The 'blessed virgin Mary'

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Gary Urban

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Unbiblical nonsense.

First of all - the Word was GOD (John 1:1).
The Word (GOD) became flesh (John 1:14).
YOUR rejection of God's word is noted . . .

Secondly -
John 16:12-15

“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.


This correlates DIRECTLY to my response to you in post #164, which apparently stumped you . . .


You must be reading to fast or trying to compare the law of the fathers writen in thier book of the law (ccc) I heard it through the grape vine and compare it to the written tradition of God. That not the formula for finding the source of faith Scripture must be compared scripture (faith to faith) amking it as it is written to no effect is not a biblcal teaching .

The word of God not water dwelt in flesh. Not as the flesh of man .God is not a man. The word can create flesh .Let there be clay. . and it was good. But the word is not clay. If he breathes in the the clay spirit of life then clay can move.

If a person has not received a new born again spirt then they simply wil not rise on the last day when all in the wtwniling of a eye receive the propmise of faith (as itis written)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And of course he gives glory to the unsen father . Why wouls anyone bow down to flesh and blood in which Jeus said of his own it profits fron nothing,zero ,zip

Remember as the cheif apostle and corner stone of His bride the church Jesus did not send his own self.

Mark 10:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Good
is resevered for the unsen eternal things of God .Not the temporal i seen "it" will be destroyed .
 

Philip James

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Why wouls anyone bow down to flesh and blood in which Jeus said of his own it profits fron nothing,zero ,zip

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

Seems He said His flesh gives life to the world...

Your denial of Jesus' humanity is noted...

Docetists to the left of me and Arians to the right...

Lord, have mercy!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
 
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Illuminator

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I would offer. God is not a man as us and neither is there any fleshly infallible interpreter (daysman Pope) set between God and man.

Job 9:32-33 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both
That's the third time you have asserted this lie, you are too proud to be corrected.
 
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BreadOfLife

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You must be reading to fast or trying to compare the law of the fathers writen in thier book of the law (ccc) I heard it through the grape vine and compare it to the written tradition of God. That not the formula for finding the source of faith Scripture must be compared scripture (faith to faith) amking it as it is written to no effect is not a biblcal teaching .

The word of God not water dwelt in flesh. Not as the flesh of man .God is not a man. The word can create flesh .Let there be clay. . and it was good. But the word is not clay. If he breathes in the the clay spirit of life then clay can move.

If a person has not received a new born again spirt then they simply wil not rise on the last day when all in the wtwniling of a eye receive the propmise of faith (as itis written)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And of course he gives glory to the unsen father . Why wouls anyone bow down to flesh and blood in which Jeus said of his own it profits fron nothing,zero ,zip

Remember as the cheif apostle and corner stone of His bride the church Jesus did not send his own self.

Mark 10:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Good
is resevered for the unsen eternal things of God .Not the temporal i seen "it" will be destroyed .
WRONG.

I just showed you John 1:1 which states emphatically that the Word (the Son) is GOD - and the Word and became FLESH (John 1:14).
And YOU sit there and deny it.

GOD calls Himself the "Alpha and the Omega" in Rev. 1:8.
Jesus (the Son) ALSO calls Himself the "Alpha and the Omega" in Rev 22:13.

Is one of them LYING??

Rev. 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the LORD God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Rev. 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
 
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Gary Urban

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WRONG.

I just showed you John 1:1 which states emphatically that the Word (the Son) is GOD - and the Word and became FLESH (John 1:14).
And YOU sit there and deny it.

GOD calls Himself the "Alpha and the Omega" in Rev. 1:8.
Jesus (the Son) ALSO calls Himself the "Alpha and the Omega" in Rev 22:13.

Is one of them LYING??

Rev. 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the LORD God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Rev. 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
 

Illuminator

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I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

Seems He said His flesh gives life to the world...

Your denial of Jesus' humanity is noted...

Docetists to the left of me and Arians to the right...
Rb0e34d0dc473656ee54d5791c9dcdea6

good one, PJ
 

Gary Urban

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Unbiblical nonsense.

First of all - the Word was GOD (John 1:1).
The Word (GOD) became flesh (John 1:14).
YOUR rejection of God's word is noted . . .

Secondly -
John 16:12-15

“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.


This correlates DIRECTLY to my response to you in post #164, which apparently stumped you . . .

I think the only one that is stumped are those refuse to believe God those that try and make God a man as us .

It was God working directly in the Son of man to both will and empower him who has no power in his earthen body.

Philipians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

The word of God that worked in the cheif apostle as the Son of man Jesus who came to do the will of the father .The work of two ..

Is who lying ? The father or Son. . or the legion of fathers 3500 and rising that you must call patron saints according to your dayman the Pope. .

What aplies to us applies to our father who works in and with Jesus and us

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Deny one and the person denies the other can't have on without the other.

Nothing about denying a Queen or venerating one. Or that she alone received the fulness of grace and the rest of the planet gets a unknown remnant. Thats simply blasphamy denying the fulness of Christ grace, the price we were bought with.Turning it into a wonderment with no end in sight . . when will the suffering ever end . . . or will it?
 

Illuminator

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I have no objection to referring to Mary as the blessed virgin Mary, because every saint in Christ Jesus presented to the Lord, shall be a blessed and chaste virgin (2 Cor 11:2).
2 Corinthians 11:2 is talking about the glorified Church in heaven. Not all of us are consistently blessed and chaste here on earth. Chaste means fidelity to the Scriptures when you find out what "Daughter of Zion" means. I'd be glad to light up the OT for you. Just ask.
 
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Gary Urban

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That's the third time you have asserted this lie, you are too proud to be corrected.

Which lie is that? God is not a man as us? Job 9:32-33

Seems clear to me?

Job 9:32-33 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Where kings in Isreal an abomination of desolation? If so why?
 

BreadOfLife

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I think the only one that is stumped are those refuse to believe God those that try and make God a man as us .

It was God working directly in the Son of man to both will and empower him who has no power in his earthen body.

Philipians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

The word of God that worked in the cheif apostle as the Son of man Jesus who came to do the will of the father .The work of two ..

Is who lying ? The father or Son. . or the legion of fathers 3500 and rising that you must call patron saints according to your dayman the Pope. .

What aplies to us applies to our father who works in and with Jesus and us

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Deny one and the person denies the other can't have on without the other.

Nothing about denying a Queen or venerating one. Or that she alone received the fulness of grace and the rest of the planet gets a unknown remnant. Thats simply blasphamy denying the fulness of Christ grace, the price we were bought with.Turning it into a wonderment with no end in sight . . when will the suffering ever end . . . or will it?
And that's your FIRST mistake (in RED).
I'm sure God would be FAR ore please if you said "I believe."

It's interesting to note that heresies like YOURS that deny the deity of Christ appeared on the scene rather early - they were exposed one by one for their counterfeit teachings in the Early Church.

You and the rest of your anti-Trinitarian friends here base your rejection of the Trinity on nothing more than a failure to grasp WHAT the Trinity is - even though it has been explained to you repeatedly. Actually - unless you're REALLY dense, it's probably more due to the fact that you simply refuse to believe. Now, you have taken a leap from simple ignorance to open rebellion against God - and that SHOULD terrify you.

So, you continue with your impotent rejections and we continue to hammer you with Scriptural proof after Scriptural proof in the hope that the Holy Spirit will penetrate your spiritual pride . . .
 

Gary Urban

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I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

Seems He said His flesh gives life to the world...

Your denial of Jesus' humanity is noted...

Docetists to the left of me and Arians to the right...

Lord, have mercy!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

Docetists and Arians ?

I am not denying the Son of man's humanity he was human.

Are you denying the Holy Spirit worked in hjesus to both will and empower him to do the will of the father And to drink the blood of mankind that metaphor used in parables. . . the unsen understanding must be sought out . Or men wil get the idea that literal blood without the essence of Spirit life can produce life as in canalblism . Jesus said his own flesh it profits for nothing, zero, nada. And rather that is the the power of the fathers words that brings new spirit life as that which does profit . No spirit, no life.
 

Illuminator

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I think the only one that is stumped are those refuse to believe God those that try and make God a man as us.
The historic Church strongly opposes such a thing.
It was God working directly in the Son of man to both will and empower him who has no power in his earthen body.
Mary can't do anything without God. Really, it's not complex systematic theology. She is a creature like us. She can do NOTHING without God's grace. Interpreting church teaching the way you want it gets tiresome post after post.

Here's a suggestion. In the address bar, or google search, key in a topic or term, followed by ".va" This should take you to the official catechism. When quoting, please provide the pertinent paragraph numbers and a link to the page so we can all enjoy the full context. Scripture references are contained in the footnotes. There is a glossary of abbreviations if you want to go deeper.
 

Gary Urban

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And that's your FIRST mistake (in RED).
I'm sure God would be FAR ore please if you said "I believe."

It's interesting to note that heresies like YOURS that deny the deity of Christ appeared on the scene rather early - they were exposed one by one for their counterfeit teachings in the Early Church.

You and the rest of your anti-Trinitarian friends here base your rejection of the Trinity on nothing more than a failure to grasp WHAT the Trinity is - even though it has been explained to you repeatedly. Actually - unless you're REALLY dense, it's probably more due to the fact that you simply refuse to believe. Now, you have taken a leap from simple ignorance to open rebellion against God - and that SHOULD terrify you.

So, you continue with your impotent rejections and we continue to hammer you with Scriptural proof after Scriptural proof in the hope that the Holy Spirit will penetrate your spiritual pride . . .

Scriptural proof after Scriptural proof. Did you mean sola scriptura to sola scriptura. . . faith to faith?

That’s interesting first you accuse me by saying I am stumpped and say I should use the word believe rather than I think.Then the hammering of this old man begins. .

Just exactly is it that I do not believe? God is not a man but is the creator of man? Does God have a beginning?

Then you say something that dead men said years ago and therefore they cannot be asked anything . We have the same word of God as it is written today just as they did .Earlier heresies as private interpretations opinions does not mean a better interpretation or more accurate . Especially if men are following a law of the fathers (I heard it through the grapevine.) rather than all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

.
 

Gary Urban

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The historic Church strongly opposes such a thing.
Mary can't do anything without God. Really, it's not complex systematic theology. She is a creature like us. She can do NOTHING without God's grace. Interpreting church teaching the way you want it gets tiresome post after post.

Here's a suggestion. In the address bar, or google search, key in a topic or term, followed by ".va" This should take you to the official catechism. When quoting, please provide the pertinent paragraph numbers and a link to the page so we can all enjoy the full context. Scripture references are contained in the footnotes. There is a glossary of abbreviations if you want to go deeper.

Why would I tire of defending the faith of Christ which defends us as the armor of God ?

Again if a person would pursue the idea that our blessed sister in the Lord ,Mary alone received the fulness of grace by which the Lord that bought every believer .and the rest of humnaty a unknown remnant of grace and even after they take thier last breath they must continue to wonder, wonder, wonder with no end of faith in sight .

That sounds like blasphemy and exposes to the Christian world there is litlle or no light of the gospel in Catholisism or any higharchy of men that lord over the understanding of the non-venerable show time watchers

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

How do they deny? By saying they receive a unkown remnant of grace and they better cry out to some unseen queeen again who alone they say received the fullnes . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Scriptural proof after Scriptural proof. Did you mean sola scriptura to sola scriptura. . . faith to faith?

That’s interesting first you accuse me by saying I am stumpped and say I should use the word believe rather than I think.Then the hammering of this old man begins. .

Just exactly is it that I do not believe? God is not a man but is the creator of man? Does God have a beginning?

Then you say something that dead men said years ago and therefore they cannot be asked anything . We have the same word of God as it is written today just as they did .Earlier heresies as private interpretations opinions does not mean a better interpretation or more accurate . Especially if men are following a law of the fathers (I heard it through the grapevine.) rather than all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura).
First of all - Sola Scriptura is a 16th century Protestant invention that is NOT supported by the very Scripture it purports to be our "Sole" Authority.

Secondly, YOU are simply mucking the waters with this argument because you don't have a leg to stand on - Scriptural or otherwise.
That being said - you condemn doctrines of the Church as "heresies of man" because you don't understand WHAT the Church is.
Allow me to educate you . . .

- The Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).

- Jesus said that HE is the Light of the World (John 8:12).
Jesus also said that His Church is the Light of the world (Matt. 5:14).

- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).

- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).

- Jesus told the leaders of His Church that WHATEVER they bound or loosed on earth would ALSO be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).

- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).

- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

- Jesus gave His Church Supreme earthly Authority, that WHATEVER His Church declared on earth will also be declared in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18).

- Jesus said about his Church: “Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME" (Luke 10:16).

In short - the Church is Christ Himself on earth.
When YOU accuse His Church of "heresy" because a man like Charles Taze Russell or some other false prophet told you so - you are condemning Christ Himself.

Good luck with that . . .
 

Illuminator

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Why would I tire of defending the faith of Christ which defends us as the armor of God ?
You are not defending the faith of Christ, you are misrepresenting Catholic teaching. THAT is tiresome.
Again if a person would pursue the idea that our blessed sister in the Lord ,Mary alone received the fulness of grace by which the Lord that bought every believer .and the rest of humnaty a unknown remnant of grace and even after they take thier last breath they must continue to wonder, wonder, wonder with no end of faith in sight.
The Church doesn't teach that.
That sounds like blasphemy and exposes to the Christian world there is litlle or no light of the gospel in Catholisism or any higharchy of men that lord over the understanding of the non-venerable show time watchers
Our priests and bishops don't lord over us, it is their job to to teach and guide. They can only give us what they have received, we don't construct beliefs based on private opinion. Martin Luther invented "sola scriptura", yet he was very devoted to Mary. I believe what has been handed down, and no construction is necessary. You believe whatever you choose.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

How do they deny? By saying they receive a unkown remnant of grace and they better cry out to some unseen queeen again who alone they say received the fullnes . .
More misrepresentations. Jesus redeemed the human race, but redemption is not the same as salvation. You confuse the two.
487 What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.
source

 
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Illuminator

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"...I was shocked. At the time the Virgin Mary played no part in my devotional life. As a good Evangelical boy I had memorized 1 Timothy 2:5, which says, “There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.” By calling Mary the “Mediatrix,” he had confirmed my prejudice that Catholics believe things that contradict the Bible. It also confirmed my suspicion that Catholics gave Mary an equal status with Jesus.

I put this notion firmly to one side and didn’t consider it again until after I had come into the Catholic Church. This postponement was possible because Mary’s role as Co-Redeemer and Mediatrix of grace is not a formally defined dogma of the Catholic Church. It remains a pious opinion—a useful devotional and theological way of meditating on Mary. My attention was drawn back to the question, however, when I was writing Mary: A Catholic/Evangelical Debate with an old friend who had attended Bob Jones University with me.

A Stick to Beat Us With
I understand how Mary’s titles of Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix remain one of the sorest points in Evangelical – Catholic discussions. A Protestant who has heard of these titles will use them as a big stick with which to beat Catholics, and it is important to know how best to engage the discussion.

For genuine dialogue, it is vital to listen to and understand the Evangelical point of view. The sincere, well-read Evangelical objects to exalted devotions and titles for the Mother of God because he thinks they detract from the honor and worship due to Jesus Christ alone. A thoughtful Evangelical does not intentionally despise Mary; he sidelines the Mother of God to defend the proper devotion to her Son.

The place to start in any discussion of Mary as Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix is to affirm that Catholics indeed believe that the death of Jesus Christ is all sufficient for the salvation of our sins. If you can quote an author who is a known devotee of Mary, it packs a stronger punch. “See, here’s someone who promotes Marian devotion,” you say, “He actually wants her to be proclaimed Co-Redemptrix, but insists that Christ’s death is all sufficient.”

For example, a booklet by the California-based Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici Petition Centre that promotes these titles for Mary begins with these words: “The salvation of humanity was accomplished by God’s only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. The Passion and Death of Christ, our sole Redeemer, was not only sufficient but ‘superabundant’ satisfaction for human guilt and the consequent debt of punishment” (A New Marian Dogma? Coredemptrix, Mediatrix of All Graces, Advocate).

The booklet goes on to explain, “But God willed that this work of salvation be accomplished through the collaboration of a woman, while respecting her free will (Gal. 4:4).” This point introduces a good next step in discussing this Catholic belief with an Evangelical.

Will You Cooperate or Not?
Instead of wading into an argument about Mary being Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix, it is useful to discuss the principle and possibility of humans cooperating with God in the work of redemption. Protestants have a deeply ingrained resistance to the idea that we can cooperate with God for our redemption at all. In their desire to maintain the doctrines of sola gratia and sola fide, some of them go to the extremes of believing that we can do nothing at all to cooperate with God in our redemption because to do so would be tantamount to salvation by works.

As a result, most Evangelical belief systems contain a very strong element of Quietism. Quietism is a sort of fatalism: It is that heresy which says you can do absolutely nothing to engage in the work of your salvation. Instead each soul is like a leaf on the tide of God’s almighty Providence. Because of this understanding, it is difficult for many Evangelicals to comprehend the idea that God uses human cooperation to accomplish his will in the world. That human cooperation is actually crucial to the Redemption of the world is not part of their perspective.

Therefore, before talking about Mary’s collaboration with God, it is worth discussing the basic principle that humans can cooperate with God. Most Evangelicals will concede that we do, in fact, need to respond to God’s grace for it to be effective in our lives. Even at the most basic level, Evangelicals admit that a person has to “accept Jesus.” As soon as they do, you can point out that this is a form of cooperation with God. At this point the human will and the divine will are united for the work of salvation.
read more here
 

Gary Urban

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You are not defending the faith of Christ, you are misrepresenting Catholic teaching. THAT is tiresome.
The Church doesn't teach that.
Our priests and bishops don't lord over us, it is their job to to teach and guide. They can only give us what they have received, we don't construct beliefs based on private opinion. Martin Luther invented "sola scriptura", yet he was very devoted to Mary. I believe what has been handed down, and no construction is necessary. You believe whatever you choose.

More misrepresentations. Jesus redeemed the human race, but redemption is not the same as salvation. You confuse the two.
487 What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.
source


I would think it only tiresome to those who follow another written law of men called a law of the fathers(CCC) They tires easly when it comes to comparing the word of God to the word of God .(sola scruiptura) or faith to faith . A law of men revealed ever since the first century reformation. The law of. . . I heard it through the patron saint grape vine. Those kind of fathers that tried to prove all things written in the law and proghets (sola scriptura) is a heresy so they could rather keep; "I heard it through the grape vine law of men" . The 15th century reformation is simply a carbon copy of the first century refomation Paul who formaly was under a law of the fathers (Acts 22) (out of sight out of mind) was doing the murdering of those who they thought were compitition trusting what the eys see and not sola scriptura as it is written . Paul said that by which they call hersey he worshiped the One God unseen. . not a legion of disemboded workers with a famailir spirit as if they were our heavenly father.

Catholics clearly teach that this queen entity they have named Mary alone received the "fullnes of grace" and every other a unknown remnant . . otherwise there would be no need for the "worndering doctrine" called "purgatory."

Believers received the end of their new faith the salvation of thier new born again souls from the first work of God giving us ears to hear his understanding .You could say the beat goes on rather than worshiping the one God as the one father they worshiped many fathers as if they make up our one father .

Acts 24: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Faithless Jews performed it using Abraham to our One Holy Father. Cathiolic simply use Peter. . same do not even think about it but rather moved by the earing of Christ faith simply believe the soal scriptura foundation. . why wrestle against it?

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.