The Bible teaches repentance unto confession, not confession unto repentance

[CadyandZoe]

Well, you say to repent not of lust, but to only repent of sinning, which can only be by lust. So it cancels itself out and makes repenting of acts of lust impossible. It's sort of like trying to command someone not to burp, while keeping inflatable gas in the belly.

It's makes me think you don't know James 1, that all outward sinning is only by inward lusting.




I quoted Romans 7 already. We are commanded not to covet, and so we must repent of lust by which man covets.




Ok. Your religion does call for some repentance to sin less, not more. However, since it's a no big deal to be lusting and sinning itself, then so what? if it's more or less, right?

You don't seem to understand what you read from the Bible. I suspect that you are attempting to read the Bible through a doctrinal set of glasses.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Seriously? I've stated the verse showing Jesus command to repent ye and believe the gospel is the command to repent of dead works and have faith toward God. I've done so twice already, and you reject it for mental repentance only. What difference does a 3rd make?

I not only rejected it, I refuted it several times. But you have lost the point here. You claimed that Jesus commanded that we repent from lust, which he never did. Neither Jesus nor an Apostle commanded that we repent from Lust. Paul tells you that lust is located at an inaccessible part of our being -- Paul refers to this as his "body of death."

Read and mediate on this passage. Here Paul speaks of himself in his current condition as a child of God.

Romans 7:21-23

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.​

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I find then . . .
Paul speaks in the present tense about himself. He confesses that a principle of evil is present in him. He says that he "concurs with the law of God in his inner man", which is accessible to him. He can think whatever he wants to think. But, there is a different law in the members of his body, waging war against the law of his mind.

Don't you understand? If Paul could repent of his lust, he would do that. But he can't. He confesses that his mind is right about the issue, but his mind is at war with his members.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Any hope of repenting of all sinning and being transformed with all things now being of God, after the grave, is in vain. Being pure born of God and walking as Jesus walked is now to day or never. There is no repentance granted by God in nor after the grave.

Did I say repentance was after the grave? No. I don't think I did. Let's look at the passage again.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.​

​

I take note of TWO things that will happen at the last Trump 1) we will be raised imperishable, and 2) we will be changed. These are not one thing, these are two different and distinct things. Not only will we be raised and given an imperishable body; we will be changed.

In what way will we be changed?

1 Corinthians 15:54-57

But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

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We will better understand the passage above if we make ourselves aware of Paul's connection between sin and death.

Romans 5:12-14

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

Paul argues that all men are subject to death because all men have sinned. In other words, if you die, you were a sinner. This aligns with God's punishment for sin as stated in Genesis: "you shall surely die." Those who sin will experience death. In Corinthians, Paul compares "death" to a scorpion and "sin" to its stinger. While a single sting may not be lethal, repeated stings can lead to anaphylaxis and death. Therefore, since sin is the cause of death's triumph, eliminating sin will bring an end to death. In other words, at the last trumpet, God will transform us so that sin is no longer a part of our existence, and we will have achieved victory over death.

Your view that sin can be eliminated in this lifetime contradicts Paul's view.

Reactions to these subsequent stings are sometimes severe enough to cause a life-threatening condition called anaphylaxis.

Sin is so closely associated with

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well, you say to repent not of lust, but to only repent of sinning, which can only be by lust. So it cancels itself out and makes repenting of acts of lust impossible. It's sort of like trying to command someone not to burp, while keeping inflatable gas in the belly.

It's makes me think you don't know James 1, that all outward sinning is only by inward lusting.

James may associate sin with lust, but he does not necessarily suggest that lust leads to sin in every case. The path from lust to death depends on specific conditions that, when met, can lead to death. James qualifies the process by stating that "when lust has conceived," implying that lust may not always "conceive" and lead to sin. Furthermore, even if lust does give birth to sin, it must be "accomplished" before it can bring forth death.

I quoted Romans 7 already. We are commanded not to covet, and so we must repent of lust by which man covets.

That is not what Paul says in Romans 7. He observes that before the law "came" he was alive but after that, he was "dead." He explains what he means. Basically Paul was meditating on the 10th commandment, which is much different than the rest of the commandments in the following fundamental way.

The Seventh Commandment prohibits adultery, but the Tenth Commandment goes further by stating that one must not even have the desire to commit adultery. The same applies to murder and theft; one must not even have the desire to commit these acts. Paul had an epiphany when he realized the profoundness of the 10th commandment. Despite dedicating his life to living according to the Law and being blameless in all that he did, he found himself coveting all the time, breaking the 10th commandment. Even a righteous and blameless man like Paul admitted that he could not keep the 10th commandment.

 

[Ghada]

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Nowhere in the Bible does God ever speak of repentance 'of the mind', much less of the 'mind alone'.

All Bible repentance is of works and deeds. It doesn't matter to God what we 'think' about sin in our minds, but only whether we are doing it or not.

The most childish and vacuous teaching by Christian sinners, is the absurd notion of the 'mind repenting', while the works remain the same. Just because we now know that God is good and sin is bad, doesn't make us any different from other sinners in God's judgment of our works.

It actually makes us more guilty than the world, because we now do know God is good and sin is bad.

And resorting to man's definitions of words, such as repentance is 'a change of mind', is compounding the error. Just because God uses man's words, such as 'repent', doesn't mean God defines them the same as man. God uses our words, but He defines them for Himself by how He uses them. God does not conform to man's use of words, but it is we that must conform to His uses of words in the Bible.

The only place where repentance means 'a change of mind', is in the minds of foolish men, that also think faith in the mind alone is worth anything to God. They simply do not agree with how good defines repentance, whereby we may come to Him.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

We repent of our deeds, not our attitude about sin, because it's our deeds that will be judged to be righteous or unrighteous with God.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

God doesn't care what our 'mental attitude' is about sinning against Him. He just commands us to stop it already. And that's for our own good, because if we haven't already stopped it at the end, then we are the ones judged and condemned for it in the resurrection of the dead and His righteous judgement.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[Ghada]

"Forgiven!"

Not if not repented.

 

[Ghada]

If we deny our inward sin, the light is not in us.

This is how convoluted and exact backwards ministering sin to Christians can get.

The light is only in us if we have sin and say so.

But if we don't have sin in Christ Jesus and know it, then we are really in the dark.

Talk about a gospel of false light.

 

[Lizbeth]

This is how convoluted and exact backwards ministering sin to Christians can get.

The light is only in us if we have sin and say so.

But if we don't have sin in Christ Jesus and know it, then we are really in the dark.

Talk about a gospel of false light.

"Lord have mercy on me, a sinner." And Paul confessed that in him, that is in his flesh, dwelt no good thing. The flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit lusteth against the flesh. The issue has to do with which one we are walking after and sowing to, the flesh or the spirit.

 

[Ghada]

Let's not assume what James said. He doesn't command faith.

He commands having the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He commands having His faith without sinning.

He commands having His faith with good works.

He commands repenting of having dead faith and do the works of God.

Let's not approach a passage of scripture looking to have our questions asked;

No unbeliever could have said it better.

So, you don't read the Bible to have your mind changed according to the word and will of God.

You read the Bible to have your own word and will confirmed.

You do so by changing the Bible when needed.

Rather, we approach the scriptures to see what issues the apostles were addressing. Did James know about our debates: faith vs. works, and law vs. grace? Did he write in order to resolve OUR issues? No.

Of course not. Your mind about it all is already made up on your own.

The only reason there are any debates about God's words, is when people don't believe them as written.

God says any faith alone without works is dead and cannot save nor justify any man with Him.

Then certain Christians say their faith alone saves and justifies them.

There is no debate here even between me and you, but between you and the Bible.

The impassable gulf between us is I repeat the Bible, and you repeat yourself.

The context of his letter comes from the immediate needs of his readers. What were their problems and concerns?

James 2:14-17

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.​

​

A brother or sister without food and clothing.
Here, we understand the subject matter of concern. James didn't set out to answer our debate concerning faith vs. works. His concern is favoritism: treating the rich with respect and honor, ignoring the poor believers that live among us. The passage I highlighted above deals with how believers should treat the less fortunate among them, specifically "a brother or sister."

The idea that wealth was an indication of God's favor and that lack of resources was an indication of God's disfavor, was a false narrative handed to believers at that time. The gospel of Jesus Christ stands in direct opposition to that narrative. Believers in Jesus Christ have communion with one another due to the fact that they all have agreed that we all stand condemned by the Law but we have all been forgiven and granted an inheritance in eternal life because of what Christ did for us on the cross.

For this reason, all believers share fundamental and eternal elements in common with each other. In a sense, we also share a common experience, having come to faith during a time of questioning and resolve. Each of these elements of our common destiny and experience, naturally lead to a significant camaraderie. The fellowship of believers is united by profound trust and friendship.

James isn't saying that one must add good works to his or her faith. No. James is saying that since those of faith share a profound trust and friendship, then why are the poor among you going without food and clothing? If the group is not willing to help fellow believers when they are in need, then how can the group claim to be counted among those who share, worldview, destiny, and experience in common?

You can bury the simple truth in pretty speeches and long winded scholarship all you wish.

All of James is a rebuke against people of faith still sinning and not doing the will of God. It's against your gospel of believing to be saved without first repenting of sinning.

James doesn't speak of adding good works to our faith specifically, but of not having them with a dead faith.

2 Peter 1 speaks of adding to our faith the good works of virtue, godliness, charity...to ensure we do not fall from the faith into sinning again.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge...

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall...

Once again, there is no debate here between faith and works, nor about adding works to our faith. The only debate is a lost one made by Christians that preach their own mind and will against the Bible.

The Bible says add to our faith and do these things. And you say don't do that.

The Bible says we can ensure we never sin and fall from the faith of God, and you say don't do that.

The Bible says to repent of lusting and sinning, and you say repent not of lust and sin.

Your gospel ministers righteousness and holiness in all manner of life to the people of faith. And you minister to the people lust and sin for life.

Believe me. There is no debate between us, but only between you and the Bible.

Let's not reduce the truth down to a slogan and argue from our slogans. Let's learn from the apostles and make contact with their concerns.

There is no better expression of scholastic unbelief in the simple words of the Bible.

Repeating the words as written is just 'sloganizing'. That's much too simple. You say we need more endless 'context' to say something else.

After paragraphs of meaningless scholar-speak, you conclude with your doctrine of having faith alone, and forbidding adding any works of virtue and godliness to it.

Why would someone reading the Bible do that? Why change the Bible to preach the opposite? Why not just preach your religion of lust and sinning by faith for life, and leave the Bible out of it? Then I wouldn't bother quoting the Bible to you. I'd just take note of another gospel and religion of sinful man and move on. It would be nothing but a curiosity to me, like Islam or Buddhism or Krishnaism or New Ageism.

But, so long as you continue to come to me to change the Bible to fit your own mind, faith, and will, because you don't dare question your doctrine. I therefore will continue repeating the Bible against your doctrine, mind, and faith alone.

 

[Scott Downey]

Repenting is not just for unbelieving unsaved people, but also for saved people who need a spiritual 'rebooting'.
The reason for that is the flesh. We inhabit sinful bodies in a physical world, and our minds need to be conformed to the standards God setup for us in Christ, not to be conformed to the world.
Repent and believe, Christ told his people the same after they had believed but had somewhat gone cold.

Revelation 3
“And to the [a]angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before [b]God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you

Revelation 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

ALL these verses were written to Christian believers, they were told to repent. And with the follow-on idea of believing the gospel, because they had fallen away from believing in the whole counsel of God. They were following Christ only in part.

1. 2 Corinthians 7:9
   Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 2 Corinthians 7:10
   For godly sorrow produces repentance leadingto salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. 2 Corinthians 12:21
   lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.

 

[Scott Downey]

John 20, the same thing with Thomas, even though the actual 'repent ' word is not used, it is implied, in Christ saying
"Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, [f]“Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[Ghada]

The passages you cite say nothing about repentance and therefore aren't the basis of your argument.

Of course not. The examples you demanded were for works of faith. I can't deal with incoherence. I'll not be supplying what you demand anymore.

When you come to me preaching your stuff that the Bible doesn't agree with, then I'll just repeat the Bible. That's all.

You preach repentance but you don't act repentant. Why is that?

Bible repentance is from lust and sinning. It's not repenting from the Bible to agree with you.

In my opinion, you don't instruct anyone. All you seem to have are slogans and surface knowledge. Jesus teaches his followers to "do business" with God

Do business with God? You mean bargain with Him and His word, to change here and there to do business with you.

and this is not possible if all we do is fill our heads with slogans and surface knowledge.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Anyone can gather together a group of verses that seem to be saying similar things.

They obviously are. That's what your gripe is, when it counters your own faith and gospel.

But that isn't walking in faith. The walk of faith is living the faith, gaining wisdom and, apprehending the gospel at a deeper level.

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak;

The art of Lucifer to sound really deep. It becomes so deep that the 'surface' words of the Bible are left far behind.

Each of us should pray this prayer for one another.

There is a sinning unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Knowledge isn't a bad thing if it serves God's wish to bless our hearts with enlightenment.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

We all know what is good and bad for us. We all know that sin has consequences. However, not everyone is convinced that the consequences of sin outweigh the pleasures of sin or the sense of fulfillment they seem to provide.

That's the result of ministering continued sinning in life, without any hope of repenting of lusting and sinning altogether.

It's also only preaching the 'consequences' of sin upon the body and life, without preaching the first consequence of death to God.

It isn't our job to wake people up.

You wake believers to not repenting of lust, but continue sinning.

The Bible does the opposite.

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

My job is to explicate the scriptures to the best of my ability

Explicate? You really do believe a show of words works to impress people.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

I never asked. I challenged your incorrect thinking.

If you resent response, then don't challenge.

Just explicate yourself with people that agree with you, so you won't get your explicatives all in a huff.

 

[Ghada]

Welcome to my ignore list. I gave you a chance. Now I hand you over!

Others can prove your lies and defend against you false gospel I am done.

How many times am I on your ignore list so far?

Sinners. You just can't trust them to keep their word.

 

[Ghada]

"Lord have mercy on me, a sinner."

Sure thing.. Repent of sinning and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And stop ministering a gospel of unrepented sinning.

And Paul confessed that in him, that is in his flesh, dwelt no good thing.

Also stop ministering no good to the spirit nor the body.

Paul was not evil, nor any man's body. Certainly not while penning God's words.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit lusteth against the flesh. The issue has to do with which one we are walking after and sowing to, the flesh or the spirit.

True. Stop ministering sinning with the flesh and blaming it on the flesh.

Join the ministry of Christ from the Bible and preach repenting of sinning with the flesh and walking only after the Spirit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Nowhere in the Bible does God ever speak of repentance 'of the mind', much less of the 'mind alone'.

Are you unclear on the definition of repentance? I thought at least two of us reminded you that "to repent" is to "change the mind." You seem to have mistakenly misconstrued the term "repent" as "resolve." In the Bible, repentance is changing one's mind, not resolving to do good. The two are closely related but not exactly.

For example, when Jesus began his ministry he called upon his kinsmen to "repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." Was he saying, "resolve to do good, for the kingdom of God is at hand?" No. I don't think so. He spoke into a society that, in their own minds, was already doing the good. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus challenged the crowds "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." In the minds of the crowds, the scribes and the Pharisees were among the most righteous men among them. How can a person become better or more good than a Pharisee?

Jesus is calling upon his people to "change your mind" and come to a true knowledge concerning what is actually right and wrong. The people looked up to the scribes and Pharisees and admired them for how dedicated to God they appeared to be, at least on the surface. His people needed to know that the Pharisaical version of "righteousness" was deficient. His people needed to learn a different way and gain additional knowledge about righteousness.

Resolve comes after being retrained and accepting a new perspective. One must come to a knowledge of the truth (repent) before resolving to live according to the truth.

All Bible repentance is of works and deeds. It doesn't matter to God what we 'think' about sin in our minds, but only whether we are doing it or not.

I'd say the opposite is true. God is more concerned that I learn wisdom than I keep the rules.

The most childish and vacuous teaching by Christian sinners, is the absurd notion of the 'mind repenting', while the works remain the same. Just because we now know that God is good and sin is bad, doesn't make us any different from other sinners in God's judgment of our works.

It doesn't necessarily follow that all those who accept the true definition of "repentance" are also advocating for licentiousness.

And resorting to man's definitions of words . . .

All words are man's words. Try to see the difference between "words" and "ideas" We acknowledge that God's ideas are true and worthy of our attention. We also acknowledge that God intended to convey his ideas in the form of human language. God's ideas are being conveyed to us through the medium of human language. And as Paul asserts, the human words that convey God's ideas are "inspired" (God-breathed), which means that the human words are adequate for us to apprehend the meaning God intended.

Our conversation concerning the meaning of the term "repentance" is concerned with the meaning that God intended to convey through human apostles and prophets. Our access to God's ideas are mediated through human agents speaking to use using human language. All words are defined by man. The question is, does our interpretation of the words correspond to the meaning that the prophet or apostle meant to convey?

Can we find examples where the term "repent" conveys the idea of "resolve to do good" in the New Testament? A cursory review of the term "repent" will reveal that repentance is before action.

Consider this passage for instance.

2 Chronicles 6:37

if they take thought in the land where they are taken captive, and repent and make supplication to You in the land of their captivity, saying, ‘We have sinned, we have committed iniquity and have acted wickedly’;​

In this example Israel is encouraged to repent and make supplication. Repentance is a mental activity; making supplication is a physical activity. Action in a new direction comes after a change of mind. Previously, Israel didn't accept or acknowledge sinfulness iniquity, and acting wickedly. After changing their mind, they were willing to acknowledge that they have committed iniquity etc. Only after Israel changes their mind concerning their iniquity will they make supplication to God.

Do you understand what I am saying? You seem to have identified a problem -- those who go by the name Christian continuing in sin. That is a problem. But I believe that you have mistakenly misconstrued the cause of the problem. It isn't true that Christians are rationalizing sin in the manner you suggest. Rather, the truth is, those who rationalize sin are not in fact, Christians at all.

 

[Ghada]

Repenting is not just for unbelieving unsaved people, but also for saved people who need a spiritual 'rebooting'.

Whosoever is born of God is not committing sin; for his seed is remaining in him: and he cannot be sinning, because he is born of God.

No saved son born of God is sinning. Jesus saves from sinning, not while sinning.

All sinning men everywhere need to repent of their sinning, whether Christians, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheist...

Your 'rebooting' in the Bible is called repenting of sinning, be converted by God with a pure heart, and walk with Jesus.

Your Christian religion of unrepented sinners only reboots to start over and try to sin less today than yesterday.

The reason for that is the flesh. We inhabit sinful bodies in a physical world,

Stop accusing Jesus Christ of making sinners with sinful bodies from the womb.

And especially stop blaming your innocent body for what you do with it.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

and our minds need to be conformed to the standards God setup for us in Christ,

Not the mind, but the life. Mind change without living the life, is just knowing your wrong.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

God's repentance is always of works and deeds, not just ideas.

Christians sinning are now more condemned than the world, not less.

not to be conformed to the world.

In living, not just thinking.

Christ told his people the same after they had believed but had somewhat gone cold.

They were unrepented Christian sinners telling themselves they were not condemned by God.

Jesus spews that stuff out like vomit.

Jesus can do more for cold-hearted sinners that don't blame it on their bodies, nor tell themselves they're 'saved'.

ALL these verses were written to Christian believers, they were told to repent.

Exactly. Repent and be converted to the pure religion of Jesus Christ, and leave sinful Christianity behind.

And with the follow-on idea of believing the gospel, because they had fallen away from believing in the whole counsel of God. They were following Christ only in part.

There is no such thing as following Christ in part, loving God with part of the heart, repenting of sinning in part.

They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

Paul isn't speaking of born sons of God in Romans 7, much less of himself when penning God's words to the Romans.

Your gospel of Christian religion repenting in part, is not the command of God to repent of all sinning and walk always with His Son.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

If this does not apply to us, then neither the Father nor the Son are with us, but have left us alone to our part-time religion of partial repentance only.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is how convoluted and exact backwards ministering sin to Christians can get.

The light is only in us if we have sin and say so.

But if we don't have sin in Christ Jesus and know it, then we are really in the dark.

Talk about a gospel of false light.

You don't seem to have an answer. I get that. John gives you explicit instruction that refutes your view and all you can come up with is repeating yourself. I see what you did there.

You seem to have a mistaken idea about what it means for a Christian to be "in Christ," a term Paul used to indicate Jesus' followers. In his epistle to the Ephesians, he uses the term "in Christ" to indicate those whom God has blessed with "spiritual" blessings located in the "heavenlies", an adjective indicating a quality of existence typical in heaven -- "where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal."

Among the spiritual blessings God has granted to those "in Christ" are holiness, blamelessness, wisdom, insight, knowledge of his will, and the "adoption as sons." To this end, God has also blessed us with the Holy Spirit as an earnest of our inheritance. In short, to be "in Christ" has nothing to do with our location, i.e. a place where there is no sin. To be "in Christ" is to be a follower of Christ whom God has granted many spiritual blessings.

In his letter to the Colossians, he turns this concept around.

Colossians 1:26-28
. . . that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ.

According to Paul, the genuine Christian has "Christ in you", which is the hope of glory. What is "glory" if not sinlessness and moral goodness? The concept of "glorification" indicates a man or a woman who is like Christ in both character, goodness, righteousness and love. Christians are not yet glorified, they understand that glorification is our inheritance to be seen at the Second Coming of Christ. We hope in the glory now; we will have glory then. The earnest of our inheritance, as Paul stated in his letter to the Ephesians, is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Here the expression "Christ in You" is the same concept.

In his letter to the Romans he says it this way.

Romans 8:12-17

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.​

Notice what Paul says about being led by the Spirit. Those being let by the Spirit are "sons of God" in the sense that as "sons" we stand to gain an inheritance. Only "sons" are granted an inheritance, not the household servants. (Both males and females are "sons" in this context.) The servants of the house received a spirit of slavery but we have received a spirit of "adoption as sons" by which we cry out "Abba Father."

Abba Father
Some people mistakenly assume that Paul is using a term of endearment here as if a Christian is supposed to think of God as "daddy." But this is not what Paul has in mind. Instead, Paul's use of the phrase "Abba Father" is reminiscent of Jesus' suffering in the garden where he said, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will.” (Mark 14:36) The spirit of adoption that we receive is our resolve to do God's will. Just as Jesus said, "not what I will, but what you will" that same sentiment is found in all those who are genuine followers of Jesus Christ.

Thus, if we have the same attitude that Jesus had concerning God's will, then we will not want to sin. We will not practice sin. We will submit our members to the service of righteousness.

The locus of our disagreement is centered on the question of failure. How do I interpret a moral failure. Does a single moral failure indicate a lack of faith? Does God disown me? Does a single sin disqualify me from the inheritance? No. As John says, if we sin, he is faithful to forgive us of sin and lead us into all righteousness. We don't evaluate our status by our failure or failures. We trust and believe that all things are possible for God. If he is saving me, he can do whatever it takes to save me.

 

[Lizbeth]

Nowhere in the Bible does God ever speak of repentance 'of the mind', much less of the 'mind alone'.

"Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind."

Rom 7:20-25

Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

The above to me describes the flesh lusting against the spirit and the spirit lusting against the flesh. Haven't had time to follow every detail but this discussion in some ways seems to me like a chicken and egg kind of argument, kind of like two sides of a coin. No we certainly should not sin, and that should be our serious and sincere aim, but on the other hand "IF we sin we have an Advocate". Not all sin is willful....."if I do that which I do not want to do it is no longer I who sin but sin living in me." ie, that seems to be saying sin is not being imputed to us unless we sin willfully.

Iniquity is part of our very nature as human beings but we are called to put it off like a garment, ie, not to walk in it, but to put on and walk in the new man. That seems to be something that we grow in and learn how, and increase in, with the Lord working on us all the while, through trials and tribs and chastisements, that we may partake of His holiness. We are transformed instantly in the inner man when we come to faith in Christ, but outwardly the reality is that this takes time to grow in and take ground in, and there is that different members of the body receive different measures of grace and faith in the beginning as well (some more, some less). It's important that we be growing...we need to be running the race so as to win it......as it is an upward call....we need to be somewhere on that narrow path and moving forward, ie, growing in an upward direction, not losing ground.

 

[Scott Downey]

Whosoever is born of God is not committing sin; for his seed is remaining in him: and he cannot be sinning, because he is born of God.

No saved son born of God is sinning. Jesus saves from sinning, not while sinning.

All sinning men everywhere need to repent of their sinning, whether Christians, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheist...

Your 'rebooting' in the Bible is called repenting of sinning, be converted by God with a pure heart, and walk with Jesus.

Your Christian religion of unrepented sinners only reboots to start over and try to sin less today than yesterday.


Stop accusing Jesus Christ of making sinners with sinful bodies from the womb.

And especially stop blaming your innocent body for what you do with it.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.



Not the mind, but the life. Mind change without living the life, is just knowing your wrong.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

God's repentance is always of works and deeds, not just ideas.

Christians sinning are now more condemned than the world, not less.


In living, not just thinking.



They were unrepented Christian sinners telling themselves they were not condemned by God.

Jesus spews that stuff out like vomit.

Jesus can do more for cold-hearted sinners that don't blame it on their bodies, nor tell themselves they're 'saved'.


Exactly. Repent and be converted to the pure religion of Jesus Christ, and leave sinful Christianity behind.

There is no such thing as following Christ in part, loving God with part of the heart, repenting of sinning in part.

They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

Paul isn't speaking of born sons of God in Romans 7, much less of himself when penning God's words to the Romans.

Your gospel of Christian religion repenting in part, is not the command of God to repent of all sinning and walk always with His Son.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

If this does not apply to us, then neither the Father nor the Son are with us, but have left us alone to our part-time religion of partial repentance only.

Romans 7 certainly was Paul speaking of himself while in the faith.
You misunderstand entirely about who are the children of God.
Not a single child of God or a lost sheep will remain lost and unsaved.
================================================
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” The 'Lost' here is not all the people of the world, but only the children of God spread over the world that God foreknows as his own children. John 11 is speaking prophetically about the future as if it were already reality.
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51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
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Christ was talking about Zacchaeus as a true son of Abraham as he believed in Christ and was one of the lost sheep.
There are no lost forever sheep of Christ, they are all HIS sheep whom God gave to Christ before time began, and everyone one of them in their time will believe in Christ and be saved, because God through Christ goes and gets them bringing them back to Himself.
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Now if Christ had not come, then the lost sheep would remain lost, but Christ fulfills the will of God by HIS work, that of all God gives to Christ, none of them will be lost.
God gives to Christ His believers.
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1 Peter 2
.9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

and

24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose [g]stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and [h]Overseer of your souls.

Hebrews 2, here this refers only to those who will believe in Christ, only they are His lost sheep, this is not written to all people, not for those of the world. 'HIS Brethren', that phrase proves that this is not speaking of the world of all mankind. His brethren are only those God is bringing to glory

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Christ only aids to salvation the seed of Abraham, another proof of this is in Romans 9

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

[Ghada]

Are you unclear on the definition of repentance? I thought at least two of us reminded you that "to repent" is to "change the mind."

I won't repent to be like you. Neither in mind nor deed.

You seem to have mistakenly misconstrued the term "repent" as "resolve."

No, you mistake repenting with resolve to do, and try to apply it to me. As I said, I will never repent to be like you, neither in doctrine nor in deed.

Bible repent is to do. Resolutions are for childish hearers only, and not doers of the word.

In the Bible, repentance is changing one's mind, not resolving to do good. The two are closely related but not exactly.

A perfect example of the sinners' gospel of repent in mind only by faith alone.

Not even 'resolve' not to sin, much less not do it.

How can a person become better or more good than a Pharisee?

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

By repenting of lusting within first, while doing righteousness without.

You preach a Pharisee gospel of repent not of lust. But it's only half-baked.

Your righteousness isn't even as righteous as the Pharisee Pentecostals, who at least keep the law of Christ outwardly.

Jesus is calling upon his people to "change your mind" and come to a true knowledge concerning what is actually right and wrong.

Your stuff is gnostic. Mental gymnastics. Knowledge only religion.

Only knowing good and evil, while still doing evil, is the serpent's religion for man and woman.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is to learn both by doing both.

His people needed to learn a different way and gain additional knowledge about righteousness.

Gnostic believers need to learn less about righteousness and just do it already.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Of course repenting of lusting and sinning must come first.

Resolve comes after being retrained and accepting a new perspective.

Seriously? How much training and perspectivism and 'deep' knowledge does it take to repent of riotous living? Fornication? Drunkenness? Profane lying? Lusting for a neighbor and coveting their goods?

Give me a break already.

One must come to a knowledge of the truth (repent) before resolving to live according to the truth.

Only them that repent of sinning can come to Jesus and know the truth of living His righteous and holy way.

I'd say the opposite is true. God is more concerned that I learn wisdom than I keep the rules.

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

It doesn't necessarily follow that all those who accept the true definition of "repentance" are also advocating for licentiousness.

It certainly is in your case. You command to repent not of lust, but only act on it less often.

All words are man's words. Try to see the difference between "words" and "ideas" We acknowledge that God's ideas are true and worthy of our attention.

God doesn't care about your 'attention' to His words, but obedience. By everything I have seen from you, all the Bible is to you, is just 'worthy' of your attention.

A scholar's pride is the worst, because it's usually based upon self-absorbed scholarship of one's own making and mind.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

It's doubly-worse with Bible 'scholars'. Like Athenian philosophers, they are always just looking for a new way to change the Bible into conforming with their own mind, and their own faith to be saved and justified while sinning with the world.

And thricely-worse is when they then say the world is condemned, but not themselves while doing the same thing.

Our conversation concerning the meaning of the term "repentance"

There is no discussion nor debate here. I reject your mental definition and you reject my repeating the Bible.

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

Repent therefore of this thy wickedness,

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

There is no repenting at all with God, without turning from sinful deeds to do good.

Just turning things over in the mind, is nothing but playing a mind game with God.

is concerned with the meaning that God intended to convey through human apostles and prophets.

God doesn't 'intend to convey' anything. He says exactly what He means, and means it to be done exactly as He says.

Our access to God's ideas are mediated through human agents speaking to use using human language. All words are defined by man.

All words defined by man for their own use, is to do their own will.

All words defined by God's use in the Bible, is for His will to be done.

Man defines his words man's way, but God defines man's words His way in the Bible. They may be man's words, but it's God's use of them that matters.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

The question is, does our interpretation of the words correspond to the meaning that the prophet or apostle meant to convey?

The prophets and apostles of God do not 'mean to convey'. They command.

'Mean to convey' is philosophy on how to adjust words to fit our own mind and way.

Can we find examples where the term "repent" conveys the idea of "resolve to do good" in the New Testament?

Of course not. That's your conveyor belt doctrine, not the Bible.

Bible repenting is to cease the evil and do the good.

You seem to have identified a problem -- those who go by the name Christian continuing in sin. That is a problem.

That's the problem that is from your ministry of sin.

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

It isn't true that Christians are rationalizing sin in the manner you suggest.

No, you are ministering it, by not repenting of it, and declaring no one else can repent of lust either.

Rather, the truth is, those who rationalize sin

Are those who minister it as being in the flesh from the womb, cannot cease from sinning, and will at least sin from time to time unto death.

Oh, and repent not of lust.

are not in fact, Christians at all.

If you say so. I have no problem calling Christians who say they are sinners, Christian sinners.

There's many Christian sinners with sinful Christianity, and a few Christian saints with pure religion of Jesus Christ.

I don't even have a problem with Christians ministering sin to their fellow sinners, in their churches. But when you bring it to me, I rebuke it from the Bible every time.