The Book of Revelation, Understood?

[101G]

Revelation 4:2 "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Again John is having an out of body experience, and he is given a visions of God, the Lord Jesus. A throne was “SET”, here set means prearranged, establish, or authorize. Lets see this in scripture. 1 Kings 9:5 "Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel”. now Isaiah 9:7 "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this”. Psalms 89:2-4 "For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens. 3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.” now the question is, “Who is the SEED of David that sits on the throne. Scripture, Psalms 132:11 "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne”. the LORD said that he (I) will sit upon thy throne.

A seed is an OFFSPRING. Let’s see this offspring. Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star”. without any doubt the one who sits on the throne is the Lord Jesus, the SON, in similitude of a man. supportive scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men". Again this fulfills Psalms 110, God sits as a man on the throne. and the word for offspring is,
G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin. {abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
the KJV can translate this word as: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
IMPORTANT: please take note of this definition. It will be needed for the remainder of the book.
Here is what to take notice of. G1085 γένος genos can also be translated as “diversity” see above. And diversity is best describe in the Greek word G243 allos, "ANOTHER" of Onesef just as the term Adam, in reference to Eve ANOTHER of the same one. This is what the Lord Jesus is, the “ANOTHER” numerically of God himself in flesh. Notice “ numerically” of God himself. Not a separate person, but the same one person “ numerically” shared of himself in another nature, here in chapter 4 glorified, having all power "GIVEN", or inherited by him. hence the term, “the beginning of the creation of God”, or the NEW MAN.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

I would like to point out something about the throne here. there is only ONE throne and only one Person on the Throne. contrary to popular belief there is no throne NEXT to the ONE here in heaven. so this pharse, "sitting at the right hand of God", only signify that he is in all power meaning A. G1411, dunamis and B. G1849, exousia.

so there is no one else sitting next to the Lord on a throne.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Might as well get one more in before it gets too late.

Revelation 4:3 "And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
In chapter 1 we didn’t see his face, now we do. He is like a jasper and a sardine stone. here, these stones are in reference to their brightness. For he is the “bright” and morning star. these stones represents a crystalline brightness meaning a glory, here brighter than the sun in the sky. So these stones are used to portray something of God’s eternal glory, awesome holiness, and majesty. Jasper was a clear, crystal-like gem, a translucent rock. The jasper gem that John saw was evidently a diamond, not what we identify as a jasper today. It portrays the purity and brilliance of God’s holiness. but we can get a better description from the gospels in two accounts. Let’s see his brightness. Matthew 17:2 "And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light”. and I also said that this was his glory. Let’s see where he gets his glory from. John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”. and this glory is clearly stated as to what and who it is, scripture. 1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen”. A sardius stone was blood red, portraying God’s wrath and justice, but it would also look at His redemptive work of love and grace in the person of the Lamb of God who came to take away the sin of the world through His death on the cross, (blood), red (sardius ), this is JESUS the Christ on the throne. the rainbow represent the reminder of a covenant of peace and grace for his people, Jer 31:31- and the destruction of the wicked.

Conclusion so far: it is the Lord Jesus who sits on the throne in heaven in his diversified state of flesh and bones. Not as Spirit, but as the equal share of himself dwelling in flesh. Supportive scripture, Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”. in heaven he function as high priest and intercessor for his children, our advocate and mediator of the new covenant.

Revelation Time: knowing that it is the Lord Jesus who sits, what do this symbolize? Answer, as high priest, sitting, it symbolize that his work is finish, (at the cross, his vengeance on sin, (Isaiah 35:4).

we’re now in a (GRACE period, the church age). Scripture, John 4:34 "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work”. John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost”. let’s see his high priest establishment. Psalms 110:4 "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek”.

Hebrews 6:20 "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec”.

but is this high priest in heaven? Hebrews 4:14 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession”. ok, has he sat down? Hebrews 8:1 "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens”. the right hand indicate “Authority”, and the right “ARM” indicate “strength” so without any doubt it is the Lord Jesus who sits on the throne in heaven.

PICJAG.

 

[Jay Ross]

101G said: ↑
another question, did not the Lord Jesus resurrected according to chapter 5, which is before the Millennium Age.

thanks for the reply, but no need to examine the word prevail as pointing to his resurrection, here it is. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth".
the Lamb is standing as it had been slain. a slain lamb now standing is a "resurrected" one. and Jesus was slain now risen. so that verse is clear indicating of his resurrection.

A vision does not need to be chronological ordered in its receiving. Verse five is talking about Christ prevailing over the kings of the earth and as such worthy to take the scroll. Whereas in verse six, it paints another picture to remove any doubt about who is worthy to take the scroll, by referring to the person who had previously been slain. To milk the images as you are suggesting, IMHO tends to distort what is being presented. The two witnesses to Christ being worthy to take the scroll is what we should be considering. When Christ takes the scroll is a secondary consideration as the future can point backwards to confirm the accuracy of the Word of God. In Revelation 4:5-6 I would suggest that this is the case.

101G said: ↑
another question here, did the Lord receive the KINGDOM before he died on the cross or after?

.

AFTER I agree, scripture, Hebrews 4:14 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession". he passed into the heavens "AFTER" his resurrection. so the events in chapter 5 happen before chapter 4. is this correct.

The simple answer is that that would be impossible according to what is written in both of these chapters.

Shalom

 

[101G]

A vision does not need to be chronological ordered in its receiving. Verse five is talking about Christ prevailing over the kings of the earth and as such worthy to take the scroll. Whereas in verse six, it paints another picture to remove any doubt about who is worthy to take the scroll, by referring to the person who had previously been slain. To milk the images as you are suggesting, IMHO tends to distort what is being presented. The two witnesses to Christ being worthy to take the scroll is what we should be considering. When Christ takes the scroll is a secondary consideration as the future can point backwards to confirm the accuracy of the Word of God. In Revelation 4:5-6 I would suggest that this is the case.

First thanks for the reply, second, Milking the scriptures? ...... No, but revealing them. question, again, is the LAMB who is standing is this the Lamb of God? yes or no.

you said, "The two witnesses to Christ being worthy to take the scroll is what we should be considering. When Christ takes the scroll is a secondary consideration as the future can point backwards to confirm the accuracy of the Word of God".
so you're suggestion that Christ took the scroll, right. while you're at it please tell me how the persons on the throne recieve "POWER", if it's not the christ who sits on the throne. and who is it that recieved, or was given "POWER"?. Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


not impossable for God but for men.

thanks in advance.


PICJAG.

 

[Enoch111]

What I mean is, why is Jesus only getting to heaven decades after John watched him ascend in Acts 1?

You are misunderstanding the narrative. John's vision is in Heaven and Christ is already there. But the scroll with the seven seals had not yet been opened. So now it is being opened (as seen in Revelation).

 

[Jay Ross]

First thanks for the reply, second, Milking the scriptures? ...... No, but revealing them. question, again, is the LAMB who is standing is this the Lamb of God? yes or no.

you said, "The two witnesses to Christ being worthy to take the scroll is what we should be considering. When Christ takes the scroll is a secondary consideration as the future can point backwards to confirm the accuracy of the Word of God".
so you're suggestion that Christ took the scroll, right. while you're at it please tell me how the persons on the throne recieve "POWER", if it's not the christ who sits on the throne. and who is it that recieved, or was given "POWER"?. Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


not impossable for God but for men.

thanks in advance.


PICJAG.

I am finding that you are confusing me with your question as it does not make logical sense.

Revelation 5:1-7: - 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?" 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
​

Now let me ask you a question, who is it that is sitting on the throne in verse 1 and verse 7 above.
Also, who is it sitting on the throne in chapter 4.

Also in chapter 5 are we told that Christ is sitting?

Shalom

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:

Revelation 21:24-26 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. [25] And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. [26] And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

for “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and Honour and power”

 

[Davy]

Does this thread mean I get to write my own commentary version of our Lord Jesus' Book of Revelation? There's obviously a lot missing in the explanations given here so far by others.

 

[101G]

I am finding that you are confusing me with your question as it does not make logical sense.

Revelation 5:1-7: - 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?" 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
​

Now let me ask you a question, who is it that is sitting on the throne in verse 1 and verse 7 above.
Also, who is it sitting on the throne in chapter 4.

Also in chapter 5 are we told that Christ is sitting?

Shalom

GINOLJC, to all.
Correct, the Lord Jesus who is called Christ sits on the Throne. he sits as A. King and B. as High Priest.
and he has "ALL POWER", both in heaven and earth.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Revelation 21:24-26 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. [25] And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. [26] And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

for “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and Honour and power”

this is correct VJ. the Lord Jesus rules from heaven and on earth on this subjects. and yes, he recieved power by inheritance. supportive scripture, Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth".

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

@Jay Ross and @marks, and anyone else who may believe the same way, (no put down, of either you or me, just discussing). I see the sticking point in chapter 4 & 5 is this, "Who sits on the Throne". this is critical in understanding the chronological events in chapter 4 or chapter 5.

we will lay out our evidence for you to consider:

evidence #1. he who sits on the throne is the Lord Jesus because "All Power was GIVEN unto him, scripture, Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created". a few things to point out. here the title "O" Lord is used indicating the definite article. one poster said that "LORD and Lord can be interchangeable, if so then the so called person(s) of God then cannot be distinct then. second, here in this verse, the distinction is made when it said that the one who sits on the throne "recieved" power. ok if this is the Father who recieved "power", as many has said, then please post book chapter and verse, of the name of the person who gave the ALMIGHTY ONE "power?". so in reality how can the ALMIGHTY ONE, hence his title ALL-Mighty, recieve power when he suppose to have it all in the first place. just a simple question.

evidence #2. Many of christian say it was the Lord Jesus who "CREATED" all thing through his Father, God. mind you through.... now, if one said that before, how come one now abandon that belief ?, for the scripture clearly say, "who created all things". do one not say Jesus created all thing through his Father? well the one who created all thing is sitting on the throne. how come now one say no, it's not Jesus who sits on the throne. when in fact many have said Jesus made/created all thing, but now they deny that statement, because they believe that's it's the Father who sits on the throne. that's what the apostle James calls a double tongue.

evidence #3. in chapter 5 the Lord Jesus is identified as the Lion of Judah, the ROOT of David, but was it not the Lamb that stood? is not the Lord Jesus the Lamb "OF" God?, scripture, John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". well this Lamb..... "of", "of", God has blood. for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. blood cannot enter into heaven. so it is the LAMB that stands, or is risen. not the Lamb of God. it is the ROOT who stands, not the offspring who stands.

evidence #4. if this is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus the Christ here in chapter 5, (which it is), then how can he be given all power before he was resurrected? it was not untill he rose that he was given all power.

we need to sort this out in order to be correct in our doctrine and have the events correct.

now if anyone have evidence by the scriptures that states that it is the one whom many calls Father that sits on the throne here in chapter 4 and 5 please post it.

thanks in advance.

PICJAG.

 

[marks]

You are misunderstanding the narrative. John's vision is in Heaven and Christ is already there. But the scroll with the seven seals had not yet been opened. So now it is being opened (as seen in Revelation).

Enoch, with all due respect, I haven't even begun to discuss what I think the narrative actually is. There are many different ways of looking at this book, and I'm looking at some of those ways.

 

[marks]

The Order of Events in Revelation

What does it do to our eschatology if we see the events of the Revelation sequentially?

Are there paranthetical portions, and how do we know them? Are there events told out of sequence, and how do we know them?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Does this thread mean I get to write my own commentary version of our Lord Jesus' Book of Revelation? There's obviously a lot missing in the explanations given here so far by others.

Yes, that's exactly what it means!

 

[marks]

and @marks, and anyone else who may believe the same way, (no put down, of either you or me, just discussing). I see the sticking point in chapter 4 & 5 is this, "Who sits on the Throne". this is critical in understanding the chronological events in chapter 4 or chapter 5.

Yeah, it's going to be different. But I'm not into a Trinity debate. And I'm not willing to mix and match passages which are laid out with their own sequencing.

Take chapters 4 and 5.

You want to put 5 before 4 because you believe the same one is on the throne as approaches the throne.

Yet 4 describes the throne the lamb approaches.

I think I may add thoughts here and there, but for the most part I think I'm going to leave you to it.

I have a much more straighforward approach that I don't think is going to fit well.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Order of Events in Revelation

What does it do to our eschatology if we see the events of the Revelation sequentially?

Are there paranthetical portions, and how do we know them? Are there events told out of sequence, and how do we know them?

Much love!

Revelation is prophecy. We can try to jam it all sequentially, but the prophesying in the OT went forward and back. And some of it had gaps of time that were absolutely not apparent to the reader. For instance, where Jesus read from Isaiah and where He stopped. There's no reason to believe prophecy has changed in that.

I'm sure they used to argue about where Jesus would come from way back then. If they were on an internet forum, some would have argued He must come from Egypt. Others would have said, no dummy, that's not a verse about Messiah, He most definitely has to come from Nazareth! Others would say, you both are wrong, He has to come from Bethlehem! He came from all 3 places at different times.

So where will Jesus come from? From Bozrah with robes stained red? In the air where we will meet Him? Or, only when every eye will see Him, after the resurrection of the living and the dead? Or, will He once again come from all 3 places at different times?

 

[101G]

Yeah, it's going to be different. But I'm not into a Trinity debate. And I'm not willing to mix and match passages which are laid out with their own sequencing.

Take chapters 4 and 5.

You want to put 5 before 4 because you believe the same one is on the throne as approaches the throne.

Yet 4 describes the throne the lamb approaches.

I think I may add thoughts here and there, but for the most part I think I'm going to leave you to it.

I have a much more straighforward approach that I don't think is going to fit well.

Much love!

this is what discussing the scriptures is all about, not to see who's right or wrong, I don't know how many times i must repeat that. what you think on the scriptures can be of a value to all. their is nothing wrong in discussing scripture, I could be in error, but it must be pointed out to me. that's why I use scriptures all the time, to see if I'm in error. and if so I need correction. not a looss but a gain of the truth.

well if you want to leave it to me, why engage at all?. now you said, you have a much more straighforward approach, ok, good then post it. it make no difference what other think, it what God sees.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

Maybe someone might get something out of these posting.

Revelation 4:4 "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold”.
First, I don’t know who the actual elder are here. I can only speculate here. These 24 elders are symbolic of the priestly order that David establish in 1 Chronicles 24. twelve order for the governors of the sanctuary, and twelve ord for the governors of the house of God, as 1 Chronicles 24:5 states. Meaning, the governorship of the sanctuary; or of the holy things, or who presided in things ecclesiastical. and the governorship of the house of God: or rather governorship of God, appointed by him as judges in civil things. Here’s why I speculate on this, we know that there are Priest of the sanctuary, but of civil things also, as in the The parable of the talents in Matthews chapter 25, and Luke 19. in both account servants was put in charge of civil affairs. As was with Daniel in the OT, who was in civil Government also. But this order, God establish the priestly order, scripture, Psalms 110:4 "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek". As to who they are, as said I don’t know, but one thing we can be sure of is that they are in service to the Lord. now one thought, (only a thought) as to who half of them are, scripture, .Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”. don’t add or take anything away from the word of God, Since God did not give their names neither will I. only this will I say about these 24 elders. Being around the throne and it’s 24 of them, 24 to me represent as with the priest and civil duties, in constant service 24 7, meaning around the clock 24 hours. to me that indicate, or means night and day service to the Lord. Many priest and prophets was in service unto the Lord day and night, example, Luke 2:36 & 37 "And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37 "And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day”. as in 2 Timothy 1:3, or Joshua 1:8, just for examples. so we can see that there was some in service, in the natural, unto the Lord both night and day. So my conclusion to the 24 elders are that they, (whoever they are), are in service to the Lord Night and day. these elders was dedicated unto the Lord and sanctified. How do we say that they was dedicated unto the Lord and sanctified. Because they wore “white raiment”, and they all had crowns of gold. Meaning they was OVERCOMERS, just as the Lord Jesus is the first OVERCOMER. One other thing to consider about the 24 elders, scripture, Revelation 1:5 & 6 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, verse 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen”. here again again are the terms, kings, govern civil matters, and and Priests govern ecclesiastical matters. The Government shall be upon his shoulders, see Isaiah 9:6.

Conclusion: my thoughts on this verse lead me to 1 Chronicles 24 and Isaiah 9:6. the GOVERNMENT of both worlds are under God, the Lord Jesus control. elders in charge or in service to the Lord in both Priestly/ecclesiastical matters twenty four hours a day, and night. and kings in service to the Lord in civil matters. JESUS rules in both worlds of Governments.

PICJAG.

 

[Davy]

Yes, that's exactly what it means!

I have this to say then...

Our Lord Jesus' Book of Revelation is given to His Church. It was given to reveal the signs of the very end of this world leading up to His 2nd coming.

Our Lord covered 7 main signs of the end in Revelation, and they are the signs He first gave in His Olivet discourse in the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 chapters. The signs given in the Seals of Revelation 6 parallel the signs He gave while upon the Mount of Olives. In Revelation, these 7 signs are shown with 3 different parallels. Without understanding this point, the believer will continue to go around in circles with trying to understand our Lord Jesus' Revelation, and will be subject to the many wavering doctrines of men.

This means we cannot treat the signs in Revelation as happening in the exact order they are written, i.e., like the Seals happen, then the Trumpets, then the Vials, in that order. Jesus' 2nd coming is shown on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial, and that reveals a parallel structure of the order of events.