BreadOfLife
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MY mistake.
It was post #694.
There have bee multiple denials since that post - but not a SINGLE Scriptural refutation.
The 'blessed virgin Mary'
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It was post #694.
There have bee multiple denials since that post - but not a SINGLE Scriptural refutation.
Eternally Grateful
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Dude you need to learn to read. NOTHING I said in my argument had anything to do with the FLESH being eternal
I NEVER SAID ANYONE DID
THE EUCHARIST DOES NOT GIVE ANYONE ETERNAL LIFE SPIRITUALLY. IF IT DID, THEY WOULD NEVER DIE (SPIRITUALLY)
IT DOES NOT QUENCH ANYONES SPIRITUAL HUNGER SO THEY NEVER HUNGER AGAIN? IF IT DID THEY WOULD NOT NEED TO TAKE IT WEEK AFTER WEEK!
That was Jesus whole point, in the very begining
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
1. They were fed the day before
2. That food was not enduring. So they were hungry again, For this reason, they came to seek Jesus SO THEY COULD BE FED AGAIN and BE FILLED AGAIN.
3. Jesus told them not to work hard for this food. Which dies. But to see the food which Jesus came to give them The food WHICH ENDURED FOREVER (one can eat and be filled and stay filled. Never to be hungry or thirst again, They would never die and they would live forever)
The Eucharist does not provide this. It is no better than Manna or the food jesus fed the 5000 with. IT PERISHES causing people to return to mass SO THEY CAN FEED AGAIN< because the previous weeks food DIED.
Wake up man. I beg of you to walk up and find the REAL FOOD which endures forever.
Nor have you shown any proof that your theory of type/antitype has to be the case here.
So again, other than Galatians 4:4 saying that the Messiah was born of a woman, why do you suppose Mary is not mentioned by any of the writers in the New Testament epistles including the one to Rome and the 2 by Peter? Why do you suppose that they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to include any of the dogmas, including the one about Mary being the Ark of the covenant mentioned in Revelation if she is intended to be such a vital part of the Roman/Latin Rite Catholic organization's theology?
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BreadOfLife
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You could say the very SAME thig about the Trinity - yet this is the most BASIC tenet of the Christian faith.
I challenged ANYONE to give a reasoned Scriptural rebuttal of the Scriptural argument I made in post #694.
Your response is yet another dodge.
BreadOfLife
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And apparently, YOU don't read your own posts.
In post #790 - YOU stated the following when trying to discredit the promises related to the Eucharist:
1 would never hunger and thirst vs 35
7. Will eat and not die. Vs 50
8. Will eat and live forever vs 51
10. Whoever eats will live forever vs 58
Then, in the text above in RED - you stated:
1. They were fed the day before
2. That food was not enduring. So they were hungry again, For this reason, they came to seek Jesus SO THEY COULD BE FED AGAIN and BE FILLED AGAIN.
3. Jesus told them not to work hard for this food. Which dies. But to see the food which Jesus came to give them The food WHICH ENDURED FOREVER (one can eat and be filled and stay filled. Never to be hungry or thirst again, They would never die and they would live forever)
You are speaking about the FLESCH because you lack the faith to believe what Jesus said about the SPIRIT.
Eternally Grateful
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Lol. You see only what you want tosee
Who has lived forever? Who has eaten the flesh and blood of jesus and lived forever? Last I read all of the disciples are dead. And they ate the flesh that gives eternal life.
Yet you want to misrepresent what I said to continue believing in this Eucharist you take weekly. Yet does not give anyone who eats it eternal life.
It either does nt give them any life whatsoever.
Or that life it does give, can be lost and they can die again.
If thats what you want to eat. All the best to you my friend.
I ate the bread from heaven over 40 years ago. And I am still alive and I will live forever (spiritually I better add that word before you accuse me falsly again)
BreadOfLife
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Your question above in RED - tragic and ignorant as it is - pretty much sums up your complete failure to grasp the Gospel message and shows a total lack of faith.
So, because YOU can't see those in Heaven - you reject the idea that they are there based on the promises of Christ? That's really pathetic.
Finally - you claim to have "eaten" the Bread from Heaven 40 years ago.
Unless it was the Eucharist - you didn't . . .
"This IS my my Body."
"This IS my blood."
Luke 22:19–20; Matt. 26:26–28; Mark 14:22–24; 1 Cor. 11:23–25
Not ONCE did He ever say. "This is just A SUMBOL."
PS - This is a thread about Mary = so take this subject to a different thread and stop hijacking this one.
Eternally Grateful
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My faith is in christ
Yours is in some Eucharistic pagan ritual.
I KNOW I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE bases on what I ate.
Your still HOPING you will have eternal life based on what you eat continually.
BreadOfLife
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You actually believe that the Bread of Life is just "words:??
Jesus said, "I AM the Bread of Life"- and He is FAR MORE than "just words". He is the Lamb of God - the FULFILLMENT of the Passover Lamb that was fully consumed. He told the crowd, "My flesh is TRUE FOOD and my blood is TRUE DRINK" (John 6:55).
NOWHERE did He say, "My flesh is words" and "My blood is words."
Tell me something - if Jesus wasn't talking about the Eucharist - WHY did the entire Church unanimously believe in and practice the Eucharist.
I'm NOT talking about a few deranged, fallen away Christians - but the ENTIRE Church.
The Romans and Jews even went so far as to refer to them as "Cannibals" for this belief that they were willing to be butchered and fed to wild animals for.
Was the ENTIRE Church and MOST of the early Reformers "Wrong" about this belief. Was John Calvin the FIRST genius who figured out that this was all a "lie"?
You won't find a SINGLE Early Christian writing denouncing the Eucharist.
they ALL believed it to be the BODY, BLOOD, SOUL and DIVINITY of Jesus Christ.
Ignatius of Antioch
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these, but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood) from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported) how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life — flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord and is in fact a member of him? (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 189]).
Clement of Alexandria
"Eat my flesh)" [Jesus] says, "and drink my blood." The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).
Aphraahat
After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With His own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).
Ambrose of Milan
Perhaps you may be saying, "I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?" It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]).
Augustine
That bread which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God is the body of Christ, That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).
What you see is the bread and the chalice, that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith, yet faith does not desire instruction (ibid. 272).
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
John 6:
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
I believe Jesus. Not men.
You keep ignoring the fact the Eucharist does not give anyone what Jesus promised. People eat the eucharist weakly. yet according to your church still may end up dieing spiritually in the end.
If you want to convince me. That is where you will have to go.
BreadOfLife
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63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
This does NOT mean:
"What I am saying to you is purely symbolic."
It means:
"What I am telling you can ONLY be understood by those who have the Spirit of God."
That's why He told the crowd:
John 3:65
“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
Of COURSE it is the Spirit that gives life. Bread and Wine won't do that - unless they have been transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, per HIS instructions (Luke 22:19–20; Matt. 26:26–28; Mark 14:22–24; 1 Cor. 11:23–25).
As to your evasive comment above in RED - I didn't ask you if you believed in Jesus.
I asked you if you actually believe that the ENTIRE Early Church was wrong about the Eucharist, making them idolators who are probably in Hell.
As to your 2nd comment in RED - NOTHING in Scripture is a guarantee that you will NEVER lose your salvation.
We are warned over and over and over that we can LOSE our secure position and be lost - by our OWN doing.
The false idea that we have "Eternal" security and there is "nothing" we can do to lose out salvation is a Protestant perversion that was invented by your scrupulous Protestant Fathers in the 16th century.
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?
Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .
1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.
1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.
Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.
Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Again
Nothing you post helps your case
PROVE TO ME that those who take the Eucharist will
Never hunger or thirst (they take it weekly)
Wil live forever (spiritually speaking, we who are dead have been raised to life.)
Will never die (eternal life never ending)
Will be raise by Christ. Not delivered to him for judgement
Will live as long as he lives
If you can not prove this to me. Then nothing else you say is meaningful. You have basically proven my point for me.
Anyway concerning this post.
Jesus said the bread gives life
He said the flesh and blood he gives gives life
He said the words he speaks from the spirit give life
And peter said he has the words that give life
The gospel man. What is the gospel? The cross.. When you eat the words of the gospel. You have eaten his flesh and blood. And if you come to faith because you gnawed and chewed on the word. And not just merely believed in it. You are saved.
BreadOfLife
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And therein lies your confusion.
If you think that the Eucharist - or your faith is some kind of "magical pill" that will render you "unable" yo lose your security - then you DON'T know Christ nor do you understand the Gospel.
Eternal Security is a false, man-made invention of your scrupulous Protestant Fathers in the 16th century. the Bible teaches us that only those who DO the Father's will (Matt. 7:21) and REMAIN FAITHFUL (Matt. 24:13) will be saved. Professing faith in Christ or receiving the Eucharist will not keep you saved without YOUR cooperation.
The Church doesn't teach that you can receive the Eucharist - then proceed to live as sinful a life as you wish. NOR does the Bible teach that you can profess to be a follower of Christ and do the same.
Both the Church and the Bible DO teach, however that the Body and Blood of Christ are REAL food (John 6:55) and not "just words" as YOU claim - and BOTH have been teaching this for TWO THOUSAND years . . .
Eternally Grateful
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No I do not think that at all. I know the Eucharist does not give us security
Thats YOUR PROBLEM. Jesus said the bread of heaven or his flesh and blood DOES give is that security
Thats why I know the Eucharist is NOT the flesh of John 6. Because it does not give the people what jesus promised.
Eternal security is Gods promise. Its not man made.
You want to earn your salvation. Your no better than the jews who crucified Christ because they did not like his message either.
Well good luck with that. You will be right their with them unless you repent and give your eternity to Christ and stop tryign to earn it with all your deeds
Illuminator
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It does, when received with proper disposition.
Eternal security was invented by John Calvin in the 16th century. We are assured of our salvation after we are dead and with God, not before.
Sheer nonsense. Nobody can earn salvation and good deeds to earn salvation is a heresy. This LIE has been exposed a thousand times on this board but you keep committing it.
BreadOfLife
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That's finny - IF Eternal Security is "God's promise" and a Biblical concept, WHY is it that YOU could NOT refute or even address ANY of the nine or so Biblical passages I presented in post #801 that DEBINK this man-mad fallacy??
A promise from God himself should be EASY to prove and should be a breeze to harmonize with those 9 passages.
WHY is it that you can't?
Eternally Grateful
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Then why do you take it every week. What makes that different than Manna which the fathers ate and are dead?
Eternal life is taught in scripture. It is achieved by grace through faith. and if it can be lost. its not eternal. We would call that conditional life.
Conditional life was held my many, The jews mastered it with all their laws. and sadly the church fell into the same trap of people trying to earn salvation by their works of righteous. not by Gods mercy.
Jesus said whoever ate will never hunger or thirst. Never die, Live forever. HAS eternal life. and will be raised by him.
Why do you not believe what Jesus said?
Your right no one can earn salvation. so why do so many churches teach that people must earn salvation by their deeds?
Eternally Grateful
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lol.. I dod not read them. I asked you to show why the eucharist did not give all what God promised. and you have yet to do this.
and by the way. What did John say we base our hope and faith in?
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
You see. I can not KNOW I have eternal life if that life is conditional and can be lost
Also as said plainly. the reason we can continue to believe is that we have the knowledge our eternity is secure.
The eucharist does not give people security. if it did they would not continue to eat it to get eternal llife that God said through John we HAVE.
BreadOfLife
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EXAVTLY.
You didn't read them because you were afraid to - because they debunk your entire man-made "Eternal Security: fallacy.
As to the verse you presented as "proof" of this Protestant invention (1 John 5:13) - it DOESN'T guarantee anything - UNLESS one remains faithful:
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
We must believe and continue to believe in Him in order to have eternal life.
James warns us that even the DEMONS believe in the truths about God yet are NOT saved (James 2:19).
As I showed you in a previous post - the BIBLICAL definition of what it means to "believe" in Christ involves our cooperation and obedience:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)
If you DON'T cooperate with God by DOING His will - you cannot HOPE to be saved (Matt. 7:21).
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Nope. they do not debunk anything
baptism of the spirit is what saved. Not baptism in water
Picking our cross daily is how we achieve sanctification. Not salvation
Work of mercy and charity will gain is rewards not only in heaven, but in this life
Obeying his commands is impossible for a person who is lost. It is possible fior a child of God, although they will still fall short of the glory of God and will not save you
Doing the will of the father is what believers do. And they are blessed in what they do. But obeying the gospel is first and foremost. Apart from this which no one will be saved
Suffering with Christ is a privilege and an honor. and a priviledge, and will help us grow in oure faith. But it will nto help in our salvation
The penalty of sin is death, the gift of God is life.
Its no being baptised, Picking up a cross, Doing good workd, obeying commands, doing the will of the father (except the gospel) and suffering.
if we could get saved by doing these things, Christ died in vein, and we are saved by works, not grace through faith.
either way, Thank you so very much for proving you trust on your works to save you. Not in Christ.
