The Biblical Basis for Catholic Distinctives

[Cassandra]

Cassandra: "God asked that those images be made.. None of them were to be bowed down tofoe veneration. it says here "You shall not bow down yourself to them or worship them." God did not tell the church to fill itself with icons.No one was allowed inside of the Holy or the Most holy Place in the Temple--only the priests."

How ironic that you overlook Jesus' use of Moses' graven image of the serpent (Numbers 21:9) as a type of the healing power of His coming crucifixion (See John 3:14-15). Snake-bitten Jews were healed by gazing on the serpent!


Cassandra: "What is the purpose of martyrs and saints images in your churches?"

Do you disrespect Catholic celebration of pre-Reformation martyrs just because they gave their lives for the Gospel prior to the Protestant Reformation? A former priest friend and I were giggling over the evangelical misperception that Catholics pray to statues. Evangelicals tend to be tone-deaf to the inspiration of memorial sculptures and statues.

I don't disrespect celebration of anyone. I just wonder what they are doing in Church, thinking that Jesus should be the focus, and questioning why the saints and martyrs are in there. I just asked a question. Glad you and the priest had a good laugh, though.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Catholics believe that believers outside the Catholic church can be saved

Please MAKE UP our mind!

FROM RCC: "There is no salvation apart from Christ AND his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics."

You simply CANNOT "believe the truth AND A LIE "At THE SAME Time!" Or can you???

 

[Berserk]

grace, I was an evangelical professor in a Catholic university's theology department for 12 years. Catholic apologists in this thread have already corrected your misunderstanding of their doctrine of salvation. So I won't repeat their correction.
Let me ask you a pointed question:
(1) Why do evangelicals need to summon a Catholic exorcist because evangelical deliverance teams fail so miserably. I gave 2 examples of this for which I have a personal connection.
(2) Why do Catholic prayers to saints produce astounding miracles like a healing of congestive heart failure that fundamentalist posters here have never experienced or even heard of? A Catholic shared his experience of this miracle with me.
(3) Why would God heal my friend Dick (an evangelical!) when he poured water on his knee with torn tendons and bad arthritis, water from the healing spring at the house of the Virgin Mary near Ephesus? And Dick didn't even believe in the healing power of this Marian spring! He poured the water just to stop the outside pressure to do so.

 

[BreadOfLife]

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,[134] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.[135]
492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son."[136] The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love."[137]

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature."[138]By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

I don't know how many times I've had to explain this to you from the Bible - but here goes again . . .

The Greek word that the Angel used to describe Mary in Luke 1:28 is "Kecharitomene".
This word is defined as "completely, perfectly, and enduringly endowed with grace "- and is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a PERMANENT result.”

This is the conditopn those in Heaven ate in - but NOT those on earth.
We are BEING sanctified (Hebr. 10:14) - which is a process.

Typical...to wander off topic.
I was speaking of Christ’s Church, and Verifying what you hear with Scripture.............and you respond with TRADITIONS and SPEAKING.

"Off topic"??

YOU were the one talking about HAVING to verify things in Scripture - anbd I pointed to 2 Thess. 2:15, which shoiots your false, 16th century, man-made invention down.
YOU just got schooled in Scripture by a Catholic . . .

You simply per usual make accusations.....
You claim “the Church” is not the Catholic definition of what “the Church” is, but YOU FAIL to state what is “the Church” according to the Catholic definition.
OOPS! LOL You’re wrong according to your own Church.
Catholic Catechism....
Article 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

750 To believe that the Church is "holy" and "catholic," and that she is "one" and "apostolic" (as the Nicene Creed adds), is inseparable from belief in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the Apostles' Creed we profess "ONE Holy Church" ...

I believe in the Church, which is Christ on earth (Acts 9:4-5).
You duvorced yourself from His Church.

Remember - ONE,Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Not tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines based on the whims of their human founders. . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

When you say “the church”, what does that mean to you?

ONE, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
Not tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines based on the whims of their human founders. . .

 

[farouk]

@Illuminator

Just to add a little to your eloquent post, even JESUS didn't SOLELY rely on scripture for his teaching.

Actually, the Lord Jesus said: "Thy word is truth" (John 17.17).

 

[Mink57]

I don't disrespect celebration of anyone. I just wonder what they are doing in Church, thinking that Jesus should be the focus, and questioning why the saints and martyrs are in there. I just asked a question. Glad you and the priest had a good laugh, though.

Since when does having statutes and/or pictures of martyrs and/or saints in church mean that Jesus is NOT the focus?

If you have pictures of your children/family/friends/pets on your desk at work, does that mean that your focus isn't on your job?

 

[Illuminator]

The religion of the Old Testament was filled with many practices that no longer apply: a separate priesthood, one or more intermediaries between God and people, an ornate temple of worship, priestly garb, many rituals and ceremonies, etc. Oh, wait, they're still alive in the Catholic church.

The OT is fulfilled in Catholicism whereas you guys just cancel it out.

Why does Catholicism feel it necessary to add so many OT rituals, etc. to faith in God?

Our heritage is rooted in Judaism, our "elder brother". You have no Jewish roots. There are no "additions" but developed forms of what was believed and practiced from the very beginning, by everyone everywhere.

By and large, Protestantism merely asserts “sola Scriptura” without much consideration of the seriously-flawed implications of the same, and judges all doctrines accordingly. Therefore, those which are deemed to be either outright unbiblical or insufficiently grounded in Scripture to be authoritative, are jettisoned: the Marian doctrines, Purgatory, Penance, the papacy, etc. Apart from the question of Tradition as a legitimate carrier (alongside and in harmony with Scripture) of Christian belief, much more biblical support can be found in Scripture for these “Catholic” doctrines than Protestants suppose.

One simply needs to become familiar with Catholic biblical apologetic arguments. The idea of doctrinal development is a key, in any case, for understanding why the Catholic Church often appears on the surface as fundamentally different than the early Church. Thoughtful Protestants owe it to themselves and intellectual honesty to ponder this indispensable notion before lashing out at the allegedly “unbiblical excesses” of Catholicism.​

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/03/development-of-doctrine-corruption-of.html
Jesus didn't abolish ritual, He perfected them.

Jesus was a rural man who spoke Aramaic -- a true "man of the people".

Indeed.
ܐܴܦ݂ ܐܷܢܳܐ ܐܴܡܰܪ ܐ̱ܢܳܐ ܠܴܟ݂ ܂ ܕܱ݁ܐܢ̄ܬ݁ ܗ̄ܽܘ ܟܻ݁ܐܦ݂ܳܐ ܂ ܘܥܰܠ ܗܳܕ݂ܶܐ ܟܻ݁ܐܦ݂ܳܐ ܐܷܒ݂ܢܶܝܗ ܠܥܺܕ̱݁ܬ݁ܝ܂ ܘܬ݂ܱܪ̈ܥܶܐ ܕܱ݁ܫܝܽܘܠ ܠܴܐ ܢܶܚܣܢܽܘܢܳܗ
“Again I say to you that you are the Rock (Kepha), and upon this Rock (Kepha) I will build my Church, and the gates of Sheol will not subdue it.
The Greek transliteration of the Aramaic/Syriac word ܟܺܐܦܳܐ is κῆφα. Our word “Cephas” is the Latin transliteration of the Greek word. Paul refers to Peter by name ten times (from my count) in his letters. Of those 10 times, he calls him Cephas eight times, but πέτρος only twice. This may indicate that Peter was commonly addressed by the Aramaic term in that time and place, which further corroborates the hypothesis that it is the name originally given to him by Jesus, and whose gender would not have conflicted in the two instances in Matthew 16. Why else would Paul, who obviously knew Greek just fine, consistently refer to Peter as Cephas in letters written to congregations in the Greek-speaking areas of Corinth (Greece) and Galatia (Asia Minor, northwest of Cappadocia)? Because everyone understood who Rock was, no matter the language. Even further still, we have in John 1 another account of Jesus telling Peter that he will be called Rock. In this instance, even in the Greek we find Jesus telling Peter that he will be called Kepha (using the Greek transliteration of the Aramaic)

It was never a problem until the middle of a revolt by hostile "reformers" whose faulty interpretation was born for political reasons.

Even in one of His finest hours he came into Jerusalem riding on the back of a donkey colt, not in a gilded chariot.

Because a gilded chariot would not fulfil prophecy.

All the worship of Mary,

 

[Illuminator]

Since when does having statutes and/or pictures of martyrs and/or saints in church mean that Jesus is NOT the focus?

If you have pictures of your children/family/friends/pets on your desk at work, does that mean that your focus isn't on your job?

The Protestant iconoclastic fervor was as virulent and extreme as the destructive energy displayed by the modern-day Islamic extremists.
read more here

 

[Taken]

I don't know how many times I've had to explain this to you from the Bible - but here goes again . . .

The Greek word that the Angel used to describe Mary in Luke 1:28 is "Kecharitomene".
This word is defined as "completely, perfectly, and enduringly endowed with grace "- and is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a PERMANENT result.”

Uh huh, heard your convoluted repeated rendering of mens understanding.

Scripture says...
Gen 6:8 Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Ex 3:21 Favour from God to the children of Israel.
Ex 33:17 Moses found favor in the LORDS sight.
Acts 7:45-46 David...found favour before God...
Luke 1:30 Mary...found favour with God.

YOUR catholic appointed men changing God’s finding of Favour in earthly persons, to a convoluted favoring of Mary, by declaring her found favor with God was Gods act of MAKING her SINLESS from her birth, is one of the most egregious acts YOUR catholic church is accredited with.

Your Believing and Advocating the Belief of a few catholic men, is accountable to you.

Every person God FINDS Favor with, IS expressly revealed in SCRIPTURE of WHY God has FOUND Favor in that person, and the Precise Blessing God gives that person.
Nothing whatsoever in Scripture declares Mary’s Favoring or Blessing was her being naturally born without sin.

While YOUR catholic church desperately tries to exalt Mary, YOUR catholic church instead disparages her memory that she being dead and buried can not stand up and say.... she was a faithful servant, not greater or EQUAL to her master...stop bowing down to her and preaching she is seated as a queen of Gods Kingdom.

just got schooled in Scripture by a Catholic . . .

Actually all that sadly occurred was a catholic again posted catholic rhetoric not found in Scripture.

 

[Taken]

ONE, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

Yep, as I said and you claimed was wrong. LOL

Not tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines based on the whims of their human founders. . .

Yep, Agree... the “Catholic Church” is NOT one of the tens of thousands of “Christ’s Church”....

 

[Taken]

Since when does having statutes and/or pictures of martyrs and/or saints in church mean that Jesus is NOT the focus?

If you have pictures of your children/family/friends/pets on your desk at work, does that mean that your focus isn't on your job?

I don’t put up “pretend” pictures and say “that” is my family.
I don’t erect statues and say “that statue” is my family.
I don’t “bow down in prayer” before any pictures or statues.
I don’t carry around “trinkets” to remind me of my family.
Neither do I do such things to “remind” me to “focus” on the Lord God Almighty.

Our reminders of God, of Jesus, of Christ;
ARE seen before us as we look about at what the Lord God Almighty created and made.
Our reminders of God, of Jesus, of Christ;
ARE heard in us as our ears hear His spoken Word, as our eyes read His spoken Word, (as our hearts Hear and Listen to His Word in us;, ie those who ARE converted.)

Your comparison is nil.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Uh huh, heard your convoluted repeated rendering of mens understanding.

Scripture says...
Gen 6:8 Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Ex 3:21 Favour from God to the children of Israel.
Ex 33:17 Moses found favor in the LORDS sight.
Acts 7:45-46 David...found favour before God...
Luke 1:30 Mary...found favour with God.

YOUR catholic appointed men changing God’s finding of Favour in earthly persons, to a convoluted favoring of Mary, by declaring her found favor with God was Gods act of MAKING her SINLESS from her birth, is one of the most egregious acts YOUR catholic church is accredited with.
Your Believing and Advocating the Belief of a few catholic men, is accountable to you.

Every person God FINDS Favor with, IS expressly revealed in SCRIPTURE of WHY Gods has FOUND Favor in that person, and the Precise Blessing God gives that person.
Nothing whatsoever in Scripture declares Mary’s Favoring or Blessing was her being naturally born without sin.

While YOUR catholic church desperately tries to exalt Mary, YOUR catholic church instead disparages her memory that she being dead and buried can not stand up and say.... she was a faithful servant, not greater or EQUAL to her master...stop bowing down to her and preaching she is seated as a queen of Gods Kingdom.

WOW, are you really that dense?
Time for another Bible and Linguistics lesson . . .

That people in ithe Bible founs "FAVOR" with God id not the issue. Mary didn't simply find "FAVOR" - she was goiven the title of "Kecharitomene in Luke 1:28. As I educated you in my last post - this word us defoined as "one having been completely, perfectly, and enduringly endowed with grace". It is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a PERMANENT result.

NOBODY in ALL of Scripture (OT or NT) wasa given this title other than Mary.

Actually all that sadly occurred was a catholic again posted catholic rhetoric not found in Scripture.

Unfortunately for YOU - evrythoing I just told you here and in my LAST post us found in Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yep, as I said and you claimed was wrong. LOL

Wrong?
The Church IS -
- ONE (John 17:20-23)
- HOLY (Eph. 5:25)
- CATHOLIC (Acts 9:31)
- APOSTOLIC (Acts 1:12-26)

Soooooo, instead of "LOL"-ing - maybe you should spend some time studying Scripture . . .

Yep, Agree... the “Catholic Church” is NOT one of the tens of thousands of “Christ’s Church”....

No - it's not one of your tens of thousands of MAN-MADE and perpetually-splintering factions.
It is the Original Tree from which ALL disjointed Protestant sects have splintered . . .

 

[Marymog]

I have a sister and a few others . They love the Lord . We sure dont seem to be coming to opposite conclusions of what we read .
WE seem to be agreeing . As i said , SEEK YE GOD with your whole heart and learn HIM for yourself .
Truth will always come to those who do seek the LORD . Its true most folks might come to contrary understandings
But lambs dont . So let us not base our own understanding through the faults of men . GO YE and simply LEARN JESUS
for yourself in the scrips . And watch what would happen .

Sooooo if a group disagrees with 'you, your sister and a few others' on the proper interpretation of Scripture when it comes to on what one must do to be saved..... who is right and who is wrong? Your group or the other group?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Please MAKE UP our mind!

You simply CANNOT "believe the truth AND A LIE "At THE SAME Time!" Or can you???

You should quote ALL of what The Church teaches instead of only quoting part of what The Church teaches so that it fits your narrative:

Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God.

 

[Marymog]

While YOUR catholic church desperately tries to exalt Mary, ....

God exalted Mary. Jesus exalted Mary. Why don't you?

 

[Jim B]

In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
- The High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also THREE levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious than the Old Testament type - WITHIUT exception.

I notice that you don't give scriptural references for the Old Testament. Where do you find the "general priesthood" of OT believers?

And then you come up with "the ministerial priests" from this: "Is anyone among you ill? He should summon the elders of the church, and they should pray for him and anoint him with olive oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick and the Lord will raise him up—and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven." This refers to the elders of the church, not "ministerial priests" (a manufactured term). You are correct about the priesthood of all Christians; there is no separate class of priests as there is in the OT and the Catholic church.

I am a firm believer in what the Bible -- the Word of God -- clearly says. Everything else is an invention of church elders trying to justify their position. In the New Testament, there is 1) no Pope, 2) no Catholic church, 3) no bishops or cardinals, 4) no ornate cathedrals, 5) no "fathers" (Matthew 23:9, "And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.", 6) no confession of sins resulting in absolution from priests, 7) no exclusion of any who want to take the bread and wine, and many more, 8) no inquisitions, and many more.

Sola scriptura.

 

[amigo de christo]

Sooooo if a group disagrees with 'you, your sister and a few others' on the proper interpretation of Scripture when it comes to on what one must do to be saved..... who is right and who is wrong? Your group or the other group?

Curious Mary

What a truly wonderful question . You just asked a good question .
So allow me to answer . ITS the group that Holds to what scripture says that is right . Not the group that twists it or omits it .
So allow me to do what i love to do . LET us get back into the bible and simply learn the doctrine for ourselves .
OH yes , stop trusting in men and learn the bible for yourself . Exactly . Thanks for the question . IT really was a good question to ask .

 

[amigo de christo]

God exalted Mary. Jesus exalted Mary. Why don't you?

Men led you astray , not by saying Mary is exalted , but by teaching you all TO PRAY TO HER .
OOPS .
This is what i mean by learn thy bible doctrine well . Seems to me that the apostels all seen themselves as equals .
And that even peter told men not to look on him as some great thing .
Rest assured from the truth written in acts and in other places , NOT a one of them
ever decked himself up , wore big fancy hats and clothes , nor had anyone bowing to them and kissing rings .
FACT is they all shut down this kind of worship and fast . THIS again is what i mean when i say
LEARN the bible for YOU . cause your men have led that church astray big time .
Men you trust in and take their word as the word of GOD when in truth it contradicts the WORD of GOD
and even the teachings of peter himself and other apostels .
Big hats , having men kneel before them . PETER and JOHN shut that kind of stuff down .
WHY Do ye look on us as though ........
Paul shut it down and he shut down other leaders who were trying to exalt themselves as well .
BELEIVE HE said they do the work of satan . and not to marvel for satan himself can appear as an angel of light
thus its not a big thing that his , satans , ministirs can appear as men of righteousness .
NOW you know why on earth i have been telling you and others , RETURN TO THE BIBLE
and do so fast .