The Bible is Father-Centric not Christo-Centric

[Sister-n-Christ]

Deal with the ones I DID give you - THEN, I'll explain the rest . . .

 

[Matthias]

Then, EXPLAIN them.

I have for the past three years on this discussion forum. You’ll find some in the “Christians Only” forums but the majority of them are found in forums where “Other Faith” members are allowed to post.

I'm not going anywhere . . .

Good. I hope you’ll read my / his Jewish theology but, whether you do or not, I’ll continue to read your trinitarian theology. As I’ve said elsewhere, most of what I know I’ve learned from trinitarian scholarship and, in my opinion, Catholic scholarship tends to better than Protestant scholarship.

P.S.

Are you able to identify any Jewish monotheists in the Bible by name?

Are you able to identify any Nicene Christians in the Bible by name?

 

[David Lamb]

To make this claim to show your ignorance of ALL things Catholic . . .

Paul wasn’t a “Lone wolf” preacher who made up his own rules. He sought the counsel of the other Apostles.

I agree he wasn't a lone wolf.

Are you forgetting the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where he and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to discuss the matter of the Judaizers with them? They decided - as a GROUP as to the best way to deal with the matter.

- Paul preached the Real Presence in the Eucharist (1 Cor 10:16 , 1 Cor. 11:27-30).

Taken in context, 1 Corinthians 10:16 is not Paul teaching the real presence:

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.” (1Co 10:16-17 NKJV)

"We all partake of that one bread," not "Once the priest has consecrated it it becomes the actual body of Christ."

Similarly with 1 Corinthians 11:27-30. Here are the previous 4 verses:

“For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same manner He also took]the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.” (1Co 11:23-26 NKJV)

- He believed in Baptismal Regeneration (Acts 19:1-7, Acts 22:16)

Acts 19:1 says that these people were already disciples, or followers, of the Lord Jesus. They were baptized because they had new life in Christ, not to obtain new life in Christ.

- He believed in a sacramental Priesthood and instructed others to appoint (Acts 14:21-23 Titus 1:5).

What do Acts 14:21-23 and Titus 1:5 say about any kind of priesthood, sacramental or otherwise?

“And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God." So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.” (Ac 14:21-23 NKJV)

“For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you — ” (Tit 1:5 NKJV)

- He was against “denominations” (1 Cor 1:10).

1 and 2 Corinthians were written to one local church at Corinth. So verse 10 is not about denominations, but about dissensions within the local church.

- He practiced in self-denial and mortification of the flesh (1 Cor. 9:27, Col. 3:5, Gal. 5:24)

Yes he did, but nothing like the self-flagellation, an other things some Roman Catholics put themselves through.

Paul was a Catholic.

Of course he wasn't. He was a Christian.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree he wasn't a lone wolf.

Taken in context, 1 Corinthians 10:16 is not Paul teaching the real presence:

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.” (1Co 10:16-17 NKJV)

"We all partake of that one bread," not "Once the priest has consecrated it it becomes the actual body of Christ."

Similarly with 1 Corinthians 11:27-30. Here are the previous 4 verses:

“For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same manner He also took]the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.” (1Co 11:23-26 NKJV)

I beg to differ . . .

In 1 Cor. 11:27-30 – Paul talks about those who profane the sacrament – and the consequences of “eating and drinking JUDGEMENT on themselves.”

Why would he level such a harsh warning on something that is NOT sacred?
In John 6, when Jesus first mentioned the practice of consuming Him physically and sacramentally – He was very specific.

John 6:53-56
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”

It’s interesting that the usual Greek word used for human eating is “phagon”, however, this is NOT the word used in these passages. John uses the word, “trogon”, which means, to munch or to gnaw - like an animal. Jesus was again using hyperbole as he often did to drive his point across so that the crowd would understand that he was NOT speaking metaphorically. He meant what he said.

Just as the Paschal Lamb was to be eaten, it is also true for the Lamb of God.

Acts 19:1 says that these people were already disciples, or followers, of the Lord Jesus. They were baptized because they had new life in Christ, not to obtain new life in Christ.

They had NOT yet been Baptized into Christ – which is required of us (Mark 16:16, John 3:5).

Remember what happened to the disciples of Jesus who didn’t completely surrender to Him:
Matt. 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who DOES THE WILL of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

What do Acts 14:21-23 and Titus 1:5 say about any kind of priesthood, sacramental or otherwise?

In both passages, qualified Presbyters are appointed/ordained.

If you want more proof – in Jude, we see a condemnation of those who would usurp the priesthood of the Church and its Authority - and they are compared to the Rebellion of Korah (Num.16:8,10-11) who did the SAME thing:
“And Moses said to Korah…would you seek the priesthood also? Therefore it is against the LORD that you and all your company have gathered together.”

1 and 2 Corinthians were written to one local church at Corinth. So verse 10 is not about denominations, but about dissensions within the local church.

And that’s where denominational splintering starts. Check your history . . .

A couple of chapters later – he reiterates his concern:
1 Cor. 3:3-4
For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?

Yes he did, but nothing like the self-flagellation, an other things some Roman Catholics put themselves through.

Self-flagellation isn’t a practice of the Church. This is an individual practice by some – NOT a Church practice.

In that note - what do you make of Paul’s allusion to this practice?
1 Cot. 9:26-27
Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Of course he wasn't. He was a Christian.

Yes, a CATHOLIC Christian . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'll take that as a forfeit . . .

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

I'll take that as a forfeit . . .

Amuse yourself as you wish. Your pov has no scriptural support. As you admitted with your omission.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have for the past three years on this discussion forum. You’ll find some in the “Christians Only” forums but the majority of them are found in forums where “Other Faith” members are allowed to post.

Since you are hesitant to address my overwhelming Biblical proof – please explain just the following few examples:

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are GOD.
Rev. 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Rev. 22:13 – (Jesus speaking)
“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to GOD."

 

[Matthias]

I have for the past three years on this discussion forum. You’ll find some in the “Christians Only” forums but the majority of them are found in forums where “Other Faith” members are allowed to post.



Good. I hope you’ll read my / his Jewish theology but, whether you do or not, I’ll continue to read your trinitarian theology. As I’ve said elsewhere, most of what I know I’ve learned from trinitarian scholarship and, in my opinion, Catholic scholarship tends to better than Protestant scholarship.

P.S.

Are you able to identify any Jewish monotheists in the Bible by name?

Are you able to identify any Nicene Christians in the Bible by name?

He didn’t.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Amuse yourself as you wish. Your pov has no scriptural support. As you admitted with your omission.

I didn’t “omit” anything. I simply said: “Deal with the ones I DID give you - THEN, I'll explain the rest.”

In post #218 - YOU had responded to my post #213, where I gave a Bible Lesson on the fact that Paul was a Catholic. You have YET to challenge my Biblical evidence . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Where's the passages espousing belief in Limbo and Purgatory? Where are the scriptures referring to relics,intercession by the dead on behalf of the living?

RELICS:
In Acts 19:11-12, we see miracles being performed through Paul in Ephsus. We see healings and spirits being expelled using Paul’s aprons and handkerchiefs.

In 2 Kg 13:20-21, we read about a dean man being brought back to life by coming in contact with the bones of Ellisha.

INRECESSION:

The Bible clearly shows intercession from the saints in Heaven as they take our prayers to God on our behalf (Rev. 5:8). We see the Angels interceding for us in Rev. 8:4-5.

PURGATORY:
In Scripture, we read about Final Purification (Purgatory) after death.
In 1 Cor. 3:10‐15, this is how the process is described:
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

- This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ ad there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification

Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there IS purification after death for some.

Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

LIMBO:
Limbo isn’t a Catholic doctrine and never was.

Where are the verses that establish and defend graven imagery of the dead ?

Ummmm, where is the prohibition on making images of the dead?


YOUR turn . . .

 

[David in NJ]

The Christian apologetic should be reaffirming and defending his beliefs and faith to others by arguing for a doctrine(s) with a Father centric message(s) of hope and salvation rather than wrapped neatly in a Christocentric message(s). If not understood and believed that scripture reaffirms a Father-to-Son relationship first, then even the most simple and common Christocentric message eventually unravels and becomes chaotic and confused. This is my premise and personal belief.

As one source puts it...Albert Emanuel 2017...

"The Bible is Father-Centric, not Christocentric. The entire bible revolves around the central role of God the
Father in the plan of salvation. God the Father is the God of Israel, the God of Jesus, and the God of
Christians. It was God the Father who sent His Son, sacrificed His Son, and resurrected His Son. The Bible is primarily about God the Father and secondarily about Christ the Son. The biblical emphasis is upon God the Father. Jesus constantly and continuously emphasized God the Father. The Lord's prayer is entirely about God the Father. The kingdom and the power and the glory belong to God the Father. The kingdom of God is the kingdom of God the Father, not the kingdom of Christ. The time has come for the theological restoration of God the Father to His rightful place as the one ultimate and absolute God of Gods....."

The Bible is CENTRIC on ELOHIM = THREE = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT

It is impossible to separate ELOHIM

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

The Bible is CENTRIC on ELOHIM = THREE = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT

It is impossible to separate ELOHIM

Elohim is not unique to the Hebrew faith. It is proto-Semetic.

The Hebrew word "Elohim" (אֱלֹהִים) is of Proto-Semitic origin, derived from the Proto-Semitic root *ʔil- meaning "god" or "deity". It is the plural form of "Eloah" (אֱלֹהָ), which itself is an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun "El" (אֵל). "El" is a common word for "god" or "deity" in Northwest Semitic languages, including Canaanite and Ugaritic. .

Google Search

 

[David in NJ]

Elohim is not unique to the Hebrew faith. It is proto-Semetic.

The Hebrew word "Elohim" (אֱלֹהִים) is of Proto-Semitic origin, derived from the Proto-Semitic root *ʔil- meaning "god" or "deity". It is the plural form of "Eloah" (אֱלֹהָ), which itself is an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun "El" (אֵל). "El" is a common word for "god" or "deity" in Northwest Semitic languages, including Canaanite and Ugaritic. .

Google Search

Excellent - Thank You

Genesis begins with and mandates = Elohim/Plural = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3

i am in Montana and can only be brief = SHALOM

 

[MatthewG]

John 5:39-47​

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King James Version​

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(Speaking of the Old Testament) - Jesus speaks stating.​

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?