The 'blessed virgin Mary'

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Illuminator

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I would think it only tiresome to those who follow another written law of men called a law of the fathers(CCC)
The CCC is a compendium of official church teaching, not "laws of men". If you quote it, which you never do, please include, at the very least, the paragraph numbers.
They tires easly when it comes to comparing the word of God to the word of God .(sola scruiptura) or faith to faith .
Jesus is the Living Word of God, the Bible is the written word of God, and if you do a Bible search, nowhere is the "word of God" confined to the written word alone.
A law of men revealed ever since the first century reformation.
There is no such thing as "the first century reformation". That is a term you invented.
The law of. . . I heard it through the patron saint grape vine. Those kind of fathers that tried to prove all things written in the law and proghets (sola scriptura) is a heresy so they could rather keep; "I heard it through the grape vine law of men" . The 15th century reformation is simply a carbon copy of the first century refomation Paul who formaly was under a law of the fathers (Acts 22) (out of sight out of mind) was doing the murdering of those who they thought were compitition trusting what the eys see and not sola scriptura as it is written . Paul said that by which they call hersey he worshiped the One God unseen. . not a legion of disemboded workers with a famailir spirit as if they were our heavenly father.
Clearly, you have no clue what Tradition means, so you make up your own definition to make it fit your preconceptions; a strawman fallacy.
Sola scriptura was invented by Martin Luther because he was mentally ill. It should be obvious to anyone counting the number of denominations that sola scriptura is unworkable. You arrogantly reject the accepted writings of the Early Church Fathers because none of them taught your nonsense.

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Gary Urban

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A Stick to Beat Us With
I understand how Mary’s titles of Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix remain one of the sorest points in Evangelical – Catholic discussions. A Protestant who has heard of these titles will use them as a big stick with which to beat Catholics, and it is important to know how best to engage the discussion.

For genuine dialogue, it is vital to listen to and understand the Evangelical point of view. The sincere, well-read Evangelical objects to exalted devotions and titles for the Mother of God because he thinks they detract from the honor and worship due to Jesus Christ alone. A thoughtful Evangelical does not intentionally despise Mary; he sidelines the Mother of God to defend the proper devotion to her Son.

If they don't detract from the honor and worship due to Jesus Christ alone then who do they distract from?

Its not a matter of un-intentionaly despising Mary rather than worshiping. Its there intention not to venerate the flesh of mankind .For what did Mary have that she did not recieved as God worked with her in her like any othe person living in dying flesh and blood . Mary would never say that she did not freely recieve the fulness of Christ grace just like any born again believer . and that others should puff her up above that which is written (sola scriptura) because she is the queen of mercy and angels of mercy are at her commandment .

I would offer as one of the sorest points is Catholics will not look to the foundation of the matter.( 1 Samuel 8) Like David said in the Psalms. If they destroy the foundation of the doctrines of God what could those do that do look to it.

That is where the Bible study must begin if we desre to get to the heart of the word of God .(not the oral traditons of the fathers) the other teaching master.

Atheist Jewish leaders gathered themselves together. They were not called by a God that they had no faith in . same kind of use of a patron saint factory as if things were losed from Rome nad not heaven the unsen place of God's glory. They demanded the pagan form of Government. What you see is what you get out of sight out of mind. no need for a faith as it is written. Our heavenly unseen King of kings and Lord of lords said to Samuel it not you they are rejecting as king but me not seen .God gave over the abomination of desolation Kings in Israel until the time of reformation Using that time period as a parable using the things seen to signify the understanding of faith not seen . Sola scriptura (as it is written) doing its work of restoring the government of peace between the father and the Son Not the flesh of his mother the same kind of desire that had for a fleshly king. why would they reinduce that which the the word of God made to no efct again so men would lok to the unsen eternal and not what the eyes see the temopal

1 Samauel 8: 4-7 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

A litle slower and prayerfully. . . . I would not want you to miss the foundation of the matter. . for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

What do you think, should God have turned them over to do that which they should not of .It lasted until the time of reformation (first century) Should it revert back to Kings in Isreal and we should reject our unseen king of kings Lord of lords from ruling over our new born again souls that will never die ..
 

Illuminator

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If they don't detract from the honor and worship due to Jesus Christ alone then who do they distract from?
True devotion (not worship) to Mary always leads to Jesus, or it is a false devotion.

Its not a matter of un-intentionaly despising Mary rather than worshiping.
You can't stop repeating the same myth. Mary is not worshipped. Hyperdulia is the same kind as dulia, the due and proper honor due from human to human. Latria is worship of God alone. This distinction has been explained to you several times, but you are so grounded in anti-Catholic prejudice, you are incapable of making the distinction, so you come up with the same boring "Mary worship" myth.
Its there intention not to venerate the flesh of mankind.
That's your problem. God was the first to venerate the flesh of Mary with a divine message from an angel. "venerate the flesh of mankind" muddies the waters, you sound like Calvin's heresy of Total Depravity.
For what did Mary have that she did not recieved as God worked with her in her like any othe person living in dying flesh and blood . Mary would never say that she did not freely recieve the fulness of Christ grace just like any born again believer .
The Bible doesn't say any born again believer is Full of Grace. To support your theory, you have to prove that an archangel from heaven appears to each born again believer. Such a position defies common sense.
Luke 1:28 – “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 – also, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person – Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 – Mary’s fiat is “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

I would offer as one of the sorest points is Catholics will not look to the foundation of the matter.( 1 Samuel 8) Like David said in the Psalms. If they destroy the foundation of the doctrines of God what could those do that do look to it.
I like Samuel too.
2 Sam. 6:7 – the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb. (God didn't HAVE TO do it that way, He CHOSE TO)
Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 – Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 – John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 – How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 – Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 – here we see that “brethren” can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

That is where the Bible study must begin if we desre to get to the heart of the word of God .(not the oral traditons of the fathers) the other teaching master.
The early church Christians didn't have Bibles.

Atheist Jewish leaders gathered themselves together. They were not called by a God that they had no faith in . same kind of use of a patron saint factory as if things were losed from Rome nad not heaven the unsen place of God's glory. They demanded the pagan form of Government. What you see is what you get out of sight out of mind. no need for a faith as it is written. Our heavenly unseen King of kings and Lord of lords said to Samuel it not you they are rejecting as king but me not seen .God gave over the abomination of desolation Kings in Israel until the time of reformation Using that time period as a parable using the things seen to signify the understanding of faith not seen .
Equating the Herodian Jews with Catholicism is a big mistake. Ignorant cults and made-in-America cults have been trying that for years with no evidence.

1 Samauel 8: 4-7 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
Giving proper honor to Mary does not mean rejecting the reign of Christ.
Luke 1:46 – Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 – Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary” prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

A litle slower and prayerfully. . . . I would not want you to miss the foundation of the matter. . for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
True devotion to Mary does not reject Christ's reign.

What do you think, should God have turned them over to do that which they should not of .It lasted until the time of reformation (first century) Should it revert back to Kings in Isreal and we should reject our unseen king of kings Lord of lords from ruling over our new born again souls that will never die ..
Establishing the Davidic Kingdom was done by God, not human flesh. Christianity is supposed to fulfil Judaism; you seem to reject all Jewish roots. Again, there is no such thing as a 1st century reformation.
 

Gary Urban

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The CCC is a compendium of official church teaching, not "laws of men". If you quote it, which you never do, please include, at the very least, the paragraph numbers.

Yes they are laws of men called oral traditions not of the DEVINE order (Father and Son) as it is written

Law of the fathers paragraph #80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

Two opposing witnesses as traditions as two different teaching masters.(1) those of men seen and (2) that of God the unseen eternal .

The opposing spirit is demonstrated in Mathew 16:23 And he said to Peter . Get behind me Satan thou are a offence unto me for you seek after the things of men(law of the fathers) rather that the unseen things of God (law of God0 .This is when our brother in Christ Peter fell in false pride thinking he was the key and not the gosel the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against . Our Holy Father the greater witness called it a offence against the gospel the incorruptible word of God’s seed by which all are born again from above

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Jesus is the Living Word of God, the Bible is the written word of God, and if you do a Bible search, nowhere is the "word of God" confined to the written word alone.

You will not find the word of God a tradtition of God if you search out your book of law the CCC .a Tradition of men . Which one teaching master will a person serve. The things of men or that of God not seen?

When approached by the father of lies bringing a vision to the fleshly mind of the Son of man Jesus who as a apotle was sent to do the will of the unseen Holy Father . Our Father gave Jesus the prophet words to rebuke the spirit of erro the god of lying wonders. Three times with three denoting the end of the matter as it is written and again and again as it is written .I would think it doesn’t get any clearer than that. . . Strike three, you’re out of here. The power of the lords rebuke.

Do a law of the fathers search written law (CCC) and apply the same law you have asked me to that of men who are not divine .But live in earthen bodies of death

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Making gods in the likeness of men is not part of the gospel.

The bible in its entirety alone is the word of God. It as the witness of God obviously greater than that of men. The witness of our God who was there working to both will and empower men to do the good pleasure of His will . Jesus the Son of man did it as it is written with delight . .unlike Jonah who was dragged all the way to finish the work that God had started . He is our confidence in that way if he has begun the good work of salvation in us with us he wil finish it till the last day under the Sun . No help from dead fathers called patron saints

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

There is no such thing as "the first century reformation". That is a term you invented.

Clearly, you have no clue what Tradition means, so you make up your own definition to make it fit your preconceptions; a strawman fallacy.

Sola scriptura was invented by Martin Luther because he was mentally ill. It should be obvious to anyone counting the number of denominations that sola scriptura is unworkable. You arrogantly reject the accepted writings of the Early Church Fathers because none of them taught your nonsense.

Does as it is written sound like it comes from one mentaly ill? It makes the devil flee maybe he is mentaly ill ?
I know exactly what tradition mean As it is written. It represents the faith of God it is the restoring work of the gospel. it is not arrogant it does reject the idea that sola scriptura calling it a heresy and we would rather worship the fathers as unto God . Paul declared by that which the law of the fathers called heresy so he serves the God of the fathers. . . not the legion of fathers that you must call patron saints as if the legion (3500 and new ones being recruited ) make up God. One God as one Father not a legion. Sola scriptura was doing it work long before Mr. Lutheran .

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Kings in Israel the abomination of desolation was made to no effect because of the first century reformation. You can pretend the first century reformation has not come just as you can pretend sola scriptura is heresy. But you have no witness other than a law of men that lord it over the understanding of Christ our one teacher in the end murdering the one that do not agree. Out of sight out of mind .

Acts 22: 3-5 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest (pope or daysman) doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

The first century reformation using the temporal things seen to give us the "signified" understanding of God ,Not a understanding of a legion of fathers which was a parable or "figure" for that time period that revealed faithless men refused to believe in our unseen Kings of kings and Lord of lords .

In that way you can ignore it as it is written (sola scriptura) but I am hoping it will not ignore you.

Hebrews 9: 8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
 
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robert derrick

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"The CCC is a compendium of official church teaching."

The CCC is a compendium of official Catholic church teaching.

And if it is not official to someone, then they are as mentally ill as Martin Luther.
 
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robert derrick

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"Clearly, you have no clue what Tradition means."

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers."
(I Peter 1)

Whether the traditions of the fathers of the Jews or those of fathers of the Christians, they always frustrate the worship and will of God. (Matthew 15)

The Jews' religion was made up out of the Old Covenant, when they rejected Jesus as Mediator, and the Christians' religion is made up out of the New Covenant, when they reject Jesus as the Only Mediator.
 
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robert derrick

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"True devotion (not worship) to Mary always leads to Jesus"

Not worship, just 'devotion'. Like not obedience, just 'total agreement'.

Mary leads to Jesus. Got to go thru the Mother to get to the Son to come to the Father...
 

Gary Urban

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True devotion (not worship) to Mary always leads to Jesus, or it is a false devotion.

True devotion is to worship .No limbo inbetween. From my experience the unsen Holy Father does not receive worship as part of their format .He is made to no effect by the legion of patrons saints that you must venerate.

To venerate is to hallow. The bible defines its own words and how they are used throughout the word of God . You can change the meaning of a word by offering another as a law of your fathers but that does not change the number of mediators by which we can lok to the unseen .. One mediator between God and man Christ, not a legion of fathers called “patron saints” A phrase not found in the Bible

The Holy Spirit of God is alone the unseen power of faith a labor of His love. .Again it does not matter which word a person uses to usurp the one manner by which we can be heard on high.We pray one manner. Our father in heaven. Not a legion of fathers.

The teaching in Mathew 6 is against the law of the fathers as oral traditions of men it does not support a teaching master made up of many disembodied workers with a familiar spirit. Those crying out over and over with what they call rosary bead work. Saying blessed be the queen of heaven Mary have mercy on us in our hour of need. . over and over.

Our Father knows what we need before we ask. .His Spirit that works in born again believers moves us to do the desire of our new hearts as he works with us. Its not the repetition that is vain we are to cry out over and over as he strengthens us.

You are simply following a law of men as a teaching authority. No man can serve two teaching masters as one Good God not seen

Mathew 6:4-9 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
 

robert derrick

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"Sola scriptura was invented by Martin Luther because he was mentally ill. sola scriptura is unworkable."

Sola Scriptura is a term created by Catholics to demean faithfulness to Scripture only as pertaining to the things of God that are true. Scripture first reference to this was of the Bereans. (Acts 17) And it is unworkable for them that believe extra-Biblical writing and human commentary as Scripture itself.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1)

The first rule of ministry is not to minister as Scripture the things of your own mind about Scripture. (Numbers 16)
 

robert derrick

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"A thoughtful Evangelical does not intentionally despise Mary."

We do not despise Mary. We reject the deification and adulation of 'Mother Mary' beside the Lord Jesus. Which the true Mary also rejects in heaven, and would have on earth.

The Mary idolizers follow a 'Mary' that never existed. Even as the Jehovah idolizers follow a 'Jehovah' that is not true.
 

robert derrick

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"The early church Christians didn't have Bibles."

No they had access to written manuscripts of the Old Testament, as well as the traditions of the rabbinical writers. The Scriptures of the Old Covenant are what Jesus quoted time and again, and incurred the wrath of men who place the rabbinical traditions alongside and finally above the Scriptures.

The same is true today. We have the Scriptures of the New Covenant and of the traditions of the writings of the fathers. And to reject the writings of Mary as Mother of God incurs the wrath of them that hold to the traditions alongside and finally above the Scriptures.

The same error keeps getting repeated by people who are not satisfied with the Scriptures only, and want other things brought in to wet their appetite for new things and new knowledge (Acts 17) The simplicity of Christ is just too simple and boring for them. They prefer myths and complex dealings in the Greek.

Sola Scriptura is just too boring. It's only for hayseeds that can't really grasp the complexities and nuances of verbal gymnastics by them of higher knowledge and understanding.

"That ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written." (1 Cor 4)

"We wrestle against spiritual wickedness in high places."
(Eph 6)
 

robert derrick

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"Martin Luther was mentally ill for believing Scripture only and not also accepting the writings of the 'fathers' as Scripture also..."

The main difference between 'Sola Scriptura' believers and 'extra-biblical' writers, is that the latter despise you as mentally ill for not believing their writings as Scripture, while the former simply reject you as heretics for not believing Scripture only.
 

Philip James

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"True devotion (not worship) to Mary always leads to Jesus"

Not worship, just 'devotion'. Like not obedience, just 'total agreement'.

Mary leads to Jesus. Got to go thru the Mother to get to the Son to come to the Father...


Hello robert,

hmmm, i wouldn't put it that way at all...

More like,when one receives Jesus, they get Mary as bonus! He gives her to us at the foot of the cross:

Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.


Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
 
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Illuminator

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Yes they are laws of men called oral traditions not of the DEVINE order (Father and Son) as it is written
Tradition in the Bible (particularly for St. Paul) is not an individualistic thing, kept by each person as an esoteric “secret,” as the gnostic heretics would have it. No, it is obviously a corporately held entity. It is held in common by the Church, as the collectivity of Christians. And as this deposit of faith was one unified teaching, there necessarily had to be one Church to preserve and promulgate it.
The clarity of Scripture and the role of the Church -

Law of the fathers paragraph #80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

Two opposing witnesses as traditions as two different teaching masters.(1) those of men seen and (2) that of God the unseen eternal .
I don't know how you get "two opposing witnesses" from that. It's not there.
76 In keeping with the Lord's command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
- orally "by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit";33
- in writing "by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing".34

. . . continued in apostolic succession

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father's self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. and the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39
 

robert derrick

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Hello robert,

hmmm, i wouldn't put it that way at all...

More like,when one receives Jesus, they get Mary as bonus! He gives her to us at the foot of the cross:

Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.


Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
Look, you are sweet guy and a real gruff of a man, but getting a 'bonus' with Jesus...oh man. You are a cute one, that's for sure.

Sounds like Bill campaigning with Hillary being a 'bonus' to the Presidency.

"If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book..." (Rev 22)

That includes 'bonuses'.

Look, this may help you sincerely in the faith: forget about a 'Mother Mary', that you never knew and still do not know, and with the faith of Jesus adore, honor, love, and adulate your own dear mother, whether living or past. That way you get a real blessing from God.

"Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee." (Exodus 20)
 

Illuminator

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TRADITION is not a dirty word.
Many Protestants read the accounts of Jesus’ conflicts with the Pharisees and get the idea that He was utterly opposed to all tradition whatsoever. This is false. A close reading of passages such as Matthew 15:3-9 and Mark 7: 8-13 will reveal that He only condemned corrupt traditions of men, not tradition per se. He uses qualifying phrases like “your tradition,” “commandments of men,” “tradition of men,” as opposed to “the commandment of God.” St. Paul draws precisely the same contrast in Colossians 2:8: “See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

The New Testament explicitly teaches that traditions can be either good (from God) or bad (from men, when against God’s true traditions). Corrupt pharisaic teachings were a bad tradition (but many of their legitimate teachings were recognized by Jesus; see, e.g., Matt 23:3). The spoken gospel and the apostolic writings which eventually were formulated as Holy Scripture (authoritatively recognized by the Church in 397 ad at the Council of Carthage) were altogether good: the authentic Christian tradition as revealed by the incarnate God to the Apostles.

The Greek word for “tradition” in the New Testament is paradosis. It occurs in Colossians 2:8 and in the following three passages:

1 Corinthians 11:2 (RSV) Maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (NRSV, NEB, REB, NKJV, NASB all use “tradition"

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

Note that St. Paul draws no qualitative distinction between written and oral tradition. He doesn’t regard oral Christian tradition as bad and undesirable. Rather, this false belief is, ironically, itself an unbiblical “tradition of men.”

When the first Christians went out and preached the Good News of Jesus Christ after Pentecost, this was an oral tradition proclaimed by “word of mouth.” Some of it got recorded in the Bible (e.g., in Acts 2) but most did not, and could not (see John 20:30; John 21:25). It was primarily this oral Christian tradition that turned the world upside down, not the text of the New Testament (many, if not most, people couldn’t read then anyway). Accordingly, when the phrases “word of God” or “word of the Lord” occur in Acts and the epistles, they almost always refer to oral preaching, not to the written word of the Bible. A perusal of the context in each case will make this abundantly clear.

Furthermore, the related Greek words paradidomi and paralambano are usually rendered “delivered” and “received” respectively. St. Paul in particular repeatedly refers to this handing over of the Christian tradition:

1 Corinthians 15:1-3 Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, [2] by which you are saved, if you hold it fast — unless you believed in vain. [3] For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

Jude 3 Contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (cf. Lk 1:1-2; Rom 6:17; 1 Cor 11:23; Gal 1:9, 12; 2 Pet 2:21)

Far from distinguishing tradition from the gospel, as evangelicals often contend, the Bible equates tradition with the gospel and other terms such as “word of God,” “doctrine,” “holy commandment,” “faith,” and “things believed among us.” All are “delivered” and “received”:

1) Traditions “delivered” (1 Cor 11:2), “taught … by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thes 2:15), and “received” (2 Thes 3:6).

2) The Gospel “preached” and “received” (1 Cor 15:1-2; Gal 1:9,12; 1 Thes 2:9).

3) Word of God “heard” and “received” (Acts 8:14; 1 Thes 2:13).

4) Doctrine “delivered” (Rom 6:17; cf. Acts 2:42).

5) Holy Commandment “delivered” (2 Pet 2:21; cf. Matt 15:3-9; Mk 7:8-13).

6) The Faith “delivered” (Jude 3).

7) “Things which have been accomplished among us” were “delivered” (Lk 1:1-2).

Clearly, all these concepts are synonymous in Scripture, and all are predominantly oral. In St. Paul’s writing alone we find four of these expressions used interchangeably. And in just the two Thessalonian epistles, “gospel,” “word of God,” and “tradition” are regarded as referring to the same thing. Thus, we must unavoidably conclude that “tradition” is not a dirty word in the Bible. Or, if one insists on maintaining that it is, then “gospel” and “word of God” are also bad words! Scripture allows no other conclusion: the exegetical evidence is simply too plain.

To conclude our biblical survey, we again cite St. Paul and his stress on the central importance of oral tradition:

2 Timothy 1:13-14 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; [14] guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

2 Timothy 2:2 And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

St. Paul is here urging Timothy not only to “follow the pattern” of his oral teaching “heard from me,” but to also pass it on to others. Thus we find a clear picture of some sort of authentic historical continuity of Christian doctrine. This is precisely what the Catholic Church calls tradition, or, when emphasizing the teaching authority of bishops in the Church, “apostolic succession.” The phrase “deposit of faith” is also used when describing the original gospel teaching as handed over or delivered to the apostles (see, e.g., Acts 2:42; Jude 3).

divinerev.jpg

That is the BICLICAL rule of faith.
 

Illuminator

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The opposing spirit is demonstrated in Mathew 16:23 And he said to Peter . Get behind me Satan thou are a offence unto me for you seek after the things of men(law of the fathers) rather that the unseen things of God (law of God0 .This is when our brother in Christ Peter fell in false pride thinking he was the key and not the gosel the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against . Our Holy Father the greater witness called it a offence against the gospel the incorruptible word of God’s seed by which all are born again from above
Peter had not yet received the keys at this time, and Jesus scolded him for his lack of understanding, not his teaching. What does Jesus do next? He goes on to teach redemptive suffering, a concept that is absent in all of Protestantism.
Matt. 10:38 – Jesus said, “he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” Jesus defines discipleship as one’s willingness to suffer with Him. Being a disciple of Jesus not only means having faith in Him, but offering our sufferings to the Father as He did.

Matt. 16:24; Mark 8:34 – Jesus said, “if any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Jesus wants us to empty ourselves so that God can fill us. When we suffer, we can choose to seek consolation in God and become closer to Jesus.
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You will not find the word of God a tradtition of God if you search out your book of law the CCC .a Tradition of men . Which one teaching master will a person serve. The things of men or that of God not seen?
Tradition is not a dirty word, see above. You are rigidly fixed on a false definition of Tradition.
The bible in its entirety alone is the word of God.
The Bible doesn't teach that ANYWHERE. "Word of God" is never used to mean the written word alone. It appears 184 times in the ESV.
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Word of God
"The bible in its entirety alone is the word of God" is not in the Bible. It's a man made tradition. For starters, it's impossible to work.
 

robert derrick

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"Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee." (Exodus 20)

Honor THY mother, not someone else's, not even Jesus', whom Ye never knew nor know. You cannot properly honor two mothers no more than you can love two masters!

Honoring and devoting yourself to another 'Mother' called 'Mary' is exactly the condemnation of Scripture spoken by Jesus against traditions that transgress the commandment of God.

"But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free." (Matthew 15)

By honoring 'Mother Mary', you cannot also honor thy own mother as you ought according to the commandment of God!

Finally the breakthrough we've been looking for!

I would NEVER go to my dear mother who raised me and loved me to this very day, and start telling her about another 'Mother' of mine as a Christian, that I must not only honor and devote myself to, but even more so than her, because she is just another schlub mother on earth and not near as blessed and full of grace and virginity and motherhood and essentialness to me....

This is where the 'Mary' devotion dives into cultism: Cults divide you from your mother, father, family, friends, etc... that they may have isolated dominion over you, even as their traditions separate you from Scripture and cause division in the body of Christ. (1 Cor 3)

You 'Mother Mary' devotees: you dishonor your mother that bore you on earth. You try to divide your honor and love and devotion due to thy mother only, in favor of a mystical 'Mother' that doesn't even exist, except in the spiritual high places of the air.
 

Philip James

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"Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee." (Exodus 20)

Honor THY mother, not someone else's, not even Jesus', whom Ye never knew nor know. You cannot properly honor two mothers no more than you can love two masters!

Honoring and devoting yourself to another 'Mother' called 'Mary' is exactly the condemnation of Scripture spoken by Jesus against traditions that transgress the commandment of God.

"But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free." (Matthew 15)

By honoring 'Mother Mary', you cannot also honor thy own mother as you ought according to the commandment of God!

Finally the breakthrough we've been looking for!

I would NEVER go to my dear mother who raised me and loved me to this very day, and start telling her about another 'Mother' of mine as a Christian, that I must not only honor and devote myself to, but even more so than her, because she is just another schlub mother on earth and not near as blessed and full of grace and virginity and motherhood and essentialness to me....

This is where the 'Mary' devotion dives into cultism: Cults divide you from your mother, father, family, friends, etc... that they may have isolated dominion over you, even as their traditions separate you from Scripture and cause division in the body of Christ. (1 Cor 3)

You 'Mother Mary' devotees: you dishonor your mother that bore you on earth. You try to divide your honor and love and devotion due to thy mother only, in favor of a mystical 'Mother' that doesn't even exist, except in the spiritual high places of the air.

Well one thing seems certain; you dont know Mary, or her children.

But you, Lord, are a merciful and gracious God, slow to anger, most loving and true.

Turn to me, have pity on me; give your strength to your servant; save this child of your handmaid.


Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
 
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