The 'blessed virgin Mary'

[robert derrick]

I see so to you Christ was not always God

I was talking of the natural born mother, not the begotten Son.

The true God became flesh and has been called the Son of God since. His name is Jesus. The Word was with God and was God in the beginning when God made the heaven and the earth.

No, I am neither a Oneness Christian, nor a unitarian pagan.

 

[robert derrick]

The different members here will have different interpretations of scripture. I don't agree with your assessment of Mary. And for the resurrection there is also the good and evil glories beyond the glory of the stars, sun and moon. but maybe this is part of that differing glories:

John 5:22 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

I once spoke with Mormon who said all souls are on a path to Christ, and even after the 'figurative' lake of fire, they who still reject Him will be given a little glory.

You're not one of those mystified dreamers are you?

When people depart from plain and simple Scripture and go off into far away dreamland, I cease to give them any credit.

The only resurrection of damnation that will have anything to do with the eternal heavens is this:

"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever." (Jude)

So, if a damned wandering star in black darkness for ever is a differing glory to you, then so be it. But I don't consider there to be any glory whatsoever in that.

As I said, I'll look at differing glories as pertaining to glorified saints. But black darkness ain't one of them. That's for sure.

 

[robert derrick]

Justified...if you are a Protestant Fundamentalist....the divine events concerning God and humanity after the biblical era is not something that you need to be concerned with. For a Fundamentalist to consider the next 2000 years of a very active God would violate the concept of Fundamentalism. I am not going to hold that against you, that is part of the Fundamentalist concept. But really should you be commenting on something that is against your religion. That is if you are a fundamentalist. There are people that are cessationists that do not believe in the miracles and divine events after the biblical era. Since I believe in freedom of religion I stand and worship with such.

But it is one of many reasons I am not a Fundamentalist. I know the history of Miriam and I have seen her and talked with her. I have seen her miracles. My son and I have been witnesses to the miracles of the Holy Spirit. An an Angel appeared to me to warn me that my mother was dying over 200 miles away.

Faith without any interaction with God is a strength in its own. I am sorry. I cannot convey the difference that miracles have made in my life.

I am not a protestant fundamentalist. The only reason that term has ever been used, is because Catholic fundamentalists hijacked the faith of Jesus away from the apostles, to their own pontificating surrealism.
I do not deny healings, miracles, revelations, inspirations of God of any sort. Nothing is impossible with God.

And so. what does that have to do with Mary being cultized into a heavenly Mother of God? Do you mean miracles by around statues of Mary?

Who is Miriam? You certainly don't mean the sister of Aaron?

And an angle appearing to you to warn you of your mother's death is just fine. Thank God for it.

Look folks, so long as it does not conflict with Scripture, believe whatever you want and experience whatever comes your way. So long as Jesus is the Christ, and Him only do you serve. Good to go.

The point is I don't need to see miracles, angels, etc... I know for a fact that God is true and Jesus is true, because the Bible is true, without contradiction nor error nor lie. And if that is why I don't see angels, then so be it. I live by the faith of Jesus, not by the sight of angels.

 

[robert derrick]

"Faith without any interaction with God is a strength in its own."

That is called 'will worship'. (Col 2) One gets so good at living by discipline, that they begin to worship their own will, as that of higher power with angelic beings. It is devilish, and born of the prince and power of the air.

However, to have no need of visible miracles and sighted angels is merely Scripture: "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

My 'interaction' with God is prayer and communion of His Spirit. I know Him, the Lord Jesus personally. Mayhaps that is why I am not interested in visiting angles. After all, when you have the Lord Himself to commune with, what need is there of lesser created begins to 'interact' with?

I guess I ought be feeling sorry for you people. If you don't personally know and commune with the Lord God Almighty on a daily basis, then I suppose angels and mystical Mary is comforting to you.

And Mary is still not the everlasting Mother of the Lord in heaven. Period. I am not trying to harm your weak conscience, but rather to suggest you grow up in the faith of Jesus.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I am not a protestant fundamentalist. The only reason that term has ever been used, is because Catholic fundamentalists hijacked the faith of Jesus away from the apostles, to their own pontificating surrealism.
I do not deny healings, miracles, revelations, inspirations of God of any sort. Nothing is impossible with God.

And so. what does that have to do with Mary being cultized into a heavenly Mother of God? Do you mean miracles by around statues of Mary?

Who is Miriam? You certainly don't mean the sister of Aaron?

And an angle appearing to you to warn you of your mother's death is just fine. Thank God for it.

Look folks, so long as it does not conflict with Scripture, believe whatever you want and experience whatever comes your way. So long as Jesus is the Christ, and Him only do you serve. Good to go.

The point is I don't need to see miracles, angels, etc... I know for a fact that God is true and Jesus is true, because the Bible is true, without contradiction nor error nor lie. And if that is why I don't see angels, then so be it. I live by the faith of Jesus, not by the sight of angels.

I have had an Angel appear to me as well. A messenger angel...and they carry out God's Will in our lives...
I have to ask why the Catholic doctrine of faith is something you single out to rebuke....is there a church today that continues with the teaching of the original church at Antioch? The 1st split happened 1000 years after the original 12 Apostles died...and it has been splitting ever since. Today there is over 40k Christian Church denominations preaching the Bible....according to their doctrine of faith...
I asked God one time why are there so many different denominations of faith? His answer is because man began to disagree on interpretation and on how to worship and so the church would split to form their own church with their interpretation as their doctrine of faith. None of them preach the whole truth...but He said He is restoring His Church again in these last days and it will function according to how He purposed it to and all doctrines of man will be set aside.
So the Catholics pray to Mary, the Mormons believe Joseph Smith is a true prophet, the 7th Day Advents believe Saturday is the Sabbath, the Pentecosts believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...and on and on and on...
And all of them have some of the truth but none of them have the whole truth of God's Word being taught and the Power of the Holy Spirit being manifested.
So let's call it a draw and just focus on Jesus.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I see so to you Christ was not always God

Christ was not always God incarnate, not always the Word made flesh to dwell amongst humankind as a man.

 

[robert derrick]

I have had an Angel appear to me as well. A messenger angel...and they carry out God's Will in our lives...
I have to ask why the Catholic doctrine of faith is something you single out to rebuke....is there a church today that continues with the teaching of the original church at Antioch? The 1st split happened 1000 years after the original 12 Apostles died...and it has been splitting ever since. Today there is over 40k Christian Church denominations preaching the Bible....according to their doctrine of faith...
I asked God one time why are there so many different denominations of faith? His answer is because man began to disagree on interpretation and on how to worship and so the church would split to form their own church with their interpretation as their doctrine of faith. None of them preach the whole truth...but He said He is restoring His Church again in these last days and it will function according to how He purposed it to and all doctrines of man will be set aside.
So the Catholics pray to Mary, the Mormons believe Joseph Smith is a true prophet, the 7th Day Advents believe Saturday is the Sabbath, the Pentecosts believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...and on and on and on...
And all of them have some of the truth but none of them have the whole truth of God's Word being taught and the Power of the Holy Spirit being manifested.
So let's call it a draw and just focus on Jesus.

"I have to ask why the Catholic doctrine of faith is something you single out to rebuke."

I don't. I only refute that the blessed virgin Mary stuff is a myth, except in that all saints in the presence of the Lord are blessed virgins. (You have not even tried to respond to that Scriptural fact).

And frankly I am not trying to burst your Mary bubble. If you don't want to be of full growth in the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, that is fine.

And if you want to worship Mary as some sort of Queen or Mother in heaven, go ahead. It gets you nowhere with Mary nor with the Lord Jesus. If it makes you feel good, then go ahead. A cold beer on on hot day makes me feel good, but I don't have to try and deify Madam Bud Light.

And no, it is not a 'draw'. A draw implies something of significance. That hasn't happened here. I have not yet learned how to focus on Jesus without taking His Word seriously.

"And all of them have some of the truth but none of them have the whole truth of God's Word."

That is the final words of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about and only believe something, because they want to believe it. Which is perfectly fine by me. Believe whatever you want. And since you are not a serious person of Scripture, then you are right. I have no more time with you.

Yeah, I know I am a mean guy. But, I put my heart and soul into the Scriptures, and when I find someone trying to say something about God's Word is only a part-time and superficial participant. I, well, get disappointed. It's sort of like trying to play tennis with someone that doesn't even know which way to hold the racket. I guess any way works some of the time, and no way works all of the time. Sort of like knowing God's Word. Everyone is right in some way and no one is right all the way.

So Luke was just braggadocios when he dared to claim to have had perfect understanding from the first...(Luke 1)

 

[marksman]

I have no objection to referring to Mary as the blessed virgin Mary, because every saint in Christ Jesus presented to the Lord, shall be a blessed and chaste virgin (2 Cor 11:2).

All that abide in Christ therefore can be fairly addressed as the blessed virgin 'so and so'.

The only One in heaven that is and ever shall be noticeably and visibly distinct from all others is Jesus, who stands as a slain Lamb in the midst of the throne(Rev 5), i.e. the prints and marks of His crucifixion shall remain in His resurrected body for all to see, as a perpetual reminder of His cross.

Other than Himself, the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, aside from Judas and including Paul, shall be specially remembered in the foundation stones of heavenly New Jerusalem, having their names written in them. Likewise the names of the 12 tribes of Israel shall be remembered by being written on the gates of the that City.

Other than these examples, I see no other blessed saint with Jesus in heaven that is recognized by God as 'special' to Himself and His ministry. None shall be better or worse, higher or lower, honored more or less, nor specially named than any other...

Does anyone know why believers in Jesus are so intent on falsely making Mary a 'perpetual' virgin on earth after she gave birth to Jesus? I know it is a false teaching and woefully vain worshipping, but my question is why?

My wife is not a virgin. She has born two children.

 

[dev553344]

I once spoke with Mormon who said all souls are on a path to Christ, and even after the 'figurative' lake of fire, they who still reject Him will be given a little glory.

You're not one of those mystified dreamers are you?

When people depart from plain and simple Scripture and go off into far away dreamland, I cease to give them any credit.

The only resurrection of damnation that will have anything to do with the eternal heavens is this:

"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever." (Jude)

So, if a damned wandering star in black darkness for ever is a differing glory to you, then so be it. But I don't consider there to be any glory whatsoever in that.

As I said, I'll look at differing glories as pertaining to glorified saints. But black darkness ain't one of them. That's for sure.

Potential debasement noted.

 

[Illuminator]

The word “worship” has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods; it means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term “worship” has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This can lead to confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term “worship” was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.
(dulia and hyperdulia is both of the same kind)
Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, “We adore God but we honor his saints.”

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently assert that Catholics “worship” Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call “worship”—is to be given only to God.

Many non-Catholics may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

This is in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term “worship” was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: “‘Behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’”

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: “Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8).” And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: “Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent.”

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.

Saint Worship? | Catholic Answers

"...but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God..." "Mary worship" is another anti-Catholic myth. Hyperdulia and latria are as far as the east is from the west.

 

[Grailhunter]

I am not a protestant fundamentalist. The only reason that term has ever been used, is because Catholic fundamentalists hijacked the faith of Jesus away from the apostles, to their own pontificating surrealism.

Strange term....hijacked....with that reasoning we can say that the Protestants took 1500 years to show any interest in Christianity and when they did, they could not figure what the Bible meant......30,000 denominations equals 30,000 attempts to understand the Bible. If you are a church of "one" independently attempting to understand the Bible, you are one in several million. Which is all said tongue in cheek because of your term, hijacked is very inaccurate.

And so. what does that have to do with Mary being cultized into a heavenly Mother of God? Do you mean miracles by around statues of Mary?

I am talking about all the miracles associated with Miriam and not necessary from the Catholic perspective.
Mother of God....would Mother of a God make it better.

Who is Miriam? You certainly don't mean the sister of Aaron?

I am a stickler on names. Christ's mother's name was Miriam....when the Christian texts were translated to Latin, her name was changed to Maria because in Hebrew the name Miriam means rebellion and they did not think that was an appropriate name for Christ's mother. And then from there to the English name Mary. And by the way the letter J came out in 1400 ad and was not commonly used until 1600 ad. For example the first publications of the King James Version used the Greek name for Christ. No one's name in the Bible can start with a J because the letter J was not around so so so the Hebrew and Greek languages did not have any j's...all Y's.

The point is I don't need to see miracles, angels, etc... I know for a fact that God is true and Jesus is true, because the Bible is true, without contradiction nor error nor lie. And if that is why I don't see angels, then so be it. I live by the faith of Jesus, not by the sight of angels.

I have made that point, what greater faith that some one believes without seeing or experiencing.

 

[Grailhunter]

"Faith without any interaction with God is a strength in its own."

That is called 'will worship'. (Col 2) One gets so good at living by discipline, that they begin to worship their own will, as that of higher power with angelic beings. It is devilish, and born of the prince and power of the air.

However, to have no need of visible miracles and sighted angels is merely Scripture: "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

My 'interaction' with God is prayer and communion of His Spirit. I know Him, the Lord Jesus personally. Mayhaps that is why I am not interested in visiting angles. After all, when you have the Lord Himself to commune with, what need is there of lesser created begins to 'interact' with?

I guess I ought be feeling sorry for you people. If you don't personally know and commune with the Lord God Almighty on a daily basis, then I suppose angels and mystical Mary is comforting to you.

And Mary is still not the everlasting Mother of the Lord in heaven. Period. I am not trying to harm your weak conscience, but rather to suggest you grow up in the faith of Jesus.

I am assuming this is to me. faith without seeing...I will repeat...I have made that point, what greater faith that some one believes without seeing or experiencing.

As far as Miriam, I do not expect you to believe in her or any miracle outside of the Bible.

 

[Grailhunter]

And frankly I am not trying to burst your Mary bubble. If you don't want to be of full growth in the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, that is fine.

So you insult her faith......that is a mistake! So only yours is full growth....careful!
The fundamentalist view is fine with me....I understand the history of it all.
But to reach out and criticize others that know more of God than the first 65 years, is not that intelligent either.

 

[Grailhunter]

The word “worship” has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods; it means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term “worship” has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This can lead to confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term “worship” was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.
(dulia and hyperdulia is both of the same kind)
Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, “We adore God but we honor his saints.”

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently assert that Catholics “worship” Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call “worship”—is to be given only to God.

Many non-Catholics may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

This is in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term “worship” was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: “‘Behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’”

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: “Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8).” And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: “Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent.”

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.

Saint Worship? | Catholic Answers

"...but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God..." "Mary worship" is another anti-Catholic myth. Hyperdulia and latria are as far as the east is from the west.

Hey good job on the word study.
My views of the Catholic Church is like doing a high wire act without a net.
I fellowship and worship with the Catholics in the pews....and worship Mary? Yes I say my Hail Mary's. I do not have a lot of use for the Catholic Church administration above the local priest.
Protestants should not hate the Catholics in the pews. But there was a good reason for the Protestant reform, the sins and atrocities of the Catholic Church are mind boggling. So the Catholics should not blame the Protestants for breaking away from the Church....If anything they should have a little mercy on them....Taking custody of the Bible was like grabbing a tiger by the tail and hanging on for dear life. They are still trying to figure it out. Not that the Catholics figured it out, they just made rulings on it.

 

[Gary Urban]

OK, I'll invest a little effort here: Mary not only met Jesus in person which none of us have, and not only was she family, but she cared for Jesus when he was a vulnerable child and honored God the Father as Jesus' mother. That makes her special in history, out of everyone God could have chose for that he chose Mary. He didn't choose us for such a great calling so I think we can show some respect where it is due.

Our dear blessed sister in the Lord, Mary's respect as far as honor (a little weight) yes. Worshiped as the queen of heaven queen of mercy. . A whole other doctrine

Bottom line there is a difference between the things of men seen as one source of faith (false) and the things of God another source the true source of faith, the faith of God or called labor of love that worked in the the Son of man Jesus . Satan would have mankind believe it is all one and the same, or what you see is what you get.

The doctrine of God must be searched out to end of the matter .Mathew 16 does not end with verse 18.

Mathew 16: 22-23 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter was forgiven for his "blasphemy"against Jesus the Son of man, the chief apostle sent by the Father. Jesus was given words from the Father not the thoughts of the Son of man to rebuke the father of lies Satan. The Son of man had not power to rebuke it is the lord and unseen master that alone does

Our heavenly Father saying to the lying spirit that worked in Peter in effect walk by faith the unseen eternal. . get behind me not temporal faithless mankind seen.

 

[Mungo]

Mary was highly favored by God. I think this is why it is another way of saying this in calling her the blessed virgin,meaning unmarried, Mary.

However she is not coredemptrix, as is taught by the Catholic church.

The catholic Church does not teach that Mary is coredemptrix.
There are some in the Catholic Church that would like to give her that title but the Catholic Church has not adopted it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The comparison of Mary to the Ark of the Covenant, which was also not to be handled or defiled by the hands of man.

So this is more of the defilement by sex argument in Rev 14? Exactly how is it that a husband or wife are defiled by one flesh sex together in the marriage bed, that is undefiled and honorable before God? (Heb 13)

I think the blessed virgin Mary worshippers have a hang up about sex. Maybe because even with a married spouse, they think they are doing a 'dirty deed'.

Sorry. I forgot. You don't worship- the eternally and perpetually Virgin Mary, who never ever had sex with Joseph her husband. You just sort of idolize her.

I have absolutely nothing against our fellow believers in the common faith of Jesus (Jude 1), whether Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, etc... It's the completely unnecessary mysticism and idolatry that Scripture, and therefore I, object to.

Charitable enough?

And exactly how is it that simply touching a box (the Ark) "defiles" it?
Uzzah was simply trying to keep it from falling and was struck DEAD (2 Sam. 6:7). God will do as HE wills - not YOU.

Mary IS the fulfillment of the Ark, as we see in the following, undisputable Scriptural comparisons of Type & Fulfillment below.
OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) who carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the Word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

Augustine, speaking with the wisdom of the Early Church Fathers, wrote that the “New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is revealed in the New”. This statement means that unless one understands the Old Testament, one cannot understand the New Testament.
apparently, YOU don't.

 

[rstrats]

First of all - where Scripture is concerned, Mary's Perpetual virginity is based on:1. The fact that Mary, herself, gave her intention to the Angel to remain a virgin in Luke 1:34.

Luke 1:34 - "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" Where does that say anything about Mary always remaining a virgin?

 

[Grailhunter]

Funny speculation
I was talking to a preacher about heaven, a fireside chat at church camp. What is heaven like...? Probably because I mentioned something about the banquet. He says it is all a metaphor because there will be no hunger in heaven, so no food. So I replied, No toilets in heaven? He says, No and we both laughed. So the topic continues....no beds, because no one will be tired. No televisions, no radio stations, no rock n' roll or country music, no sports, no hunting, no boats or water skiing, Of course no girl friending....ya no what I mean. No sadness in heaven because there will be no emotions in heaven, no sadness and no happiness. The list went on and on until he was speculating if we would have the sense of touch.

So I am sitting there nodding my head and chuckling as he finished....And then I piped up with....So whatz hell like? Obviously a lot of barbequing....Do you think they will be serving any of it up? LOL Just so you know I do not agree with him.

But looking at what we are kind of talking about here....connections with Miriam and the Apostles. What would they be doing? What will we be doing? In the cartoons when Elmer Fudd bites the dust, he is in heaven with a bunch of clouds and has halo and he is playing a harp and sitting on a cloud. eternity....floating around....with a harp? LOL

So what are we going to be doing? For eternity? Many look at Miriam and the Apostles as being dead, not considering that God might have a use for some and they would be in heaven. But then what if it is not just Miriam and the Apostles and he "recruits" a few of us. And then after Judgment Day, will we have assignments? Or just lay around on clouds? I get bored easy so I would probably ask if there something I can do. Of course I have a fully functioning imagination so I could go on and on about this.

But when you get down to it, the Catholics I know more or less look at Miriam and the Apostles as having divine Jobs. A job because Miriam is not always in the most comfortable of situations. She appears in war torn areas saving children. The military is full of stories of a mysterious lady coming to the aid. Jet fighters landing with one whole wing missing....commercial flights traveling 600 miles with no engines and landing safely. I am wondering if that is how the character Wonder Woman got imagined? In Iraq I was moving my squad down a corridor and there she was pointing the way. We turned left down the steps...a couple seconds later an RPG hit the other set of step on the other side.

So whatever we think is happing now or in the future on the spiritual side of things is from our perspective merely speculation. I speculate that heaven is a pretty busy place and people have interactions with the divine all the time....that is just me.

 

[Heart2Soul]

"I have to ask why the Catholic doctrine of faith is something you single out to rebuke."

I don't. I only refute that the blessed virgin Mary stuff is a myth, except in that all saints in the presence of the Lord are blessed virgins. (You have not even tried to respond to that Scriptural fact).

And frankly I am not trying to burst your Mary bubble. If you don't want to be of full growth in the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, that is fine.

And if you want to worship Mary as some sort of Queen or Mother in heaven, go ahead. It gets you nowhere with Mary nor with the Lord Jesus. If it makes you feel good, then go ahead. A cold beer on on hot day makes me feel good, but I don't have to try and deify Madam Bud Light.

And no, it is not a 'draw'. A draw implies something of significance. That hasn't happened here. I have not yet learned how to focus on Jesus without taking His Word seriously.

"And all of them have some of the truth but none of them have the whole truth of God's Word."

That is the final words of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about and only believe something, because they want to believe it. Which is perfectly fine by me. Believe whatever you want. And since you are not a serious person of Scripture, then you are right. I have no more time with you.

Yeah, I know I am a mean guy. But, I put my heart and soul into the Scriptures, and when I find someone trying to say something about God's Word is only a part-time and superficial participant. I, well, get disappointed. It's sort of like trying to play tennis with someone that doesn't even know which way to hold the racket. I guess any way works some of the time, and no way works all of the time. Sort of like knowing God's Word. Everyone is right in some way and no one is right all the way.

So Luke was just braggadocios when he dared to claim to have had perfect understanding from the first...(Luke 1)

I am not of the Catholic faith and was not defending Mary....
I simply trying to understand how people get so bound up in attacking others doctrine.
I trust the Word of God to be powerful enough to bring those who seek Him to the truth by the Holy Spirit.

You have formed a highly judgmental opinion of me...
"That is the final words of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about and only believe something, because they want to believe it. Which is perfectly fine by me. Believe whatever you want. And since you are not a serious person of Scripture, then you are right. I have no more time with you."

What I shared is what I heard Him say...I will not lie concerning Him...and I can assure you, I am a very serious person of God's Word.
You are welcome to agree or disagree with it....
You are not allowed to flame, goad, harass, attack personally any member of the forum....
And there have been numerous threads started about Mary or the Catholic church before you came...this is a topic that never has a conclusion and always ends up disastrous... causing strife and division.
And ends up being closed...
Either peacefully share your understanding without the false accusations/assumptions and the attacks against others or don't share...
That is simple enough.