The Biblical Foundations of Purgatory

[Berserk]

This thread will focus successively on how Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John the Seer lay the foundation for the later Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

[1] THE GEHENNA CONCEPT SHARED BY BOTH JESUS AND CONTEMPORARY RABBIS:

The Feast of Hanukkah celebrates Judas Maccabaeus' victories during the Maccabean revolt (175-163 BC). In one of his decisive victories, Judas defeated an army of 5,000 Arabs. Tiny idols were found in the possession of dead Jewish freedom fighters; so Judas orders prayer for Jewish casualties, who were found with tiny idols in their possession. These prayers for the dead were accompanied by sin offerings in the Temple (2 Maccabees 12:38-44)." Since Jesus attended and revered this feast (John 10:22) and so, He likely respected the prayers and sacrifices celebrated in it, He likely approved of the prayers for the military dead.

Of course, prayers for the sinful dead presume the possibility of retrieval from "Gehenna," Jesus' preferred word for Hell. Much like the later concept of Purgatory, Gehenna was considered a realm of a temporary sojourn for many sinners. For example, Rabbi Akiba (c. 50-135 AD) from the NT era taught that sinners stayed in Gehenna for just 12 months (Shabbat 33b). Similarly, Jesus teaches that postmortem punish might consist of "many" or "few stripes (Luke 12:47-48)," imagery that implies a finite limit and therefore ultimate release.

A finite limit is also implied in Jesus' poetic description of postmortem punishment:
"Come to terms quickly with your accuser (Satan's role in Job) while you are on your way to court with him, or the accuser may hand you over to the Judge (God), and the Judge to the guard (Hell's demons), and you will be thrown into prison (Gehenna). Truly I tell you, you will never get out of there until you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26)."

There are 5 reasons to take this as a description of punishment in Gehenna:
(1) It makes no sense if taken literally: Jesus would be crassly telling the disciple how they can beat the rap on criminal charges.
(2) More importantly, in 40 cases Jesus always uses the formula "Truly I tell you" to our relationship with God and never to a purely secular situation.
(3) Elsewhere Jesus stresses the necessity of paying off sin debts in postmortem prison (Matthew 18:34).
(4) In early Christianity Matthew 5:25-26 is always understood symbolically, never literally.
(5) thus, Luke locates this saying in an eschatological context (12:57-59).

But what about Gospel texts that speak of eternal punishment (Matthew 25:41, 46)?
No problem for 2 reasons: (1) The Aramaic "olam" and Greek "aionios" often translated "forever" can both designate a finite duration. (2) The rabbinic concept of punishment in Gehenna for a limited time acknowledges that certain categories of sinner are never retrieved from there. So the positions of both Jesus and contemporary rabbis do not endorse ultimate universal salvation, but only a purification for a limited time, much akin to the Catholic Purgatory.
(1)

 

[GodsGrace]

This thread will focus successively on how Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John the Seer lay the foundation for the later Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

[1] THE GEHENNA CONCEPT SHARED BY BOTH JESUS AND CONTEMPORARY RABBIS:

The Feast of Hanukkah celebrates Judas Maccabaeus' victories during the Maccabean revolt (175-163 BC). In one of his decisive victories, Judas defeated an army of 5,000 Arabs. Tiny idols were found in the possession of dead Jewish freedom fighters; so Judas orders prayer for Jewish casualties, who were found with tiny idols in their possession. These prayers for the dead were accompanied by sin offerings in the Temple (2 Maccabees 12:38-44)." Since Jesus attended and revered this feast (John 10:22) and so, He likely respected the prayers and sacrifices celebrated in it, He likely approved of the prayers for the military dead.

Of course, prayers for the sinful dead presume the possibility of retrieval from "Gehenna," Jesus' preferred word for Hell. Much like the later concept of Purgatory, Gehenna was considered a realm of a temporary sojourn for many sinners. For example, Rabbi Akiba (c. 50-135 AD) from the NT era taught that sinners stayed in Gehenna for just 12 months (Shabbat 33b). Similarly, Jesus teaches that postmortem punish might consist of "many" or "few stripes (Luke 12:47-48)," imagery that implies a finite limit and therefore ultimate release.

A finite limit is also implied in Jesus' poetic description of postmortem punishment:
"Come to terms quickly with your accuser (Satan's role in Job) while you are on your way to court with him, or the accuser may hand you over to the Judge (God), and the Judge to the guard (Hell's demons), and you will be thrown into prison (Gehenna). Truly I tell you, you will never get out of there until you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26)."

There are 5 reasons to take this as a description of punishment in Gehenna:
(1) It makes no sense if taken literally: Jesus would be crassly telling the disciple how they can beat the rap on criminal charges.
(2) More importantly, in 40 cases Jesus always uses the formula "Truly I tell you" to our relationship with God and never to a purely secular situation.
(3) Elsewhere Jesus stresses the necessity of paying off sin debts in postmortem prison (Matthew 18:34).
(4) In early Christianity Matthew 5:25-26 is always understood symbolically, never literally.
(5) thus, Luke locates this saying in an eschatological context (12:57-59).

But what about Gospel texts that speak of eternal punishment (Matthew 25:41, 46)?
No problem for 2 reasons: (1) The Aramaic "olam" and Greek "aionios" often translated "forever" can both designate a finite duration. (2) The rabbinic concept of punishment in Gehenna for a limited time acknowledges that certain categories of sinner are never retrieved from there. So the positions of both Jesus and contemporary rabbis do not endorse ultimate universal salvation, but only a purification for a limited time, much akin to the Catholic Purgatory.
(1)

Simple question for you:
If purgatory is a reality, why was Jesus' death necessary?

If nothing unclean can enter heaven, so I confess my sins, but then I still need purification, why the sacrifice of the cross?

 

[Enoch111]

This thread will focus successively on how Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John the Seer lay the foundation for the later Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

More baloney from Berserk.

 

[farouk]

Simple question for you:
If purgatory is a reality, why was Jesus' death necessary?

@GodsGrace Good point! Hebrews 1 says the Lord Jesus 'by Himself purged our sins'. This is where the true purgatory for sins happened for all who love Him and trust Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

More baloney from Berserk.

Enoch
Purgatory can be considered baloney but Berserk has put work into his post.
Catholics Do have scripture to support purgatory, even though I believe it's incorrect.

 

[farouk]

....I believe it's incorrect.

I agree with you in your reading of Scripture about the sufficiency of the purging of sins by the Lord Jesus at the Cross.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with you in your reading of Scripture about the sufficiency of the purging of sins by the Lord Jesus at the Cross.

Of course it's sufficient.
There are also ramifications for babies dying before baptism, but it gets complicated.
Jesus made it easy, simple.
Man likes to make everything complicated.

 

[farouk]

Of course it's sufficient.

@GodsGrace "It is finished" (John 19.30).

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace "It is finished" (John 19.30).

Amen.

 

[amadeus]

I agree with you in your reading of Scripture about the sufficiency of the purging of sins by the Lord Jesus at the Cross.

But Jesus did not purge the ways of men which when followed will lead them to sin again. Do not men sin after they have received the sacrifice of Jesus on their behalf? Yes, they do!

For this reason, after Jesus paid the price of sin, the Holy Spirit was sent to work on the filthy ways remaining in the hearts of men. God knows that no man can overcome the ways of men all alone. He has made a Way for whosoever will. It is a narrow way, but too many are too busy on the wide way of destruction to seek to travel along the highway of holiness.

Only overcomers may partake of the Tree of Life!

 

[farouk]

But Jesus did not purge the ways of men which when followed will lead them to sin again. Do not men sin after they have received the sacrifice of Jesus on their behalf? Yes, they do!

For this reason, after Jesus paid the price of sin, the Holy Spirit was sent to work on the filthy ways remaining in the hearts of men. God knows that no man can overcome the ways of men all alone. He has made a Way for whosoever will. It is a narrow way, but too many are too busy on the wide way of destruction to seek to travel along the highway of holiness.

Only overcomers may partake of the Tree of Life!

I do believe in the eternal security of the true child of God, Romans 8.38-39. Otherwise the work of Christ was never of any effect in the first place.

 

[farouk]

Amen.

Indeed...

 

[amadeus]

I do believe in the eternal security of the true child of God, Romans 8.38-39. Otherwise the work of Christ was never of any effect in the first place.

I am afraid there are some large holes in your understanding. But then who is not seeing now as through a glass darkly. Unlike the natural man whose eyesight diminishes with the aging process, the new man must continue to grow while time remains to him. To stand still is to stagnate which is to die. Eat His flesh and drink His blood every day.

 

[farouk]

I am afraid there are some large holes in your understanding. But then who is not seeing now as through a glass darkly. Unlike the natural man whose eyesight diminishes with the aging process, the new man must continue to grow while time remains to him. To stand still is to stagnate which is to die. Eat His flesh and drink His blood every day.

I don't believe in being saved, then lost, then saved, then lost.....

Romans 8 for example is a tremendous statement of the security of the believer founded upon the finished work of Christ, Who intercedes for and keeps His own continually.

 

[amadeus]

I don't believe in being saved, then lost, then saved, then lost.....

Romans 8 for example is a tremendous statement of the security of the believer founded upon the finished work of Christ, Who intercedes for and keeps His own continually.

So, then you must believe that God is a respecter of persons contrary to the scriptures?

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons" Acts 10:34

What did the children of Israel do in the wilderness? What did they do when they were dwelling in their new Promised Land? Is God a respecter of persons that He would give us a better promise and not expect more from us than He expected from them?

"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:" Numbers 14:22-23

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

 

[Enoch111]

Catholics Do have scripture to support for purgatory, even though I believe it's incorrect.

Since it is "incorrect" as you say (and I agree) it means that there is no Scriptural support for this fiction. Which therefore means it is pure baloney (but a great cash cow). It is a very serious matter to misinterpret Scripture and mislead people (who may be seeking the truth).

The Bible speaks of Heaven for those who are the children of God and either (a)Sheol/Hades for those who are unsaved or (b) Gehenna (Hell) for those who are finally cast into the Lake of Fire. And there is only judgment after death. If the Catholic Church would frankly admit that they have been promoting a false teaching, that could help many people leave that church and find the truth.

 

[Berserk]

Simple question for you:
If purgatory is a reality, why was Jesus' death necessary? If nothing unclean can enter heaven, so I confess my sins, but then I still need purification, why the sacrifice of the cross?

(2) THE FOUNDATION OF PURGATORY IN PAUL:

Who would not want to benefit from God's grace and spend a long time in purgative torment? Nothing unclean can enter Paradise, but can enter the lower Heavens. You wrongly assume that there is only one Heaven. Paul is taken up to "the 3rd Heaven," which he, like the Pharisees, identifies as "Paradise" (2 Cor. 12:2, 4). Paradise is of course the preferred initial destination for righteous believers (Luke 23:42-43). The location of Paradise in the 3rd Heaven implies a 1st and 2nd Heaven. Paul's agreement with 2 Enoch's location of Paradise in the 3rd Heaven (2 Enoch 8) makes the nature of the 2nd Heaven relevant to the background of Purgatory. The 2nd Heaven is described as a realm of "prisoners under guard" and the angels there ask for prayer (2 Enoch 7) just as Catholics are urged to pray for believers trapped in Purgatory.
Paul refers to such a realm in describing carnal believers whose works don't survive close scrutiny: "[They] will be saved, but only as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15). This expression does not just mean "saved by the skin of their teeth" but must be understood in terms of its meaning in Paul's time.
Ancient rabbis view Gehenna as a realm of temporary consignment during which one is saved only after a fiery purgation (for several references see Strack-Billerbeck, vol. 4, Part 2: 1043-1049). This is the background of Purgatory.

Purgatory can also be inferred from Paul's approval of proxy baptism for the unsaved dead (1 Cor. 15:29), which is part of the process whereby God ultimately becomes "everything to everyone (Greek: "panta en pasin"):"

"...so that God may be everything to everyone. Otherwise (= if God is not going to be everything to everyone), what will those people do who receive baptism in behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?"

 

[Keiw]

This thread will focus successively on how Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John the Seer lay the foundation for the later Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

[1] THE GEHENNA CONCEPT SHARED BY BOTH JESUS AND CONTEMPORARY RABBIS:

The Feast of Hanukkah celebrates Judas Maccabaeus' victories during the Maccabean revolt (175-163 BC). In one of his decisive victories, Judas defeated an army of 5,000 Arabs. Tiny idols were found in the possession of dead Jewish freedom fighters; so Judas orders prayer for Jewish casualties, who were found with tiny idols in their possession. These prayers for the dead were accompanied by sin offerings in the Temple (2 Maccabees 12:38-44)." Since Jesus attended and revered this feast (John 10:22) and so, He likely respected the prayers and sacrifices celebrated in it, He likely approved of the prayers for the military dead.

Of course, prayers for the sinful dead presume the possibility of retrieval from "Gehenna," Jesus' preferred word for Hell. Much like the later concept of Purgatory, Gehenna was considered a realm of a temporary sojourn for many sinners. For example, Rabbi Akiba (c. 50-135 AD) from the NT era taught that sinners stayed in Gehenna for just 12 months (Shabbat 33b). Similarly, Jesus teaches that postmortem punish might consist of "many" or "few stripes (Luke 12:47-48)," imagery that implies a finite limit and therefore ultimate release.

A finite limit is also implied in Jesus' poetic description of postmortem punishment:
"Come to terms quickly with your accuser (Satan's role in Job) while you are on your way to court with him, or the accuser may hand you over to the Judge (God), and the Judge to the guard (Hell's demons), and you will be thrown into prison (Gehenna). Truly I tell you, you will never get out of there until you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26)."

There are 5 reasons to take this as a description of punishment in Gehenna:
(1) It makes no sense if taken literally: Jesus would be crassly telling the disciple how they can beat the rap on criminal charges.
(2) More importantly, in 40 cases Jesus always uses the formula "Truly I tell you" to our relationship with God and never to a purely secular situation.
(3) Elsewhere Jesus stresses the necessity of paying off sin debts in postmortem prison (Matthew 18:34).
(4) In early Christianity Matthew 5:25-26 is always understood symbolically, never literally.
(5) thus, Luke locates this saying in an eschatological context (12:57-59).

But what about Gospel texts that speak of eternal punishment (Matthew 25:41, 46)?
No problem for 2 reasons: (1) The Aramaic "olam" and Greek "aionios" often translated "forever" can both designate a finite duration. (2) The rabbinic concept of punishment in Gehenna for a limited time acknowledges that certain categories of sinner are never retrieved from there. So the positions of both Jesus and contemporary rabbis do not endorse ultimate universal salvation, but only a purification for a limited time, much akin to the Catholic Purgatory.
(1)

Jesus likened death to sleep. In the OT all went to Sheol( grave) = Hades( grave) Psalmist teaches--on the day of ones death-ALL thought stops.

 

[dev553344]

Enoch
Purgatory can be considered baloney but Berserk has put work into his post.
Catholics Do have scripture to support purgatory, even though I believe it's incorrect.

Yes there is some biblical basis for purgatory. I looked into it myself. But I didn't really understand it enough to adopt it to my doctrine other than to say that Jesus released some from prison when he died. The two important scriptures point out that Jesus taught the spirits in prison. The other says he has the keys of "hell" and death.

The final scripture that relates points out that there are sins that are not unto death.

 

[GodsGrace]

(2) THE FOUNDATION OF PURGATORY IN PAUL:

Who would not want to benefit from God's grace and spend a long time in purgative torment? Nothing unclean can enter Paradise, but can enter the lower Heavens. You wrongly assume that there is only one Heaven. Paul is taken up to "the 3rd Heaven," which he, like the Pharisees, identifies as "Paradise" (2 Cor. 12:2, 4). Paradise is of course the preferred initial destination for righteous believers (Luke 23:42-43). The location of Paradise in the 3rd Heaven implies a 1st and 2nd Heaven. Paul's agreement with 2 Enoch's location of Paradise in the 3rd Heaven (2 Enoch 8) makes the nature of the 2nd Heaven relevant to the background of Purgatory. The 2nd Heaven is described as a realm of "prisoners under guard" and the angels there ask for prayer (2 Enoch 7) just as Catholics are urged to pray for believers trapped in Purgatory.
Paul refers to such a realm in describing carnal believers whose works don't survive close scrutiny: "[They] will be saved, but only as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15). This expression does not just mean "saved by the skin of their teeth" but must be understood in terms of its meaning in Paul's time.
Ancient rabbis view Gehenna as a realm of temporary consignment during which one is saved only after a fiery purgation (for several references see Strack-Billerbeck, vol. 4, Part 2: 1043-1049). This is the background of Purgatory.

Purgatory can also be inferred from Paul's approval of proxy baptism for the unsaved dead (1 Cor. 15:29), which is part of the process whereby God ultimately becomes "everything to everyone (Greek: "panta en pasin"):"

"...so that God may be everything to everyone. Otherwise (= if God is not going to be everything to everyone), what will those people do who receive baptism in behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?"

I don't understand your last sentence at all.
How are people baptized on behalf of the dead? (1 cor 15:29)

Do you believe that purgatory is one of the 3 heavens?

As purgatory has been taught until very recently, it is nothing like heaven at all.
It still had fire and all the terrible things of hell...this was necessary for the purging.

Recently purgatory has been made to be much softer.
Also, there is no time frame given for the amount of time spent there...this must be because the CC
correctly knows that there is NO TIME after death since we go to eternity...there is no time frame in eternity.

The fact that the idea did not even come about till about the 800's, or even later, tells me it was not present at the time of the Apostles or of the Apostolic Fathers or Early Church Fathers.

The verses in 1 cor 3:15 are used by the CC as support...but the meaning is really misunderstood by most of us.
It's not referring to our works at all, but the work of ministers.