The Bible teaches repentance unto confession, not confession unto repentance

[Ghada]

You repented with a whole heart and didn't believe? lol

Since Bible believing is knowing by obedience, which is the message in repent and believe, you do not know the faith of Jesus, that is only by obedience.

And after asking for a witness and being given a testimony of the truth of repent and believe, then you mock it and so remain an unrepentant disobedient child with your own faith alone, and do not know the faith of Jesus from the heart.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

 

[Ghada]

Whom are you referring to?

You of course. Unless I am mistaken. Are you saying that you have no sin to repent of?

If not, then you are one of the believers that is not repenting. And you teach believing first and then repent later.

 

[Jack]

Since Bible believing is knowing by obedience, which is the message in repent and believe, you do not know the faith of Jesus, that is only by obedience.

And after asking for a witness and being given a testimony of the truth of repent and believe, then you mock it and so remain an unrepentant disobedient child with your own faith alone, and do not know the faith of Jesus from the heart.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

You repented before you believed? What did you repent of?

 

[Jack]

You of course. Unless I am mistaken.

The Bible is the written Word of God. Jesus is my Savior. Yes you are mistaken.

Are you saying that you have no sin to repent of?

Learn English! I never said any such thing. You and I are sinners!

If not, then you are one of the believers that is not repenting. And you teach believing first and then repent later.

You're a sinner and so am I.

Ghada said, "I have sinned many times as a believer in Jesus"

 

[Ghada]

You repented before you believed? What did you repent of?

I have already given the Bible teaching and testimony of knowing Jesus by full repentance of the heart, and you've mocked it. You show you're not interested in anything you don't already agree with, and you are more than satisfied with the Christianity you've made for yourself in this life.

As the Bible teaches, all I see here therefore is an effort to catch words and find fault again.

It's one thing to have heated debates about certain points of Bible teaching, and I'm all for it without personal rancor. I keep it professional. However it's an entirely different thing to mock the honest testimony of others over some 'doctrinal point' involved.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

The Spirit of Christ bears witness to the hearts of His sons (Rom 8:16). Including over the internet.

 

[Ghada]

The Bible is the written Word of God. Jesus is my Savior. Yes you are mistaken.

Unlike some Christians, I don't doubt the testimony of others, but take all people at their word as much as possible, unless the Bible forbids fellowship based upon open deeds. (1 Cor 5:11)

This is not about declaring who is saved or not, but about the kinds of conversions taught by some Christians. By your own testimony, you teach an imperfect Christian conversion of continued sinning before, during and after your conversion. Your purpose is not that of a newborn purely begotten son of God, to walk as the Son walked through temptations without sinning. Your Christian purpose now is only to sin less than before.

I only teach the perfect conversion of Jesus in the Bible, where all past sin and sinning ends at once upon receiving Him in the heart and being born of His divine Spirit. That is when any man can know all things in His soul and life are at least now all of God.

While your Christian conversion includes being a sinner past, present, and future, the conversion is being a sinner past, not now at present.

And not only now just as Jesus born into the world, but also by His same power of the Spirit, we can and ought today and tomorrow continue the same as Jesus from His youth up.

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

By your own doctrine and testimony, your Christian conversion is the same as other religions of man. You have a sort of sinners' restart in life, where the past is the past, but the present is still sinning, and hopefully tomorrow sinning less. You're still the same sinner as before, but seeking not to sin as much as before.

But you are certainly not now begotten of God even as the babe Jesus. Not ever before, now, nor in the end. Some Christians teach the Bible newborn perfect conversion of Christ is only after the grave. The Bible teaches it as now and today in this life or never.

(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God.

 

[Ghada]

Learn English! I never said any such thing.

And so you most vehemently! reject having no sin to repent of. You still have sin to repent of and are most adamant about it. And yet you deny you are a believer that is not repenting.

This is where some Christians must condemn themselves of being what they don't want to think they are, in order to be loyal to their own doctrine.

If you say you are not a Christian believer that is not repenting. Then you must confess you are a Christian that has no sin to still repent of.

That of course gets you in hot water with your own fellow Christian sinners, that preach it is not possible, boastful, and blasphemous to the point of reprobation, to ever suggest you do not have sinning to repent of.

You and I are sinners!

And so, we see here you are a believer that is still sinning and not repenting.

Also, I don't mind you calling yourself a child of the devil from time to time, or even all the time, if you wish.

He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil is sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is not doing righteousness is not of God, neither he that is not loving his brother.

However, I am not a believer nor partaker of your doctrinal sinful conversion nor your sinful living. Nor am I so proud as to make myself the lone standard and judge by which to judge all others as myself.

I.e. speak for yourself sinner.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This may not seem like much of a distinction, but it is actually all important in some raging debates about Christian salvation and works.

The Bible preaches to repent and believe the gospel. It does not say believe the gospel and then repent.

I don't think the order matters.

If we believe we are saved by confessing the gospel is true, before repenting of dead works, then unto repentance becomes a gradual thing that is good for life, but not necessary for being justified by Christ.

Paul argues in Romans 6 that to believe the gospel is to repent of sins. Repenting of sins is one of the major aspects of believing the gospel.

This is what the Christian gospel of justified with works teaches as the Christian life of progressive natural change, that never ends in whole repentance from all dead works.

Repentance isn't a work.

The Bible says the longsuffering of God is to lead us unto repentance, not unto confession.

Both repentance and confession are essentially the same thing. To repent of dead works is to confess that they are dead works.

It is repentance that leads us to confession of our sins with godly sorrow. Some Christians even teach to believe the gospel and skip repent entirely. It teaches believing we are saved first and always, and then gives lip-service unto repenting of dead works.

I have never heard a Christian say that one can believe and not repent.

The problem with the gospel of believing the gospel unto repentance, is that God cannot beget us newborn and clean, without first repenting of dead works. God cannot wash clean in the blood of His Son, any one knowing they will willingly sin again. The blood of His dear Son washes us wholly clean of all past sinning. The blood of the Lamb of God is not like that of a bull or goat, that only covers continued sinning, as we gradually go on unto repentance.

On the contrary, the Bible places being born again at the head of the ordo salutis, Being born again comes before repentance and before confession. In my opinion, you have it backward.

 

[Ghada]

You're a sinner and so am I.

Ghada said, "I have sinned many times as a believer in Jesus"

And here is more confirmation of your sinners' restart religious conversion. Because we all were sinners, we all must still be sinners. And all we can do is start our sinful life over, to try and sin less.

You do not at all believe the Bible good news of being begotten of God and become newborn sons God, where all the past is dead and gone, and all things are now at once pure and new as the first begotten Son of God coming into the world.

You don't believe the Bible in ever being born sinless as the newborn babe Jesus. Which is one thing, but you also vehemently! preach against it and condemn it as some sort of sinful heresy, that is against all you Christianity converted sinners.

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Here in 2 peter 2, God is not just talking about some Christians that cannot stop themselves from sinning, and seek deliverance from it as Paul did in Romans 7. No, This is where God is talking about purposed teachers and prophets, who push their doctrine of never ceasing to sin on all others. You go so far as to demand confession of it by all confessing Christians. You vehemently! insist we all join in on a modern Christian masochistic rite, where all Christians must continually call ourselves sinners together, arm in arm, in love.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

It's just not the Bible Christianity I hold to. So I decline.

Your effort here is a pathetic inquisition arm of the modern lukewarm Christian religion, of sinful restart conversion.

Once again, I'm not even suggesting you seek the Bible conversion, where all the old life stops here at once. I just show how it's not the Bible.

 

[DJT_47]

Namely:

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

And of course I'm not the one doing so. It's amazing to watch the unbelieving mind at work, trying to convince itself and others how believing it is.

Already done that too.

But, you just prove the point, that once plain words in the Bible are rejected and not believed, then it is pointless to go on down the road to other verses and accounts, where one side argues from faith in all the words of the Bible, and the other side argues from unbelief in some of the words of the Bible.

Afterall, you already declare you do not believe the words to repent ye, and believe the gospel, and instead teach your own doctrine of believe ye the gospel, and then repent. Which of course is when you get around to it in your own good time, or as some Christians like say to say, when God finally starts to get 'really serious' about it. And of course, that repentance is never fully of all sinning from a whole heart for God.

You talk in circles. Did the people whom John the Baptist was baptizing just go down to the water where he was to go fishing out of the clear blue or did they go there go go HERE WHAT HE HAD TO SAY? People don't repent out of the clear; they repent because they have been made aware. They heard, listened, believed what he was saying, and were convinced and convicted in their hearts causing them to believe what he said and repent, not repent because they woke up one morning and said to themselves, I think I'll repent today! They and us as well, repent as a response. WAKE UP! You make no sense.

 

[Jack]

And so you most vehemently! reject having no sin to repent of.

Why do you insist on lying?

You still have sin to repent of and are most adamant about it. And yet you deny you are a believer that is not repenting.

This is where some Christians must condemn themselves of being what they don't want to think they are, in order to be loyal to their own doctrine.

If you say you are not a Christian believer that is not repenting. Then you must confess you are a Christian that has no sin to still repent of.

That of course gets you in hot water with your own fellow Christian sinners, that preach it is not possible, boastful, and blasphemous to the point of reprobation, to ever suggest you do not have sinning to repent of.

You obviously struggle with English!

And so, we see here you are a believer that is still sinning and not repenting.

And yet another LIE!

Also, I don't mind you calling yourself a child of the devil from time to time, or even all the time, if you wish.

He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil is sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is not doing righteousness is not of God, neither he that is not loving his brother.

However, I am not a believer nor partaker of your doctrinal sinful conversion nor your sinful living. Nor am I so proud as to make myself the lone standard and judge by which to judge all others as myself.

I.e. speak for yourself sinner.

So you just tell lies, but you don't sin. That makes about as much sense as anything you've said.

 

[Ghada]

I don't think the order matters.

God does. He says so. If you think switching his words around because it doesn't matter, then I suppose you could go to the original and see about a different translation. However, that's not possible in with Jesus' words, because then it would have to be, believe ye and repent in the gospel...

And there's also Heb 6:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Repentance must remain first by translation alone, but also now by sure doctrine repentance is always spoken first when having faith toward God. Otherwise, laying on of hands could be spoken first. and so also be essential to being saved through faith, as is repentance.

And it's not just important to God and His gospel, but also we see here the efforts of rejecting it elsewhere, in order to insist upon believe and then repent, so that repentance has nothing to do with being saved and justified by Christ.

Paul argues in Romans 6 that to believe the gospel is to repent of sins. Repenting of sins is one of the major aspects of believing the gospel.

Once again, you are downgrading repentance as just 'one of' major aspect. We see in the list of first principles of Heb 6, alongside Jesus' words, it's consistently the first major aspect of His gospel to be saved and justified by Him.

Also, if we're going to make repentance and faith toward God as just a couple of those first principles of Christ, then we can go ahead and list laying on of hands first. Right?

Or do you make a difference between repentance and faith as important from the following principles in Heb 6? If so, then to be consistent let's keep God's words in place, and set repentance in the first spot.

Both repentance and confession are essentially the same thing. To repent of dead works is to confess that they are dead works.

If you mean there is no temporal timeline between repentance and believing, as there is between repentance and laying on of hands, then the Bible agrees.

That is exactly why some Christians demand believe first to be saved, and then repent down the road. They insist on a temporal timeline in order to ensure their salvation by their own faith alone, is always set apart from their works, and never connected to what they may be doing at the time.

I have never heard a Christian say that one can believe and not repent.

None say it literally, but some do obviously teach and confess it.

It's built into the doctrine and the confession of continued sinning through and after their salvation. They speak of repenting after the fact, and so however short or long that is, there still remains a definitive timeline, that they insist on, between believing and repenting.

And so, at some time they believe and repent not. Also, since they do not believe in repenting of all sinning in this life, then there is always times of believing and still repenting not.

If this were all just a bunch of doctrinal theory, then it really doesn't matter the different order to repenting and having faith toward God. It would be just interesting apples and oranges. But since people live their doctrine unto the grave, then dying in our unrepented sins ends only in resurrection unto shame and contempt. (Dan 2)

Teaching it by way of believe and be saved first, before repenting later, makes it all important to know the difference between that Christian doctrine and the Bible.

On the contrary, the Bible places being born again at the head of the ordo salutis, Being born again comes before repentance and before confession. In my opinion, you have it backward.

And so, here we are. Weren't you talking about repent and believe? What happened here to believing? Where did having faith toward God go?

Oh, yes, that is now before repenting and confessing. That comes first with being born again and being saved, with repenting and confessing coming later, just like laying on of hands.

The Bible of course says otherwise.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of:

And so, you have after all just been playing theoretical games of apples and oranges. And it's supposed to somehow lead up to a conclusion you ought to have said in the first place?

"Being born again comes before repentance and before confession."

The Bible begins with repent and believe, you 'suggest' it doesn't matter which comes first, and then conclude, in your opinion, believe must come first before repent.

Salvation must come before repent, confess, laying on of hands, or anything else we Christians may like to do later on.

I of course reject your Christian doctrine, that rejects repent and have faith toward God. You instead insist on teaching believing God first to be saved, before ever repenting of anything at all.

However, your sideshow of trying to make it not matter, did bear some fruit for me in better teaching the doctrine of the Bible. So thanks.

 

[Ghada]

Repentance isn't a work.

Qualifying what we say as being only what we think, is fine. But if we're going to declare something without qualification, then we need Bible to prove it. That is, if we are wanting to ensure we are teaching the Bible, and not just our own doctrine about repentance and work.

And on the face of it, saying that repentance is not work we do, is saying repentance is not what we do. It's akin to the Christian doctrine of having no part in our salvation. Which, I suppose, would mean repenting is not what we do, nor is a work we do.

And your statement is not Bible, because it does not acknowledge James 4's account to resist the devil, so that he flees from us. That means to endure his temptation without sinning in James 1. Resisting and enduring is working indeed. Ever tried resisting a strong wind by faith alone? It takes work of resistance to chase the devil away. It's the work of repenting from sinning, rather than falling to temptation.

Your statement also is from a natural minded view of repentance and works, that does not discern the spiritual works of the Bible.

The natural view of man is that works are only what are done outwardly, and so repentance cannot be 'seen', and so it is not 'work'.

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Our spiritual warfare within is our work of repentance where the real battle to resist the devil begins and ends.

Casting down the tempting thoughts of the world, in order not to lust and do them outwardly in dead works of the flesh, is the spiritual work of our soul, that the natural world does not see, and so says it is not work. But Jesus calls them our first works to love God with the heart and hate iniquity. (See Ephesian church rebuke in Rev 2)

It confirms Jesus judgment that lust from the heart is committing a work of sin in the heart. And so resisting the lust of the world in our heart, is the first work of our repentance.

And this is the whole crux of the importance of the Bible saying several times, on purpose, to repent and have faith toward God. If we are not repenting of lusting for the world, and not resisting the devil to rule our hearts by his lust, then how can we possibly believe and love God from the heart unto salvation?

The Christian doctrine of believe first, and then worrying about repenting later, is the gospel of being saved by faith of hearing only, while still lusting with the devil in the heart, and not loving God with all the heart.

So long as we are lusting from the heart, and being a adulterer as Jesus says, then it is impossible to have faith toward God unto salvation. After all, Paul declares it's not possible to be a member of the body of Christ and be joined also to fornicators.

Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Unless of course we believe we are saved forever first by faith, and then repentance can come later at our leisure. God just has to fellowship with fornicators in the meantime.

No, I'm thinking not.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?

 

[Ghada]

You talk in circles. Did the people whom John the Baptist was baptizing just go down to the water where he was to go fishing out of the clear blue or did they go there go go HERE WHAT HE HAD TO SAY? People don't repent out of the clear; they repent because they have been made aware. They heard, listened, believed what he was saying, and were convinced and convicted in their hearts causing them to believe what he said and repent, not repent because they woke up one morning and said to themselves, I think I'll repent today! They and us as well, repent as a response. WAKE UP! You make no sense.

No, I'm not, and purpose not to talk around your circles.

Didn't I let you know that once someone rejects some words of the Bible, that it's useless to then strive with your unbelief applied to other parts of the Bible?

If not. I am now. You can go ahead and change any verses of the Bible you want about repentance and faith, by your unbelief in Repent ye, and believe, but I'm not interested in chasing you in circles, just to clean it up, but teaching the verses with faith in Repent ye, and believe.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Repent ye, and believe.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of:

Repent ye, and be saved.

Once you repent of sinning, or at least acknowledge the Bible says repent and believe and be saved, then we can talk about other places in the Bible having to do with repentance and believing and salvation.

Until then, keep up your circling of your wagons. I'm not interested in joining you in it.

 

[Jack]

Ghada repented before he even believed! What a miracle!

 

[Ghada]

For all those Christians that do not believe God in the Bible, when He says to repent and believe in order to be saved, who therefore demand to see the Bible expressly say someone newly saved has repented:

When do we read the Bible say Saul of Tarsus repented or even believed the Lord on the road to Damascus? While in Damascus when baptized?

Obviously Paul became a saved Christian by confession of the Lord alone, with no proof of repentance nor faith given by God in the Bible. Therefore, we can be saved by confession only, with repentance and faith only to follow.

In fact, the only other thing said about Paul's conversion, was of the works he did, when he asked the Lord what to do.

And so, Paul was first saved by confession and obedient works, before repenting and before having faith toward God.

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Time and time again we see how God's word in the Bible is written in such a perfect way, so as to expose the mockers and scoffers, and take the so-called smart people in their own craftiness, when they try to show how God doesn't mean exactly what he says word for word, and in order, in His Bible.

I've actually seen Him do it more with Christians not taking Him at His word, than fault-finding unconfessed unbelievers. I guess that's just because more Christians than heathen have a personal axe to grind with the Bible, when it doesn't agree with their thinking and opinions.

Many times I try to include myself in such criticisms about us Christians, because I've been there and done that with most errors of us Christians. However this is not at all one of them. I came to repent, believe, be saved, and filled with the Holy Ghost entirely because the Bible first proved to me to be the unerring words of God. And so, I've never had a problem with letting the Bible be more right, true, and smart than me.

I still continue to go by the old Christian believing axiom, that if the Bible says it, and says it that way, then that's it, and it's up to us to change, not the Bible. Some Christians I have unfortunately found do not believe nor practice that. At least not in any parts they can't quite stomach.

And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

This is the mystery of the little book, which we speak of as 'my' 'your' 'our' Bible to read, believe, and obey. We all love it, when it's to our liking, but it's a bitter pill of truth to take, when we don't like. Only the faithful in Christ take the bitter with the sweet.

But, if we love the words of God on paper more than our own life, then the bitter still goes down like the sweet.

I hate and abhor lying and vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.

The full soul loatheth an honeycomb; but to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God does. He says so. If you think switching his words around because it doesn't matter, then I suppose you could go to the original and see about a different translation. However, that's not possible in with Jesus' words, because then it would have to be, believe ye and repent in the gospel...

You haven't shown or said why you think it matters. Repentance and confession are one and the same thing.

And there's also Heb 6:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Repentance must remain first by translation alone, but also now by sure doctrine repentance is always spoken first when having faith toward God. Otherwise, laying on of hands could be spoken first. and so also be essential to being saved through faith, as is repentance.

It appears that you might need further clarification on the passage. Paul is conveying an argument in a manner that resembles addressing a large audience. At this juncture in his argument, he informs the reader that he intends to expand on the subject of faith, having already made his primary point, which he summarizes using a list. The items on the list are not in any particular order. In other words, the final statement is not meant to be a sequence of events where one must take place before the other. Instead, each item on the list is meant to contribute towards a comprehensive understanding.

And it's not just important to God and His gospel, but also we see here the efforts of rejecting it elsewhere, in order to insist upon believe and then repent, so that repentance has nothing to do with being saved and justified by Christ.

I already know your main idea. But you are stretching passages beyond what they intend to say.

Once again, you are downgrading repentance as just 'one of' major aspect. We see in the list of first principles of Heb 6, alongside Jesus' words, it's consistently the first major aspect of His gospel to be saved and justified by Him.

With all due respect, I must clarify that I did not intend to belittle the concept of repentance. I disagree with your assertion that repentance and faith are separate concepts in the Bible. In fact, I believe that repentance is a crucial element of faith, as I mentioned earlier. Paul argues this point at the beginning of Romans chapter 6.

Let me bring this forward for us to examine.

Romans 6:1-3

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? ​

Paul makes a lengthy argument spanning one and a half more chapters, but we can focus on his initial statement for now. In Chapter 6, he introduces a new aspect of his argument where he poses rhetorical questions that Jewish people living in Rome might ask. They may argue that obedience is the path to seek God's favor. However, Paul counters this by stating that justification is not earned through obedience alone, but rather through God's grace and faith in Jesus Christ.

In this passage, the author emphasizes that having faith in Jesus Christ means understanding the reason for his death on the cross. If someone believes in Jesus, they also acknowledge that his death was a sacrifice for our sins. By dying in our place, he gave us the opportunity to turn away from a life of sin. When we confess our faith, we also acknowledge our need for repentance, as Paul highlights in his question, "How can we who died to sin still live in it?" To believe in Jesus is to reject sin and acknowledge our own imperfections, relying on God's grace to free us from sin altogether.

So, you see, the Christian faith, properly understood includes repentance. And those who say that repentance can wait, are not fully informed of the gospel message. The content of our faith includes repentance.

That is exactly why some Christians demand believe first to be saved, and then repent down the road. They insist on a temporal timeline in order to ensure their salvation by their own faith alone, is always set apart from their works, and never connected to what they may be doing at the time.

Well, I think you and I agree that such Christians are mistaken as I demonstrated above.

And so, here we are. Weren't you talking about repent and believe? What happened here to believing? Where did having faith toward God go?

Oh, yes, that is now before repenting and confessing. That comes first with being born again and being saved, with repenting and confessing coming later, just like laying on of hands.

The Bible of course says otherwise.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of:

It seems that you require further clarification regarding the "born again" experience. Repentance and belief are choices made by an individual, however, before a person can make these choices, their heart must be softened by God. The Bible emphasizes that a person with a hard heart will resist repentance and belief. Therefore, being born again is the first step towards salvation. As explained in John 3, salvation is a spiritual experience that is initiated by the Holy Spirit in the heart of the individual whom God is saving. Softening of the heart precedes repentance and belief.

Those who insist that repentance can wait a long time after belief, are not born again.

Salvation must come before repent, confess, laying on of hands, or anything else we Christians may like to do later on.

I never claimed that salvation comes before repentance, confession, and belief, as you mistakenly assumed. It seems like you may not be aware that being born again is the first step in God's process of saving a person. However, being born again is not the entirety of salvation, as you seem to think. Let's refresh our understanding of what salvation truly means. Paul explains the concept of salvation in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

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It is a common misconception that people are "saved" when they are born again. In reality, being born again is just the first step in the process of salvation, which ultimately ends with being set free from sin and death. This occurs when the perishable takes on the imperishable, an event that is described as happening when the last trumpet sounds. Therefore, no one is truly saved until that moment.

I of course reject your Christian doctrine, that rejects repent and have faith toward God. You instead insist on teaching believing God first to be saved, before ever repenting of anything at all.

However, your sideshow of trying to make it not matter, did bear some fruit for me in better teaching the doctrine of the Bible. So thanks.

May I say that your rhetoric is a bit caustic and unproductive? A Christian message board is not the appropriate place to openly accept or reject another person's so-called "Christian doctrine" -- a phrase you often use to shut down open dialogue. We are here to listen to another point of view and to privately evaluate the merits of the views we read.

In this post, I provisionally considered your objections as interrogatory statements asking for clarification. Hopefully, I was successful. But I am willing to clarify even further if you strive to keep the dialogue open.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Qualifying what we say as being only what we think, is fine. But if we're going to declare something without qualification, then we need Bible to prove it. That is, if we are wanting to ensure we are teaching the Bible, and not just our own doctrine about repentance and work.

And on the face of it, saying that repentance is not work we do, is saying repentance is not what we do. It's akin to the Christian doctrine of having no part in our salvation. Which, I suppose, would mean repenting is not what we do, nor is a work we do.

I understand that you may be confused about the definition of "work." After reading several posts, it seems like you may be using the terms "do" and "work" interchangeably, but they actually have different meanings. I previously tried to explain that "work" involves expending energy, which is reflected in the Greek word "erg" that scientists use as a unit of energy.

The term "work" refers to an activity that requires physical or mental effort. However, not everything we do requires energy. For instance, thinking, believing, or repenting are activities that we "do" but they are not considered "work". On the other hand, giving a thirsty person a drink of water is considered work as it involves physical effort. Simply thinking about giving someone water does not qualify as work since it is not an action, but rather just a thought.

The Bible speaks to those who say one thing but do another and those who hear the word but do something else instead. The Bible commends those who act according to what they confess. As you know, James reminds his readers of this very thing. Repentance may be a mental work, but it isn't "a work" as the Bible defines "work."

You may be confused about the meaning of the word "repentance". Repentance is not just a change of direction, but rather it involves confessing that one is on the wrong path and feeling remorse for one's actions. It also involves choosing to do the right thing and leaving behind a sinful lifestyle. However, it is essential to note that actually doing the right thing constitutes "the works" of repentance. Repentance itself is contrition and confession.

And your statement is not Bible, because it does not acknowledge James 4's account to resist the devil, so that he flees from us. That means to endure his temptation without sinning in James 1. Resisting and enduring is working indeed. Ever tried resisting a strong wind by faith alone? It takes work of resistance to chase the devil away. It's the work of repenting from sinning, rather than falling to temptation.

You are reading too much into my four-word statement. Need I remind you of what John the Baptist said to his own people concerning repentance? Consider the passage below where John's work assumes a distinction between "repentance" as such, and "fruits in keeping with repentance."

Luke 3:8-14

Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”​

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And the crowds were questioning him, saying, “Then what shall we do?” And he would answer and say to them, “The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise.” And some tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Collect no more than what you have been ordered to.” Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.​

Repentance is a matter of the will and the mind, but the fruits of repentance are a matter of actions we take in keeping with repentance.

Your statement also is from a natural minded view of repentance and works, that does not discern the spiritual works of the Bible.

Your claim is without merit and a bit arrogant. You say such things often, as if disagreement with you is tantamount to natural thinking. Let's direct our attention to the merits of our statements as compared to the Biblical evidence and leave personal judgments at the door.

Our spiritual warfare within is our work of repentance where the real battle to resist the devil begins and ends.

Agreed. As I said. Repentance is a spiritual war within. It is not a work we do without.

Casting down the tempting thoughts of the world, in order not to lust and do them outwardly in dead works of the flesh, is the spiritual work of our soul, that the natural world does not see, and so says it is not work. But Jesus calls them our first works to love God with the heart and hate iniquity. (See Ephesian church rebuke in Rev 2)

Casting down tempting thoughts is not a work because a work involves action. Thinking is something we do that doesn't involve action.

Jesus refers to Love as "a work" because beneficent actions are the sum and substance of love. When Jesus or the Father speak about "love" they aren't talking about feelings of love and affection; they are talking about performing acts of kindness or charity. When it says, "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated" it refers to outward actions that God took.

It confirms Jesus judgment that lust from the heart is committing a work of sin in the heart. And so resisting the lust of the world in our heart, is the first work of our repentance.

Don't misunderstand what Jesus said about lust and adultery. Jesus wasn't equating lust and adultery. He was telling the Pharisees that if they lusted after a woman, they committed adultery in their hearts. Even human law makes a distinction between what we think about doing and what we actually do.

And this is the whole crux of the importance of the Bible saying several times, on purpose, to repent and have faith toward God. If we are not repenting of lusting for the world, and not resisting the devil to rule our hearts by his lust, then how can we possibly believe and love God from the heart unto salvation?

Agreed, but please bear in mind that you speak of inward realities not outward realities. Faith, belief, contrition, and repentance are inward realities, and we are being saved in light of those inward realities. If the devil rules the heart of a man, this is an inward reality; Likewise, if God rules the heart of a man, this is also an inward reality. Lust is an aspect of our inwardness. Desire is inward. Covetousness is inward.

As a child of God, it is important to resist being controlled by negative emotions such as lust, desire, greed, and fear. These feelings may be present within, but not all are outwardly visible. Unfortunately, even Christian men may struggle with lusting after women, but this is a regrettable aspect of human nature that will not exist in the future. Acknowledging one's own flaws is important, but as a child of God, one must not give in to these urges and instead use their actions to serve a higher purpose.

The point is, works are what we do outwardly, not who we are inwardly. I may be attracted by a beautiful woman, but outwardly, as a Christian man, I manifest the fruits of the spirit, treating her with respect, and acts of kindness, generosity, patience, and charity.

The Christian doctrine of believe first, and then worrying about repenting later, is the gospel of being saved by faith of hearing only, while still lusting with the devil in the heart, and not loving God with all the heart.

What you describe is not a Christian doctrine.

 

[DJT_47]

No, I'm not, and purpose not to talk around your circles.

Didn't I let you know that once someone rejects some words of the Bible, that it's useless to then strive with your unbelief applied to other parts of the Bible?

If not. I am now. You can go ahead and change any verses of the Bible you want about repentance and faith, by your unbelief in Repent ye, and believe, but I'm not interested in chasing you in circles, just to clean it up, but teaching the verses with faith in Repent ye, and believe.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Repent ye, and believe.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of:

Repent ye, and be saved.

Once you repent of sinning, or at least acknowledge the Bible says repent and believe and be saved, then we can talk about other places in the Bible having to do with repentance and believing and salvation.

Until then, keep up your circling of your wagons. I'm not interested in joining you in it.

Once again, you make no sense. How does one know about sin and repentance? They have to hear. Someone had to preach to them, and if they are convinced that they are on sin and therefore need to repent and believe, they'll repent. If they've .ever realized they are in sin and need to repent how can even consider doing so??? Makes no sense, nor have you up to this point.

 

[Ghada]

You haven't shown or said why you think it matters. Repentance and confession are one and the same thing.

Didn't I say it matters because God says so? A couple of times I think.

The items on the list are not in any particular order. In other words, the final statement is not meant to be a sequence of events where one must take place before the other.

So, laying on of hands can be before having faith toward God. Being resurrected from the dead can be before being baptized.

One thing is for sure, that in the end you made quite clear:

Being born again comes before repentance and before confession. In my opinion, you have it backward.

Faith to be saved definitely must come before anything else. So much so, that anyone saying otherwise has it backward.

I already know your main idea. But you are stretching passages beyond what they intend to say.

Not by repeating them.

With all due respect, I must clarify that I did not intend to belittle the concept of repentance. I disagree with your assertion that repentance and faith are separate concepts in the Bible.

Not me. You. Shall I quote? Being born again comes before repentance and before confession. In my opinion, you have it backward.

In fact, I believe that repentance is a crucial element of faith,

After the fact, I know. Being born again comes before repentance and before confession. In my opinion, you have it backward.

relying on God's grace to free us from sin altogether.

But never in this life, right?

So, you see, the Christian faith, properly understood includes repentance.

The Bible properly read, means repentance includes faith unto salvation.

And those who say that repentance can wait, are not fully informed of the gospel message. The content of our faith includes repentance.

Then stop teaching it. Being born again comes before repentance and before confession. In my opinion, you have it backward.

Softening of the heart precedes repentance and belief.

This is just teaching being born again by faith alone, before repentance.

Being born again is being saved, being circumcised by Christ, being baptized into the body of Christ, being sanctified from the sins of the world unto God, and is only with repenting unto faith toward God. Not before.

Heart softening is before repenting with godly sorrow unto being born again of God and saved and sanctified unto Himself. Without repenting the heart only grows harder and colder.

The good ground is not soft mushy ground, but repented ground.

Those who insist that repentance can wait a long time after belief, are not born again.

Then stop preaching believe unto salvation first, before repenting. Being born again comes before repentance and before confession. In my opinion, you have it backward.

Once you open the door to any timeline of faith and salvation before repentance, you've opened the whole box of never repenting to cease from sinning.

I never claimed that salvation comes before repentance, confession, and belief, as you mistakenly assumed.

Being born again comes before repentance and before confession. In my opinion, you have it backward.

It seems like you may not be aware that being born again is the first step in God's process of saving a person. However, being born again is not the entirety of salvation, as you seem to think.

I know that we are only being saved in this life, and only obtain eternal salvation in the resurrection by enduring and obeying Jesus unto the end.

But being born a new creature is being saved, which is by repenting of sinning unto faith toward God.

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It is a common misconception that people are "saved" when they are born again. In reality, being born again is just the first step in the process of salvation, which ultimately ends with being set free from sin and death.

And so, you preach the Bible new birth only after the grave.

Other Christians preach the same thing, that also preach your gospel of another kind of new birth before partial repentance unto death.

You replace salvation by faith alone with new birth by faith alone. A distinction without a difference. The result is the same: Partial repentance only unto death.

Your gospel is not the Bible, because your new birth is not of Jesus Christ, but of continued sinning before, during, and afterward.

This occurs when the perishable takes on the imperishable, an event that is described as happening when the last trumpet sounds. Therefore, no one is truly saved until that moment.

Waiting to be newborn like Jesus after the grave, is waiting one day too late.

May I say that your rhetoric is a bit caustic and unproductive?

Try being honest first. When we oppose someone's teaching, we say so first, then give reasons why. We don't play nice with sideshow phony arguments, that have nothing to do with the opposition held back until the end.

Being born again comes before repentance and before confession. In my opinion, you have it backward.

All you did was go from pretending the order doesn't matter, to declaring the order pertaining to faith first certainly does matter, and anyone not believing it has got it backwards.

A Christian message board is not the appropriate place to openly accept or reject another person's so-called "Christian doctrine" --

Oh yes it certainly is. What, you don't want anyone to agree with you? Right. No, what you want is for no one to disagree with you.

If you don't want objections to anything you say, then simply say so, and I'll move on. I don't violate anyone's stated wishes. Although, you have a false notion about what you open yourself to, once we publicly air our doctrinal laundry.

I completely reject your Christian gospel of being born of God, will still sinning with the devil through partial 'progressive' repentance unto death.

That includes waiting for the grave to become wholly new with all things being only then of God, and nothing remaining of the devil.

It also includes your effort to paint sinning against God as just an 'imperfection', like burping and hacking up phlegm. Not pretty, but not a sin either.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

This is now or never. Being newborn of God through repentance of sinning unto faith toward God, is to be at once perfectly washed clean of all past life, with all things now being new and all things are of God, even as the babe Jesus from the womb of Mary. With nothing of the the past sin and devil remaining in us nor through us.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

And so now, we walk that way in newness of life, and grow and walk with the same purity and blamelessness of life as when first newborn, even as Jesus walked from His youth up.

(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Notice the day of salvation is now and today being a newborn and wholly sanctified creation in Christ Jesus. Obtaining eternal irrevocable salvation is only by resurrection unto life, as reward of inheritance for doing the will of God with Jesus Christ in the end. Not waiting until after the grave to cease the sinning of the devil.