(The Beast) & (The Two Witnesses) Will Be On This Earth Together For 3.5 Years (Then Cometh The End)

[Davy]

What do you mean by "in deception by the Antichrist" ?

What do you mean by "gathered to Satan's host"

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36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

taken to some place. Where they will die; their dead bodies fed upon by birds.

Lord Jesus' answer in Luke 17:37 is a 'metaphor'. Per the Greek, the word for "eagles" is used as a symbol for the idea of 'flight', i.e. flying away, and comes from Greek aer which means "air", the same Greek word used in 1 Thess.4:17 for being "caught up" by Jesus in the "air". It is pointing to a FAKE rapture by Satan.

 

[6 Stories]

I will explain the second woe which will take place over a month or two (not 3.5 years) near the end of the 7 years. The second woe's timing, I show on this chart I made of the seven seals.


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As a result of the trumpet plagues and vials of God wrath poured out during the great tribulation, oil - the life blood of the nations - will become harder to obtain, especially that which is in the middle east.

The beast-king (the Antichrist in his final stage) will be funneling all the middle east oil to the EU and its western nations allies.

Faced with the crisis of dwindling oil, the nations to the north, east, south of Jerusalem will have no choice but to attempt to remove the beast-king and his armies from Jerusalem and the middle east. The kings of the east, China and allies, will make up the 200 million army that will kill a third of mankind as the they march westward (as the second woe takes place).

You are right that Daniel 11:40-41 identifies the actions of the beast-king (the king of the west). My first chart below is based on Daniel 11:40-44. And my second chart below based on Daniel 11:45.

I labeled the first chart as a "prelude to Armageddon" because as the fighting is taking place, unexpectedly the sixth seal event takes place, and the sign of the Son of Man appears place in heaven - Jesus, sickle in hand (see my illustration below).

So all the fighting going on against the beast-king and his armies will stop because the bigger threat.

And that is when the false prophet, the beast king, and Satan (speaking through the statue image of the beast-king) in Revelation 16:13-14 convince the kings of the earth to take up their courage and gather their armies (which will all already be in the middle east) at Armageddon to prepare to make war against Jesus and His armies of heaven.

Jesus will destroys those armies and their kings in Revelation 19:19-21 at His return to this earth.

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This is way to much to respond to, so I'll just focus on the sign of the son of man.

The sign of Jonah was not Jonah. Jonah was dead for 3 days but came back to life. Therefore, it was Jesus who fulfilled the sign of Jonah by being dead for 3 days and then coming back to life. In the same way, the sign of Jesus will not be the return of Jesus as you have stated. The sign of Jesus will be a repetition of things that happened to Jesus. Jesus died, then he came back to life, then he was caught up to heaven in a cloud. If these things happen again, that will be the sign of Jesus. In fact, these things will happen to the 2 witnesses. Therefore, the death, resurrection, and ascension of the 2 witnesses will be the sign of Jesus.

Matthew 24:30 "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven"
Rev 6:16 "the wrath of the Lamb"
Rev 14:14 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle."

These are all pictures of the return of Jesus, not the sign of Jesus. These are just other ways of restating Rev 19:11-16.
"11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords."

 

[Davy]

I wish you had read the rest of my post instead of assuming I was talking about a pre-trib, 7 year early rapture. In the pre-trib theory, all Christians are raptured 7 years early.

They mostly just teach the idea of 'prior to the tribulation', even though the actual time of "great tribulation" is Biblically shown to be the latter 1260 days of the 7 years.

In the rapture of the 2 witnesses/144,000, only these are raptured (ascend in a cloud).

I agree that the verses in red above, Rev 11:13-15 "happen closely together."

Where we disagree is what earthquake we are talking about. The earthquake of Rev 11:13 is the earthquake which ends the 2nd woe, which is the same earthquake that ends the period of great tribulation. There is a separate earthquake that occurs IMO at the time of Jesus' return, at the end of the period of God's wrath, which is the earthquake of Zech 14.

There will be a 'fake' earthquake by Satan when he comes with his angels to earth, and then the great earthquake when Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives, per Zech.14. That's it. Only those two. Satan is coming first to play... God on earth, and he is going to mimic Christ's coming as much as possible.

Matt 24:29-30 "
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Immediately after the tribulation of those days The great tribulation has ended. The first earthquake has passed.

You're jumping ahead. The great earthquake of Rev.11:13 is the great earthquake of Zech.14 that will split the Mount of Olives in two when Jesus' feet touch down there. That will officially end the time of great tribulation, because Jesus' appearing will accompany the change at the twinkling of an eye to our spiritual bodies that Paul taught, the heavenly dimension right then revealed to all upon this earth. That is how even the wicked and unsaved will see Christ's coming in the clouds.

then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven The 2 witnesses died, rose again, were lifted up in a cloud into heaven, just like Jesus did.
they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven This is the Zech 14 earthquake which occurs at the end of the period of God's wrath. The period of God's wrath begins immediately after the tribulation of those days and it continues until Jesus is seen in heaven.

God's cup of wrath is very short, as it accompanies the change at the twinkling of an eye. Per the Old Testament prophets, the wicked and unbelieving will suffer a 'shock' at that change when that event happens at an instant. This is why Paul called it a "sudden destruction", as he was pulling that from the Old Testament prophets about that event. Blink the eye, and suddenly we will be in our heavenly body image with the heavenly dimension revealed to all on earth. That is how God's consuming fire will not harm us when it also burns man's works off this earth at that same moment, within the same hour. We will be in our spirit bodies which God's consuming fire will not harm us. That is one of the reasons for the hot fiery furnace example in the Book of Daniel Chapter 3.

A parallel passage to Matt 24:29-30 is provided in Rev 6:12-17.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days Rev 6.12-14a (First earthquake)
"12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;"

The 6th Seal has TWO PARTS. That first part about that earthquake and the stars of heaven fell unto earth like "untimely figs" is about Satan coming first as the false-Messiah playing God, to mimic Christ's coming. The "untimely figs" idea is about the literal winter fig in the middle east that grows in the winter but falls off in the spring. It is an early fig, not the summer fig for summer harvest that Jesus represented for His coming at summer harvest.

Verse 14 thus goes with Part Two about Jesus' 2nd coming later in that 6th Seal. That will not happen with Satan's coming, but with Jesus' coming.

they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven Rev 6:14b-17 (Second earthquake)
"and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

the face of him that sitteth on the throne This is actually God the Father and corresponds with Zech 14:4 " And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

Zech.14:4 is about Jesus' feet touching down on the Mount of Olives, not The Father's feet. And it shows Jesus will bring all the saints with Him there at that spot on earth.

The Rev.6:16 verse phrase, "the face of him that sitteth on the throne" is when the "last trump" change happens to all upon the earth, with the heavenly realm opened for all to see, and the wicked see The Father sitting upon His Throne in Heaven.

the Lamb is actually still up in the air at the time the throne of God has descended upon the mount of Olives as made clear in the next verse. Zech 14:5 "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Jesus is the one mentioned here as the Lord my God, coming back to earth with all the saints. As the people of Israel are fleeing, they will see Jesus coming in the air with all of his saints.

No, God's Throne is still in Heaven until after... Christ's future "thousand years" reign over all nations on earth. The Father only returns after the thousand years when the wicked, hell, and death are all destroyed in the "lake of fire" at the "second death".

IMO the time of the second earthquake is the time of the resurrection. This is quickly followed by the rapture of the living and the dead who belong to Jesus. They meet Jesus in the air and return to earth with him.

 

[6 Stories]

They mostly just teach the idea of 'prior to the tribulation', even though the actual time of "great tribulation" is Biblically shown to be the latter 1260 days of the 7 years.




There will be a 'fake' earthquake by Satan when he comes with his angels to earth, and then the great earthquake when Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives, per Zech.14. That's it. Only those two. Satan is coming first to play... God on earth, and he is going to mimic Christ's coming as much as possible.



You're jumping ahead. The great earthquake of Rev.11:13 is the great earthquake of Zech.14 that will split the Mount of Olives in two when Jesus' feet touch down there. That will officially end the time of great tribulation, because Jesus' appearing will accompany the change at the twinkling of an eye to our spiritual bodies that Paul taught, the heavenly dimension right then revealed to all upon this earth. That is how even the wicked and unsaved will see Christ's coming in the clouds.



God's cup of wrath is very short, as it accompanies the change at the twinkling of an eye. Per the Old Testament prophets, the wicked and unbelieving will suffer a 'shock' at that change when that event happens at an instant. This is why Paul called it a "sudden destruction", as he was pulling that from the Old Testament prophets about that event. Blink the eye, and suddenly we will be in our heavenly body image with the heavenly dimension revealed to all on earth. That is how God's consuming fire will not harm us when it also burns man's works off this earth at that same moment, within the same hour. We will be in our spirit bodies which God's consuming fire will not harm us. That is one of the reasons for the hot fiery furnace example in the Book of Daniel Chapter 3.




The 6th Seal has TWO PARTS. That first part about that earthquake and the stars of heaven fell unto earth like "untimely figs" is about Satan coming first as the false-Messiah playing God, to mimic Christ's coming. The "untimely figs" idea is about the literal winter fig in the middle east that grows in the winter but falls off in the spring. It is an early fig, not the summer fig for summer harvest that Jesus represented for His coming at summer harvest.

Verse 14 thus goes with Part Two about Jesus' 2nd coming later in that 6th Seal. That will not happen with Satan's coming, but with Jesus' coming.



Zech.14:4 is about Jesus' feet touching down on the Mount of Olives, not The Father's feet. And it shows Jesus will bring all the saints with Him there at that spot on earth.

The Rev.6:16 verse phrase, "the face of him that sitteth on the throne" is when the "last trump" change happens to all upon the earth, with the heavenly realm opened for all to see, and the wicked see The Father sitting upon His Throne in Heaven.



No, God's Throne is still in Heaven until after... Christ's future "thousand years" reign over all nations on earth. The Father only returns after the thousand years when the wicked, hell, and death are all destroyed in the "lake of fire" at the "second death".

I have tried to show you why my point of view is different than yours by using scripture which I see as supportive of that view. You have stated that my point of view does not fit into yours. I agree that my point of view is different from yours, but so far you haven't given me any evidence that my point of view is biblically incorrect. For instance, why is my timing of events biblically impossible?

 

[Douggg]

Lord Jesus' answer in Luke 17:37 is a 'metaphor'. Per the Greek, the word for "eagles" is used as a symbol for the idea of 'flight', i.e. flying away, and comes from Greek aer which means "air", the same Greek word used in 1 Thess.4:17 for being "caught up" by Jesus in the "air". It is pointing to a FAKE rapture by Satan.

Davy, the verse says...

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

...the eagles are going gather together to feast on the dead bodies of the one's taken in verse 36. In other words, the one's taken in verse 36, will be taken to a place and situation where they will die.

 

[Douggg]

Matthew 24:30 "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven"

Rev 6:16 "the wrath of the Lamb"
Rev 14:14 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle."

These are all pictures of the return of Jesus, not the sign of Jesus.

You quoted the wrong part of verse 24:30 that applies to the sign of the Son of man appearing heaven. Matthew 24:30a (I highlighted in red) is the right part.

Matthw 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Here is another chart made regarding that timing...

 

[Douggg]

This is way to much to respond to, so I'll just focus on the sign of the son of man.

I totally understand.

 

[6 Stories]

This is my chart for the timing of things in the book of Revelation. Notice how there are 6 separate stories. The spacing is disproportionate, but the period of great tribulation is followed by the period of God's wrath which is followed by chapter 20 of the Revelation. In other words, story 1 is followed by Revelation chapter 20 to the end of the book. This is true for each story. The repetition of events is evidence to me that this is the correct interpretation. Notice how the last plague is repeated in every story. This plague does not happen 6 separate times.

 

[6 Stories]

You quoted the wrong part of verse 24:30 that applies to the sign of the Son of man appearing heaven. Matthew 24:30a (I highlighted in red) is the right part.

Matthw 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Here is another chart made regarding that timing...

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You didn't state what the sign of the son of man is. The scriptures you quoted each contain the return of the son of man, but not the sign that will occur before the return. If anything can happen before his return, any point of view is valid. Can you tell me why the sign of the son of man is not the death, resurrection, and ascension of the 2 witnesses as I have claimed?

 

[Douggg]

You didn't state what the sign of the son of man is.

The first thing to note is Matthew 24:29 matches up with the heavens shaken in Revelation 6:12-17.

Notice in Revelation 6:15-16, how those persons are terrified by what they see. And in verse 16 it indicates what they see -

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

So what they are seeing, after the unverse parts in verse 13-14, is up to the third heaven where God's throne is and there will be Jesus. They will know what Jesus intends because He will have a sickle in his hand. The sign of the Son of man in heaven will be Jesus sickle in hand.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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Now why will Jesus be intent on carrying out his wrath ?

Go back up to the fifth seal in Revelation 6:9, and read those the following verses about how the martyred great tribulation saints plead for Jesus to avenge theirs death. So that is what Jesus is intent on doing in Revelation 6:17.