The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[brightfame52]

RG

Where have I ever stated that Christ's death doesn't save?

Right here

The word "salvation is used in context because it means different things in scripture.
If you mean did Christ through His humanity, death and resurrection save, redeem, all those who are human beings from death, then the answer is Yes.
If you mean salvation through faith, then No.

And you said

Christ's death does not covert a single person

Thats a lie because bringing one to God is conversion, and its another phase of Salvation

 

[Randy Kluth]

1 Peter 1.3 In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade...
18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God...
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Looking carefully at what Peter is saying, we note the connection between immortality, resurrection from the dead, and the hope of the Church. This word is coming to the Church from God to give to believers things that are indestructible. Christ's act was not just a legal act enabling all of mankind to rise from the dead. Much more, it was a statement of God's destiny for all of mankind, judgment for the wicked and reward for the righteous.

This imperishable hope is given by the preaching of the word and received by those who believe, repent of their sins, and put on Christ as their righteousness. And it is an as-yet unconsummated hope preserved and reserved in heaven to be given to us at the proper time. That is, it is the hope of Eternal Life for believers, and not a hope that is shared with unbelievers who have been given, since creation, an eternal existence.

 

[Rightglory]

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. But I'm not fine with your saying I have "different views of who Christ is." I hold to biblical authority and to the creeds. This is *who Christ is!*

You are here entering into a semantics difficulty. "Mortal" means different things depending on the context. It can mean simply the ability to die. It can also refer to human degradation by sin, making it destined for death.

Adam was created capable of dying, though only if he sinned. At the point he had not yet sinned, he was not, in a sense, "mortal." But neither was he "immortal," or fixed as an innocent being. He had the capacity to fall from innocence and into what we often refer to as a state of "mortality." All men die because all men have a Sin Nature. Therefore, all of mankind are mortal.

There is the fallen nature of Man, and the regenerate nature of Man when he lives under the control of God's Word. When mankind lives autonomously, he may at times choose to obey or cooperate with God's Word. But inasmuch as he is in charge, his nature is fallen and is degenerate. But when men not just occasionally cooperate with God's Word and chose instead to commit their entire life to the authority of Christ they will reflect a new nature, consistent with that choice.

Yes, the nature of fallen Man and the nature of Christian men are very different, one led by the corrupt flesh, and the other led by the Spirit of God. One produces the fruit of selfish Man, whereas the other produces the fruits of the Spirit. I should think you know this?

I never said Christ's resurrection had no effect. He represented God's view of Man universally, as condemned to death as autonomous men and saved by grace for those who cast themselves upon the mercy of Christ. Those who unite with Christ spiritually benefit from his virtues as well as from his salvation, or grace. Those who reject his grace face the sin by which Christ was rejected.

All will, like Christ, be raised from the dead. But some will be raised to judgment for having rejected Christ, and some will be raised to immortality in the sense that their fellowship with God will become inviolable and indestructible.

This is what "immortality" means in context--not just eternal existence, nor the inability to die, but rather, inability to be separated from the virtuous and blessed life of Christ. Paul is speaking of a technical application of "immortality" to believers in the sense of inability to die *spiritually.*

I'm not making an "amazing statement." I'm stating what the Scriptures state, namely that Sin has caused and continues to cause all men to be subject to mortality, or death. We already have a Sin Nature, and thus are mortal and subject to death. But we continue to sin, having that Sin Nature, confirming the original sentence, that being sinners we must physically die.

Yes, thanks for the correction. Paul is applying "immortality" and "resurrection" in a special way to believers, and not to unbelievers. Even though unbelievers I agree will never suffer extinction, and in that sense become "immortal," that is not the way Paul is applying the term "immortal." He is speaking of a spiritual relationship with God, a relationship that when originally broken led to the physical death of all men.

So for unregenerate, unsaved Man there will be eternal existence spiritually separated from the life and virtues of Christ, which we call "spiritual death." But for regenerate, saved Man there will be immortality and resurrection to the new life of the Spirit, comprising an eternal, unbreakable relationship with God.

As I said above, I hold to the biblical view that the regenerate nature of the Christian is different from the unregenerate nature of the unbeliever. Yielding not just part of our life, but our whole life to Christ yields a new nature, made after the image of Christ.

As such, I do believe that atonement suffices only for the believers in terms of giving them this new nature. How can a sacrifice of atonement reconcile people who do not make use of that atonement, who do not repent of their sins and who therefore do not actually obtain forgiveness?

But Christ did make atonement *for the whole world* in the sense that it made grace available for all men. It just isn't effective in changing their lives or in giving them an eternal relationship with God if they don't make use of it and repent of their autonomous living.

You said: "
I'm not making an "amazing statement." I'm stating what the Scriptures state, namely that Sin has caused and continues to cause all men to be subject to mortality, or death. We already have a Sin Nature, and thus are mortal and subject to death. But we continue to sin, having that Sin Nature, confirming the original sentence, that being sinners we must physically die."

scripture never states what you stated but the very opposite. It is death that is the cause of our sin, our mortality. Our fallen human nature causes us to sin and it NEVER has changed in the existence of the human race. We got that mortal sin nature as the result of the condemnation of Adam's sin. Rom 5:12, I Cor 15:20-22. I Cor 15:56.

You said: "As I said above, I hold to the biblical view that the regenerate nature of the Christian is different from the unregenerate nature of the unbeliever. Yielding not just part of our life, but our whole life to Christ yields a new nature, made after the image of Christ."
this life.

I agree that our spiritual nature is different, But that has nothing to do with our mortal nature, our fallen nature which has not changed since Adam. Our spiritual relationship is static, it is not constant or final until we leave this earth.

You said: "
As such, I do believe that atonement suffices only for the believers in terms of giving them this new nature. How can a sacrifice of atonement reconcile people who do not make use of that atonement, who do not repent of their sins and who therefore do not actually obtain forgiveness?"

What do you believe? universal atonement, or limited atonement. This statement seems you what both but cannot decide. The atonement for sin is the only aspect you are speaking about and it is only used by those who believe. The 'Atonement itself does not grant anyone a relationship. It makes a relationship possible because of the forgiveness of sin. Every human being has access to this atonement. or anyone can believe. After all, God is calling all men to repentance.
However this atonement for sin has no effect whatsoever unless man's curse of death is cured. Christ took on our human nature to heal that human nature to bring it from mortal in immortal for all men. If not then I Cor 15:16-17 applies. Either Christ raises all men through His own resurrection or He raises none.
There cannot be such a thing as limited atonement. It is an impossibility. Christ's redemptive work is complete. It is a gift to mankind, for God did not need to redeem His creation. But He also could not permit Satan to rule the world through his power of death and sin. Heb 2:14-17. However Christ did this in order to redeem His creation, To bring His creation back to its original state which it will be in the end. He did it so He could continue to have a relationship with His creatures, even in this life while still in our fallen human nature, which is why He created man in the first place. To give and return love, man must of necessity be free, be able to choose that relationship. This is what man is doing in this dispensation. They are all answering to the call of the Holy Spirit working in this world in calling all men to repentance. Those that accept, believe, repent, and can have their sins forgiven to continue in this relationship.

And Yes, ALL MEN will be raised in the last day because Christ arose from the dead with our human nature. A nature possessed by all men. No exceptions. The world itself will be made new because He arose.
All men will be the very same in the eschaton, incorruptible, immortal. The ONLY difference is that believers will be given eternal life, a continuing spiritual relationship for an eternity. Unbelievers will be separated from God for an eternity. We will exist in a new heaven and new earth. What that actually entails I cannot say.

 

[Rightglory]

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. But I'm not fine with your saying I have "different views of who Christ is." I hold to biblical authority and to the creeds. This is *who Christ is!*

You are here entering into a semantics difficulty. "Mortal" means different things depending on the context. It can mean simply the ability to die. It can also refer to human degradation by sin, making it destined for death.

Adam was created capable of dying, though only if he sinned. At the point he had not yet sinned, he was not, in a sense, "mortal." But neither was he "immortal," or fixed as an innocent being. He had the capacity to fall from innocence and into what we often refer to as a state of "mortality." All men die because all men have a Sin Nature. Therefore, all of mankind are mortal.

There is the fallen nature of Man, and the regenerate nature of Man when he lives under the control of God's Word. When mankind lives autonomously, he may at times choose to obey or cooperate with God's Word. But inasmuch as he is in charge, his nature is fallen and is degenerate. But when men not just occasionally cooperate with God's Word and chose instead to commit their entire life to the authority of Christ they will reflect a new nature, consistent with that choice.

Yes, the nature of fallen Man and the nature of Christian men are very different, one led by the corrupt flesh, and the other led by the Spirit of God. One produces the fruit of selfish Man, whereas the other produces the fruits of the Spirit. I should think you know this?

I never said Christ's resurrection had no effect. He represented God's view of Man universally, as condemned to death as autonomous men and saved by grace for those who cast themselves upon the mercy of Christ. Those who unite with Christ spiritually benefit from his virtues as well as from his salvation, or grace. Those who reject his grace face the sin by which Christ was rejected.

All will, like Christ, be raised from the dead. But some will be raised to judgment for having rejected Christ, and some will be raised to immortality in the sense that their fellowship with God will become inviolable and indestructible.

This is what "immortality" means in context--not just eternal existence, nor the inability to die, but rather, inability to be separated from the virtuous and blessed life of Christ. Paul is speaking of a technical application of "immortality" to believers in the sense of inability to die *spiritually.*

I'm not making an "amazing statement." I'm stating what the Scriptures state, namely that Sin has caused and continues to cause all men to be subject to mortality, or death. We already have a Sin Nature, and thus are mortal and subject to death. But we continue to sin, having that Sin Nature, confirming the original sentence, that being sinners we must physically die.

Yes, thanks for the correction. Paul is applying "immortality" and "resurrection" in a special way to believers, and not to unbelievers. Even though unbelievers I agree will never suffer extinction, and in that sense become "immortal," that is not the way Paul is applying the term "immortal." He is speaking of a spiritual relationship with God, a relationship that when originally broken led to the physical death of all men.

So for unregenerate, unsaved Man there will be eternal existence spiritually separated from the life and virtues of Christ, which we call "spiritual death." But for regenerate, saved Man there will be immortality and resurrection to the new life of the Spirit, comprising an eternal, unbreakable relationship with God.

As I said above, I hold to the biblical view that the regenerate nature of the Christian is different from the unregenerate nature of the unbeliever. Yielding not just part of our life, but our whole life to Christ yields a new nature, made after the image of Christ.

As such, I do believe that atonement suffices only for the believers in terms of giving them this new nature. How can a sacrifice of atonement reconcile people who do not make use of that atonement, who do not repent of their sins and who therefore do not actually obtain forgiveness?

But Christ did make atonement *for the whole world* in the sense that it made grace available for all men. It just isn't effective in changing their lives or in giving them an eternal relationship with God if they don't make use of it and repent of their autonomous living.

You said: "
I'm not making an "amazing statement." I'm stating what the Scriptures state, namely that Sin has caused and continues to cause all men to be subject to mortality, or death. We already have a Sin Nature, and thus are mortal and subject to death. But we continue to sin, having that Sin Nature, confirming the original sentence, that being sinners we must physically die."

scripture never states what you stated but the very opposite. It is death that is the cause of our sin, our mortality. Our fallen human nature causes us to sin and it NEVER has changed in the existence of the human race. We got that mortal sin nature as the result of the condemnation of Adam's sin. Rom 5:12, I Cor 15:20-22. I Cor 15:56.

You said: "As I said above, I hold to the biblical view that the regenerate nature of the Christian is different from the unregenerate nature of the unbeliever. Yielding not just part of our life, but our whole life to Christ yields a new nature, made after the image of Christ."
this life.

I agree that our spiritual nature is different, But that has nothing to do with our mortal nature, our fallen nature which has not changed since Adam. Our spiritual relationship is static, it is not constant or final until we leave this earth.

You said: "
As such, I do believe that atonement suffices only for the believers in terms of giving them this new nature. How can a sacrifice of atonement reconcile people who do not make use of that atonement, who do not repent of their sins and who therefore do not actually obtain forgiveness?"

What do you believe? universal atonement, or limited atonement. This statement seems you what both but cannot decide. The atonement for sin is the only aspect you are speaking about and it is only used by those who believe. The 'Atonement itself does not grant anyone a relationship. It makes a relationship possible because of the forgiveness of sin. Every human being has access to this atonement. or anyone can believe. After all, God is calling all men to repentance.
However this atonement for sin has no effect whatsoever unless man's curse of death is cured. Christ took on our human nature to heal that human nature to bring it from mortal in immortal for all men. If not then I Cor 15:16-17 applies. Either Christ raises all men through His own resurrection or He raises none.
There cannot be such a thing as limited atonement. It is an impossibility. Christ's redemptive work is complete. It is a gift to mankind, for God did not need to redeem His creation. But He also could not permit Satan to rule the world through his power of death and sin. Heb 2:14-17. However Christ did this in order to redeem His creation, To bring His creation back to its original state which it will be in the end. He did it so He could continue to have a relationship with His creatures, even in this life while still in our fallen human nature, which is why He created man in the first place. To give and return love, man must of necessity be free, be able to choose that relationship. This is what man is doing in this dispensation. They are all answering to the call of the Holy Spirit working in this world in calling all men to repentance. Those that accept, believe, repent, and can have their sins forgiven to continue in this relationship.

And Yes, ALL MEN will be raised in the last day because Christ arose from the dead with our human nature. A nature possessed by all men. No exceptions. The world itself will be made new because He arose.
All men will be the very same in the eschaton, incorruptible, immortal. The ONLY difference is that believers will be given eternal life, a continuing spiritual relationship for an eternity. Unbelievers will be separated from God for an eternity. We will exist in a new heaven and new earth. What that actually entails I cannot say.

 

[Rightglory]

1 Peter 1.3 In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade...
18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God...
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Looking carefully at what Peter is saying, we note the connection between immortality, resurrection from the dead, and the hope of the Church. This word is coming to the Church from God to give to believers things that are indestructible. Christ's act was not just a legal act enabling all of mankind to rise from the dead. Much more, it was a statement of God's destiny for all of mankind, judgment for the wicked and reward for the righteous.

This imperishable hope is given by the preaching of the word and received by those who believe, repent of their sins, and put on Christ as their righteousness. And it is an as-yet unconsummated hope preserved and reserved in heaven to be given to us at the proper time. That is, it is the hope of Eternal Life for believers, and not a hope that is shared with unbelievers who have been given, since creation, an eternal existence.

All you are stating is the life of a believer. But that life is not even possible except that Christ redeemed the world, defeated death and sin.
Your last sentence is crucial. All men were created to an eternal existence. Not just unbelievers. Why would Christ, through the work of the Holy Spirit in this present world call all men to repentance if only some have this special dispensation you are trying to describe that they are different kind of human being. Seems you have decided to hold to limited atonement whereby God imparts to only some elect the ability to believe and condemns the rest of the human race with no opportunity to believe. How is that a God of love who loveth all mankind.
How could God judge these individuals?
Scripture clearly states that He calls all men to repentance. II Pet 3:9 or in Rom1:18-21. All men know God in some fashion because God made Himself manifest to them. That's why they can be judged. They of their own free will rejected God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

All you are stating is the life of a believer. But that life is not even possible except that Christ redeemed the world, defeated death and sin.
Your last sentence is crucial. All men were created to an eternal existence. Not just unbelievers. Why would Christ, through the work of the Holy Spirit in this present world call all men to repentance if only some have this special dispensation you are trying to describe that they are different kind of human being. Seems you have decided to hold to limited atonement whereby God imparts to only some elect the ability to believe and condemns the rest of the human race with no opportunity to believe. How is that a God of love who loveth all mankind.
How could God judge these individuals?
Scripture clearly states that He calls all men to repentance. II Pet 3:9 or in Rom1:18-21. All men know God in some fashion because God made Himself manifest to them. That's why they can be judged. They of their own free will rejected God.

I'm failing to understand your argument. All I said was that Paul was speaking in terms of how Christ's atonement applies to Christians who access that atonement by believing in it and by acting on it. I never said they were a different human being or belonging to a special dispensation--those are all your words.

You're saying Christ's atonement was directed to both believers and unbelievers alike. I disagree. The atonement was a provision for all, but was directed towards results. It was directed towards those who would turn to faith and act on that atonement. I see nothing controversial about that?

Again, it's like my providing arrangements for the whole class to go to a conference to discuss its future. It may be valid for the whole class, but it is designed only for those who will make use of it.

The atonement of Christ was provided for all, but was specifically designed to be put into use, to lead to repentance and to righteousness--in fact, to a new nature. Those who refuse to make use of it do *not* benefit from it.

Christ's atonement was not designed to provide eternal existence for unbelievers--that was already a given from the creation. The atonement was about restoration to God for those who make use of it. It was designed to reverse the course of Man in choosing to live apart from God.

As such, Christ's atonement provided for that restored relationship. The resurrection was a resurrection to a restored spiritual life with God with no more threat of physical death, or any kind of separation from God's Kingdom. The only thing Christ's atonement does for unbelievers who reject his provision is raise them up in judgment to be separated forever from the presence of God.

 

[Rightglory]

I'm failing to understand your argument. All I said was that Paul was speaking in terms of how Christ's atonement applies to Christians who access that atonement by believing in it and by acting on it. I never said they were a different human being or belonging to a special dispensation--those are all your words.

You're saying Christ's atonement was directed to both believers and unbelievers alike. I disagree. The atonement was a provision for all, but was directed towards results. It was directed towards those who would turn to faith and act on that atonement. I see nothing controversial about that?

Again, it's like my providing arrangements for the whole class to go to a conference to discuss its future. It may be valid for the whole class, but it is designed only for those who will make use of it.

The atonement of Christ was provided for all, but was specifically designed to be put into use, to lead to repentance and to righteousness--in fact, to a new nature. Those who refuse to make use of it do *not* benefit from it.

Christ's atonement was not designed to provide eternal existence for unbelievers--that was already a given from the creation. The atonement was about restoration to God for those who make use of it. It was designed to reverse the course of Man in choosing to live apart from God.

As such, Christ's atonement provided for that restored relationship. The resurrection was a resurrection to a restored spiritual life with God with no more threat of physical death, or any kind of separation from God's Kingdom. The only thing Christ's atonement does for unbelievers who reject his provision is raise them up in judgment to be separated forever from the presence of God.

You said: Christ's atonement was not designed to provide eternal existence for unbelievers--that was already a given from the creation."

I don't disagree with your explanation of how a believer uses the atonement for sin, We have never disagreed on that point.
However you ONLY speak of ONE aspect of the atonement. You don't even recognize His Humanity for the purpose of overcoming death. Adam was created to be in union with God, all men were. But Adam sinned. He did not just separate spiritually from God, a relationship, but the world was condemned along with him to death. Dust to Dust. Man, Adam was not created to be mortal.

Christ came to reconcile that world back to Him and defeat Satan who had the power of death but was defeated by Christ's resurrection.
You deny this aspect of His work which makes your whole view, scripturally in vain. Your belief is in vain I Cor 15:17-19. Vs 20-22 cannot be more plain, that ALL MEN WILL BE RAISED BECAUSE CHRIST AROSE FROM THE DEAD.
Your view as stated denies that unbelievers ever suffered this curse. That they will miraculously be raised from the dead as it was provided at the creation. The problem with that view, death was never provided in the beginning, there would have been no unbelievers, thus no need for a resurrection.
Unbelievers are a part of humanity. They are human beings. No man can reject the primary aspect of Christ work, defeating death. But man can freely reject his offer of a relationship with Him. The atonement for sin can ONLY be accessed through faith. It is NOT given cart blanche as some believe. It can also be rejected at anytime in the lifetime of a believer. He will become an unbeliever.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You said: Christ's atonement was not designed to provide eternal existence for unbelievers--that was already a given from the creation."

I don't disagree with your explanation of how a believer uses the atonement for sin, We have never disagreed on that point.
However you ONLY speak of ONE aspect of the atonement. You don't even recognize His Humanity for the purpose of overcoming death. Adam was created to be in union with God, all men were. But Adam sinned. He did not just separate spiritually from God, a relationship, but the world was condemned along with him to death. Dust to Dust. Man, Adam was not created to be mortal.

There's that word "mortal" again! It is, as I said, misleading because nobody knows what being "mortal" or not was like before Man sinned? That he could fall was obvious. Perhaps that meant he was, in fact, "mortal?" Or, if you define "mortal" as having a Sin Nature and destined for death, then I suppose Adam wasn't "mortal" before he sinned? Do you see the problem?

It really depends on how you define "mortal," since the word itself is not used in Genesis. Adam was not originally fated for death. But after sinning, he was. He became a "Sinful Mortal," having a Sin Nature and now destined to die.

I'm not saying that Jesus' resurrection had nothing to do with the resurrection of the unjust. I'm just saying that the atonement of Christ did not benefit unbelievers by giving them a restored spiritual relationship with God forever and ever. We agree on at least some of this, thankfully!

Christ came to reconcile that world back to Him and defeat Satan who had the power of death but was defeated by Christ's resurrection.
You deny this aspect of His work which makes your whole view, scripturally in vain. Your belief is in vain I Cor 15:17-19. Vs 20-22 cannot be more plain, that ALL MEN WILL BE RAISED BECAUSE CHRIST AROSE FROM THE DEAD.

I'm not rejecting the notion that Christ's resurrection enables *all men* to rise from the dead. I'm just emphasizing what the Scriptures emphasze. What you're saying the Scriptures do *not* emphasize. Rather, they focus strictly on the benefit believers have when they make use of Christ's atonement, repent, believe on that atonement, and enjoy unbroken relationship with God through Christ.

Your view as stated denies that unbelievers ever suffered this curse. That they will miraculously be raised from the dead as it was provided at the creation. The problem with that view, death was never provided in the beginning, there would have been no unbelievers, thus no need for a resurrection.

I never denied that all of humanity suffered the curse of death due to Adam's sin. On the contraire.

Unbelievers are a part of humanity. They are human beings. No man can reject the primary aspect of Christ work, defeating death. But man can freely reject his offer of a relationship with Him. The atonement for sin can ONLY be accessed through faith. It is NOT given cart blanche as some believe. It can also be rejected at anytime in the lifetime of a believer. He will become an unbeliever.

If you want to focus on the eternity of the unbeliever I can do that too. It's just not the focus of the Scriptures, because God's doesn't waste His words on those who choose not to believe His words.

I also believe unbelievers will rise from the dead. Further, I don't believe in Dante's Inferno, that God roasts unbelievers over a fire forever and ever because He's so mad and just can't help answering His need for "justice."

Rather, I believe God has a planet or somewhere for unbelievers to be imprisoned, where they cannot bring their ways into God's universe. He wants a universe that reflects obedience to His lordship, and not a universe filled with rebellion and self-autonomy. God makes the universe spin properly, and the earth was created as a paradise for believers--not unbelievers.

Unbelievers are separated as by a fire, just as a fire destroys trash from our communities. But that fire is meant to *remove*--not to torture. The punishment is eternal separation from the paradise of God's blessed Kingdom--not being roasted minute by minute, hour by hour. God isn't like that. Dante should've known that, but he was taking the Scripture hyper-literally. He was missing the meaning and use of the metaphor of "fire."

So people who are lost from this blessed paradise will be in "Outer Darkness," but they will be resurrected into new bodies, and have an eternity established in the bland world of self-determination. Only God cannot let them have their own way, and they will be forced to pursue works that please God, even though it crosses their will. It will be much like the current world, without all of the killing. My opinion and interpretation only.

 

[Rightglory]

There's that word "mortal" again! It is, as I said, misleading because nobody knows what being "mortal" or not was like before Man sinned? That he could fall was obvious. Perhaps that meant he was, in fact, "mortal?" Or, if you define "mortal" as having a Sin Nature and destined for death, then I suppose Adam wasn't "mortal" before he sinned? Do you see the problem?

It really depends on how you define "mortal," since the word itself is not used in Genesis. Adam was not originally fated for death. But after sinning, he was. He became a "Sinful Mortal," having a Sin Nature and now destined to die.

Applicable definition of mortal - the ability to die physically or subject to death, as in human being. There was no such thing as mortal in existence. God's statement that if Adam ate of the Tree of Good and Evil he would die. That was physical death. Dust to dust,
I don't know what a sin nature might be. We have a mortal nature that makes us susceptible to sin. We can choose to sin. Otherwise repentance and obedience means nothing.

I'm not saying that Jesus' resurrection had nothing to do with the resurrection of the unjust. I'm just saying that the atonement of Christ did not benefit unbelievers by giving them a restored spiritual relationship with God forever and ever. We agree on at least some of this, thankfully!

It surely benefited unbelievers. It makes the possibility of any human being to have a relationship with Christ freely choosing to do so. Which is why the Holy Spirit can call all men to repentance. He is calling unbelievers, not believers.

I'm not rejecting the notion that Christ's resurrection enables *all men* to rise from the dead. I'm just emphasizing what the Scriptures emphasze. What you're saying the Scriptures do *not* emphasize. Rather, they focus strictly on the benefit believers have when they make use of Christ's atonement, repent, believe on that atonement, and enjoy unbroken relationship with God through Christ.

Emphasize is not the best word,
The whole of the Gospel is about God calling all men. He wants fellowship with all men. That relationship in this world is solely possible or dependent of the whole work of Christ. That is, overcoming death and sin which man could not do. A lot, or even most of the
Gospels in exhorting those that believe, to hold fast, to remain faithful, to continue in faith, and seek forgiveness when we sin.

I never denied that all of humanity suffered the curse of death due to Adam's sin. On the contraire.

But you have very strongly objected to the fact that Christ died for all men, to redeem, reconcile, justify all men and this world to Himself to defeat Satan who has the power over death.

If you want to focus on the eternity of the unbeliever I can do that too. It's just not the focus of the Scriptures, because God's doesn't waste His words on those who choose not to believe His words.

Only one place in scripture is it stated that God gives up a person to his wickedness. Rom 1:24-32. Otherwise it is God continuing to call, to knock, to influence man to believe or to return to Him.

I also believe unbelievers will rise from the dead. Further, I don't believe in Dante's Inferno, that God roasts unbelievers over a fire forever and ever because He's so mad and just can't help answering His need for "justice."

Rather, I believe God has a planet or somewhere for unbelievers to be imprisoned, where they cannot bring their ways into God's universe. He wants a universe that reflects obedience to His lordship, and not a universe filled with rebellion and self-autonomy. God makes the universe spin properly, and the earth was created as a paradise for believers--not unbelievers.

Unbelievers are separated as by a fire, just as a fire destroys trash from our communities. But that fire is meant to *remove*--not to torture. The punishment is eternal separation from the paradise of God's blessed Kingdom--not being roasted minute by minute, hour by hour. God isn't like that. Dante should've known that, but he was taking the Scripture hyper-literally. He was missing the meaning and use of the metaphor of "fire."

So people who are lost from this blessed paradise will be in "Outer Darkness," but they will be resurrected into new bodies, and have an eternity established in the bland world of self-determination. Only God cannot let them have their own way, and they will be forced to pursue works that please God, even though it crosses their will. It will be much like the current world, without all of the killing. My opinion and interpretation only.

That is a wholly new and different topic.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Applicable definition of mortal - the ability to die physically or subject to death, as in human being.

So you think human beings will stop being human beings when they achieve immortality? Again, the word "mortal" is not in the biblical text. So it depends on how we as individuals choose to use the word and in what context we use the word.

I prefer to see Adam and Eve as "mortals" before they sinned, because they could choose to sin and die. They were given the opportunity to become immortal simply by choosing to live in the image of God and simultaneously choose to eat of the Tree of Life. That is immortality, for me, because then Man could no longer die.

There was no such thing as mortal in existence. God's statement that if Adam ate of the Tree of Good and Evil he would die. That was physical death. Dust to dust,

It depends, as I said, on how you're using the word "mortal." I tend to think that if Adam and Eve could choose to sin and die, then there can be defined as "mortals." Physical death is was proved they had indeed been "mortal."

I don't know what a sin nature might be. We have a mortal nature that makes us susceptible to sin. We can choose to sin. Otherwise repentance and obedience means nothing.

So you think that men who become immortal in the Kingdom of God are still mortal, because they are no longer susceptible to sin? I don't know why you are confused about our Sin Nature? The Jews call it an inclination towards Sin. Christians generally call it being born in Sin.

It is, in my own words, a fallen spiritual nature that we inherit from Adam and Eve. It is a fixed, corrupted mind-set oriented towards living independent of God. It is living in an autonomous way that displeases God, who wishes Man to live in relationship with Himself, in association with Himself, so that in relying upon His virtues they are able to do the same. If you don't understand the Sin Nature, what is your belief, that Man is perfect?

It surely benefited unbelievers. It makes the possibility of any human being to have a relationship with Christ freely choosing to do so. Which is why the Holy Spirit can call all men to repentance. He is calling unbelievers, not believers.

We're getting into a semantics issue. When I say believers benefit from Christ's Atonement, I'm not talking about their initial condition. Rather, I'm talking about their choice to believe in Christ, and thus benefit from his Atonement. Those who begin as unbelievers and persist in unbelief despite hearing the Gospel will not benefit from the Atonement of Christ!

Emphasize is not the best word,
The whole of the Gospel is about God calling all men. He wants fellowship with all men. That relationship in this world is solely possible or dependent of the whole work of Christ. That is, overcoming death and sin which man could not do. A lot, or even most of the
Gospels in exhorting those that believe, to hold fast, to remain faithful, to continue in faith, and seek forgiveness when we sin.

Again, I said that the Atonement of Christ was made *universally available.* When I say that Paul "emphasizes" the benefit believers receive from accepting Christ's Atonement, that is precisely what Paul is doing. He is choosing to focus on how the Atonement benefits those who choose to believe, regardless of whether they started out as unbelievers or not. The Atonement was made available for "sinners," and as such, for all men. This does not, obviously, mean that all men will benefit, because some choose to remain in their Sin.

But you have very strongly objected to the fact that Christ died for all men, to redeem, reconcile, justify all men and this world to Himself to defeat Satan who has the power over death.

You have a stubborn streak--I have repeatedly denied that. That is the conclusion you draw, and it does not sound in the least like what I've said or what I have stated I believe. Again, Christ died for all men. It's just that only believers will benefit. I strongly urge you to stop misrepresenting what I believe, even if it's what you think. It misleads others who may read what you're saying I believe.

Only one place in scripture is it stated that God gives up a person to his wickedness. Rom 1:24-32. Otherwise it is God continuing to call, to knock, to influence man to believe or to return to Him.

Well that's on the silly side. Not only is it said in many places in Scriptures but in this one place a whole category of people is being referred to, instead of just one person. As such, saying it in this place is like saying it in every place.

 

[Rightglory]

So you think human beings will stop being human beings when they achieve immortality? Again, the word "mortal" is not in the biblical text. So it depends on how we as individuals choose to use the word and in what context we use the word.

Quite the opposite, that was the whole purpose of Christ's redemptive work To restore mankind back to life. That mortal will take on immortality. I Cor 15:52-53.

I prefer to see Adam and Eve as "mortals" before they sinned, because they could choose to sin and die. They were given the opportunity to become immortal simply by choosing to live in the image of God and simultaneously choose to eat of the Tree of Life. That is immortality, for me, because then Man could no longer die.

Man had the capacity to become mortal. But Adam sinned without being mortal. His sin was condemned and he became mortal. We sin because we are mortal. It is our fallen nature that compels us to sin. This is explained in Rom 5:12-15. Otherwise you have God creating man is a state of death. Created, what He called good, to be something that can be dissolved into nothingness. Or you can state is as such, God created death. Yet scripture states that Satan has the power of death Heb 2:14-15.

It depends, as I said, on how you're using the word "mortal." I tend to think that if Adam and Eve could choose to sin and die, then there can be defined as "mortals." Physical death is was proved they had indeed been "mortal."

You can hold to that view, but then explain why God created everything in a state of death and subject to sin? That does not sound like the God I know.

So you think that men who become immortal in the Kingdom of God are still mortal, because they are no longer susceptible to sin? I don't know why you are confused about our Sin Nature? The Jews call it an inclination towards Sin. Christians generally call it being born in Sin.

Immortal is the opposite of mortal. You can use the term sin nature, but it is misleading. We have a mortal nature that causes us to sin. I believe the only Christians that use that term are Calvinists because it so well supports their "total depravity" view,.

It is, in my own words, a fallen spiritual nature that we inherit from Adam and Eve. It is a fixed, corrupted mind-set oriented towards living independent of God. It is living in an autonomous way that displeases God, who wishes Man to live in relationship with Himself, in association with Himself, so that in relying upon His virtues they are able to do the same. If you don't understand the Sin Nature, what is your belief, that Man is perfect?

We don't have a fallen spiritual nature. We have a fallen nature, a fallen physical nature and because of that nature we sin. Our spiritual relationship and how we conduct our christian lives is all on us. Adam had nothing to do with our spiritual relationship. Adam will answer in the end for his sin, and we will answer for ours.

We're getting into a semantics issue. When I say believers benefit from Christ's Atonement, I'm not talking about their initial condition. Rather, I'm talking about their choice to believe in Christ, and thus benefit from his Atonement. Those who begin as unbelievers and persist in unbelief despite hearing the Gospel will not benefit from the Atonement of Christ!

I agree respective of the blood sacrifice. It also applies to believers who fall away.

Again, I said that the Atonement of Christ was made *universally available.* When I say that Paul "emphasizes" the benefit believers receive from accepting Christ's Atonement, that is precisely what Paul is doing. He is choosing to focus on how the Atonement benefits those who choose to believe, regardless of whether they started out as unbelievers or not. The Atonement was made available for "sinners," and as such, for all men. This does not, obviously, mean that all men will benefit, because some choose to remain in their Sin.

That again is true of the second work of Christ' atoning work. The primary act is actually imposed on His Creation, not just man, which is defeating death by His resurrection. Paul spends a lot of words on the resurrection, in Romans, I II Cor, Col, Eph, It is central because without it, nothing else matters.

You have a stubborn streak--I have repeatedly denied that. That is the conclusion you draw, and it does not sound in the least like what I've said or what I have stated I believe. Again, Christ died for all men. It's just that only believers will benefit. I strongly urge you to stop misrepresenting what I believe, even if it's what you think. It misleads others who may read what you're saying I believe.

Actually to be more correct, mankind benefits, It was the purpose of Christ's atoning work. Man is delivered from the curse of death so that Man can have a relationship with Christ if they choose and attain eternal life.

 

[brightfame52]

Did Christ's Death succeed its purpose ? 2

That He might bring us to God ! 1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

This is ones subjective Reconciliation to God by way of Faith and Repentance ; or its our conversion to God. For this was a important purpose, intention for God giving His Son to die for those He died for, for if we be True Believers; That is by His Death or His once suffering for our sins, that this would result in our conversion to God !

Now if all for whom He suffered for their sins, are not as a result of that, converted to God, then His Death or Suffering for them failed its God given Purpose ! This bringing us to God or subjective reconciliation is effected because Christ through His Death did make Satisfaction for our sins, bearing the full penalty of the broken law for us as our Representative ! 11

 

[Rightglory]

Did Christ's Death succeed its purpose ? 2

That He might bring us to God ! 1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So far so good if you believe that all men were unjust. I Cor 15: 20-22. Rom 5:8-11.

This is ones subjective Reconciliation to God by way of Faith and Repentance ; or its our conversion to God. For this was a important purpose, intention for God giving His Son to die for those He died for, for if we be True Believers; That is by His Death or His once suffering for our sins, that this would result in our conversion to God !

God's work of redemption was objective. It is an accomplished work, accomplished by Him coming into this world to redeem this world.
To bring His creation back to Him. Heb 2:9, I John 2: 2, Rom 5:18-19. Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19. John 3:16,
There is no distinction regarding for whom Christ died. He did for the world, which includes all men. His objective work does not lead to a conversion.
The second part, his blood sacrifice permits man to respond to God's call to repent and believe. When one believes, he repents. and is forgiven of his sins. This repentance is a conversion. It's man changing from his old sinful ways to submit to the will of His Creator.

Now if all for whom He suffered for their sins, are not as a result of that, converted to God, then His Death or Suffering for them failed its God given Purpose ! This bringing us to God or subjective reconciliation is effected because Christ through His Death did make Satisfaction for our sins, bearing the full penalty of the broken law for us as our Representative ! 11

Christ's accomplished what He purposed to do.
One, to defeat death by His Humanity, death and resurrection. He removed the curse of death by which Satan held man captive.
By his blood sacrifice He provided for the ability for man to have a relationship with Him in this life but it could also be for eternal life, if man was faithful to the end. I Pet 1:3-5. II Pet 3:9, I Tim 1:3-4. I John, II Tim 1:10,

 

[brightfame52]

So far so good if you believe that all men were unjust. I Cor 15: 20-22. Rom 5:8-11.


God's work of redemption was objective. It is an accomplished work, accomplished by Him coming into this world to redeem this world.
To bring His creation back to Him. Heb 2:9, I John 2: 2, Rom 5:18-19. Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19. John 3:16,
There is no distinction regarding for whom Christ died. He did for the world, which includes all men. His objective work does not lead to a conversion.
The second part, his blood sacrifice permits man to respond to God's call to repent and believe. When one believes, he repents. and is forgiven of his sins. This repentance is a conversion. It's man changing from his old sinful ways to submit to the will of His Creator.

Christ's accomplished what He purposed to do.
One, to defeat death by His Humanity, death and resurrection. He removed the curse of death by which Satan held man captive.
By his blood sacrifice He provided for the ability for man to have a relationship with Him in this life but it could also be for eternal life, if man was faithful to the end. I Pet 1:3-5. II Pet 3:9, I Tim 1:3-4. I John, II Tim 1:10,

So basically what Peter teaches is that Christs Death is the foundation and efficient cause for both objective and subjective Salvation, it provides the life from the Spirit, which brings both faith and repentance. So anyone Christ died for, on the strength of His death, they will be spiritually converted to God,

 

[Rightglory]

So basically what Peter teaches is that Christs Death is the foundation and efficient cause for both objective and subjective Salvation, it provides the life from the Spirit, which brings both faith and repentance. So anyone Christ died for, on the strength of His death, they will be spiritually converted to God.

God's objective purpose for Christ was to redeem the world. His work accomplished two things. He overcame death, the condemnation of death as a result of Adam's sin.
secondly, his blood sacrifice would redeem the world from sin. God's purpose was it make it possible for mankind to overcome death and be able to have union with God in this life and for an eternity.
Spiritual conversion is accomplished by the Holy Spirit working in this world calling all men to repentance. Those that believe, repent is called a conversion. Christ did not arbitrarily convert anyone objectively. Whether a person converts is on his own choice, God does not chose who will believe. He desires that all men believe. Not all men believe and there is a consequence for each of man's choices, Eternal life or eternal damnation. Acts 24:15-16. Rom 10:9, Rom 12:12-13,

 

[brightfame52]

God's objective purpose for Christ was to redeem the world. His work accomplished two things. He overcame death, the condemnation of death as a result of Adam's sin.
secondly, his blood sacrifice would redeem the world from sin. God's purpose was it make it possible for mankind to overcome death and be able to have union with God in this life and for an eternity.
Spiritual conversion is accomplished by the Holy Spirit working in this world calling all men to repentance. Those that believe, repent is called a conversion. Christ did not arbitrarily convert anyone objectively. Whether a person converts is on his own choice, God does not chose who will believe. He desires that all men believe. Not all men believe and there is a consequence for each of man's choices, Eternal life or eternal damnation. Acts 24:15-16. Rom 10:9, Rom 12:12-13,

Once again, the death of Christ is the catalyst of bringing people [The Sheep] to God, it provided both objective and subjective spiritual results 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Therefore He has accomplished the will of God His Father !

 

[Rightglory]

Once again, the death of Christ is the catalyst of bringing people [The Sheep] to God, it provided both objective and subjective spiritual results 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Therefore He has accomplished the will of God His Father !

You got one thing correct. Christ accomplished the will of God.
But your text of I Pet 3:18 makes all men converted to Christ. Unless you believe that ONLY believers were unjust and all other man were righteous. Your theology shows a complete lack of understanding of who Christ is and what He accomplished.
How about addressing the many texts that I posted which you have yet to address. You live and die on one text (I Pet 3:18) and it explains nothing respective of your explanation.

 

[brightfame52]

You got one thing correct. Christ accomplished the will of God.
But your text of I Pet 3:18 makes all men converted to Christ. Unless you believe that ONLY believers were unjust and all other man were righteous. Your theology shows a complete lack of understanding of who Christ is and what He accomplished.
How about addressing the many texts that I posted which you have yet to address. You live and die on one text (I Pet 3:18) and it explains nothing respective of your explanation.

Its all correct, His death converts to God, it effects all spiritual blessings that is needed for that Great end.

 

[brightfame52]

rightglory

But your text of I Pet 3:18 makes all men converted to Christ.

Not so, only Gods elect. Notice who Peter addresses in the first chapter 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[Rightglory]

rightglory



Not so, only Gods elect. Notice who Peter addresses in the first chapter 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

You tend to cherry pick verse that seemingly fit your theory. However the context belies such an understanding. I Pet 1-5 is the context. Vs 3-4 is addressing the overcoming of death to all men through Christ's resurrection. Then it speaks about an inheritance that awaits believers. But who will get this inheritance.? It says those who are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH, not predestination. Your faith is your responsibility, not God's. After all He desires that all men believe. In fact, His call is so universal that no human being will ever be able to say they did not know about God, thus can be judged on their choice of accepting or rejecting that call, influence, knowledge of God.
By the way, who is doing the obedience? Why is obedience needed if that person was predestined to glory? Or is God being obedient for them?