having received justification of life.

They are counted among those that were dead. Mankind, all mankind has been made alive. I Cor 15:21-22.

Again, the many though being made sinners along with humanity are the many who receive justification of life. It's not that many among mankind were not made sinners, for all have sinned. However, those (many) who receive justification of life are made righteous, so Paul does not count the many made righteous among humanity made sinners who are under condemnation to death.

these are equations. The first statement is equal to the second. Just as Rom 5:19-20. You are conflating being made righteous by faith. This discussion is wholly about the Incarnation. There can be no separation within the Incarnation that Christ died for all, then only made many righteous. I Cor 15:20-22. Col 1:20. To be redeemed, reconciled, made righteous, means to be made right with God. Here Christ is making all things righteous to God. The Incarnation makes it possible for man to be made righteous to God by faith.

Though death entered through one man, and death came to all humanity, only many were made sinners, the same many who are made righteous through the one man, Christ. Paul is saying that humanity through sin is destined to die, but many who were made sinners, shall be made righteous through justification of life by the righteous obedience of Christ. Paul is not saying that Christ died to make atonement for humanity, but rather that Christ died to make atonement for ALL sin. Whosoever shall be among the many, not all who receive justification of life, though being made sinners through the one man, are made righteous by the obedience of Christ.

Death is the primary purpose, not sin. We sin because of our mortality, our fallen human natures, Our sinning is the sting of death, I Cor 15:56. All men, the world was made righteous by Christ. No exceptions, all things, Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19,

You again appear to be arguing for universal salvation for all humankind?

That's because conflate what Christ did and man's response. Christ did not make believers from the Cross. He makes it possible for God to have believers, who choose to become believers by choice. Christ accomplished two things on the Cross, overcame death and was a blood sacrifice for sin. That is the world was made righteous. That has nothing to do with all men being saved personally, which is done by and through faith and many will go to hell. I think you are also stumbling over the use of the word righteous. All it means it to make right.
Christ made the world right with God. Man makes himself righteous to God by faith.

There is an order to the physical resurrection that shall come when the last trump sounds, but both those resurrected for life and those resurrected to condemnation are resurrected at the same hour that is coming.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In 1 Cor 15:53, Paul is not speaking of all humanity, but only those who are bodily resurrected to immortality and incorruption, those who have done good are resurrected to immortality and incorruption first, followed by those resurrected for condemnation. In 1 Cor 15 Paul is only showing what happens to those who have done good. Paul mentions only the physical resurrection for those whose resurrection means death for them is swallowed up in victory. That is not true for those resurrected for condemnation. They are resurrected to be condemned to the lake of fire.

you are contradicting yourself here. John 5:28-29 is saying exactly the very same thing. John uses graves, Paul uses the dead. Do you think there is a difference. Every human being, in a twinkling of an eye will be raised. All those raised, will become incorruptible and immortal. No exceptions, otherwise Christ Incarnation is meaningless.

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Once more, Christ's death made atonement for ALL sin. Through His sacrificial death all of creation will be made new again. All mankind is counted among unbelievers until by grace through faith we hear the Gospel, believe, turn to Christ for eternal life. As Paul tells young Timothy Christ has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel, which is why Paul was appointed an apostle unto the Gentiles, for salvation has come not to every Gentile, but to Gentiles who, together with Jews of faith believe in Christ. The atonement of Christ paid the penalty for ALL sin, that whosoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, and only them, shall be saved by grace through faith. Whosoever dies in unbelief shall be condemned.

The Gospel has come to all men. Jesus is the light of the world. John 1:9. Also, Christ defeated death for all.
The rest is correct.

Christ tasted death for humanity, that whosoever believes in Him shall have eternal life. When one receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit by grace through faith, turns to Christ in repentance, believing they have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, and all their sins are forgiven.

That was the purpose of the Incarnation. So that whosoever believes is even possible. Their past and present sins are forgiven. However, you used the correct word, through faith. We are justified by faith,, it makes us right with God. But we are being saved through our faith. It is a contining journey and constant confession is needed throughout our lives.

 

[rwb]

They are counted among those that were dead. Mankind, all mankind has been made alive. I Cor 15:21-22.

No, all mankind has not been made alive! All mankind shall be made alive in the last hour that is coming, only those who have done good will be resurrected to life. The rest resurrected to condemnation. And 1 Cor 15 does not say otherwise.

All men, the world was made righteous by Christ. No exceptions, all things, Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19

Yes, all things will be made new, just not all mankind!

The Incarnation makes it possible for man to be made righteous to God by faith.

Now, you seem unsure. Which is it, the incarnation only makes it possible, or all mankind was made righteous?

He makes it possible for God to have believers, who choose to become believers by choice.

I'm not sure what you believe. You keep contradicting yourself. First you say all men, without exception are made righteous by Christ. Then you say the incarnation only makes it possible for all men to be made righteous. Now you say since righteousness of men is only possible, man must make a choice to become righteous.

That is the world was made righteous. That has nothing to do with all men being saved personally, which is done by and through faith and many will go to hell. I think you are also stumbling over the use of the word righteous.

It's clear that you do not have a clear response because you don't seem to really understand what you are attempting to explain. You said the world means all men, now you say the world was made righteous, but that has nothing to do with all men being saved personally, because that is by and through faith and many will go to hell???? What? If all men have been made righteous through the atonement of Christ, how can all men be righteous, but not saved? If all men have been made righteous through the atonement of Christ, then what man is yet a sinner? Righteous means to be without sin! And you say I am stumbling over the use of the word righteous?

Christ made the world right with God. Man makes himself righteous to God by faith.

Again you earlier said man was made righteous by the atonement of Christ. Now you say man makes himself righteous to God by faith????

you are contradicting yourself here. John 5:28-29 is saying exactly the very same thing. John uses graves, Paul uses the dead. Do you think there is a difference. Every human being, in a twinkling of an eye will be raised. All those raised, will become incorruptible and immortal. No exceptions, otherwise Christ Incarnation is meaningless.

No! When the physically dead are bodily resurrected when the last trump sounds, only those resurrected for life will be immortal and incorruptible. The rest will be resurrected for condemnation. When bodies are resurrected to condemnation, it is clear they are not immortal or incorruptible.

We are justified by faith,, it makes us right with God. But we are being saved through our faith. It is a contining journey and constant confession is needed throughout our lives.

We are justified by GRACE, through faith! First according to God's grace man hears the Gospel, and for those who hear faith is imputed through the Holy Spirit, opening men's ears to hear, and gives us a new heart, then believing Christ, man repents of their sins and turns to Christ for eternal life. Salvation, start to finish is the gift of God's grace to fallen mankind. Whosoever believes in Christ has eternal life through Him. All who die in unbelief will be physically resurrected on the last in the hour that is coming to damnation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Rightglory]

No, all mankind has not been made alive! All mankind shall be made alive in the last hour that is coming, only those who have done good will be resurrected to life. The rest resurrected to condemnation. And 1 Cor 15 does not say otherwise.

That is what my Bible says in very plain English. I Cor 15: 20-22. The context before I Cor 15:12-19 is speaking of all dead. Who do you know that has never died?

Yes, all things will be made new, just not all mankind!

Your statement denies what scripture says and also denies the Incarnation. This is very explicitly stated in I Cor 15:12-19. If it isn't all, then it is nothing which makes any faith in this lifetime vain, as it has no eternal existence whether eternal life or eternal damnation.

Now, you seem unsure. Which is it, the incarnation only makes it possible, or all mankind was made righteous?

Both are correct because of who does what and when. The Incarnation makes the world, mankind righteous to God. (means to make right)
No believers in the picture.
However, when one believes they are reconciling or making themselves right with God. It's all in the context.

I'm not sure what you believe. You keep contradicting yourself. First you say all men, without exception are made righteous by Christ. Then you say the incarnation only makes it possible for all men to be made righteous. Now you say since righteousness of men is only possible, man must make a choice to become righteous.

Yes, see above. Might add. the words redeem, reconcile, justify, made righteous, all have the same meaning. It is the context that describes who is doing "making righteous, and what for whom. The Incarnation is Christ making the world right with God.
The believer is being made righteous by his act of faith to God. Context, Context, Context.

It's clear that you do not have a clear response because you don't seem to really understand what you are attempting to explain. You said the world means all men, now you say the world was made righteous, but that has nothing to do with all men being saved personally, because that is by and through faith and many will go to hell???? What? If all men have been made righteous through the atonement of Christ, how can all men be righteous, but not saved? If all men have been made righteous through the atonement of Christ, then what man is yet a sinner? Righteous means to be without sin! And you say I am stumbling over the use of the word righteous?

When you conflate Christ's work with man's response you will get confused. See above explanation. You seem to have some kind of different meaning to the word "righteous" It means to make right. We can use all these same words that describes a person balancing his checkbook with a bank statement. You are reconciling your ckbk, or you are justifying the two accounts, yours and the banks, or you are making them right, balanced. again it is context, and understanding the meaning of the words.
There is no definition that means to be without sin, for righteous. However, the opposite is true.
When you confess your sins, you are right with God.

Again you earlier said man was made righteous by the atonement of Christ. Now you say man makes himself righteous to God by faith???

See all the above.

No! When the physically dead are bodily resurrected when the last trump sounds, only those resurrected for life will be immortal and incorruptible. The rest will be resurrected for condemnation. When bodies are resurrected to condemnation, it is clear they are not immortal or incorruptible.

You show me a text that states that there are two physical resurrections? It plainly says all and also all mortals. Unbelievers are still mortal, and they will also exist in hell as human beings. God cannot destroy His creatures created in His Image. Those under condemnation are still human beings. You seem to think that they will be some kind of different human being object, spirit. Why?
Christ rose with our human nature, unless you believe there are other kinds of natures, which are not the same as you want believers to have.
Your theology becomes very disjointed. First, all men were not condemned through Adam, thus, for some reason have a different human nature and don't need redemption. Or, if you believe they are the same at that point, you must change natures by virtue of the resurrection of Christ. If Christ did not give life to all, then to whom He did not give life, will die and remain in the grave, never to be resurrected You also have the conumdrum of Pauls answer to only some being given life to rise in the last day, Everything is in vain, including your faith I Cor 15:12-19.

We are justified by GRACE, through faith! First according to God's grace man hears the Gospel, and for those who hear faith is imputed through the Holy Spirit, opening men's ears to hear, and gives us a new heart, then believing Christ, man repents of their sins and turns to Christ for eternal life. Salvation, start to finish is the gift of God's grace to fallen mankind. Whosoever believes in Christ has eternal life through Him. All who die in unbelief will be physically resurrected on the last in the hour that is coming to damnation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is all grace both the Incarnation and the fact that God made it possible by Christ's Incarnation to have men be able to choose where they want to spend eternity. We don't need to do works because Christ's did that for us in the Incarnation.
But in believing, He commands us to love, and be obedient to Him. These are the works of vs 10. Granted, as believers we have a host of aids, all as Gods gift to us. But we need to use these gifts. What good is a gift and one does nothing with it.
That is the problem of the unbeliever. He rejects the gift.

 

[rwb]

That is what my Bible says in very plain English. I Cor 15: 20-22. The context before I Cor 15:12-19 is speaking of all dead. Who do you know that has never died?

The first eight verses show us who Paul is addressing. It is those who had heard the Gospel preached, "By which ye are saved". Although the atoning blood of Christ is the propitiation for ALL sin, man is not saved unless/until they believe. When we believe, our sins according to the Scriptures are covered by His atoning blood. Paul is addressing those who hear the Gospel, believe and are saved through the death of Christ. Christ's propitiation for ALL sin will not benefit those who die in unbelief.

1 Corinthians 15:1-8 (KJV) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

The audience has not changed. Paul speaking to those who believe through the Gospel preached is still Paul's focus. Some among the believers were saying that there is no resurrection of the dead. The whole purpose for Paul's discourse here is to prove not only that Christ has resurrected from the dead, but also all who believe according to the Gospel preached shall also be resurrected. Paul will speak later of how these faithful saints will not only have life after their body dies, but their body too will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible when the last trump sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:11-19 (KJV) Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Paul tells believers that it is not only in this life that we have hope in Christ. Because since Christ has risen from the dead, He became the firstfruits of them that slept. Not the firstfruits of all who had already died, but the firstfruits of those who had died believing in Christ. It is they, not all who were in the graves that were made alive when Christ resurrected from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:19-22 (KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The resurrection of saints who had died in faith waiting for His coming became fulfilled after Christ's resurrection, and graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which had died arose, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many. The bodies that arose were spiritual bodies, after the physical body is dead and buried. They had to wait in death until the promised Messiah defeated sin and death by His cross and resurrection. They were raised a spiritual body, as Paul will later speak of.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

It is in heaven where the spirits of men who have died in faith are made perfect. Because heaven is the habitation of spirit beings, the Father, the Son and angels, a great many witnesses of the spiritual resurrection of the bodies of saints after physical death.

Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Continues on next reply:

 

[rwb]

That is what my Bible says in very plain English. I Cor 15: 20-22. The context before I Cor 15:12-19 is speaking of all dead. Who do you know that has never died?

Just as Paul writes there is an order of the resurrection of Christ and His saints. Christ is the first resurrection of the dead both spiritually (Lu 23:46), and three days later He resurrected physically. So too at His first coming, by His cross and resurrection those who had already died are now with Christ in heaven a spiritual body, called a living soul.

1 Corinthians 15:23 KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

After speaking of the spiritual resurrection, in the next few verses, Paul speaks of what those of faith of whom he was speaking to, can expect at the end, when the Kingdom of God shall be complete and delivered to the Father. That won't be until the last enemy, that is death has been destroyed. Which, as we read later is physical death when believers are bodily resurrected to immortality and incorruptible.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The following, lengthy passage from Scripture, where Paul is still addressing believers, he says some will ask how the dead are raised up, and with what body they shall be. Every man must die to be raised up, and that which is dead and buried is not the body that shall be. God will give man a body that pleases Him. Each body raised up, and to every seed his own body. Paul says all flesh differs one from another, and the flesh of men is not the same as beasts, fishes, or birds. And there is also celestial bodies, that are not the same as terrestrial bodies. Because celestial bodies are above the sky, heavenly bodies, but terrestrial bodies worldly, physical, of the earth.

When Paul says the resurrection of the dead that is sown in the earth, this is the physical body that is sown in corruption and shall be raised in incorruption, sown in dishonor, raised in glory, sown in weakness, raised in power, and sown a natural body, but raised a spiritual body. Spiritual bodies are not of flesh, not terrestrial, but are spirit, celestial, of heaven. That which is sown a natural body and shall be raised to immortality and incorruption is NOT the spiritual body that is raised when the natural body of mortal flesh is dead. The natural body and the spiritual body are not the same they differ one from another, and are raised first as spiritual bodies when our natural body of flesh dies, then as natural bodies made immortal in incorruptible when the last trump sounds. Our natural bodies must be changed because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:35-50 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Still addressing the faithful saints at Corinth, this last passage of Scripture Paul speaks of the physical resurrection that shall come, not when our body dies, when believers are raised spiritual bodies, but when the last trump sounds that time on this earth shall be no more. Every human will be physically resurrected in the same hour that is coming, this last hour, but in this passage Paul is only saying when and how believers physical bodies too shall also be resurrected to immortality and incorruptible and together with our spirit that God will bring with Him (1Th 4:14), and together body and spirit believers will be once more complete living souls, fit for the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Rightglory]

The first eight verses show us who Paul is addressing. It is those who had heard the Gospel preached, "By which ye are saved". Although the atoning blood of Christ is the propitiation for ALL sin, man is not saved unless/until they believe. When we believe, our sins according to the Scriptures are covered by His atoning blood. Paul is addressing those who hear the Gospel, believe and are saved through the death of Christ. Christ's propitiation for ALL sin will not benefit those who die in unbelief.

The first 6 vs are not addressing believers, except they are part of mankind. Vs 5 is where the very clear distinction is made. Vs 1 is addressing mankind again. All of mankind was dead in sins and trespasses. We already know that all men have been made alive by His Incarnation and resurrection. This resurrection is mentioned in vs 5. We, all men's human natures where given life. Which is why all men will be raised. It is past tense besides, It is a completed, finished work.
Our personal salvation though is not finished until the last minute we live on this earth. we are being saved through faith.

1 Corinthians 15:1-8 (KJV) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

The audience has not changed. Paul speaking to those who believe through the Gospel preached is still Paul's focus.

Just because he is preaching to believers, wouldn't you like to know what Christ did for you. He uses the past tense "saved' again here.
No believer can claim to be saved in regard to his relationship with Christ in this life. It is a continuing journey. You are saved when you attain eternal life.
And that Gospel is Christ crucified who rose from the dead.

Some among the believers were saying that there is no resurrection of the dead. The whole purpose for Paul's discourse here is to prove not only that Christ has resurrected from the dead, but also all who believe according to the Gospel preached shall also be resurrected. Paul will speak later of how these faithful saints will not only have life after their body dies, but their body too will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible when the last trump sounds.

He never mentions believers in the whole section from vs12-22. He is proclaiming that Christ was raised thus all the dead will be raised. He emphatically states, for the benefit of believers, that if the dead are not raised, then Christ is not raised, and ones faith is worthless (vain)
the same all dead are the same all dead in ICor 15: 53.

1 Corinthians 15:11-19 (KJV) Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Paul tells believers that it is not only in this life that we have hope in Christ. Because since Christ has risen from the dead, He became the firstfruits of them that slept. Not the firstfruits of all who had already died, but the firstfruits of those who had died believing in Christ. It is they, not all who were in the graves that were made alive when Christ resurrected from the dead.

your not making any sense here. It does not even hint at what you want it to mean. He never refers to dead believers. Also, is surely is not referencing ONLY those that believed in Christ. It also mean Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and all the rest. They did not believe in Christ but they believed in God. Same thing, unless you don't believe in the Trinity.

The summary of vs 20-22 clearly is not addressing believers directly, only that they are part of humanity.

1 Corinthians 15:19-22 (KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The resurrection of saints who had died in faith waiting for His coming became fulfilled after Christ's resurrection, and graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which had died arose, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many. The bodies that arose were spiritual bodies, after the physical body is dead and buried. They had to wait in death until the promised Messiah defeated sin and death by His cross and resurrection. They were raised a spiritual body, as Paul will later speak of.

I've never heard that before. They were physical bodies, just as physical as Christ's body was at his resurrection. It was to show that Christ had overcome death and man will be raised, all men. Christ is in heaven right now with a physical body like ours. It is a glorified, or spiritual, if you want to call it that, but we will have physical bodies. That is the way we were created, and saved to become. The same as God originally created.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

How is that spiritual body working? Do you think those that saw were seening ghosts or having visions.?

Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

It is in heaven where the spirits of men who have died in faith are made perfect. Because heaven is the habitation of spirit beings, the Father, the Son and angels, a great many witnesses of the spiritual resurrection of the bodies of saints after physical death.

I have no idea what you are trying to convey here. I don't know how this fits in our discussion, except that there is a resurrection and we will take up our bodies, incorruptible and immortal, same body as Christ has now, and with which He shall return as He promised the disciples watching Him disappear.

Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Continues on next reply:

again how does this address our discussion.

 

[Rightglory]

Just as Paul writes there is an order of the resurrection of Christ and His saints. Christ is the first resurrection of the dead both spiritually (Lu 23:46), and three days later He resurrected physically. So too at His first coming, by His cross and resurrection those who had already died are now with Christ in heaven a spiritual body, called a living soul.

First, Christ does not have a spiritual resurrection. Never heard of such a thing.
Those in heaven now, don't have a body at all. They are living souls. Christ's second coming is still future, so no one has a physical body yet that have died.

1 Corinthians 15:23 KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

After speaking of the spiritual resurrection, in the next few verses, Paul speaks of what those of faith of whom he was speaking to, can expect at the end, when the Kingdom of God shall be complete and delivered to the Father. That won't be until the last enemy, that is death has been destroyed. Which, as we read later is physical death when believers are bodily resurrected to immortality and incorruptible.

All the dead will be raised. There will be an order. but that does not exclude anyone. Every human being that will have ever lived on this earth to the last day, will have incorruptible and immortal bodies. It cannot be otherwise, unless you believe Christ did not rise from the dead, If that were true, then there is no resurrection whatsoever.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The following, lengthy passage from Scripture, where Paul is still addressing believers, he says some will ask how the dead are raised up, and with what body they shall be. Every man must die to be raised up, and that which is dead and buried is not the body that shall be. God will give man a body that pleases Him. Each body raised up, and to every seed his own body. Paul says all flesh differs one from another, and the flesh of men is not the same as beasts, fishes, or birds. And there is also celestial bodies, that are not the same as terrestrial bodies. Because celestial bodies are above the sky, heavenly bodies, but terrestrial bodies worldly, physical, of the earth.

When Paul says the resurrection of the dead that is sown in the earth, this is the physical body that is sown in corruption and shall be raised in incorruption, sown in dishonor, raised in glory, sown in weakness, raised in power, and sown a natural body, but raised a spiritual body. Spiritual bodies are not of flesh, not terrestrial, but are spirit, celestial, of heaven. That which is sown a natural body and shall be raised to immortality and incorruption is NOT the spiritual body that is raised when the natural body of mortal flesh is dead. The natural body and the spiritual body are not the same they differ one from another, and are raised first as spiritual bodies when our natural body of flesh dies, then as natural bodies made immortal in incorruptible when the last trump sounds. Our natural bodies must be changed because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:35-50 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Still addressing the faithful saints at Corinth, this last passage of Scripture Paul speaks of the physical resurrection that shall come, not when our body dies, when believers are raised spiritual bodies, but when the last trump sounds that time on this earth shall be no more. Every human will be physically resurrected in the same hour that is coming, this last hour, but in this passage Paul is only saying when and how believers physical bodies too shall also be resurrected to immortality and incorruptible and together with our spirit that God will bring with Him (1Th 4:14), and together body and spirit believers will be once more complete living souls, fit for the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Other than I had a difficult time following your discourse. It seemed disjointed there are two things I will address.
One, believers are always the purpose of scripture. It was written for the Church. You want to separate believers as if they are a different kind of humanity and when it comes to addressing other human beings you feel the need to make them different or excluded. you do know that believers become unbelievers. There is no difference in our human natures. Which is why the Incarnation is universal in its effect.
Secondly, your seemingly concept of what constitutes a spiritual body. Paul uses a synonym "heavenly as well. We will not exist as spirits which is what you seem to be saying. We will have glorified, heavenly bodies. If we were going to be spirit, there is no need to resurrect our bodies. Our bodies, all the dead will be incorruptible and immortal. even those in hell will of necessity be incorruptible since mortal death no longer exist, they will also be immortal because they will live an eternal existence as well.

 

[ChristisGod]

Why do you feel the need to insert (forgave us all our sins.). If is does then you also believe Christ was a sinner, since it states we were raised with Christ. This "life" is referring to Christ's resurrection by which He overcame death and why all men will be raised in the last day because He was raised.

Also the atonement did not forgive any sins in and of itself. His blood sacrifice makes it possible for a person to be reconciled to God by faith, repentance, and the forgiveness of sins. God forgives no sin without a believer repenting or confessing ones sins.

The triumph that is mentioned is over death, Heb 2:9; 14-16, the powers is Satan who held the power of death over mankind.

Here you underline the fact that Christ is reconciling the world to God. Why? So man could be reconciled to God through faith.

I can agree with most of your conclusion but why did you not include these texts in your discourse. Your discourse completely sidesteps the primary work of Christ but you include it in your summary.
What is PSA atonement?
Also, the use of the word wrath has been misused since Anselm in the 11th century. It has led to a lot of problems in understanding the atonement. Rather, it is God's justice whereby God will judge the world according to what each has done, Rom 2:3-5.

PSA stands for the penal substitution theory of the atonement.

 

[ChristisGod]

As we can see from Romans 5, we are saved by both his life and his death. But first comes the reconciliation, then comes salvation.

And most of all by His Resurrection by which He conquered sin, death and the evil.

 

[ChristisGod]

I don't disagree with most of what you state, however you don't even mention the primary purpose of His Atonement. You cite I Cor 15:17 but you fail to include that Christ died for all men, If the dead are not raised then Christ is not risen and if Christ is not risen then our faith is in vain. You have a summary of the fall of the first Adam with the solution by Christ, the Second Adam. vs 20-21. Christ died, reconciled the world to God, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, I John 2:2, Heb 2:9, 14-16. If Christ does not overcome the condemnation of death to Adam for his sin, then all is in vain, This is why the Holy Spirit is working in this world calling all men to repentance because God desires all men to be individually saved. That salvation is through faith. Man was created to have and share eternal life with God.

A blood sacrifice does not require a resurrection but overcoming death does. This is why Christ assumed our human natures, so that that human nature could be raised to life. I Cor 15: 53 also uses the universal "dead" being raised.

You should include Rom 3:24-25 where both are stated, Christ reconciling by Grace (the world, all men) which makes reconcilation of believers to God possible. This is also stated in II Cor 5:18-19. II Tim 1:10. Even John 3:16 states both, He loved the world, reconciling the world, so that those that believe could have eternal life. If Christ does not overcome death, eternal life is impossible. This is why Paul says even our faith would be in vain.

Here also you should have gone further in this context, Rom 5:18-19. His atonement was universal. The first or primary part, overcoming death will take place in the last day when all the dead will be raised. I Cor 15:53. The second part, the blood sacrifice was to make it possible for God to have union with sinful men in this world. That we can reconcile ourselves through faith and receive the forgiveness of sin., If we are faithful to that commitment of faith, we shall gain eternal life. I Pet 1:3-5.

Maybe I should post my paper on the topic here its much like a thesis paper. This OP was taken from my paper.

 

[ChristisGod]

Part 1

The Nature of God in the Atonement

Introduction- Definition of theology, attributes and nature of God, Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, and PSA (wrath of God arguments).

Thesis statement: Scripture does not teach that God’s wrath was poured out on Jesus.

Attributes of God and His unchanging nature.

Main Old Testament Passages where Penal Substitutionary Atonement is Derived From

Psalm 22

Isaiah 53

New Testament Interpretation of Isaiah 53

Matthew 8:14-17;

Mark 15:27-32;

John 12:37-41;

Luke 22:35-38;

Acts 8:26-35;

Romans 10:11-21;

1 Peter 2:19-25

Jesus as the Expiation for Sin in the Atonement

Propitiation

1 John 2:2; 4:10

Expiation—Jesus provided forgiveness and covering sin. Use the Jesus “types” (The flood demonstrated the wrath of God whereas the Ark was the type of Jesus. The Ark did not receive God’s wrath—it protected Noah’s family from God’s wrath).

Conclusion

This paper is about the Trinity, and the penal substitutionary theory of the atonement (e.g., PSA), as it relates to the nature and character of God. The word Theology refers to the study of God, and God is Triune, a Trinity- Tri-Unity. All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature.

God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John tells us.

We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.

God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.

Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. Why? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.

The messianic passage of Psalm 22 was played out before their very eyes, and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah, by quoting Psalm 22. The passage was being lived out before all witnesses of the crucifixion. It is a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, God's One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many.

What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone, but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. Moreover, let us not forget Jesus' promise to the sinner, "Today, you will be with me in paradise (insert bible reference)." For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. The Trinity was never fractured, broken, or severed for even a moment, but together, the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners. It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning. Furthermore, when this reconciliation took place at the cross, we read that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - 2 Corinthians 5:19. The book of Romans states that "God demonstrated His love for us that while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (5:8). So Jesus' sacrificial atonement both propitiates (turns away God’s wrath) and expiates (covers our sins). Gods’ wrath does not fall on the sacrifice. Scripture teaches us that sin was condemned in the flesh, not that Jesus was condemned (Romans 8:3).

Psalm 22
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But You, O Lord, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.
Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.

 

[ChristisGod]

Part 2

There are eight points about God and Jesus' last words that are important to examine. Some people taught when Jesus said (My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me) that the Father departed, deserted, and turned His back upon His Son to bear God’s wrath on the cross. They teach from the pulpits that God is too Holy to look upon sin. However, is this teaching biblical? Is it true?

1-God is Triune- Tri-Unity

2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated, or abandoned.

3- God does not send His wrath against God

4- Jesus is God

5- Context has meaning, and all the gospel accounts work together along with the O.T. quotations

6-In Luke 23:46, Jesus' last words were," Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit."

7- Within Psalm 22, there are numerous details regarding Jesus' crucifixion. For example, Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him. Further, Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help.

8- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus' trust and relationship with the Father when he states, "Into your hands, I commit MY Spirit."


Though often taught from the pulpit and widely accepted within Christianity, there is a common misnomer that God cannot look upon sin.

This misnomer or idea is rooted in a misunderstanding of Habakkuk 1:13, which states, "Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil." To expand upon the meaning of this verse, God cannot look at sin favorably or with complacency. However, this verse does not state that God cannot look at sin or that He cannot allow sin in His presence. God did not turn His back on Adam when he sinned--God sought him out. God did not turn His back on David when he sinned. In the book of Job, God allowed satan in His presence for a specific purpose. Satan wanted to make a deal with God over His servant, Job. God restricted Satan, telling him that he "can do anything but touch Job" and not to "lay a hand or finger on him." In the wilderness, Jesus allowed the presence of satan (face to face).

Jesus did not turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and sought him out on the Damascus Road and said to him," why are you persecuting Me?" If God did not turn His back on sinners, then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. The Father turning His back on the Son (at the cross) is not found in Scripture. Jesus ate with sinners, lived among sinners, loves sinners and He suffered and died for sinners.

Wrath- strongs 3709 ὀργή is defined in the Greek lexicon as anger, retribution, vengeance, and indignation. God is not against Himself angrily displaying wrath from the Father to the Son. God is love. In love, He sent His Son. The wrath bearing Son is a new concept not found in Scripture nor the early church fathers (ECFs). God is not against Himself. No one in the Trinity is in opposition, no conflict, no dissension, no strife, no disunity, no dysfunction. As if God were somehow like a sinful human family. There is nothing broken in Our Blessed Trinity.

Jesus bearing God’s wrath and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in the pages of Scripture. That doctrine was developed in the dark ages during the Reformation and called Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement or PSA.

Calvin's comments on Galatians 3:13,
"He could not cease to be the object of his Father’s love, and yet he endured his wrath. For how could he reconcile the Father to us, if he had incurred his hatred and displeasure? We conclude, that he “did always those things that pleased” (John 8:29) his Father. Again, how would he have freed us from the wrath of God, if he had not transferred it from us to himself? Thus, “he was wounded for our transgressions,” (Isaiah 53:5,) and had to deal with God as an angry judge."



The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.


Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.

In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":

Matthew 20:17-
Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

1 Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.

2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.

Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.



Wrath from God is not required for the forgiveness of sins, that is a misnomer.

Exodus 34:6
Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth;

Isaiah 48:9
For the sake of My name I will delay My wrath; for the sake of My praise I will restrain it, so that you will not be cut off.

Psalm 78:38
And yet He was compassionate; He forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them. He often restrained His anger and did not unleash His full wrath.

Psalm 85:1-3
You, Lord, showed favor to your land;
you restored the fortunes of Jacob.
2 You forgave the iniquity of your people
and covered all their sins.
3 You set aside all your wrath
and turned from your fierce anger.

The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)

Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.

In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.

 

[ChristisGod]

Part 3

Atonement- katallagé καταλλαγή -reconciliation, restoration to favor. Strongs 2643.

Thayers: adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favor, (from Aeschylus on); in the N. T., of the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ: 2 Corinthians 5:18f; with the genitive of the one received into favor, τοῦ κόσμου (opposed to ἀποβολή), Romans 11:15; καταλλαγήν ἐλάβομεν, we received the blessing of the recovered favor of God, Romans 5:11; with the genitive of him whose favor is recovered, 2 Macc. 5:20. (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.)

Romans 5:11- And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. KJV

Romans 5:11- And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. NASB

1 Corinthians 5:7 say the following: For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. This means just like the firstborn were spared by the blood on the posts of their doors from God’s wrath so to are we passed over Gods wrath from the blood of Jesus. The blood of Jesus provides forgiveness of sins and God’s wrath like with the Israelites are passed over and it falls upon the wicked, not those covered and protected by the blood of the Lamb. Gods’ wrath as Romans 1 declares is still being poured out upon sin and ungodliness and the bowls of Gods wrath and punishment is still yet to come. So, if Jesus bore Gods’ wrath for sinners, then why is God’s wrath still being poured out now and in the future if in the Atonement Gods wrath was satisfied? The fact is Jesus did not bear God’s wrath on the cross because it still exists and is being poured out in the bowls of Revelation before His 2nd Coming.

Romans 1:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness

Romans 5:9- Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!

Colossians 3:6-Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.

Ephesians 5:6- Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience

1 Thessalonians 1:10- and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Propitiation- the turning away of God's anger/wrath

Expiation- the covering for our sins

Through expiation—the work of Christ on the cross for us—the sin of all those who would ever believe in Christ was canceled. That cancellation is eternal in its consequence, even though sin is still present in the temporal sense. In other words, believers are delivered from the penalty and power of sin, but not the presence of it. Justification is the term for being delivered from the penalty of sin. This is a one-time act wherein the sinner is justified and made holy and righteous in the eyes of God, who exchanged our sinful natures for the righteousness of Christ at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). Sanctification is the ongoing process whereby believers are delivered from the power of sin in their lives and are enabled by the new nature to resist and turn away from it. Glorification is when we are removed from the very presence of sin, which will only occur once we leave this world and are in heaven. All these processes—justification, sanctification, and glorification—are made possible through the expiation or cancellation of sin. (gotquestions.org)


Propitiation vs. Expiation- The New Testament usage of hilaskomai and hilasmos, consistent with its precedent usage in the Greek Old Testament, speaks consistently of God’s atoning action in Christ directed toward sin on behalf of sinners, not human action directed toward God to satisfy God. The criterion for interpretation, Stott has said, “is whether the object of the atoning action is God or man.” “Propitiation” indicates an action by humans directed toward God, and “expiation” indicates an action by God toward sin and sinners. According to Stott's criterion, these texts favor "expiation" over “propitiation.” Given the choice of translating hilastērion either “propitiation” or “expiation,” therefore, “expiation” is preferable based on the textual evidence of both the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament. James Dunn summarizes well the case for preferring “expiation” to “propitiation” as a translation for hilastērion: Darrin W. Snyder Belousek, Atonement, Justice, and Peace: The Message of the Cross and the Mission of the Church (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2012), 247–252.

So, as we see, the Tri-Unity of God is eternal, and the Father / Son relationship remained perfect through the crucifixion of Jesus. Our Triune God perfectly accomplished the atonement and our salvation through Jesus suffering for our sins on the cross, and His Resurrection from the dead gave Him and the church victory over sin, death, the devil, and the world.

Purification for sin- καθαρισμός- katharismos: a cleansing, purifying, purification, expiation. Strongs 2512.

Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): wrought now by baptism, 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22)

Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

 

[ChristisGod]

Part 4

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.

There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.

Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)

Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many

hilastērion – the atonement is received by Faith.

Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. NIV

Romans 3:25
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ESV

The Atonement is received by faith. The offering of the Atonement for sin cannot be obtained apart from faith. The atonement for sin has been made and it cannot be applied to mankind apart from faith. Jesus has made an atonement for sin but it produces no reconciliation, no pardon from sin, no remission of sin unless is accepted or received by faith.

The fallacy of the sufficient for all, efficient for some with the Atonement.

We must go back to the gospel and what the scriptures teach about the good news of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as defined in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.

Romans 4:24-25
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.

Sin is the transgression of the law- 1 John 3:4. Sin is known thorough/by the law- Romans 7:7. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ- Galatians 3:24-25. Where there is no law there is no transgression of the law- Romans 4:14. Sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

In Colossians 2:13-15 we read the following: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Ephesians 2:14-15: For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

So, we see from the above scriptures it’s not sin perse that keeps the sinner from God it is unbelief. Faith is the issue. In Romans 5:1-2 we read the following: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God

Its unbelief that keeps one from salvation and places them under condemnation. This is taught throughout the N.T. gospels and epistles. Here we see what Jesus and Paul declared below.

John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them

Romans 11:20: Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.

Hebrews 3:19: So, we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Cf Heb 4:6- unbelief

 

[ChristisGod]

Part 5

Conclusion
As we have seen reading through these O.T. passages quoted in the N.T., we discover that the N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement. There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. The viewpoint in this paper brings out the fact that Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins. And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).

In conclusion its faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)